it has been said multiple times in this thread, that when people who are marginalized feel that every other option available to them is being summarily ignored, that the only way to make people take notice is to start breaking shit, people will start breaking shit.
And you keep denying them that.
You can justify it any way you like, it will not help the cause. It doesn't matter if you think it's right, or just, or even simply understandable, it still will not help the cause.
You can romanticize it until you are blue in the face, but it will not help the cause.
Maybe black people can protest in a way that won't get widely criticised
Like, say, not standing for the National Anthem
Nobody could object to that
Maybe they could protest by voting out of office the people in charge of the police.
No, I think arguing that political action is an important, or perhaps the most important, way to respond to this issue of police violence especially at a local level, is a thing that belongs in this thread.
Typically, I assume that people on these forums know how democracy works, but.... you do know how democracy works, right? Minorities don't typically vote their way out of their own oppression, because... that's sorta how democracy is designed.
Man don't be a silly goose. You don't need to take that tone.
Minority citizens are a large and important constituency included in the political party in power in many of these local municipalities, and discussing why they continue to vote into office people who hire corrupt police that proceeded to murder them on the street is an excellent question to ask.
Do you really think that the mayor of Charlotte would still have her job if the minority community rose up in protest at The Ballot Box instead of on the streets? Minorities in major municipalities do have the political strength to move the needle and their allies would take notice if they were willing to use it.
Ch'yeah, I know, right? What's wrong with these people? Why don't they only live in areas where they're the majority population, stop having their votes suppressed by bullshit municipal and state laws, persistently have faith in electoral systems that have been rigged against them, and then all act in concert on election day to vote for the mayoral candidate who they can be absolutely sure will take on both entrenched city hall and police department institutions, but also fight back against racist state legislators?
It sounds so fucking easy now that you suggested it, Spool! Come the fuck on. You've participated in this thread (and its predecessors, like the Ferguson thread) enough to know we've gone over all these topics before.
I dont know what to tell you man. People still manage to elect Democrats in these cities despite all the barriers you mentioned, and the minority communittly breaks about 80% D or more, so....
Maybe these citizens need to find a Democrat who won't defend cops that kill them, since they're voting for one anyway, and demand that person be the candidate on pain of 0% minority turnout.
And yeah its not the magic solution but it sure as shit ought to be in the arsenal. Its more effective than burning down a gas station. I mean, not a single mayor has lost his job that i know of in the last 2 years after his employees killed an unarmed citizen of any race, nevermind a minority. Its pretty hard to argue that black people in, say, Chicago, have no political power, then look at Rahm's support on the South Side. Its not a lack of power, its a lack of will to use it.
part of the problem is gerrymandering on the D end (gerrymandering always leads to incestuous circle jerks), part of the problem is the way things like this actually break down (police forces are very difficult to reform even for a non corrupt determined mayor), part is some black towns under the jurisdiction of police of a place they have very little say in voting for. A bigger part is the rats nest occupying army mentality pushed all across the country in police departments
I mean it's no like electing a Republican into Baltimore or Chicago or Philly, someone blaming black people for being oppressed, would improve things
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
it has been said multiple times in this thread, that when people who are marginalized feel that every other option available to them is being summarily ignored, that the only way to make people take notice is to start breaking shit, people will start breaking shit.
And you keep denying them that.
You can justify it any way you like, it will not help the cause. It doesn't matter if you think it's right, or just, or even simply understandable, it still will not help the cause.
You can romanticize it until you are blue in the face, but it will not help the cause.
Maybe black people can protest in a way that won't get widely criticised
Like, say, not standing for the National Anthem
Nobody could object to that
Maybe they could protest by voting out of office the people in charge of the police.
No, I think arguing that political action is an important, or perhaps the most important, way to respond to this issue of police violence especially at a local level, is a thing that belongs in this thread.
Typically, I assume that people on these forums know how democracy works, but.... you do know how democracy works, right? Minorities don't typically vote their way out of their own oppression, because... that's sorta how democracy is designed.
Man don't be a silly goose. You don't need to take that tone.
Minority citizens are a large and important constituency included in the political party in power in many of these local municipalities, and discussing why they continue to vote into office people who hire corrupt police that proceeded to murder them on the street is an excellent question to ask.
Do you really think that the mayor of Charlotte would still have her job if the minority community rose up in protest at The Ballot Box instead of on the streets? Minorities in major municipalities do have the political strength to move the needle and their allies would take notice if they were willing to use it.
Ch'yeah, I know, right? What's wrong with these people? Why don't they only live in areas where they're the majority population, stop having their votes suppressed by bullshit municipal and state laws, persistently have faith in electoral systems that have been rigged against them, and then all act in concert on election day to vote for the mayoral candidate who they can be absolutely sure will take on both entrenched city hall and police department institutions, but also fight back against racist state legislators?
It sounds so fucking easy now that you suggested it, Spool! Come the fuck on. You've participated in this thread (and its predecessors, like the Ferguson thread) enough to know we've gone over all these topics before.
I dont know what to tell you man. People still manage to elect Democrats in these cities despite all the barriers you mentioned, and the minority communittly breaks about 80% D or more, so....
