There was an incident in Brooklyn (I think) about ten years ago of some cops shooting at some black guys in their car. Something like fifty shots fired and one of the officers emptied his gun, reloaded, emptied it again, reloaded, and fired a few more shots.
I can never seem to remember the name if the incident, but it was a pretty big deal. The guys left a night club after a kind-of-sort-of fight. The cops showed up and killed two of them because they were going to their car to get a gun. Which I think didn't exist, of course.
Historically, in spite of any training, the police are quite dangerous when it comes to gun safety.
I don't know why this affected me as much as it did; police being awful and being systemically allowed and incentivized to be awful is like my #2 issue on my political totem pole; this story is just so normal
I can't believe how completely they matter-of-factly destroyed these poor people's lives and how routine this kind of banal monstrosity is
they wreck a home, arrest an innocent man, and steal his money
and the people responsible excuse themselves from this obvious miscarriage with the war crimes excuse of just doing their jobs
I don't think I've ever wept from reading something before; nobody even died, it's just, their lives were routinely obliterated
That last screenshot where the LEO initially accuses the resident of being involved in a crime, and then backtracking, is indicative of one of the major problems with LEO "culture": the assumption that every individual is committing a crime and they just have to find the proof. It's also a way they reinforce that they've done nothing wrong.
I wonder if "police insurance" would be a legal product to sell.
One of the bigger eye opening moments growing up was realizing that most of my black friends had "legal insurance." None of them did anything illegal, but their families made sure that they could afford an attorney at any time.
I wonder if "police insurance" would be a legal product to sell.
One of the bigger eye opening moments growing up was realizing that most of my black friends had "legal insurance." None of them did anything illegal, but their families made sure that they could afford an attorney at any time.
Are you referring to Legal Shield? Because that's a pyramid scheme.
Doesn't surprise me that they would prey on the black community, though.
Organize a club in Alaska to pre-order marijuana when its legalized, 54 years
Gun down a surrendering unarmed civilian, no charge
It's probably not useful to try and analyze the criminal justice system based on cherry-picked individual outcomes.
Especially since that middle one hasn't even happened yet.
Events that keep happening are not anomalies, they're patterns.
To my knowledge only one of those three is an event that keeps on happening (the last one).
Unless I'm mistaken, the first one is an outlier...do sentences for sexual assault after a trial conviction not average more than six months? As for the middle one, has there been a rash of such cases I'm unaware of?
Loren, that story is like seeing an onion of injustice unwrapped layer by layer. And not in the sense of righting the injustices, just in the sense of being able to see them. Your emotional reaction is understandable.
That last screenshot where the LEO initially accuses the resident of being involved in a crime, and then backtracking, is indicative of one of the major problems with LEO "culture": the assumption that every individual is committing a crime and they just have to find the proof. It's also a way they reinforce that they've done nothing wrong.
It may be paranoia to state this but we are guilty of something at all times. The law has become so complex and intricate that you probably break several laws just driving to work. To the point, it is as you state it. They are guilty of something, just not the thing the cops were looking for. That's where the DAs come in and tear people's lives apart to justify the raid. This isn't a new phenomenon. There's been a number of books published about it.
Martini_Philosopher on
All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
Rich/famous/upper class white teens getting of rape charges with a slap on the wrist. Pattern.
Black people getting absurd sentences for drug charges. Pattern.
Cops not getting even a slap on the wrist for murdering people while on/off duty. Pattern.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Rich/famous/upper class white teens getting of rape charges with a slap on the wrist. Pattern.
Black people getting absurd sentences for drug charges. Pattern.
Cops not getting even a slap on the wrist for murdering people while on/off duty. Pattern.
Hey. If you want to "know" you'd just have to check out the Life-without-Parole statistics. 6% of the these are for non-violent crimes, and a very significant portion of those are black and got "three strikes" for such crimes as having trace amounts of cocaine in clothes pockets or possession of drug paraphenalia (when previous drug arrests were decades ago).
