I will never understand people getting pissy over non-lgbt people being happy for what we have now and celebrating with us. This article is crap on a stick.
I'm always wary of that mentality, because the rationale sounds a lot like the gatekeeping arguments I've heard in Latin and transfer circles.
I feel like there's a difference between having non-lgbt people come celebrate with us, and having them invade our spaces. Of course the line between the two can be tricky and I think this guy did a really poor job of trying to parse that out.
The most obvious example would be the difference between when I bring a straight friend or two to a gay club to have a nice evening together, and when a bachelorette party invades and tries to take the place over.
+4
Options
KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
Yeah I don't think the worry/feeling of being crowded out of a minority centric space is a particularly wild idea
But for a big street party like pink saturday I'm not sure what there really is to be done about that? Like it's a public event and as society becomes more accepting of LGBT people it's naturally going to get bigger
That article isn't super great but the concern it brings up is definitely a real one and it shows up in more ways than just those darn straight kids totally ruining our parties or whatever
+1
Options
BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
I'm still not sure how you determine the percentage of gay/straight/everything else people at a pride parade.
I will never understand people getting pissy over non-lgbt people being happy for what we have now and celebrating with us. This article is crap on a stick.
That's not the problem and the article doesn't say it is. It's pointing out that straight people aren't celebrating with us/for us/anything. Pride's becoming just another excuse to get drunk and party. The purpose of the event means jack shit to them, much like St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo, etc.
And that's completely untrue and, what's more, really shitty to assume about them.
I understand the point that article is trying to make, that a celebration to recognize our own community has increasingly become a drinking and party excuse for those who don't really care about the movement. It's just one example of how Pride has lost a lot of its political and civil rights roots, and truth be told a lot of that is on LGBT people ourselves.
At the same time, I'm incredibly irritated by the assumptions the author makes about others' sexual orientations. You should never assume to know someone's sexuality, and I'd expect a queer person to avoid doing that at Pride of all places. But then again, I've been assumed to be straight while in LGBT spaces so many times it's become exhausting, so I guess I shouldn't.
I understand the point that article is trying to make, that a celebration to recognize our own community has increasingly become a drinking and party excuse for those who don't really care about the movement. It's just one example of how Pride has lost a lot of its political and civil rights roots, and truth be told a lot of that is on LGBT people ourselves.
I am 100% ok with a bunch of straight people being comfortable enough with a Pride Festival that they have no problem attending just to have fun. It wasn't that long ago when they NEVER would have done that and it's an amazing thing to see now.
How about we focus instead on getting the fundamentalist jerks with huge signs reading FAG SIN and HOMOS IN HELL and etc etc that are all over the Pride festivals every year instead of something that literally poses zero threat to us?
I think the article has a valid point about the co-opting of a celebration of a repressed minority (or minorities, really) by the establishment, but the means by which the writer goes about making that point are problematic (which I know is kind of a loaded word sometimes but feels fitting here).
The most important thing about Pride shouldn't be whether or not straight people feel comfortable there. It's whether or not queer people feel comfortable there and if increased violence and a general "gentrified" party atmosphere is making queer people feel less comfortable with Pride, then that's an issue. The article definitely shouldn't have been making direct claims about the orientation of the people causing these issues, but the general point that Pride becoming more "mainstream" is leading to disenfranchisement of some of the people it's supposed to be for is a very real one. This very thread has been full of examples of that.
I agree with Keith. I feel like that's where the writer of the article was going with it. Much of it is hyperbole and assumptions and it's a really terrible article, but Pride has literally become a big party that some of the people in attendance couldn't care less what we're celebrating for.
"Oh, those gays know how to party! There are like, 3 different venues with hot djs at big clubs! Let's go!"
I'd also argue that it's not just a party of hetero teenagers, but just a lot of young people in general who take for granted the freedom that was earned over time, and they get to enjoy those privileges and rights without knowing how hard the fight was to get them.