Maybe these citizens need to find a Democrat who won't defend cops that kill them, since they're voting for one anyway, and demand that person be the candidate on pain of 0% minority turnout.
And yeah its not the magic solution but it sure as shit ought to be in the arsenal. Its more effective than burning down a gas station. I mean, not a single mayor has lost his job that i know of in the last 2 years after his employees killed an unarmed citizen of any race, nevermind a minority. Its pretty hard to argue that black people in, say, Chicago, have no political power, then look at Rahm's support on the South Side. Its not a lack of power, its a lack of will to use it.
part of the problem is gerrymandering on the D end (gerrymandering always leads to incestuous circle jerks), part of the problem is the way things like this actually break down (police forces are very difficult to reform even for a non corrupt determined mayor), part is some black towns under the jurisdiction of police of a place they have very little say in voting for. A bigger part is the rats nest occupying army mentality pushed all across the country in police departments
I mean it's no like electing a Republican into Baltimore or Chicago or Philly, someone blaming black people for being oppressed, would improve things
It doesn't matter what the City of Milwaukee does, they could change every single officer on the City's police to be shining paragons of virtue, but they will still have to deal with a large set of racist electors in the rest of the county continually electing David "Grab your guns, the police can't protect you" Clarke sheriff running police operations within their city.
Milwaukee are still fighting against the white flight communities that surround it, and that's not to mention a historically and currently actively hostile state government. Remember, Scott Walker was the elected Milwaukee County executive before becoming Governor. Ultimately, there is a very well founded argument that the city of Milwaukee and it's residents are being taxed without representation.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
True enough. But unfortunately, there are enough people thinking that way.
This is what I am talking about when I say that incidents like Ferguson and Tulsa are not merely about race. If there are bad people in the streets that are not reported to the police because of a lack of trust in the responding officers or faith in the system, we are going to have a lot more people in the streets that should be in hospitals or the prison system.
But even then, the subject has to have crossed a certain line to even be held. That incident I mentioned on the last page about the young man with the shotgun would have been resolved with a smaller body count if the police had been able to hold him because of the threat he posed to his family.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
True enough. But unfortunately, there are enough people thinking that way.
This is what I am talking about when I say that incidents like Ferguson and Tulsa are not merely about race. If there are bad people in the streets that are not reported to the police because of a lack of trust in the responding officers or faith in the system, we are going to have a lot more people in the streets that should be in hospitals or the prison system.
But even then, the subject has to have crossed a certain line to even be held. That incident I mentioned on the last page about the young man with the shotgun would have been resolved with a smaller body count if the police had been able to hold him because of the threat he posed to his family.
Stuff like this is also why people stop calling the police. Some communities have not been calling the police for a long time before this recent spate of highly publicized police shootings, for quiet reasons invisible to outsiders.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
Handcuffing 2 people for what? Showing up to the house at all why? And what positives for this? My brother no longer used the suicide hotline so that's a minus. He was reaching out for help and never again. It started his life long distrust of the whole mental health system.
So what was the purpose of pointing 6 shotguns at my face I guess is the question? And my dad? Or hell even my brother. They woke up the entire house, implicitly threatened us, and for what gain? I sure as hell didn't walk away feeling like I should ever use them in that situation.
Just to be extra clear, by the time I answered the door they had my brother in custody. Everything after that was dealing with people that they have no reason to suspect of anything at all.
One of my best friends was shot in the chest because the police were called when he had a mental-health crisis, and then the police escalated and mishandled the situation when they arrived.
If I have a problem with a mentally ill person's behavior then I am probably not going to call the police, not unless it is an extremely dangerous situation.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
Handcuffing 2 people for what? Showing up to the house at all why? And what positives for this? My brother no longer used the suicide hotline so that's a minus. He was reaching out for help and never again. It started his life long distrust of the whole mental health system.
So what was the purpose of pointing 6 shotguns at my face I guess is the question? And my dad? Or hell even my brother. They woke up the entire house, implicitly threatened us, and for what gain? I sure as hell didn't walk away feeling like I should ever use them in that situation.
Just to be extra clear, by the time I answered the door they had my brother in custody. Everything after that was dealing with people that they have no reason to suspect of anything at all.
They showed up, knowing someone claiming mental instability was armed with a firearm. They detained everyone in the house to determine there was no threat to the lives of anyone there, and restrained them until everyone was accounted for / the situation could be worked out.
They are not responsible for your brothers mental health. That is your job. They ensured no one was killed. That is their job.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
...what. they showed up, threatened lethal force than left. Without doing anything useful.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
Handcuffing 2 people for what? Showing up to the house at all why? And what positives for this? My brother no longer used the suicide hotline so that's a minus. He was reaching out for help and never again. It started his life long distrust of the whole mental health system.
So what was the purpose of pointing 6 shotguns at my face I guess is the question? And my dad? Or hell even my brother. They woke up the entire house, implicitly threatened us, and for what gain? I sure as hell didn't walk away feeling like I should ever use them in that situation.
Just to be extra clear, by the time I answered the door they had my brother in custody. Everything after that was dealing with people that they have no reason to suspect of anything at all.
