Jesus, I didn't realise that "the cops shouldn't do an armed entry to a house after someone calls the suicide hotline" would be a controversial statement. That seemed, like, so obvious. Cause you know, the reason there are suicide hotlines is to help people with suicidal thoughts, not to have the cops kick the door in and shove guns in the faces of everyone they live with.
Not to defend the cops in this situation because it clearly was overkill, but why did the suicide hotline call them in the first place? If they were on the phone with him at the time the police arrived, and he didn't have the gun in hand, I feel it shouldn't have escalated to that point to begin with.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Jesus, I didn't realise that "the cops shouldn't do an armed entry to a house after someone calls the suicide hotline" would be a controversial statement. That seemed, like, so obvious. Cause you know, the reason there are suicide hotlines is to help people with suicidal thoughts, not to have the cops kick the door in and shove guns in the faces of everyone they live with.
Not to defend the cops in this situation because it clearly was overkill, but why did the suicide hotline call them in the first place? If they were on the phone with him at the time the police arrived, and he didn't have the gun in hand, I feel it shouldn't have escalated to that point to begin with.
As far as we can tell it was an automatic response to a red flag. NOPD ostensibly had a unit for dealing with this kind of crisis. Sadly I doubt anyone on their end had any concept of what would happen. This is peiced together from what the lady on the hotline said filtered through my brother so some details may be off, but it's pretty plausible overall.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
We have no idea what the suicide line told the cops. Like I said, this is just not a good example of "fuck the police". I am not saying those stories don't exist and there aren't reasons to mistrust them.
Hearing a story about a suicidal person talking about having a gun, then police coming in, detaining everyone to assess the situation, arresting no one, and no one getting hurt, isn't one of them.
With psychiatric emergencies police are usually involved by protocol.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Deal with it. I would likely call local LE after (especially if I had to shoot the assailant), but I honestly don't think it would make any difference as to the outcome other than the report being filed. But that's coming from my own experience with local LE in a similar situation.
My other experiences with local LE, growing up in poor neighborhoods with large black populations, for example involve my father being subject to a traffic stop in which the vehicle he was driving was stripped out and he was left on the side of the road, after being accused of buying crack. And then local LE accusing my grandmother of running a crack house. And I'm fucking white. My family has put up with a fraction of the bullshit that black families around us have.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Deal with it. I would likely call local LE after (especially if I had to shoot the assailant), but I honestly don't think it would make any difference as to the outcome other than the report being filed. But that's coming from my own experience with local LE in a similar situation.
My other experiences with local LE, growing up in poor neighborhoods with large black populations, for example involve my father being subject to a traffic stop in which the vehicle he was driving was stripped out and he was left on the side of the road, after being accused of buying crack. And then local LE accusing my grandmother of running a crack house. And I'm fucking white. My family has put up with a fraction of the bullshit that black families around us have.
You'really subjecting yourself to the risk of being injured or killed by the invader. Is that equal to or lesser than the risk of being injured or killed by law enforcement?
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
We have no idea what the suicide line told the cops. Like I said, this is just not a good example of "fuck the police". I am not saying those stories don't exist and there aren't reasons to mistrust them.
Hearing a story about a suicidal person talking about having a gun, then police coming in, detaining everyone to assess the situation, arresting no one, and no one getting hurt, isn't one of them.
No. Like has been pointed out more than once it is and example of why people distrust police. Especially people in lower income areas. Because the average interaction between lower middle class and below is significantly different than those above.
You're also ignoring that they were needlessly escalating while ignoring the advice of the employee trained and hired specifically to deal with the specific situation they found themselves in.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Deal with it. I would likely call local LE after (especially if I had to shoot the assailant), but I honestly don't think it would make any difference as to the outcome other than the report being filed. But that's coming from my own experience with local LE in a similar situation.
