Most of First Class is great. It's just that the not-great parts are pretty bad.
Like running headlong into Black Dude Dies First as if it'S 1975.
Or the weird love triangle.
Or Xavier erasing Moira's memory because it was convenient.
Or the hamfest climax.
But I could go for a whole movie of Nazi Hunter Magneto. They could even do a modern day sequel!
Yeah, this is pretty close to my feeling about it. It's a mostly well-executed movie that is marred by some questionable plot and casting choices.
I do like that McAvoy's Xavier is portrayed as being more of an arrogant prick than we're used to seeing from that character. It humanizes him, to me. Wise old man Xavier has some rapey skeletons in his closet.
Edit: it isn't just that he
Mindwipes Moira, though that's pretty bad.
He uses his telepathy to pick up on college girls, which while not strictly rapey is a little creepy.
He barely restrains his revulsion seeing Raven in her natural form.
X2 is still one of the best superhero movies made, and a brilliant team superhero movie, which is even more impressive.
I rewatched it recently and it's starting to show its age, but just barely. A few of the scenes with not-Legion come across a bit too campy. It's still pretty solid.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Also, on the topic of Black Guy Dies First, there's something that really bothered me about X-Men: Apocalypse. (Okay, there were many things, but this was a big one.)
Apocalypse used a Woman in Refrigerator trope to get Magneto back in the fray.
Especially since we barely see Erik's wife and daughter prior to her death. She exists in the plot only to give Erik a reason to get angry again.
In First Class and Days of Future Past, Erik had a believable, complex, and interesting relationship with Raven. In Apocalypse, Erik's relationships with women are one-way: their harm inspires him to action. I think's cheap and it diminishes Erik as a character.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
X2 really raised the bar for superhero action scenes. That Nightcrawler White House scene at the start of the film is amazing and holds up well against the best action scenes in superhero movies today.
Most of First Class is great. It's just that the not-great parts are pretty bad.
Like running headlong into Black Dude Dies First as if it'S 1975.
Or the weird love triangle.
Or Xavier erasing Moira's memory because it was convenient.
Or the hamfest climax.
But I could go for a whole movie of Nazi Hunter Magneto. They could even do a modern day sequel!
Yeah, this is pretty close to my feeling about it. It's a mostly well-executed movie that is marred by some questionable plot and casting choices.
I do like that McAvoy's Xavier is portrayed as being more of an arrogant prick than we're used to seeing from that character. It humanizes him, to me. Wise old man Xavier has some rapey skeletons in his closet.
Edit: it isn't just that he
Mindwipes Moira, though that's pretty bad.
He uses his telepathy to pick up on college girls, which while not strictly rapey is a little creepy.
He barely restrains his revulsion seeing Raven in her natural form.
He's creeper in the comics, so they're being faithful. Xavier's had a crush on Jean since she was a student.
Also, on the topic of Black Guy Dies First, there's something that really bothered me about X-Men: Apocalypse. (Okay, there were many things, but this was a big one.)
Apocalypse used a Woman in Refrigerator trope to get Magneto back in the fray.
Especially since we barely see Erik's wife and daughter prior to her death. She exists in the plot only to give Erik a reason to get angry again.
In First Class and Days of Future Past, Erik had a believable, complex, and interesting relationship with Raven. In Apocalypse, Erik's relationships with women are one-way: their harm inspires him to action. I think's cheap and it diminishes Erik as a character.
One of my biggest issues with the new X-men trilogy is that Magneto has the exact same character arc every single time. We meet him and he's doing alright, either living in peace or at least not actively trying to harm people. Then something happens to piss him off, and the man goes zero to genocide in seconds. Apocalypse should've ended with Xavier erasing his mind just for goddamned peace and quiet.
There's some good story in the idea that Magneto can't stop, and will have to be either fought forever or stopped forever. But instead we just get him being angsty, and it has less of an impact each time.
Also, on the topic of Black Guy Dies First, there's something that really bothered me about X-Men: Apocalypse. (Okay, there were many things, but this was a big one.)