They showed up, knowing someone claiming mental instability was armed with a firearm. They detained everyone in the house to determine there was no threat to the lives of anyone there, and restrained them until everyone was accounted for / the situation could be worked out.
They are not responsible for your brothers mental health. That is your job. They ensured no one was killed. That is their job.
lol
if you can't see pointing an almost comical amount of shotguns at literally everyone inside a house because someone called a suicide hotline as wrong and a dramatic escalation of the situation for really no reason, then I'm not sure where to even go with this conversation.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
...what. they showed up, threatened lethal force than left. Without doing anything useful.
Okay, different data interpretation for different people.
Anyway, not every snake is poisonous, but enough of them are for people to be afraid of them.
Not every police department is corrupt, incompetent, and/or prejudice, but enough of them are for people to not ask for help if and when they need it.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
Handcuffing 2 people for what? Showing up to the house at all why? And what positives for this? My brother no longer used the suicide hotline so that's a minus. He was reaching out for help and never again. It started his life long distrust of the whole mental health system.
So what was the purpose of pointing 6 shotguns at my face I guess is the question? And my dad? Or hell even my brother. They woke up the entire house, implicitly threatened us, and for what gain? I sure as hell didn't walk away feeling like I should ever use them in that situation.
Just to be extra clear, by the time I answered the door they had my brother in custody. Everything after that was dealing with people that they have no reason to suspect of anything at all.
They showed up, knowing someone claiming mental instability was armed with a firearm. They detained everyone in the house to determine there was no threat to the lives of anyone there, and restrained them until everyone was accounted for / the situation could be worked out.
They are not responsible for your brothers mental health. That is your job. They ensured no one was killed. That is their job.
lol
if you can't see pointing an almost comical amount of shotguns at literally everyone inside a house because someone called a suicide hotline as wrong and a dramatic escalation of the situation for really no reason, then I'm not sure where to even go with this conversation.
They responded to an unknown threat of violence against that household. All they knew was there was someone purportedly unstable in the house with a gun. They had no idea the number of people involved, so they detained everyone until they were the situation was secured. No one was injured.
You know what happens when they don't do that?
Someone ends up killing everyone in the house, and they get derided for not responding in a timely/useful manner.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
Handcuffing 2 people for what? Showing up to the house at all why? And what positives for this? My brother no longer used the suicide hotline so that's a minus. He was reaching out for help and never again. It started his life long distrust of the whole mental health system.
So what was the purpose of pointing 6 shotguns at my face I guess is the question? And my dad? Or hell even my brother. They woke up the entire house, implicitly threatened us, and for what gain? I sure as hell didn't walk away feeling like I should ever use them in that situation.
Just to be extra clear, by the time I answered the door they had my brother in custody. Everything after that was dealing with people that they have no reason to suspect of anything at all.
They showed up, knowing someone claiming mental instability was armed with a firearm. They detained everyone in the house to determine there was no threat to the lives of anyone there, and restrained them until everyone was accounted for / the situation could be worked out.
They are not responsible for your brothers mental health. That is your job. They ensured no one was killed. That is their job.
First off, no my job isn't my brothers mental health. No one is responsible for another adult. Try again.
Secondly they showed up, determined they did get the one person who might have been a threat (he was still on the phone with the suicide hotline) then got everyone else in the house up and detained for the crime of living in a house with someone they decided to harass.
Why do I say harass? Cause what exactly was the positive here? My brother didn't get any help at all. He flatly refused to go to the hospital and frankly I don't blame him. He had reached out for help and just got seriously burned.
The biggest problem though is you don't see the problem. My interactions with police? Guns shoved in my face for no damned reason. Why am I calling them again? I certainly don't like having guns shoved in my face and then being handcuffed. Not exactly my kink.
So knowing I am likely to be fucked with despite the situation being contained, despite there being no need for police presence, and despite having no involvement I am likely to end up being a potential suspect of a crime they are inventing what exactly is my motivation to work with them? They fucked up my whole night and left me no better off. Fucked my brother up to this day. Nah fuck that. I don't need officials terrorizing my family in the name of helping them. Y'all can keep going. The neighborhood can handle this shit. I really hate to think what would have happened if I was black.
And do you know how I know they fucked it all up? Cause there was one guy pleading our case. Saying this shit was unnecessary. He was the mental health specialist for the cops. The one they hired to deal with this shit. He apologized even to his credit. He was a cool dude. Damn shame the other dozen or so cops didn't listen.
But hey you want other stories? I got them too. The time I had a cop threaten to crack my skull open with a flashlight if I didn't leave the room. Or maybe professional? Like one local departments policy to arrest both the victim and the abuser on all domestic violence calls? I got plenty. I grew up poor and became a social worker. I got stories for days.
Yea, as we all know, the only two options here were guy inside house kills everyone as police drink coffee outside, or police use far too much force in response to suicide hotline phone call.
Ah, if only there were some sort of middle option, where police de-escalate a situation with someone who is currently experiencing mental distress and get them help.
it has been said multiple times in this thread, that when people who are marginalized feel that every other option available to them is being summarily ignored, that the only way to make people take notice is to start breaking shit, people will start breaking shit.
And you keep denying them that.