My other experiences with local LE, growing up in poor neighborhoods with large black populations, for example involve my father being subject to a traffic stop in which the vehicle he was driving was stripped out and he was left on the side of the road, after being accused of buying crack. And then local LE accusing my grandmother of running a crack house. And I'm fucking white. My family has put up with a fraction of the bullshit that black families around us have.
You'really subjecting yourself to the risk of being injured or killed by the invader. Is that equal to or lesser than the risk of being injured or killed by law enforcement?
It's not equal to or less risk, it's two separate situation of risk analysis. By the time I would be able to contact LE the home invader/robber is gone.
And it's still not comparable to the original situation, which was a domestic disturbance call. Not a home invasion, robbery, terrorist attack, or dwarf assault. Stop with the red herring bullshit.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Scare the intruder off or give them what they want. Depends on the specifics for which. I honestly can't see any other options? I guess you could call after but why bother. If you need a police report for insurance I suppose, but that is so far out of the realm of my experience that I don't really know how that is dealt with. I sure ain't going to just invite a cop to come peruse through my shit though. Not without a damn good reason.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Deal with it. I would likely call local LE after (especially if I had to shoot the assailant), but I honestly don't think it would make any difference as to the outcome other than the report being filed. But that's coming from my own experience with local LE in a similar situation.
My other experiences with local LE, growing up in poor neighborhoods with large black populations, for example involve my father being subject to a traffic stop in which the vehicle he was driving was stripped out and he was left on the side of the road, after being accused of buying crack. And then local LE accusing my grandmother of running a crack house. And I'm fucking white. My family has put up with a fraction of the bullshit that black families around us have.
You'really subjecting yourself to the risk of being injured or killed by the invader. Is that equal to or lesser than the risk of being injured or killed by law enforcement?
It's not equal to or less risk, it's two separate situation of risk analysis. By the time I would be able to contact LE the home invader/robber is gone.
And it's still not comparable to the original situation, which was a domestic disturbance call. Not a home invasion, robbery, terrorist attack, or dwarf assault. Stop with the red herring bullshit.
The red herring is the domestic disturbance call, because that is out of your control if you call the suicide hotline. How you feel about police has no bearing on what the operator does.
You do have control over whether to call police as a witness to a crime, so I wanted to gauge that scenario as it's more relevant to the discussion.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Deal with it. I would likely call local LE after (especially if I had to shoot the assailant), but I honestly don't think it would make any difference as to the outcome other than the report being filed. But that's coming from my own experience with local LE in a similar situation.
My other experiences with local LE, growing up in poor neighborhoods with large black populations, for example involve my father being subject to a traffic stop in which the vehicle he was driving was stripped out and he was left on the side of the road, after being accused of buying crack. And then local LE accusing my grandmother of running a crack house. And I'm fucking white. My family has put up with a fraction of the bullshit that black families around us have.
You'really subjecting yourself to the risk of being injured or killed by the invader. Is that equal to or lesser than the risk of being injured or killed by law enforcement?
It's not equal to or less risk, it's two separate situation of risk analysis. By the time I would be able to contact LE the home invader/robber is gone.
And it's still not comparable to the original situation, which was a domestic disturbance call. Not a home invasion, robbery, terrorist attack, or dwarf assault. Stop with the red herring bullshit.
The red herring is the domestic disturbance call, because that is out of your control if you call the suicide hotline. How you feel about police has no bearing on what the operator does.
You do have control over whether to call police as a witness to a crime, so I wanted to gauge that scenario as it's more relevant to the discussion.
That is the exact situation that was being discussed. Unless you seem to have misread my original post on the topic. And then every follow on post that wasn't essentially "The Police can never do wrong and here's how they didn't fuck up" was addressing specifically domestic issues. Not robberies. So no, your scenario actually isn't more relevant. It may be relevant, but it's significantly less.