And don't get me wrong - there is still a long way to go in many cities and countries, but things are arguably better now than they were 30, 40 years ago.
I understand the point that article is trying to make, that a celebration to recognize our own community has increasingly become a drinking and party excuse for those who don't really care about the movement. It's just one example of how Pride has lost a lot of its political and civil rights roots, and truth be told a lot of that is on LGBT people ourselves.
How about we focus instead on getting the fundamentalist jerks with huge signs reading FAG SIN and HOMOS IN HELL and etc etc that are all over the Pride festivals every year instead of something that literally poses zero threat to us?
I've never seen one of those people in my day-to-day life, nor do I ever especially expect to. The number of people who devote time to that sort of thing are pretty rare. But I'm still routinely afraid when I leave the house, because those aren't the only sorts of people I have to worry about.
I will never understand people getting pissy over non-lgbt people being happy for what we have now and celebrating with us. This article is crap on a stick.
oh i hate it, theyre fucking guests, and honestly the whole conceit of pride was being proud and making the people that make us a non-normative body really fucking uncomfortable given the inverse is us being made uncomfortable like every day forever. hell, ive been closeted most prides. i dont even feel comfortable or safe on that day
to omni: yo im talking about the level of comfort and safety and it being indicative of who feels comfortable and who doesnt feel comfortable or safe (hint: most LGBT people at pride) hell, most people at pride parades even while being safe in numbers are looking over their fuckin shoulders. moreso after orlando
edit: polite requests, the first:
hetero people please dont kiss at pride
please stop high fiving cops just because they have goddamn rainbow insignias on their person. you look like a tourist
I will never understand people getting pissy over non-lgbt people being happy for what we have now and celebrating with us. This article is crap on a stick.
oh i hate it, theyre fucking guests, and honestly the whole conceit of pride was being proud and making the people that make us a non-normative body really fucking uncomfortable given the inverse is us being made uncomfortable like every day forever. hell, ive been closeted most prides. i dont even feel comfortable or safe on that day
to omni: yo im talking about the level of comfort and safety and it being indicative of who feels comfortable and who doesnt feel comfortable or safe (hint: most LGBT people at pride) hell, most people at pride parades even while being safe in numbers are looking over their fuckin shoulders. moreso after orlando
edit: polite requests, the first:
hetero people please dont kiss at pride
please stop high fiving cops just because they have goddamn rainbow insignias on their person. you look like a tourist
Oh, okay, I understand what you mean now.
0
Options
BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
the phrase "it stands to reason" is indicative of something having an obvious or logical conclusion, but DOES NOT mean im laying out a concrete, absolutist statement, hence me saying "it stands to reason"
to be clearer, yes. yes bi people kiss on opposite ends of the binary side of things, and it can very easy to conflate a straight couple and a bi couple or a couple with a bi half, but the previous statement speaks to a larger normative body and its place within pride. just clarifying, not giving bi people guff. im sorry if that was how it came off, i did not mean have it come off that way and i hope this clears up what i meant
edit: for clarification, this is reference to @Brolo
the phrase "it stands to reason" is indicative of something having an obvious or logical conclusion, but DOES NOT mean im laying out a concrete, absolutist statement, hence me saying "it stands to reason"
Right, and I disagree that that's an obvious and logical conclusion. It's a leap of logic based on assumptions. But it's fine, your clarification that you were talking about perceptions and comfort levels definitely helped me understand what you were saying. Perceptional issues are important too, and perceptions aren't always logically sound, nor should they necessarily be expected to be.
I understand MP's point of view, though I don't agree with it in the sense that especially trans people can become very uncomfortable at an event where they should be able feel at home when they're surrounded by large crowds of drunk and partying cis straight people.
I also disagree with the notion that if someone is in an apparent straight relationship that automatically means they don't belong at Pride, as bi and trans people in hetero/hetero apparent relationships absolutely still deserve their space at Pride.