You can justify it any way you like, it will not help the cause. It doesn't matter if you think it's right, or just, or even simply understandable, it still will not help the cause.
You can romanticize it until you are blue in the face, but it will not help the cause.
Maybe black people can protest in a way that won't get widely criticised
Like, say, not standing for the National Anthem
Nobody could object to that
Maybe they could protest by voting out of office the people in charge of the police.
No, I think arguing that political action is an important, or perhaps the most important, way to respond to this issue of police violence especially at a local level, is a thing that belongs in this thread.
Typically, I assume that people on these forums know how democracy works, but.... you do know how democracy works, right? Minorities don't typically vote their way out of their own oppression, because... that's sorta how democracy is designed.
Man don't be a silly goose. You don't need to take that tone.
Minority citizens are a large and important constituency included in the political party in power in many of these local municipalities, and discussing why they continue to vote into office people who hire corrupt police that proceeded to murder them on the street is an excellent question to ask.
Do you really think that the mayor of Charlotte would still have her job if the minority community rose up in protest at The Ballot Box instead of on the streets? Minorities in major municipalities do have the political strength to move the needle and their allies would take notice if they were willing to use it.
Ch'yeah, I know, right? What's wrong with these people? Why don't they only live in areas where they're the majority population, stop having their votes suppressed by bullshit municipal and state laws, persistently have faith in electoral systems that have been rigged against them, and then all act in concert on election day to vote for the mayoral candidate who they can be absolutely sure will take on both entrenched city hall and police department institutions, but also fight back against racist state legislators?
It sounds so fucking easy now that you suggested it, Spool! Come the fuck on. You've participated in this thread (and its predecessors, like the Ferguson thread) enough to know we've gone over all these topics before.
I dont know what to tell you man. People still manage to elect Democrats in these cities despite all the barriers you mentioned, and the minority communittly breaks about 80% D or more, so....
Maybe these citizens need to find a Democrat who won't defend cops that kill them, since they're voting for one anyway, and demand that person be the candidate on pain of 0% minority turnout.
And yeah its not the magic solution but it sure as shit ought to be in the arsenal. Its more effective than burning down a gas station. I mean, not a single mayor has lost his job that i know of in the last 2 years after his employees killed an unarmed citizen of any race, nevermind a minority. Its pretty hard to argue that black people in, say, Chicago, have no political power, then look at Rahm's support on the South Side. Its not a lack of power, its a lack of will to use it.
part of the problem is gerrymandering on the D end (gerrymandering always leads to incestuous circle jerks), part of the problem is the way things like this actually break down (police forces are very difficult to reform even for a non corrupt determined mayor), part is some black towns under the jurisdiction of police of a place they have very little say in voting for. A bigger part is the rats nest occupying army mentality pushed all across the country in police departments
I mean it's no like electing a Republican into Baltimore or Chicago or Philly, someone blaming black people for being oppressed, would improve things
It doesn't matter what the City of Milwaukee does, they could change every single officer on the City's police to be shining paragons of virtue, but they will still have to deal with a large set of racist electors in the rest of the county continually electing David "Grab your guns, the police can't protect you" Clarke sheriff running police operations within their city.
Milwaukee are still fighting against the white flight communities that surround it, and that's not to mention a historically and currently actively hostile state government. Remember, Scott Walker was the elected Milwaukee County executive before becoming Governor. Ultimately, there is a very well founded argument that the city of Milwaukee and it's residents are being taxed without representation.
and milwaukee's suburbs like Oconomowoc are some of the most racist places in the entire country
It's usually illegal to enter homes or arrest people on the sole basis of an unverified phone call.
To their credit they were just banging on the door. Had my dad not gotten up when he did though they made it clear they were going to shoot our dogs to get him. How fun.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
Handcuffing 2 people for what? Showing up to the house at all why? And what positives for this? My brother no longer used the suicide hotline so that's a minus. He was reaching out for help and never again. It started his life long distrust of the whole mental health system.
So what was the purpose of pointing 6 shotguns at my face I guess is the question? And my dad? Or hell even my brother. They woke up the entire house, implicitly threatened us, and for what gain? I sure as hell didn't walk away feeling like I should ever use them in that situation.
Just to be extra clear, by the time I answered the door they had my brother in custody. Everything after that was dealing with people that they have no reason to suspect of anything at all.
They showed up, knowing someone claiming mental instability was armed with a firearm. They detained everyone in the house to determine there was no threat to the lives of anyone there, and restrained them until everyone was accounted for / the situation could be worked out.
They are not responsible for your brothers mental health. That is your job. They ensured no one was killed. That is their job.
lol
if you can't see pointing an almost comical amount of shotguns at literally everyone inside a house because someone called a suicide hotline as wrong and a dramatic escalation of the situation for really no reason, then I'm not sure where to even go with this conversation.
They responded to an unknown threat of violence against that household. All they knew was there was someone purportedly unstable in the house with a gun. They had no idea the number of people involved, so they detained everyone until they were the situation was secured. No one was injured.
You know what happens when they don't do that?
Someone ends up killing everyone in the house, and they get derided for not responding in a timely/useful manner.