RE Suicide Hotline contacting LE: That was in this one scenario as outline by a poster. That is not all domestic disturbance calls. And even then it was an illustration of why someone in the future may be less likely to contact LE.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Deal with it. I would likely call local LE after (especially if I had to shoot the assailant), but I honestly don't think it would make any difference as to the outcome other than the report being filed. But that's coming from my own experience with local LE in a similar situation.
My other experiences with local LE, growing up in poor neighborhoods with large black populations, for example involve my father being subject to a traffic stop in which the vehicle he was driving was stripped out and he was left on the side of the road, after being accused of buying crack. And then local LE accusing my grandmother of running a crack house. And I'm fucking white. My family has put up with a fraction of the bullshit that black families around us have.
You'really subjecting yourself to the risk of being injured or killed by the invader. Is that equal to or lesser than the risk of being injured or killed by law enforcement?
It's not equal to or less risk, it's two separate situation of risk analysis. By the time I would be able to contact LE the home invader/robber is gone.
And it's still not comparable to the original situation, which was a domestic disturbance call. Not a home invasion, robbery, terrorist attack, or dwarf assault. Stop with the red herring bullshit.
The red herring is the domestic disturbance call, because that is out of your control if you call the suicide hotline. How you feel about police has no bearing on what the operator does.
You do have control over whether to call police as a witness to a crime, so I wanted to gauge that scenario as it's more relevant to the discussion.
That is the exact situation that was being discussed. Unless you seem to have misread my original post on the topic. And then every follow on post that wasn't essentially "The Police can never do wrong and here's how they didn't fuck up" was addressing specifically domestic issues. Not robberies. So no, your scenario actually isn't more relevant. It may be relevant, but it's significantly less.
RE Suicide Hotline contacting LE: That was in this one scenario as outline by a poster. That is not all domestic disturbance calls. And even then it was an illustration of why someone in the future may be less likely to contact LE.
Yes, I meant the discrete scenario and not domestic disturbance calls in general.
The suicide hotline became a tangent of extenuating circumstances based on a communication black box in the narrative (the content of the phone call). In addition, I wanted to bring up the idea that either way, we are helpless against crime, and moving towards crime rather than a suicide threat seemed to be the way to go. Both your posts on your reaction to home invasion were instructive.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Scare the intruder off or give them what they want. Depends on the specifics for which. I honestly can't see any other options? I guess you could call after but why bother. If you need a police report for insurance I suppose, but that is so far out of the realm of my experience that I don't really know how that is dealt with. I sure ain't going to just invite a cop to come peruse through my shit though. Not without a damn good reason.
That doesn't make a like of sense, and outlines the mentality that police failures engender on a national stage.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Scare the intruder off or give them what they want. Depends on the specifics for which. I honestly can't see any other options? I guess you could call after but why bother. If you need a police report for insurance I suppose, but that is so far out of the realm of my experience that I don't really know how that is dealt with. I sure ain't going to just invite a cop to come peruse through my shit though. Not without a damn good reason.
My parent's place was broken into last year, I can verify that insurance requires a police report.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Scare the intruder off or give them what they want. Depends on the specifics for which. I honestly can't see any other options? I guess you could call after but why bother. If you need a police report for insurance I suppose, but that is so far out of the realm of my experience that I don't really know how that is dealt with. I sure ain't going to just invite a cop to come peruse through my shit though. Not without a damn good reason.
That doesn't make a like of sense, and outlines the mentality that police failures engender on a national stage.
Is there any data showing that police respond to home invasions in a timely enough manner to statically alter outcomes?
What is building here is a convincing narrative that police misconduct leads to a level of mistrust that engenders avoidable harm and disenfranchisement
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited October 2016
Let me share a story.
I was walking down Baseline Rd in Arizona one night, cool enough at night that I needed a hoodie.
Cop car pulls up into the parking lot ahead of me, I continue walking because all I'm doing is going to the store to get a few things.
As I pass the cops, they shout "Hey!" and come at me, tell me to get down on the sidewalk, handcuff me, and call in for a description. Mind you, they've been calling me random Mexican surnames the entire time when I asked what the hell I did. I get pretty tan skin. Also note, yes, this is Sheriff Joe's department.