Or to take a specific case. Robert Booker, who got his LWOP because the prosecutor was an ass and filed two separate charges for the same arrest and thus triggering a three-strikes mechanisms.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Hey. If you want to "know" you'd just have to check out the Life-without-Parole statistics. 6% of the these are for non-violent crimes, and a very significant portion of those are black and got "three strikes" for such crimes as having trace amounts of cocaine in clothes pockets or possession of drug paraphenalia (when previous drug arrests were decades ago).
Or to take a specific case. Robert Booker, who got his LWOP because the prosecutor was an ass and filed two separate charges for the same arrest and thus triggering a three-strikes mechanisms.
I never suggested there wasn't racial disparity in the criminal justice system.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
As anyone can tell, I'm not the biggest fan of black lives matter, but one of the stupidest critiques (this including a bunch of old black dudes that yelled at their protest this past Sunday in Seattle) is that protesting eliminates them from taking any other action.
Like a unit in a turn based game, it's impossible for a group of black teens to clean up a park in the morning, shower and eat at noon, and then politely march in the middle of 1st avenue in the evening.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
I get what you're saying, I just think it's disingenuous bullshit to go "Hey, if you think black lives matter then you have to protest at the site of black on black crimes too!"
Protesting the police treatment of black people isn't the only thing that needs to happen, but it's surely one of them. Hell, if police and the poor black communities had the type of relationship where the people could actually trust the police and thought they were on their side, there might be a few less disenfranchised youth that decide to go the criminal route and get swept up in that us vs. them mentality. That's obviously only the tip of the iceberg too, but it's something.
It's such a sad thing to know that the same failed prohibition we tried with alcohol (which also created gangs and crime and a secondary illegal economy) has done this to our poorest communities, but we're going to suffer another 50+ years before drug prohibition is recognized as the same failed bullshit and we start to repair it.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
I get what you're saying, I just think it's disingenuous bullshit to go "Hey, if you think black lives matter then you have to protest at the site of black on black crimes too!"
Protesting the police treatment of black people isn't the only thing that needs to happen, but it's surely one of them. Hell, if police and the poor black communities had the type of relationship where the people could actually trust the police and thought they were on their side, there might be a few less disenfranchised youth that decide to go the criminal route and get swept up in that us vs. them mentality. That's obviously only the tip of the iceberg too, but it's something.
Agreed! I think it is definitely something they could at least address in a minor fashion to increase good will/public opinion towards their group though, it would shut up the detractors (at least on that front).
It's such a sad thing to know that the same failed prohibition we tried with alcohol (which also created gangs and crime and a secondary illegal economy) has done this to our poorest communities, but we're going to suffer another 50+ years before drug prohibition is recognized as the same failed bullshit and we start to repair it.
Eh, disagree on this, unless you are specifically referring to weed. Most of that shit is illegal because of the risks it poses to yourself and/or others.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
I get what you're saying, I just think it's disingenuous bullshit to go "Hey, if you think black lives matter then you have to protest at the site of black on black crimes too!"
Protesting the police treatment of black people isn't the only thing that needs to happen, but it's surely one of them. Hell, if police and the poor black communities had the type of relationship where the people could actually trust the police and thought they were on their side, there might be a few less disenfranchised youth that decide to go the criminal route and get swept up in that us vs. them mentality. That's obviously only the tip of the iceberg too, but it's something.
Agreed! I think it is definitely something they could at least address in a minor fashion to increase good will/public opinion towards their group though, it would shut up the detractors (at least on that front).
It's such a sad thing to know that the same failed prohibition we tried with alcohol (which also created gangs and crime and a secondary illegal economy) has done this to our poorest communities, but we're going to suffer another 50+ years before drug prohibition is recognized as the same failed bullshit and we start to repair it.
Eh, disagree on this, unless you are specifically referring to weed. Most of that shit is illegal because of the risks it poses to yourself and/or others.
A more accurate statement would be that classifying weed as a schedule 1 drug and the laws that followed that unfairly targeted and punished people of color.
While the war on drugs compounded the unfair targeting and punishment.
Hello, actually medical doctor here. The personal risks of using illegal drugs are no higher than alcohol, except when the drugs have been unknowingly adulterated, which wouldn't happen if they were regulated. The social costs of illegal drug use are far, far less than alcohol, and are close to zero if you exclude the shit that only happens BECAUSE they are illegal like gang violence (but are less than alcohol even if you don't). You can't even begin to have a rational discussion of drug regulation until you agree with that. It is medically indisputable.