Apocalypse used a Woman in Refrigerator trope to get Magneto back in the fray.
Especially since we barely see Erik's wife and daughter prior to her death. She exists in the plot only to give Erik a reason to get angry again.
In First Class and Days of Future Past, Erik had a believable, complex, and interesting relationship with Raven. In Apocalypse, Erik's relationships with women are one-way: their harm inspires him to action. I think's cheap and it diminishes Erik as a character.
One of my biggest issues with the new X-men trilogy is that Magneto has the exact same character arc every single time. We meet him and he's doing alright, either living in peace or at least not actively trying to harm people. Then something happens to piss him off, and the man goes zero to genocide in seconds. Apocalypse should've ended with Xavier erasing his mind just for goddamned peace and quiet.
There's some good story in the idea that Magneto can't stop, and will have to be either fought forever or stopped forever. But instead we just get him being angsty, and it has less of an impact each time.
This is why I was sad the sequel to DOFP wasn't Magneto going into super villain mode with a spanking new Brotherhood then getting to Apocalypse. They had the perfect set up to do this.
This whole thing the thread is on is amusing me to no end right now, I still remember when I first came to a previous iteration of this thread when Deadpool was a leaked video and asked if Deadpool could be considered MCU. The responses were not vague; X-men, F4, and Deadpool were no bueno, do not pass Go, etc.
Heh, we're probably only getting away with it because we're directly comparing Fox/Sony to the MCU.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Heh, we're probably only getting away with it because we're directly comparing Fox/Sony to the MCU.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Fox has been improving drastically, the last few movies have been very close to Marvel on the quality scale. RE: Deadpool, Logan, DOFP.
This whole thing the thread is on is amusing me to no end right now, I still remember when I first came to a previous iteration of this thread when Deadpool was a leaked video and asked if Deadpool could be considered MCU. The responses were not vague; X-men, F4, and Deadpool were no bueno, do not pass Go, etc.
I want a quote for the Deadpool leak. My recollection is more along the lines of "That was hilarious. No way in a million years we get that."
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Heh, we're probably only getting away with it because we're directly comparing Fox/Sony to the MCU.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Fox has been improving drastically, the last few movies have been very close to Marvel on the quality scale. RE: Deadpool, Logan, DOFP.
Deadpool and Logan were good for completely different reasons, but still the same reason.
Deadpool embodied the spirit of the character, which really can't be done in a PG-13 movie. Logan was just somber and bittersweet and really was a great yarn and character focused.
The MCU is great because it's all the same world and builds upon itself with each new release. Those Fox properties were great because they weren't trying to be the MCU. That's why I feel like the DCCU or whatever is just floundering: There's no focus.
There's just nobody tending the garden at Fox like there is at Marvel. At least nobody who actually cares about the comics.
Singer is a good director, but doesn't really understand the strengths of comics as a serial storytelling vehicle, and... actively dislikes comics, if I'm remembering correctly?
And Fantastic Four has just been getting the old 20th Century Fox screwjob all along.
Fox needs to stop trying to build a cinematic universe on their existing continuity. The X-Men films starting in 2000 weren't made to set up a big cinematic universe like the MCU. The first two films even tried to shy away from their comic book roots. It doesn't make sense to try to jam them in together in the hopes of building something like the MCU.
They either need to make standalone films or start with something new. In fact, I think Logan actually sets up a much better continuity for more X-Men films than Apocalypse and the old continuity.
The X-Men were always allegories for oppressed minorities, people who are hated and persecuted because they're different. And Logan takes place in a dystopian world where mutants are being suppressed and exploited for profit, with the survivors being refugees forced to flee their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere. That's great for telling X-Men stories that are much more character driven that are more personal, with stakes that are more relatable and relevant to today's world. It would be great to see new young mutants coming together to fix the world and show how even though the old X-Men failed, their legacy still inspired a new generation to achieve what they couldn't.
Even Fantastic Four in comics are shit, there's no salvaging that franchise.
If they're going to try and rejuvenate the Fantastic Four, they need to just lean into the hokieness and family aspects. They keep trying to make it hipper and darker and they're missing the point.