I also while a police presence can generally needed at large public events, they should not even remotely be marching in the parade, and definitely shouldn't have fucking recruiting booths there.
I will never understand people getting pissy over non-lgbt people being happy for what we have now and celebrating with us. This article is crap on a stick.
oh i hate it, theyre fucking guests, and honestly the whole conceit of pride was being proud and making the people that make us a non-normative body really fucking uncomfortable given the inverse is us being made uncomfortable like every day forever. hell, ive been closeted most prides. i dont even feel comfortable or safe on that day
to omni: yo im talking about the level of comfort and safety and it being indicative of who feels comfortable and who doesnt feel comfortable or safe (hint: most LGBT people at pride) hell, most people at pride parades even while being safe in numbers are looking over their fuckin shoulders. moreso after orlando
edit: polite requests, the first:
hetero people please dont kiss at pride
please stop high fiving cops just because they have goddamn rainbow insignias on their person. you look like a tourist
sounds like pride isn't really for you (like personality wise at this time, everyone is welcome all the time)
there was a time where straight allies didn't participate in pride and I think it is wonderful that my labmates and coworkers know about pride, enjoy celebrating the platonic ideal of LGBTQ freedom, and sometimes attend
policing straight people's behaviors is the same wagon circling that facilitates punching all the way down in LGBTQ communities and it is deplorable and quite juvenile
like you realize im not decrying straight participation? im voicing some concerns about how its being done
we live in a day and age where like, 5 of my trans buddies are arrested in new york for a march but everythings A-Ok because Oreo and Burger King put rainbows on stuff? come on, my criticism is about as nice as it should be
like you realize im not decrying straight participation? im voicing some concerns about how its being done
we live in a day and age where like, 5 of my trans buddies are arrested in new york for a march but everythings A-Ok because Oreo and Burger King put rainbows on stuff? come on, my criticism is about as nice as it should be
I don't think Pride is a zero sum game. It isn't all or nothing. We can take the time to celebrate and still recognize the myriad of injustices that happen to everyone in our community: particularly, the deplorable treatment of trans individuals and trans or queer people of color. We can also recognize that corporate pandering is just that.
"policing straight people's behaviors is the same wagon circling that facilitates punching all the way down in LGBTQ communities and it is deplorable and quite juvenile"
this is pedantic.
no.
we're adults, and criticizing straight people isnt nor will it ever, EVER, EVER remotely be the same as inflicting abuse and subjugation on LGBT folks. it is physically fuckin impossible to do this, by virtue of rote number
it wouldn't be punching down, it'd be punching up, which at this point is literally fucking impossible
too simple question, but just so I know: should straight people just stay away from Pride events entirely? Should organizations of any kind? My library (system, not just mine) marches in DC's Pride parade and tables at the festival and most of the folks that represent us are queer but there are some straight ones as well, if I'm ever in a position to influence that decision should I steer the ship clear of participating?
I'm still not sure how you determine the percentage of gay/straight/everything else people at a pride parade.
the conceit of pride is pride and so theres a lot of blatant self identification because the onus is on the pride part of the scenario
and then you got like, hetero people kissing. if a man kisses a woman comfortably at pride it stands to reason thats probably not a bi couple
i'm bi, my partner is straight
I really don't know if I'm welcome at pride or not
That you're dating someone who is straight doesn't mean you're not bi. You should be welcome at Pride. If you don't feel welcome, that's a problem with the Pride culture, not with you and it's bullshit that the culture is making you feel that way. Sorry.
too simple question, but just so I know: should straight people just stay away from Pride events entirely? Should organizations of any kind? My library (system, not just mine) marches in DC's Pride parade and tables at the festival and most of the folks that represent us are queer but there are some straight ones as well, if I'm ever in a position to influence that decision should I steer the ship clear of participating?