So now, I'm handcuffed, chest down on the sidewalk, as they get a reply that they're looking for a guy in a white hoodie, black pants. I'm wearing a black hoodie and shorts. Still no good, and with a knee pressed directly in my back they dig my wallet out and pull out my ID. They look at it, throw my wallet on the ground, uncuff me, and take off.
Yeah. I really don't like the idea of calling some police departments to help. I'm fortunate to be in an area where the police are pretty good, but I've also lived in a lot of areas where they were total shitbirds.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited October 2016
For the last year or so I was in Arizona, I was doing things like ducking from cops, looking over my shoulder, purposely avoiding them, and basically acting the way someone who "did something wrong" would do.
They could've taken me in and threw me in jail for whatever they wanted. Maricopa County sheriffs have put people in jail for literally nothing while they "check their citizenship status."
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Scare the intruder off or give them what they want. Depends on the specifics for which. I honestly can't see any other options? I guess you could call after but why bother. If you need a police report for insurance I suppose, but that is so far out of the realm of my experience that I don't really know how that is dealt with. I sure ain't going to just invite a cop to come peruse through my shit though. Not without a damn good reason.
That doesn't make a like of sense, and outlines the mentality that police failures engender on a national stage.
Really what else can you do? Cops ain't going to show for a long time. Average response time here is like 10ish minutes I want to say? I know it's dropping but in that range plus or minus like 3 minutes probably. 7 minutes of what? Sitting there waiting? They are going to take what they want and go then. Who cares? If they aren't spooked by your general presence then they were probably looking for you and it don't matter. They want you dead you are dead either way.
Home invasions are kind of weird because really you only want them for the clean up 99% of the time. It's a smash and grab situation. People make it complicated so just being there prevents it most of the time. Inviting cops into my home just doesn't happen. Don't give them a chance to find a reason to start searching through your shit. You don't know what you have that might be illegal, or what they can "find" if they don't like you.
Edit: Sorry to single you out but we both seem very confused by the other person, and this feels like kind of the heart of the problem. Police mean very different things to different people and that is such a huge part of the problem. I am genuinely trying to understand how people who like the cops would use them.
Misconduct. Generally poor level of service rendered. The war on drugs meaning that a lot of people could end up in jail for a decade if cops look too closely around their house.
I don't think I'll be helped by an armed response from the police, that will likely come too late, and be an additional chance for the escalation of violence or introduce potential legal repercussions. I don't feel this is a profound misevaluation of risk.
They moistly come out at night, moistly.
+9
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
This is an incredibly fucked up thing for you to say!
But I guess we're living in a world where cops never even try community engagement and desecalation, because guns are way sexier, bro.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I was walking down Baseline Rd in Arizona one night, cool enough at night that I needed a hoodie.
Cop car pulls up into the parking lot ahead of me, I continue walking because all I'm doing is going to the store to get a few things.
As I pass the cops, they shout "Hey!" and come at me, tell me to get down on the sidewalk, handcuff me, and call in for a description. Mind you, they've been calling me random Mexican surnames the entire time when I asked what the hell I did. I get pretty tan skin. Also note, yes, this is Sheriff Joe's department.
So now, I'm handcuffed, chest down on the sidewalk, as they get a reply that they're looking for a guy in a white hoodie, black pants. I'm wearing a black hoodie and shorts. Still no good, and with a knee pressed directly in my back they dig my wallet out and pull out my ID. They look at it, throw my wallet on the ground, uncuff me, and take off.
Yeah. I really don't like the idea of calling some police departments to help. I'm fortunate to be in an area where the police are pretty good, but I've also lived in a lot of areas where they were total shitbirds.
I mean, I would want the police to knock, ask the person who answered the door if the unstable person who called the suicide hotline had gotten a hold of a gun(if the cops knew that info), and then when told no, I'd like the cops to keep their guns out of their hands and come in and talk to the guy's brother and assess if they needed to arrest him for his own safety or the safety of his family.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
Fuck that.