These drugs most certainly are not illegal because of their associated risks. It is pure moralistic bullshit that conveniently disproportionately targets poor and minorities.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
I get what you're saying, I just think it's disingenuous bullshit to go "Hey, if you think black lives matter then you have to protest at the site of black on black crimes too!"
Protesting the police treatment of black people isn't the only thing that needs to happen, but it's surely one of them. Hell, if police and the poor black communities had the type of relationship where the people could actually trust the police and thought they were on their side, there might be a few less disenfranchised youth that decide to go the criminal route and get swept up in that us vs. them mentality. That's obviously only the tip of the iceberg too, but it's something.
Agreed! I think it is definitely something they could at least address in a minor fashion to increase good will/public opinion towards their group though, it would shut up the detractors (at least on that front).
I strongly disagree. Detractors of things like "Black people don't deserve to get shot" aren't the kind of people who respond to evidence.
It's such a sad thing to know that the same failed prohibition we tried with alcohol (which also created gangs and crime and a secondary illegal economy) has done this to our poorest communities, but we're going to suffer another 50+ years before drug prohibition is recognized as the same failed bullshit and we start to repair it.
Eh, disagree on this, unless you are specifically referring to weed. Most of that shit is illegal because of the risks it poses to yourself and/or others.
We don't schedule drugs with respect to their real world effects. Alcohol is consistently, clearly dangerous, but it's nowhere near as controlled as even some common ADHD medications.
Besides, it being dangerous has nothing to do with whether or not prohibition works. Treating drug addiction as a health problem instead of a criminal problem is way more effective. Programs that give users cleaner doses with sterile needles and puts them in contact with treatment options are way more successful than revolving door drug arrests.
I have no problem with disagreement, but no, I am for decriminalization of all drugs. Weed is a great first step. But I firmly believe that all drugs, including heroin and the rest should be decriminalized. Spend the money you're spending on busting users on needle exchanges and public rehab facilities for people who want help.
People who are addicts and don't want help are going to kill themselves with meth and heroin whether or not it's illegal. Throwing them in prison for it helps nobody. Abusing alcohol is just as dangerous or worse than abusing heroin. And all the propaganda about how you'll get addicted the first time you take it is bullshit too. If you've ever had morphine in a hospital (I have) then you've already functionally had heroin, and if you're like me, you didn't instantly become an addict. It's just not how it works.
I don't want to get too off track because this isn't the thread for it. I already know I'm in a small minority in terms of my beliefs on drugs, and I'm not trying to force my opinions on others.
Nothing exasperates me more than a conversation with somebody who spouts off bullshit like "all black people have to do is start caring about education and the core family unit and stop doing crime and they'll be fine. Look at the asian american community, they're a minority too!"
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
I get what you're saying, I just think it's disingenuous bullshit to go "Hey, if you think black lives matter then you have to protest at the site of black on black crimes too!"
Protesting the police treatment of black people isn't the only thing that needs to happen, but it's surely one of them. Hell, if police and the poor black communities had the type of relationship where the people could actually trust the police and thought they were on their side, there might be a few less disenfranchised youth that decide to go the criminal route and get swept up in that us vs. them mentality. That's obviously only the tip of the iceberg too, but it's something.
Agreed! I think it is definitely something they could at least address in a minor fashion to increase good will/public opinion towards their group though, it would shut up the detractors (at least on that front).
I strongly disagree. Detractors of things like "Black people don't deserve to get shot" aren't the kind of people who respond to evidence.
It's such a sad thing to know that the same failed prohibition we tried with alcohol (which also created gangs and crime and a secondary illegal economy) has done this to our poorest communities, but we're going to suffer another 50+ years before drug prohibition is recognized as the same failed bullshit and we start to repair it.
Eh, disagree on this, unless you are specifically referring to weed. Most of that shit is illegal because of the risks it poses to yourself and/or others.
We don't schedule drugs with respect to their real world effects. Alcohol is consistently, clearly dangerous, but it's nowhere near as controlled as even some common ADHD medications.