oh god no, diverse groupings and non homogenous mingling is good shit. i think after orlando we need a more robust discussion about the place straight people hold in pride? i think thats very fair, to interrogate that. like, we need participation that extends outward from pride, so that pride isnt a bumper sticker or a facebook photo session for straight folks. its important to keep perspective, and remind people this struggle is far from over. 200+ anti LGBT laws in america. and shoot, i wish i were more informed about what that looks like for my international counterparts. we gotta acknowledge that stuff more, gotta have more uncomfortable discussions for real
I'm still not sure how you determine the percentage of gay/straight/everything else people at a pride parade.
the conceit of pride is pride and so theres a lot of blatant self identification because the onus is on the pride part of the scenario
and then you got like, hetero people kissing. if a man kisses a woman comfortably at pride it stands to reason thats probably not a bi couple
i'm bi, my partner is straight
I really don't know if I'm welcome at pride or not
That you're dating someone who is straight doesn't mean you're not bi. You should be welcome at Pride. If you don't feel welcome, that's a problem with the Pride culture, not with you and it's bullshit that the culture is making you feel that way. Sorry.
I'm bi. Volunteered at VA Pride last year and the amount of absolute shit some of the older folks were giving younger folks for being bi or 'experimental' or just not gay/straight because they haven't found the right partner was really, really, realllly super disheartening.
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
I'm still not sure how you determine the percentage of gay/straight/everything else people at a pride parade.
the conceit of pride is pride and so theres a lot of blatant self identification because the onus is on the pride part of the scenario
and then you got like, hetero people kissing. if a man kisses a woman comfortably at pride it stands to reason thats probably not a bi couple
i'm bi, my partner is straight
I really don't know if I'm welcome at pride or not
That you're dating someone who is straight doesn't mean you're not bi. You should be welcome at Pride. If you don't feel welcome, that's a problem with the Pride culture, not with you and it's bullshit that the culture is making you feel that way. Sorry.
I'm bi. Volunteered at VA Pride last year and the amount of absolute shit some of the older folks were giving younger folks for being bi or 'experimental' or just not gay/straight because they haven't found the right partner was really, really, realllly super disheartening.
I HATE seeing that attitude. this year was the first year I actually saw a full bi booth at our Pride festival that wasn't part of the bigger lgbt umbrella and I was pretty thrilled.
the whole "you just say bi because you're a coward" needs to get stamped out as well
The big worry is obviously excluding people who need the community and things like Pride but are pressured out of participating because they pass as hetero or cis. That's the inherent danger of the attitude displayed by that article or sentiments like "no hetero pda at LGBTQIetc events." It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately.
There's already a resentment present within the community. No need to reinforce it.
"It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately"
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
straight people do not ever at all, have situations where they fear for their lives for kissing in public. hell, id feel uncomfortable kissing at pride, especially now. and i dont feel comfortable kissing in public outside of pride. illustrating this and politely asking something is a world of difference between laws drafted all over the country stating where i can or cannot shit or piss. full stop
"It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately"
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
straight people do not ever at all, have situations where they fear for their lives for kissing in public. hell, id feel uncomfortable kissing at pride, especially now. and i dont feel comfortable kissing in public outside of pride. illustrating this and politely asking something is a world of difference between laws drafted all over the country stating where i can or cannot shit or piss. full stop
please quote my anti bi statement, ill gladly be taken to task for it. please, please find that qoute
edit: forgive the light sarcasm, its not there. im explicitly talking about straight people, and we're being really disingenuous if we're saying straight people dont nor have they ever kissed at pride. theres a post everyone keeps avoiding where elucidate and apologize if the my sentiments were meant to come off as a pointed or in reference to bi people. which they are not. just gonna, keep saying that until i am blue in the face//fall unconscious
"It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately"
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
the only thing I see that article saying is that straight people shouldn't be allowed at pride so we as a minority can keep our cool, outcast status going and it backs it up with a ton of accusations and assumptions. There's really nothing good to take from it whatsoever.