*knock knock* "Police open up!"
*BANG GUNSHOT SOMEONE DEAD* / *BANG GUNSHOT THROUGH THE DOOR POLICE DEAD*
In an ideal world, yeah I agree with you. Having lost a friend to a murder-suicide (no police were involved unfortunately), I would rather someone get roughed up and have their evening ruined than risk getting killed.
This seems to be the part you don't seem to be getting; They are still risking getting killed!
Would you let 6 random people point loaded shotguns at you? No, of course not. And then you combined that, with as you demonstrate so aptly, a mindset more akin to clearing blocks in a warzone than peacefully resolving a domestic problem and you ratchet the risk up even more.
It's just trading the risk of a murder-suicide tragedy for a "he was holding a book/phone/cigarette/was standing in a way vaguely like one would shoot a gun from" tragedy.
e: With the added risk of the "Fck you n****r, have some nightstick, or a rough ride, or an arrest on unpaid traffic tickets, or just an arrest and night in jail just for the hell of it"
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
A lesson is what people are taught, not what is true.
+7
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
A lesson is what people are taught, not what is true.
And you feel no ethical compulsion to tell the truth?
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
A lesson is what people are taught, not what is true.
And you feel no ethical compulsion to tell the truth?
i think the point was more that folks under certain sets of circumstances are taught through experience that it isn't safe to call the cops, that they will frequently make things worse, whether or not that's true across the board for everyone
My agency has, thus far in 16, responded to over 200,000 calls for service. We have shot 1 person, and he was a fugitive that fired first while using someone as a human shield.
However! The state of law enforcement in the US sucks and I can understand the viewpoint of never call the police. I don't agree, but I can understand.
What is comes down to I think is that some police forces are great and live up to the expectations we have for them. And far too many are absolutely shit. And we have no way to force the standards of the former onto the latter.
What is comes down to I think is that some police forces are great and live up to the expectations we have for them. And far too many are absolutely shit. And we have no way to force the standards of the former onto the latter.
Even if we didn't want to take local control away utterly (which would encounter so much resistance, despite being the best option on the balance), we could do like we did for schools in that police forces have to be state or federally accredited, and that if they fail to meet a certain standard they will lose local control to the state/feds or the entire department will get shut down and its territory added to neighboring jurisdictions who have an acceptably clean record (depending on size and convenience).
What is comes down to I think is that some police forces are great and live up to the expectations we have for them. And far too many are absolutely shit. And we have no way to force the standards of the former onto the latter.
Even if we didn't want to take local control away utterly (which would encounter so much resistance, despite being the best option on the balance), we could do like we did for schools in that police forces have to be state or federally accredited, and that if they fail to meet a certain standard they will lose local control to the state/feds or the entire department will get shut down and its territory added to neighboring jurisdictions who have an acceptably clean record (depending on size and convenience).
Many, if not all, have this on the state level. It's often called POST (peace officer standards and training) council/board (varies by state but "POST" is the usual abbreviation). The downside being like most police related oversite, I believe it is run with all the chiefs in the state having a say in decisions.
My agency has, thus far in 16, responded to over 200,000 calls for service. We have shot 1 person, and he was a fugitive that fired first while using someone as a human shield.
However! The state of law enforcement in the US sucks and I can understand the viewpoint of never call the police. I don't agree, but I can understand.
I don't know where I was going with this.
I would love to know your agencies policies and training protocols on use of force.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
We have no idea what the suicide line told the cops. Like I said, this is just not a good example of "fuck the police". I am not saying those stories don't exist and there aren't reasons to mistrust them.
Hearing a story about a suicidal person talking about having a gun, then police coming in, detaining everyone to assess the situation, arresting no one, and no one getting hurt, isn't one of them.