No, that's flatly false. They responded to a person expressing suicidal thoughts (not even ideation just thoughts) with a potential gun in the house. This is Louisiana. Everyone has a gun in their house. They then had said threat neutralized, and continued detaining people they knew were uninvolved because... This isn't a situation with a lot of details missing trust me. They knew they had the person who was supposedly a threat. Everything after was just being a bunch of dicks.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Because murder-suicides happen so frequently that the only reasonable response is to go in SWAT-style to every single call to the suicide hotline that mentions a gun. My bet, you'd end up with more bodies than doing absolutely nothing, purely from itchy-fingered cops getting spooked by a "threatening" arm movement.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
Yeah, you're right. It's not like there are ever any occurrences like "murder-suicide", or something like that. But that doesn't exist.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
I mean, I would want the police to knock, ask the person who answered the door if the unstable person who called the suicide hotline had gotten a hold of a gun(if the cops knew that info), and then when told no, I'd like the cops to keep their guns out of their hands and come in and talk to the guy's brother and assess if they needed to arrest him for his own safety or the safety of his family.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream - and I hope you don't find this too crazy - is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were an emergency, calling the police department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if they're in danger, saying, "Whatever you do, don't call the police department!" That would be bad.
I mean, I would want the police to knock, ask the person who answered the door if the unstable person who called the suicide hotline had gotten a hold of a gun(if the cops knew that info), and then when told no, I'd like the cops to keep their guns out of their hands and come in and talk to the guy's brother and assess if they needed to arrest him for his own safety or the safety of his family.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
Fuck that.
*knock knock* "Police open up!"
*BANG GUNSHOT SOMEONE DEAD* / *BANG GUNSHOT THROUGH THE DOOR POLICE DEAD*
In an ideal world, yeah I agree with you. Having lost a friend to a murder-suicide (no police were involved unfortunately), I would rather someone get roughed up and have their evening ruined than risk getting killed.
And that scaredy pants "what if a thing that is not going to happen happens!" bullshit attitude that cops are taking on more every day is what's resulting in unarmed people being shot constantly.
I mean, I would want the police to knock, ask the person who answered the door if the unstable person who called the suicide hotline had gotten a hold of a gun(if the cops knew that info), and then when told no, I'd like the cops to keep their guns out of their hands and come in and talk to the guy's brother and assess if they needed to arrest him for his own safety or the safety of his family.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
Fuck that.
*knock knock* "Police open up!"
*BANG GUNSHOT SOMEONE DEAD* / *BANG GUNSHOT THROUGH THE DOOR POLICE DEAD*
In an ideal world, yeah I agree with you. Having lost a friend to a murder-suicide (no police were involved unfortunately), I would rather someone get roughed up and have their evening ruined than risk getting killed.
Or, you know, any member of his family could have had pretty much anything in their hand when they answered the door, and been shot by a cop who had too many cups of coffee that day.
I mean, I would want the police to knock, ask the person who answered the door if the unstable person who called the suicide hotline had gotten a hold of a gun(if the cops knew that info), and then when told no, I'd like the cops to keep their guns out of their hands and come in and talk to the guy's brother and assess if they needed to arrest him for his own safety or the safety of his family.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
Fuck that.
*knock knock* "Police open up!"
*BANG GUNSHOT SOMEONE DEAD* / *BANG GUNSHOT THROUGH THE DOOR POLICE DEAD*
In an ideal world, yeah I agree with you. Having lost a friend to a murder-suicide (no police were involved unfortunately), I would rather someone get roughed up and have their evening ruined than risk getting killed.
I am sorry you lost your friend, but your list of excuses tells a different story. First off, they did just knock. Cops knock a funny way. Notice I mentioned it in my story even. I wasn't surprised by police though the guns were a bit much. So the idea that they were worried about getting shot is blown out of the water here. That fear would mean a breach, not knocking and hoping everyone comes to the door.
Secondly you tried deflecting blame on us. I have been in the field to long for that to even have a chance to work, but you sure went there. This will be more important in summary, but it's worth noting on its own.
Thirdly you have continued to ignore inconvenient facts and touted on your own version of the story. Any fear of a murder suicide were abated when they got the "suspect." The suspect who was openly expressing his every thought and desire to another human being in hopes of not acting on them. Any risk to us would have been disclosed (spoiler: he wasn't homicidal) and reported. So again this makes no sense.
Finally we have the one officer who did say it was all messed up. The guy trained and specializing in precisely this situation. He even said they fucked it all up.
What we have is a pattern of any excuse to make it not the cops fault. This happens when it will never be you who is on the other end of a swarm of shotguns. This happens a lot. Reporters start it and then people finish it. Without conclusive evidence it was wrong (and sorry guys we have that here) there is no way to make it stick in the public eye.
To bring this more on topic (and I am sorry we got derailed here I did not think this was a controversial story) this is why poor communities don't trust cops. Take out the racism and you still have shitty experiences making you fear them more than anything. One cop thought I was "going for a weapon" and I would not be hear to even tell the story. That shit sticks with you.
So now I don't involve cops unless I am ok with someone dying. Unless the circumstance literally means someone might die I just resolve it myself. My friends growing up do the same. This includes the ones that are now cops. These are not isolated incidents that reflect well on the department, but there is no political will to change it. Show people being good cops and shit cann change. Till then yeah what was said earlier is right. Poor people don't call the cops unless escalation is virtually impossible.