Posts
I feel like there's a difference between having non-lgbt people come celebrate with us, and having them invade our spaces. Of course the line between the two can be tricky and I think this guy did a really poor job of trying to parse that out.
The most obvious example would be the difference between when I bring a straight friend or two to a gay club to have a nice evening together, and when a bachelorette party invades and tries to take the place over.
But for a big street party like pink saturday I'm not sure what there really is to be done about that? Like it's a public event and as society becomes more accepting of LGBT people it's naturally going to get bigger
That article isn't super great but the concern it brings up is definitely a real one and it shows up in more ways than just those darn straight kids totally ruining our parties or whatever
And that's completely untrue and, what's more, really shitty to assume about them.
At the same time, I'm incredibly irritated by the assumptions the author makes about others' sexual orientations. You should never assume to know someone's sexuality, and I'd expect a queer person to avoid doing that at Pride of all places. But then again, I've been assumed to be straight while in LGBT spaces so many times it's become exhausting, so I guess I shouldn't.
I am 100% ok with a bunch of straight people being comfortable enough with a Pride Festival that they have no problem attending just to have fun. It wasn't that long ago when they NEVER would have done that and it's an amazing thing to see now.
How about we focus instead on getting the fundamentalist jerks with huge signs reading FAG SIN and HOMOS IN HELL and etc etc that are all over the Pride festivals every year instead of something that literally poses zero threat to us?
The most important thing about Pride shouldn't be whether or not straight people feel comfortable there. It's whether or not queer people feel comfortable there and if increased violence and a general "gentrified" party atmosphere is making queer people feel less comfortable with Pride, then that's an issue. The article definitely shouldn't have been making direct claims about the orientation of the people causing these issues, but the general point that Pride becoming more "mainstream" is leading to disenfranchisement of some of the people it's supposed to be for is a very real one. This very thread has been full of examples of that.
"Oh, those gays know how to party! There are like, 3 different venues with hot djs at big clubs! Let's go!"
I'd also argue that it's not just a party of hetero teenagers, but just a lot of young people in general who take for granted the freedom that was earned over time, and they get to enjoy those privileges and rights without knowing how hard the fight was to get them.
And don't get me wrong - there is still a long way to go in many cities and countries, but things are arguably better now than they were 30, 40 years ago.
Steam: TheArcadeBear
the conceit of pride is pride and so theres a lot of blatant self identification because the onus is on the pride part of the scenario
and then you got like, hetero people kissing. if a man kisses a woman comfortably at pride it stands to reason thats probably not a bi couple
Isn't this textbook bi erasure rhetoric though?
oh i hate it, theyre fucking guests, and honestly the whole conceit of pride was being proud and making the people that make us a non-normative body really fucking uncomfortable given the inverse is us being made uncomfortable like every day forever. hell, ive been closeted most prides. i dont even feel comfortable or safe on that day
to omni: yo im talking about the level of comfort and safety and it being indicative of who feels comfortable and who doesnt feel comfortable or safe (hint: most LGBT people at pride) hell, most people at pride parades even while being safe in numbers are looking over their fuckin shoulders. moreso after orlando
edit: polite requests, the first:
hetero people please dont kiss at pride
please stop high fiving cops just because they have goddamn rainbow insignias on their person. you look like a tourist
Oh, okay, I understand what you mean now.
i'm bi, my partner is straight
I really don't know if I'm welcome at pride or not
to be clearer, yes. yes bi people kiss on opposite ends of the binary side of things, and it can very easy to conflate a straight couple and a bi couple or a couple with a bi half, but the previous statement speaks to a larger normative body and its place within pride. just clarifying, not giving bi people guff. im sorry if that was how it came off, i did not mean have it come off that way and i hope this clears up what i meant
edit: for clarification, this is reference to @Brolo
Right, and I disagree that that's an obvious and logical conclusion. It's a leap of logic based on assumptions. But it's fine, your clarification that you were talking about perceptions and comfort levels definitely helped me understand what you were saying. Perceptional issues are important too, and perceptions aren't always logically sound, nor should they necessarily be expected to be.