Fox's problem with the X-Men movies and continuity is that they use those movies as vehicles for disaster films. The final battles are always some major spectacle, and they always feel the need to up the ante with each successive movie. Having that carry over from movie to movie leads to a point where one will be able to blow up the planet and at some point you have to stop and go "yeah, so...uh....the bad guys may have a point?"
Even Fantastic Four in comics are shit, there's no salvaging that franchise.
If they're going to try and rejuvenate the Fantastic Four, they need to just lean into the hokieness and family aspects. They keep trying to make it hipper and darker and they're missing the point.
Moviebob has a video on how to make them work in the MCU, with Doctor Doom only showing up in a sequel. Step one was basically take the very first comic from the 60s set in that time, then halfway through say fuck this shit and turn it into If Tony Stark was on Mad Men.
The idea could work, even if the F4 go away once Doom is in play, because while you need them to set Doom up, you don't need them to keep him going, and for every ounce of suck in the F4, Doom brings five pounds of win. Start him as a standard villain for them, have him show up as a subtler political threat for Black Panther, a teamup movie where he invades Wakanda with an army of Doombots, give him a turn with Doctor Strange, and tie up his arc by making him actually join the good guys to fight a cosmic level big bad. As long as we're reclaiming F4 ancillaries might as well be Galactus.
I still hold some hope for F4 because Fox has never found real success with them, where with the X-Men they've at worst been able to slide to a profit on Hugh Jackman's oiled pecs. They'll never give that up, and the MCU doesn't really need them to, but thats a separate set of rights.
Hevach on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Not using Miles Teller is a good starting point for a F4 movie.
Equally relevant here, IMO, if for slightly different reasons:
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Psychotic OneThe Lord of No PantsParts UnknownRegistered Userregular
I forget who said it originally but I follow the current mindest of what makes Marvel so much more different than DC.
Marvel - They make an action / comedy / heist movie and then fit their super heroes into it.
DC - Look we got super heroes look! OMG Check out these villains. And while the characters are historically popular. Unless the story properly built. It just feels like a race from Cool Scene to cool scene. [See Zach Snyder Syndrome]
Heh, we're probably only getting away with it because we're directly comparing Fox/Sony to the MCU.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Fox has been improving drastically, the last few movies have been very close to Marvel on the quality scale. RE: Deadpool, Logan, DOFP.
You forgot Apocalypse which was woeful beyond words
Indeed foxs better offerings a one that have zilch to do with a universe
Sure they do, they both belong to the X-universe. Deadpool had the least connection, though it did have a supporting X-man in a big role (Colossus) while Logan built on the history of the X-men films.
Hiring anyone at all familiar and passionate with the source material would help
Is there anyone familiar with and passionate about Fantastic Four?
It shouldn't be that difficult, Peyton Reed has wanted to do a movie with them for ages. If they can get James Gunn to do a fantastic edition about a bunch of nobodies like the Guardians movie studios should be able to do something like the FF. That said, how do movie studios usually get directors for properties like this? And how are Marvel able to do this for very obscure IP's while others fail?
Heh, we're probably only getting away with it because we're directly comparing Fox/Sony to the MCU.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Fox has been improving drastically, the last few movies have been very close to Marvel on the quality scale. RE: Deadpool, Logan, DOFP.
You forgot Apocalypse which was woeful beyond words
My post was about their best movies, not the worst.
I still hold some hope for F4 because Fox has never found real success with them, where with the X-Men they've at worst been able to slide to a profit on Hugh Jackman's oiled pecs. They'll never give that up, and the MCU doesn't really need them to, but thats a separate set of rights.
I'd be ok with Marvel getting the FF eventually. If there ever was a studio who could get the right it's them - and Sony knows it. A reason they've got to be holding onto the FF is because of this, not only will that give Marvel huge profits, it'll be embarrassing to them when they failed to do that when they had the chance. Thin skinned execs hate getting embarrassed at the box office.