No. Like has been pointed out more than once it is and example of why people distrust police. Especially people in lower income areas. Because the average interaction between lower middle class and below is significantly different than those above.
You're also ignoring that they were needlessly escalating while ignoring the advice of the employee trained and hired specifically to deal with the specific situation they found themselves in.
when I was a kid my neighbor was pounding on our door screaming that he'd fuck my mom up, I dont even remember what he was mad about, she called the police arrested him and my mom (for assault), ended up holding her all weekend because she pointed her phone at someone, they even tried to get me to lie and say she threw something at him when she didn't, she never left our porch. Once my mom got arrested for yelling at a cop who was being a dick, after he arrested her he was bragging about overtime at the station when I took the bus down there to bail her out, with her own debit card (since they wouldn't let her do that even though she had the card with her when they picked her up). When I was 17 a cop threatened to arrest me for child abduction because I couldn't prove my niece in the car with me was my niece, he had pulled me over for "driving a suspicious vehicle" (which is code for being poor and he's fishing to give out a no insurance ticket)
I mean I got worse encounters with cops, but my point is if you're a poor American calling the cops is a last fucking resort, because they're going to be in a bad mood when they get there and they are never, ever your friend or advocate
we were white so the idea that they'd shoot someone never really was a thing, just that calling them was a bad idea, always. To this day I panic when I see a cop following me even though they're genuinely helpful in every interaction I've had since I moved and went to college, that shit is baked in though and I don't think I'll ever get over it
basically: if you're a poor white person you think the cops are always out to get you and trap you with some kind of fucking fine or arrest, you're an easy source of revenue for the PD
if you're poor and black you also have to worry about them murdering you
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Not to defend the cops in this situation because it clearly was overkill, but why did the suicide hotline call them in the first place? If they were on the phone with him at the time the police arrived, and he didn't have the gun in hand, I feel it shouldn't have escalated to that point to begin with.
So you're fine with LE needlessly escalating, and somehow you don't understand why other people who have to actually be on the other end may not trust LE?
Well, there's a difference between the suicide hotline calling the cops without your knowledge and hearing glass break on your back porch
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yes, there is a difference between a domestic issue and a robbery/burglary.
In the first I'm much less likely to call local LE. And, in my experience, it's almost as useless to call LE in the latter situation as well. This isn't a situation in which you must have the same trust in LE on all calls or none, nor is there this dichotomy between trusting the police fully, or criticizing them, and not being "deserving" of their services. If LEOs get so rump roasted over someone saying they don't trust them or criticizing them, too fucking bad. Quit. Being a sworn officer is voluntary.
What would you do during a home invasion then?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
As far as we can tell it was an automatic response to a red flag. NOPD ostensibly had a unit for dealing with this kind of crisis. Sadly I doubt anyone on their end had any concept of what would happen. This is peiced together from what the lady on the hotline said filtered through my brother so some details may be off, but it's pretty plausible overall.
We have no idea what the suicide line told the cops. Like I said, this is just not a good example of "fuck the police". I am not saying those stories don't exist and there aren't reasons to mistrust them.
Hearing a story about a suicidal person talking about having a gun, then police coming in, detaining everyone to assess the situation, arresting no one, and no one getting hurt, isn't one of them.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Deal with it. I would likely call local LE after (especially if I had to shoot the assailant), but I honestly don't think it would make any difference as to the outcome other than the report being filed. But that's coming from my own experience with local LE in a similar situation.
My other experiences with local LE, growing up in poor neighborhoods with large black populations, for example involve my father being subject to a traffic stop in which the vehicle he was driving was stripped out and he was left on the side of the road, after being accused of buying crack. And then local LE accusing my grandmother of running a crack house. And I'm fucking white. My family has put up with a fraction of the bullshit that black families around us have.
You'really subjecting yourself to the risk of being injured or killed by the invader. Is that equal to or lesser than the risk of being injured or killed by law enforcement?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
No. Like has been pointed out more than once it is and example of why people distrust police. Especially people in lower income areas. Because the average interaction between lower middle class and below is significantly different than those above.