People will be all obviously they aren't and bleh.
I also disagree with the notion that if someone is in an apparent straight relationship that automatically means they don't belong at Pride, as bi and trans people in hetero/hetero apparent relationships absolutely still deserve their space at Pride.
I also while a police presence can generally needed at large public events, they should not even remotely be marching in the parade, and definitely shouldn't have fucking recruiting booths there.
there was a time where straight allies didn't participate in pride and I think it is wonderful that my labmates and coworkers know about pride, enjoy celebrating the platonic ideal of LGBTQ freedom, and sometimes attend
policing straight people's behaviors is the same wagon circling that facilitates punching all the way down in LGBTQ communities and it is deplorable and quite juvenile
we live in a day and age where like, 5 of my trans buddies are arrested in new york for a march but everythings A-Ok because Oreo and Burger King put rainbows on stuff? come on, my criticism is about as nice as it should be
It's just that a lot of "straight participation" actually isn't, there's a bunch of friendly fire in that blast
dying rn, fuckin dying my guy
just my opinion too
opinions
"policing straight people's behaviors is the same wagon circling that facilitates punching all the way down in LGBTQ communities and it is deplorable and quite juvenile"
this is pedantic.
no.
we're adults, and criticizing straight people isnt nor will it ever, EVER, EVER remotely be the same as inflicting abuse and subjugation on LGBT folks. it is physically fuckin impossible to do this, by virtue of rote number
it wouldn't be punching down, it'd be punching up, which at this point is literally fucking impossible
That you're dating someone who is straight doesn't mean you're not bi. You should be welcome at Pride. If you don't feel welcome, that's a problem with the Pride culture, not with you and it's bullshit that the culture is making you feel that way. Sorry.
oh god no, diverse groupings and non homogenous mingling is good shit. i think after orlando we need a more robust discussion about the place straight people hold in pride? i think thats very fair, to interrogate that. like, we need participation that extends outward from pride, so that pride isnt a bumper sticker or a facebook photo session for straight folks. its important to keep perspective, and remind people this struggle is far from over. 200+ anti LGBT laws in america. and shoot, i wish i were more informed about what that looks like for my international counterparts. we gotta acknowledge that stuff more, gotta have more uncomfortable discussions for real
I'm bi. Volunteered at VA Pride last year and the amount of absolute shit some of the older folks were giving younger folks for being bi or 'experimental' or just not gay/straight because they haven't found the right partner was really, really, realllly super disheartening.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
I HATE seeing that attitude. this year was the first year I actually saw a full bi booth at our Pride festival that wasn't part of the bigger lgbt umbrella and I was pretty thrilled.
the whole "you just say bi because you're a coward" needs to get stamped out as well
There's already a resentment present within the community. No need to reinforce it.
I'm sure there are far better ways to address it.
It's part of what has made me keep a lot of gay communities at arm's length
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
straight people do not ever at all, have situations where they fear for their lives for kissing in public. hell, id feel uncomfortable kissing at pride, especially now. and i dont feel comfortable kissing in public outside of pride. illustrating this and politely asking something is a world of difference between laws drafted all over the country stating where i can or cannot shit or piss. full stop
You mean Bi people kissing.
edit: forgive the light sarcasm, its not there. im explicitly talking about straight people, and we're being really disingenuous if we're saying straight people dont nor have they ever kissed at pride. theres a post everyone keeps avoiding where elucidate and apologize if the my sentiments were meant to come off as a pointed or in reference to bi people. which they are not. just gonna, keep saying that until i am blue in the face//fall unconscious
the only thing I see that article saying is that straight people shouldn't be allowed at pride so we as a minority can keep our cool, outcast status going and it backs it up with a ton of accusations and assumptions. There's really nothing good to take from it whatsoever.