There's just nobody tending the garden at Fox like there is at Marvel. At least nobody who actually cares about the comics.
Singer is a good director, but doesn't really understand the strengths of comics as a serial storytelling vehicle, and... actively dislikes comics, if I'm remembering correctly?
And Fantastic Four has just been getting the old 20th Century Fox screwjob all along.
Supposedly the same guy is in charge of both X-men and FF over there. He's a screenwriter. I'd be intrigued with what the results with FF would be were they out of his hands.
Strangely the X-men has been fairly ok over there, minus some ups and downs, yet it's a constant train wreck on the FF side. It reminds me when WB sold Wonder Woman to Silver Pictures. For years the movie was in development hell due to either weird choices and wanting to rip off the Matrix or down right apathy to getting the film made - years later when WB finally takes it back suddenly we have a big budget Wonder Woman movie hitting theaters!
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Heh, we're probably only getting away with it because we're directly comparing Fox/Sony to the MCU.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Fox has been improving drastically, the last few movies have been very close to Marvel on the quality scale. RE: Deadpool, Logan, DOFP.
You forgot Apocalypse which was woeful beyond words
My post was about their best movies, not the worst.
Heh, we're probably only getting away with it because we're directly comparing Fox/Sony to the MCU.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Fox has been improving drastically, the last few movies have been very close to Marvel on the quality scale. RE: Deadpool, Logan, DOFP.
You forgot Apocalypse which was woeful beyond words
My post was about their best movies, not the worst.
Posts
One of Jennifer Lawrence's best performances.
Yeah, this is pretty close to my feeling about it. It's a mostly well-executed movie that is marred by some questionable plot and casting choices.
I do like that McAvoy's Xavier is portrayed as being more of an arrogant prick than we're used to seeing from that character. It humanizes him, to me. Wise old man Xavier has some rapey skeletons in his closet.
Edit: it isn't just that he
He uses his telepathy to pick up on college girls, which while not strictly rapey is a little creepy.
He barely restrains his revulsion seeing Raven in her natural form.
I rewatched it recently and it's starting to show its age, but just barely. A few of the scenes with not-Legion come across a bit too campy. It's still pretty solid.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
"We're going to see the Professor."
I died laughing.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Especially since we barely see Erik's wife and daughter prior to her death. She exists in the plot only to give Erik a reason to get angry again.
In First Class and Days of Future Past, Erik had a believable, complex, and interesting relationship with Raven. In Apocalypse, Erik's relationships with women are one-way: their harm inspires him to action. I think's cheap and it diminishes Erik as a character.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
He's creeper in the comics, so they're being faithful. Xavier's had a crush on Jean since she was a student.
One of my biggest issues with the new X-men trilogy is that Magneto has the exact same character arc every single time. We meet him and he's doing alright, either living in peace or at least not actively trying to harm people. Then something happens to piss him off, and the man goes zero to genocide in seconds. Apocalypse should've ended with Xavier erasing his mind just for goddamned peace and quiet.
There's some good story in the idea that Magneto can't stop, and will have to be either fought forever or stopped forever. But instead we just get him being angsty, and it has less of an impact each time.
This is why I was sad the sequel to DOFP wasn't Magneto going into super villain mode with a spanking new Brotherhood then getting to Apocalypse. They had the perfect set up to do this.
Beyond the nitty-gritty of each movie, the big difference is that Marvel is better at translating the things that made the comics work in the first place. Other studios don't seem to really get why these stories have been consistently popular for almost a hundred years.
Fox has been improving drastically, the last few movies have been very close to Marvel on the quality scale. RE: Deadpool, Logan, DOFP.
I want a quote for the Deadpool leak. My recollection is more along the lines of "That was hilarious. No way in a million years we get that."
Deadpool and Logan were good for completely different reasons, but still the same reason.
Deadpool embodied the spirit of the character, which really can't be done in a PG-13 movie. Logan was just somber and bittersweet and really was a great yarn and character focused.
The MCU is great because it's all the same world and builds upon itself with each new release. Those Fox properties were great because they weren't trying to be the MCU. That's why I feel like the DCCU or whatever is just floundering: There's no focus.
Singer is a good director, but doesn't really understand the strengths of comics as a serial storytelling vehicle, and... actively dislikes comics, if I'm remembering correctly?
And Fantastic Four has just been getting the old 20th Century Fox screwjob all along.
They either need to make standalone films or start with something new. In fact, I think Logan actually sets up a much better continuity for more X-Men films than Apocalypse and the old continuity.
The X-Men were always allegories for oppressed minorities, people who are hated and persecuted because they're different. And Logan takes place in a dystopian world where mutants are being suppressed and exploited for profit, with the survivors being refugees forced to flee their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere. That's great for telling X-Men stories that are much more character driven that are more personal, with stakes that are more relatable and relevant to today's world. It would be great to see new young mutants coming together to fix the world and show how even though the old X-Men failed, their legacy still inspired a new generation to achieve what they couldn't.
If they're going to try and rejuvenate the Fantastic Four, they need to just lean into the hokieness and family aspects. They keep trying to make it hipper and darker and they're missing the point.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Moviebob has a video on how to make them work in the MCU, with Doctor Doom only showing up in a sequel. Step one was basically take the very first comic from the 60s set in that time, then halfway through say fuck this shit and turn it into If Tony Stark was on Mad Men.
The idea could work, even if the F4 go away once Doom is in play, because while you need them to set Doom up, you don't need them to keep him going, and for every ounce of suck in the F4, Doom brings five pounds of win. Start him as a standard villain for them, have him show up as a subtler political threat for Black Panther, a teamup movie where he invades Wakanda with an army of Doombots, give him a turn with Doctor Strange, and tie up his arc by making him actually join the good guys to fight a cosmic level big bad. As long as we're reclaiming F4 ancillaries might as well be Galactus.
He was probably the least of that films worries.
Turning Doom into CyberCarrie was up there.
Everything about that film was wrong.
Unfortunately they all work for Marvel already.
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
Is there anyone familiar with and passionate about Fantastic Four?
Marvel - They make an action / comedy / heist movie and then fit their super heroes into it.
DC - Look we got super heroes look! OMG Check out these villains. And while the characters are historically popular. Unless the story properly built. It just feels like a race from Cool Scene to cool scene. [See Zach Snyder Syndrome]
You forgot Apocalypse which was woeful beyond words
Brad Bird
Sure they do, they both belong to the X-universe. Deadpool had the least connection, though it did have a supporting X-man in a big role (Colossus) while Logan built on the history of the X-men films.
It shouldn't be that difficult, Peyton Reed has wanted to do a movie with them for ages. If they can get James Gunn to do a fantastic edition about a bunch of nobodies like the Guardians movie studios should be able to do something like the FF. That said, how do movie studios usually get directors for properties like this? And how are Marvel able to do this for very obscure IP's while others fail?
My post was about their best movies, not the worst.
I'd be ok with Marvel getting the FF eventually. If there ever was a studio who could get the right it's them - and Sony knows it. A reason they've got to be holding onto the FF is because of this, not only will that give Marvel huge profits, it'll be embarrassing to them when they failed to do that when they had the chance. Thin skinned execs hate getting embarrassed at the box office.
Sure there is.
Supposedly the same guy is in charge of both X-men and FF over there. He's a screenwriter. I'd be intrigued with what the results with FF would be were they out of his hands.
Strangely the X-men has been fairly ok over there, minus some ups and downs, yet it's a constant train wreck on the FF side. It reminds me when WB sold Wonder Woman to Silver Pictures. For years the movie was in development hell due to either weird choices and wanting to rip off the Matrix or down right apathy to getting the film made - years later when WB finally takes it back suddenly we have a big budget Wonder Woman movie hitting theaters!
The last few movies are
DOFP (gud), Deadpool (gud), Apocalypse (vbad), Logan (gud)
There's a massive stinker floating in that little oasis
3 out of 4 is quite good. No studios gets it right 100% of the time. Well, Marvel does, but they are very exceptional for this very reason.