You're also ignoring that they were needlessly escalating while ignoring the advice of the employee trained and hired specifically to deal with the specific situation they found themselves in.
It's not equal to or less risk, it's two separate situation of risk analysis. By the time I would be able to contact LE the home invader/robber is gone.
And it's still not comparable to the original situation, which was a domestic disturbance call. Not a home invasion, robbery, terrorist attack, or dwarf assault. Stop with the red herring bullshit.
Scare the intruder off or give them what they want. Depends on the specifics for which. I honestly can't see any other options? I guess you could call after but why bother. If you need a police report for insurance I suppose, but that is so far out of the realm of my experience that I don't really know how that is dealt with. I sure ain't going to just invite a cop to come peruse through my shit though. Not without a damn good reason.
The red herring is the domestic disturbance call, because that is out of your control if you call the suicide hotline. How you feel about police has no bearing on what the operator does.
You do have control over whether to call police as a witness to a crime, so I wanted to gauge that scenario as it's more relevant to the discussion.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That is the exact situation that was being discussed. Unless you seem to have misread my original post on the topic. And then every follow on post that wasn't essentially "The Police can never do wrong and here's how they didn't fuck up" was addressing specifically domestic issues. Not robberies. So no, your scenario actually isn't more relevant. It may be relevant, but it's significantly less.
RE Suicide Hotline contacting LE: That was in this one scenario as outline by a poster. That is not all domestic disturbance calls. And even then it was an illustration of why someone in the future may be less likely to contact LE.
Yes, I meant the discrete scenario and not domestic disturbance calls in general.
The suicide hotline became a tangent of extenuating circumstances based on a communication black box in the narrative (the content of the phone call). In addition, I wanted to bring up the idea that either way, we are helpless against crime, and moving towards crime rather than a suicide threat seemed to be the way to go. Both your posts on your reaction to home invasion were instructive.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That doesn't make a like of sense, and outlines the mentality that police failures engender on a national stage.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
My parent's place was broken into last year, I can verify that insurance requires a police report.
Is there any data showing that police respond to home invasions in a timely enough manner to statically alter outcomes?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I was walking down Baseline Rd in Arizona one night, cool enough at night that I needed a hoodie.
Cop car pulls up into the parking lot ahead of me, I continue walking because all I'm doing is going to the store to get a few things.
As I pass the cops, they shout "Hey!" and come at me, tell me to get down on the sidewalk, handcuff me, and call in for a description. Mind you, they've been calling me random Mexican surnames the entire time when I asked what the hell I did. I get pretty tan skin. Also note, yes, this is Sheriff Joe's department.
So now, I'm handcuffed, chest down on the sidewalk, as they get a reply that they're looking for a guy in a white hoodie, black pants. I'm wearing a black hoodie and shorts. Still no good, and with a knee pressed directly in my back they dig my wallet out and pull out my ID. They look at it, throw my wallet on the ground, uncuff me, and take off.
Yeah. I really don't like the idea of calling some police departments to help. I'm fortunate to be in an area where the police are pretty good, but I've also lived in a lot of areas where they were total shitbirds.
They could've taken me in and threw me in jail for whatever they wanted. Maricopa County sheriffs have put people in jail for literally nothing while they "check their citizenship status."
Really what else can you do? Cops ain't going to show for a long time. Average response time here is like 10ish minutes I want to say? I know it's dropping but in that range plus or minus like 3 minutes probably. 7 minutes of what? Sitting there waiting? They are going to take what they want and go then. Who cares? If they aren't spooked by your general presence then they were probably looking for you and it don't matter. They want you dead you are dead either way.
Home invasions are kind of weird because really you only want them for the clean up 99% of the time. It's a smash and grab situation. People make it complicated so just being there prevents it most of the time. Inviting cops into my home just doesn't happen. Don't give them a chance to find a reason to start searching through your shit. You don't know what you have that might be illegal, or what they can "find" if they don't like you.