The biggest hurdle? Cops murdering people and then just sweeping it under the rug. The blue wall needs to come down or we all have to accept many communities just won't deal with the police. That means murderers go free, and I don't like that. It means my kid won't get a shotgun shoved in her face that on the wrong day goes off. I like that. I choose that over calling it in. I will feel bad, but my family will be safe.
I mean, I would want the police to knock, ask the person who answered the door if the unstable person who called the suicide hotline had gotten a hold of a gun(if the cops knew that info), and then when told no, I'd like the cops to keep their guns out of their hands and come in and talk to the guy's brother and assess if they needed to arrest him for his own safety or the safety of his family.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
Fuck that.
*knock knock* "Police open up!"
*BANG GUNSHOT SOMEONE DEAD* / *BANG GUNSHOT THROUGH THE DOOR POLICE DEAD*
In an ideal world, yeah I agree with you. Having lost a friend to a murder-suicide (no police were involved unfortunately), I would rather someone get roughed up and have their evening ruined than risk getting killed.
Or, you know, any member of his family could have had pretty much anything in their hand when they answered the door, and been shot by a cop who had too many cups of coffee that day.
Including a cellphone because they felt that they needed the comfort of being able to quickly contact the outside world.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Jesus, I didn't realise that "the cops shouldn't do an armed entry to a house after someone calls the suicide hotline" would be a controversial statement. That seemed, like, so obvious. Cause you know, the reason there are suicide hotlines is to help people with suicidal thoughts, not to have the cops kick the door in and shove guns in the faces of everyone they live with.
I mean, I would want the police to knock, ask the person who answered the door if the unstable person who called the suicide hotline had gotten a hold of a gun(if the cops knew that info), and then when told no, I'd like the cops to keep their guns out of their hands and come in and talk to the guy's brother and assess if they needed to arrest him for his own safety or the safety of his family.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
Fuck that.
*knock knock* "Police open up!"
*BANG GUNSHOT SOMEONE DEAD* / *BANG GUNSHOT THROUGH THE DOOR POLICE DEAD*
In an ideal world, yeah I agree with you. Having lost a friend to a murder-suicide (no police were involved unfortunately), I would rather someone get roughed up and have their evening ruined than risk getting killed.
What you'd rather isn't really relevant in a discussion of why people other than you don't call the cops.
If the police really do accept more risk to themselves to act in a non-aggressive fashion, compensate them for it, either in direct pay or in terms of increased benefits to survivors (like, continuing to pay them what the officer would have made as if they were still alive through retirement age, or something).
I think half the problem comes from the underfunding of municipal government, both in terms of bullshit fines and civil forfeiture, in not being able to hire good people because you don't pay enough, but also in police being trigger happy to keep from dying or even being wounded because they know their benefits can't cover themselves or their loved ones.
You roll the dice when you call the cops, you roll the dice when you don't call the cops. I'd say that if you live in a crime prevalent area you'd probably sustain more risk of harm from not calling the cops. But police misconduct does lead people to make an erroneous policy
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The lesson is unless you are under lethal threat from a family member, and sometimes not even then, don't call the police. LE will almost always escalate and almost always make it worse.
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
Posts
However, everything he writes is based around emotion and if the reader is looking for facts and data he's really fucking hard to parse.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
part of the problem is gerrymandering on the D end (gerrymandering always leads to incestuous circle jerks), part of the problem is the way things like this actually break down (police forces are very difficult to reform even for a non corrupt determined mayor), part is some black towns under the jurisdiction of police of a place they have very little say in voting for. A bigger part is the rats nest occupying army mentality pushed all across the country in police departments
I mean it's no like electing a Republican into Baltimore or Chicago or Philly, someone blaming black people for being oppressed, would improve things
This isn't true, and hysterical proclamations like this will make people tune out when you have something accurate to say.
It doesn't matter what the City of Milwaukee does, they could change every single officer on the City's police to be shining paragons of virtue, but they will still have to deal with a large set of racist electors in the rest of the county continually electing David "Grab your guns, the police can't protect you" Clarke sheriff running police operations within their city.
Milwaukee are still fighting against the white flight communities that surround it, and that's not to mention a historically and currently actively hostile state government. Remember, Scott Walker was the elected Milwaukee County executive before becoming Governor. Ultimately, there is a very well founded argument that the city of Milwaukee and it's residents are being taxed without representation.
This is the reality in poor communities. I am sorry if you find that so distressing you have to deny the reality. It just is life on the lower end though. Cops just don't solve problems for a large swath of the US. They create new ones. When that changes a lot will start to get better, but that can't start until cops get over their feelings being hurt due to an earned reputation.
True enough. But unfortunately, there are enough people thinking that way.
This is what I am talking about when I say that incidents like Ferguson and Tulsa are not merely about race. If there are bad people in the streets that are not reported to the police because of a lack of trust in the responding officers or faith in the system, we are going to have a lot more people in the streets that should be in hospitals or the prison system.
But even then, the subject has to have crossed a certain line to even be held. That incident I mentioned on the last page about the young man with the shotgun would have been resolved with a smaller body count if the police had been able to hold him because of the threat he posed to his family.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
I find this almost impossible to believe.
Poor people are disproportionately victims of violent crime, and gang violence.
Poor people undergoing mental health crisis because they don't have the support of the medical system are disproportionately dealt with by getting sectioned by police because they're a risk to themselves and others.
I get that you read a few articles online, but people at the point of needing to be sectioned because they're a threat to themselves and others without state intervention and 'family dealing with them' meet much worse outcomes statistically.
And hell there's nothing predators like more than keeping police and the state out of a situation and the community dealing with it in house.
Toronto police again turn victim into suspect: Cole
Stuff like this is also why people stop calling the police. Some communities have not been calling the police for a long time before this recent spate of highly publicized police shootings, for quiet reasons invisible to outsiders.
Let me tell you a story. This was years ago back when I was in undergrad and my older brother and I still lived at home. He called the suicide hotline. He stated there was a gun in the house and he knew where to find it. He didn't but he thought he did. All this happens unknown to me. My part in the story comes much later.
So I am about to go to sleep when I hear someone cop knocking on my door. Annoyed I go an answer it. A half dozen shotguns are trained on me and they tell me to show my hands. I am then handcuffed next to my brother while they keep knocking to get my dad awake and repeat the process. They then tell us to maybe take him to the hospital or something and leave. Between 6 and a dozen cop cars.
So you see this isn't me reading online stories and drawing conclusions from sensationalized media sources. This is me living my life and knowing my community. I don't call the police because everytime they have been involved in my life they have made shit so much worse it's unbelievable. And I used to work in parallel with them on many investigations.
Police shit on poor people. That's just life. Accept it or dont, but it's true.
But you are right that is what predators want. So maybe the cops should do their damn job and rebuild the relationship. Even if it means actually serving people. Maybe even if it means kissing the ass of people the police have fucked over to rebuild that relationship. There is a reason snitching is seen as a bad thing, and it ain't cause of criminals.
Wait, what did the police do wrong?
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Handcuffing 2 people for what? Showing up to the house at all why? And what positives for this? My brother no longer used the suicide hotline so that's a minus. He was reaching out for help and never again. It started his life long distrust of the whole mental health system.
So what was the purpose of pointing 6 shotguns at my face I guess is the question? And my dad? Or hell even my brother. They woke up the entire house, implicitly threatened us, and for what gain? I sure as hell didn't walk away feeling like I should ever use them in that situation.
Just to be extra clear, by the time I answered the door they had my brother in custody. Everything after that was dealing with people that they have no reason to suspect of anything at all.
If I have a problem with a mentally ill person's behavior then I am probably not going to call the police, not unless it is an extremely dangerous situation.
They showed up, knowing someone claiming mental instability was armed with a firearm. They detained everyone in the house to determine there was no threat to the lives of anyone there, and restrained them until everyone was accounted for / the situation could be worked out.
They are not responsible for your brothers mental health. That is your job. They ensured no one was killed. That is their job.
...what. they showed up, threatened lethal force than left. Without doing anything useful.
lol
if you can't see pointing an almost comical amount of shotguns at literally everyone inside a house because someone called a suicide hotline as wrong and a dramatic escalation of the situation for really no reason, then I'm not sure where to even go with this conversation.
Okay, different data interpretation for different people.
Anyway, not every snake is poisonous, but enough of them are for people to be afraid of them.
Not every police department is corrupt, incompetent, and/or prejudice, but enough of them are for people to not ask for help if and when they need it.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
They responded to an unknown threat of violence against that household. All they knew was there was someone purportedly unstable in the house with a gun. They had no idea the number of people involved, so they detained everyone until they were the situation was secured. No one was injured.
You know what happens when they don't do that?
Someone ends up killing everyone in the house, and they get derided for not responding in a timely/useful manner.
First off, no my job isn't my brothers mental health. No one is responsible for another adult. Try again.
Secondly they showed up, determined they did get the one person who might have been a threat (he was still on the phone with the suicide hotline) then got everyone else in the house up and detained for the crime of living in a house with someone they decided to harass.
Why do I say harass? Cause what exactly was the positive here? My brother didn't get any help at all. He flatly refused to go to the hospital and frankly I don't blame him. He had reached out for help and just got seriously burned.
The biggest problem though is you don't see the problem. My interactions with police? Guns shoved in my face for no damned reason. Why am I calling them again? I certainly don't like having guns shoved in my face and then being handcuffed. Not exactly my kink.
So knowing I am likely to be fucked with despite the situation being contained, despite there being no need for police presence, and despite having no involvement I am likely to end up being a potential suspect of a crime they are inventing what exactly is my motivation to work with them? They fucked up my whole night and left me no better off. Fucked my brother up to this day. Nah fuck that. I don't need officials terrorizing my family in the name of helping them. Y'all can keep going. The neighborhood can handle this shit. I really hate to think what would have happened if I was black.
And do you know how I know they fucked it all up? Cause there was one guy pleading our case. Saying this shit was unnecessary. He was the mental health specialist for the cops. The one they hired to deal with this shit. He apologized even to his credit. He was a cool dude. Damn shame the other dozen or so cops didn't listen.