Besides, it being dangerous has nothing to do with whether or not prohibition works. Treating drug addiction as a health problem instead of a criminal problem is way more effective. Programs that give users cleaner doses with sterile needles and puts them in contact with treatment options are way more successful than revolving door drug arrests.
Sorry, you are right, let me rephrase that. I was just responding to Josh's post.
I would have no objections towards (and agree with!) changes of how we deal with users. Don't criminalize the people using the substance, get them help to get off of it. However it should stay illegal to sell, and go after the people selling it.
Pysck0, link me to a medical journal telling me how they are perfectly safe to use. Since you are claiming that PCP was apparently removed from use as a pharmaceutical drug, due to impure elements being introduced to it via the medical industry? (Do we have a thread for this we could take the discussion to instead?)
Pysck0, link me to a medical journal telling me how they are perfectly safe to use. Since you are claiming that PCP was apparently removed from use as a pharmaceutical drug, due to impure elements being introduced to it via the medical industry? (Do we have a thread for this we could take the discussion to instead?)
Less harmful than alcohol =/= perfectly safe to use.
This talks about the purely toxic effects of the drugs to the individual. Not familiar with the journal, but it is open access. Check the citations for a few dozen more, including evaluations of the social costs of the drugs.
This is shit we are literally taught in our first year of medical school, it is that basic and that essential to actually understanding and treating drug abuse and addiction.
Posts
Yeah.
That's it.
I can't believe how completely they matter-of-factly destroyed these poor people's lives and how routine this kind of banal monstrosity is
they wreck a home, arrest an innocent man, and steal his money
and the people responsible excuse themselves from this obvious miscarriage with the war crimes excuse of just doing their jobs
I don't think I've ever wept from reading something before; nobody even died, it's just, their lives were routinely obliterated
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/09/30/do-not-resist-a-chilling-look-at-the-normalization-of-warrior-cops/
(spoiled for screenshots of the article; go to the link though, the conclusion is just stomach-churning)
One of the bigger eye opening moments growing up was realizing that most of my black friends had "legal insurance." None of them did anything illegal, but their families made sure that they could afford an attorney at any time.
Are you referring to Legal Shield? Because that's a pyramid scheme.
Doesn't surprise me that they would prey on the black community, though.
Organize a club in Alaska to pre-order marijuana when its legalized, 54 years
Gun down a surrendering unarmed civilian, no charge
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
It's probably not useful to try and analyze the criminal justice system based on cherry-picked individual outcomes.
Especially since that middle one hasn't even happened yet.
Events that keep happening are not anomalies, they're patterns.
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Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
To my knowledge only one of those three is an event that keeps on happening (the last one).
Unless I'm mistaken, the first one is an outlier...do sentences for sexual assault after a trial conviction not average more than six months? As for the middle one, has there been a rash of such cases I'm unaware of?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/04/reporter-who-said-f-it-live-on-air-faces-54-years-in-prison-6169658/
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
It may be paranoia to state this but we are guilty of something at all times. The law has become so complex and intricate that you probably break several laws just driving to work. To the point, it is as you state it. They are guilty of something, just not the thing the cops were looking for. That's where the DAs come in and tear people's lives apart to justify the raid. This isn't a new phenomenon. There's been a number of books published about it.
Your link specifically refutes your claim.
Indeed.
Even if that outcome were to occur (hint: it hasn't and it won't), that's a one-off freak case. Precisely why it's news.
What? She organized her club, is being charged and threatened with 54 years. I have supporting link of these facts.
What was my claim?
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Reread the post:
Two of these are final outcomes. That implies that the third is as well, but nobody has gotten 54 years for that (and nobody will).
And the first two are still outliers. The third, unfortunately, isn't...but comparing it to such outliers is a weak argument.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Black people getting absurd sentences for drug charges. Pattern.
Cops not getting even a slap on the wrist for murdering people while on/off duty. Pattern.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Sure. You showed me.
Or to take a specific case. Robert Booker, who got his LWOP because the prosecutor was an ass and filed two separate charges for the same arrest and thus triggering a three-strikes mechanisms.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
I never suggested there wasn't racial disparity in the criminal justice system.