Edit: Sorry to single you out but we both seem very confused by the other person, and this feels like kind of the heart of the problem. Police mean very different things to different people and that is such a huge part of the problem. I am genuinely trying to understand how people who like the cops would use them.
I don't think I'll be helped by an armed response from the police, that will likely come too late, and be an additional chance for the escalation of violence or introduce potential legal repercussions. I don't feel this is a profound misevaluation of risk.
This is an incredibly fucked up thing for you to say!
But I guess we're living in a world where cops never even try community engagement and desecalation, because guns are way sexier, bro.
The main thing is to not sound like this asshole (1:40 if it doesn't work)
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
:bro:
This seems to be the part you don't seem to be getting; They are still risking getting killed!
Would you let 6 random people point loaded shotguns at you? No, of course not. And then you combined that, with as you demonstrate so aptly, a mindset more akin to clearing blocks in a warzone than peacefully resolving a domestic problem and you ratchet the risk up even more.
It's just trading the risk of a murder-suicide tragedy for a "he was holding a book/phone/cigarette/was standing in a way vaguely like one would shoot a gun from" tragedy.
e: With the added risk of the "Fck you n****r, have some nightstick, or a rough ride, or an arrest on unpaid traffic tickets, or just an arrest and night in jail just for the hell of it"
A lesson is what people are taught, not what is true.
And you feel no ethical compulsion to tell the truth?
i think the point was more that folks under certain sets of circumstances are taught through experience that it isn't safe to call the cops, that they will frequently make things worse, whether or not that's true across the board for everyone
hitting hot metal with hammers
This was unexpected. Kudos.
My agency has, thus far in 16, responded to over 200,000 calls for service. We have shot 1 person, and he was a fugitive that fired first while using someone as a human shield.
However! The state of law enforcement in the US sucks and I can understand the viewpoint of never call the police. I don't agree, but I can understand.
I don't know where I was going with this.
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PSN: AbEntropy
Even if we didn't want to take local control away utterly (which would encounter so much resistance, despite being the best option on the balance), we could do like we did for schools in that police forces have to be state or federally accredited, and that if they fail to meet a certain standard they will lose local control to the state/feds or the entire department will get shut down and its territory added to neighboring jurisdictions who have an acceptably clean record (depending on size and convenience).
Many, if not all, have this on the state level. It's often called POST (peace officer standards and training) council/board (varies by state but "POST" is the usual abbreviation). The downside being like most police related oversite, I believe it is run with all the chiefs in the state having a say in decisions.
I would love to know your agencies policies and training protocols on use of force.
when I was a kid my neighbor was pounding on our door screaming that he'd fuck my mom up, I dont even remember what he was mad about, she called the police arrested him and my mom (for assault), ended up holding her all weekend because she pointed her phone at someone, they even tried to get me to lie and say she threw something at him when she didn't, she never left our porch. Once my mom got arrested for yelling at a cop who was being a dick, after he arrested her he was bragging about overtime at the station when I took the bus down there to bail her out, with her own debit card (since they wouldn't let her do that even though she had the card with her when they picked her up). When I was 17 a cop threatened to arrest me for child abduction because I couldn't prove my niece in the car with me was my niece, he had pulled me over for "driving a suspicious vehicle" (which is code for being poor and he's fishing to give out a no insurance ticket)
I mean I got worse encounters with cops, but my point is if you're a poor American calling the cops is a last fucking resort, because they're going to be in a bad mood when they get there and they are never, ever your friend or advocate
we were white so the idea that they'd shoot someone never really was a thing, just that calling them was a bad idea, always. To this day I panic when I see a cop following me even though they're genuinely helpful in every interaction I've had since I moved and went to college, that shit is baked in though and I don't think I'll ever get over it
if you're poor and black you also have to worry about them murdering you