But hey you want other stories? I got them too. The time I had a cop threaten to crack my skull open with a flashlight if I didn't leave the room. Or maybe professional? Like one local departments policy to arrest both the victim and the abuser on all domestic violence calls? I got plenty. I grew up poor and became a social worker. I got stories for days.
Ah, if only there were some sort of middle option, where police de-escalate a situation with someone who is currently experiencing mental distress and get them help.
Alas!
and milwaukee's suburbs like Oconomowoc are some of the most racist places in the entire country
To their credit they were just banging on the door. Had my dad not gotten up when he did though they made it clear they were going to shoot our dogs to get him. How fun.
No, that's flatly false. They responded to a person expressing suicidal thoughts (not even ideation just thoughts) with a potential gun in the house. This is Louisiana. Everyone has a gun in their house. They then had said threat neutralized, and continued detaining people they knew were uninvolved because... This isn't a situation with a lot of details missing trust me. They knew they had the person who was supposedly a threat. Everything after was just being a bunch of dicks.
Because murder-suicides happen so frequently that the only reasonable response is to go in SWAT-style to every single call to the suicide hotline that mentions a gun. My bet, you'd end up with more bodies than doing absolutely nothing, purely from itchy-fingered cops getting spooked by a "threatening" arm movement.
Actually you are correct despite your sarcasm. People who are on the suicide hotline often are getting the help they need and don't commit the acts. Its why we have it.
And I am sorry your brother didn't get the help he needed, and that you had a bad experience.
But all things taken into account, that is not a bad police story. That is them reacting exactly how I would want them to react to a situation like that. They went in, handled the situation swiftly, and no one was hurt.
I could see this whole thing playing out without any guns out and without any handcuffs, and it wouldn't have been any harder to do. What it sounds like is a bunch of cops who feel like badasses when they get to aim their shotguns at people and yell orders out.
Fuck that.
*knock knock* "Police open up!"
*BANG GUNSHOT SOMEONE DEAD* / *BANG GUNSHOT THROUGH THE DOOR POLICE DEAD*
In an ideal world, yeah I agree with you. Having lost a friend to a murder-suicide (no police were involved unfortunately), I would rather someone get roughed up and have their evening ruined than risk getting killed.
Or, you know, any member of his family could have had pretty much anything in their hand when they answered the door, and been shot by a cop who had too many cups of coffee that day.
I am sorry you lost your friend, but your list of excuses tells a different story. First off, they did just knock. Cops knock a funny way. Notice I mentioned it in my story even. I wasn't surprised by police though the guns were a bit much. So the idea that they were worried about getting shot is blown out of the water here. That fear would mean a breach, not knocking and hoping everyone comes to the door.
Secondly you tried deflecting blame on us. I have been in the field to long for that to even have a chance to work, but you sure went there. This will be more important in summary, but it's worth noting on its own.
Thirdly you have continued to ignore inconvenient facts and touted on your own version of the story. Any fear of a murder suicide were abated when they got the "suspect." The suspect who was openly expressing his every thought and desire to another human being in hopes of not acting on them. Any risk to us would have been disclosed (spoiler: he wasn't homicidal) and reported. So again this makes no sense.
Finally we have the one officer who did say it was all messed up. The guy trained and specializing in precisely this situation. He even said they fucked it all up.
What we have is a pattern of any excuse to make it not the cops fault. This happens when it will never be you who is on the other end of a swarm of shotguns. This happens a lot. Reporters start it and then people finish it. Without conclusive evidence it was wrong (and sorry guys we have that here) there is no way to make it stick in the public eye.
To bring this more on topic (and I am sorry we got derailed here I did not think this was a controversial story) this is why poor communities don't trust cops. Take out the racism and you still have shitty experiences making you fear them more than anything. One cop thought I was "going for a weapon" and I would not be hear to even tell the story. That shit sticks with you.
So now I don't involve cops unless I am ok with someone dying. Unless the circumstance literally means someone might die I just resolve it myself. My friends growing up do the same. This includes the ones that are now cops. These are not isolated incidents that reflect well on the department, but there is no political will to change it. Show people being good cops and shit cann change. Till then yeah what was said earlier is right. Poor people don't call the cops unless escalation is virtually impossible.
The biggest hurdle? Cops murdering people and then just sweeping it under the rug. The blue wall needs to come down or we all have to accept many communities just won't deal with the police. That means murderers go free, and I don't like that. It means my kid won't get a shotgun shoved in her face that on the wrong day goes off. I like that. I choose that over calling it in. I will feel bad, but my family will be safe.
Including a cellphone because they felt that they needed the comfort of being able to quickly contact the outside world.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
What you'd rather isn't really relevant in a discussion of why people other than you don't call the cops.
Hence why BLM is focusing much of their protests on unarmed citizens complying with police orders and surrendering who still wind up dead.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
I think half the problem comes from the underfunding of municipal government, both in terms of bullshit fines and civil forfeiture, in not being able to hire good people because you don't pay enough, but also in police being trigger happy to keep from dying or even being wounded because they know their benefits can't cover themselves or their loved ones.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
People tune out anyway.