Seriously, the white Mukilteo community was calling 911 over the murder of three people at a party and 911 kept asking them if this was a joke.
Then there's that African American kid who tried to call 911 for his dying mother and was rebuked.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Like, sure it sounds so simple when you completely ignore the socioeconomic situation and what daily life is like for the people in those communities.
Firstly, not disagreeing with your point.
Secondly, it sounded like his point was, why is the group focusing entirely on just the police aspect, rather than both/all. Not the, "cleanup your own community and all problems go away" aspect.
As anyone can tell, I'm not the biggest fan of black lives matter, but one of the stupidest critiques (this including a bunch of old black dudes that yelled at their protest this past Sunday in Seattle) is that protesting eliminates them from taking any other action.
Like a unit in a turn based game, it's impossible for a group of black teens to clean up a park in the morning, shower and eat at noon, and then politely march in the middle of 1st avenue in the evening.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
I get what you're saying, I just think it's disingenuous bullshit to go "Hey, if you think black lives matter then you have to protest at the site of black on black crimes too!"
Protesting the police treatment of black people isn't the only thing that needs to happen, but it's surely one of them. Hell, if police and the poor black communities had the type of relationship where the people could actually trust the police and thought they were on their side, there might be a few less disenfranchised youth that decide to go the criminal route and get swept up in that us vs. them mentality. That's obviously only the tip of the iceberg too, but it's something.
It's such a sad thing to know that the same failed prohibition we tried with alcohol (which also created gangs and crime and a secondary illegal economy) has done this to our poorest communities, but we're going to suffer another 50+ years before drug prohibition is recognized as the same failed bullshit and we start to repair it.
Agreed! I think it is definitely something they could at least address in a minor fashion to increase good will/public opinion towards their group though, it would shut up the detractors (at least on that front).
Eh, disagree on this, unless you are specifically referring to weed. Most of that shit is illegal because of the risks it poses to yourself and/or others.
A more accurate statement would be that classifying weed as a schedule 1 drug and the laws that followed that unfairly targeted and punished people of color.
While the war on drugs compounded the unfair targeting and punishment.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
These drugs most certainly are not illegal because of their associated risks. It is pure moralistic bullshit that conveniently disproportionately targets poor and minorities.
We don't schedule drugs with respect to their real world effects. Alcohol is consistently, clearly dangerous, but it's nowhere near as controlled as even some common ADHD medications.
Besides, it being dangerous has nothing to do with whether or not prohibition works. Treating drug addiction as a health problem instead of a criminal problem is way more effective. Programs that give users cleaner doses with sterile needles and puts them in contact with treatment options are way more successful than revolving door drug arrests.
People who are addicts and don't want help are going to kill themselves with meth and heroin whether or not it's illegal. Throwing them in prison for it helps nobody. Abusing alcohol is just as dangerous or worse than abusing heroin. And all the propaganda about how you'll get addicted the first time you take it is bullshit too. If you've ever had morphine in a hospital (I have) then you've already functionally had heroin, and if you're like me, you didn't instantly become an addict. It's just not how it works.
I don't want to get too off track because this isn't the thread for it. I already know I'm in a small minority in terms of my beliefs on drugs, and I'm not trying to force my opinions on others.
Sorry, you are right, let me rephrase that. I was just responding to Josh's post.
I would have no objections towards (and agree with!) changes of how we deal with users. Don't criminalize the people using the substance, get them help to get off of it. However it should stay illegal to sell, and go after the people selling it.
Pysck0, link me to a medical journal telling me how they are perfectly safe to use. Since you are claiming that PCP was apparently removed from use as a pharmaceutical drug, due to impure elements being introduced to it via the medical industry? (Do we have a thread for this we could take the discussion to instead?)
Less harmful than alcohol =/= perfectly safe to use.
Alcohol is pretty damn harmful.
This talks about the purely toxic effects of the drugs to the individual. Not familiar with the journal, but it is open access. Check the citations for a few dozen more, including evaluations of the social costs of the drugs.
This is shit we are literally taught in our first year of medical school, it is that basic and that essential to actually understanding and treating drug abuse and addiction.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy