Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
This is another area where implementation fails the message.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
yes I did, I helped someone and they ultimately got to make a similar choice
this is like, the most fucking miserable interpretation of the ending I've ever seen
It's the truth. No one's game was easier because of anyone's save game sacrifice. Otherwise the first round of players would not have beaten it.
The game makes you think otherwise. But it is not real. It is a lie. A reasonable lie, for what they were communicating. Feeling like you helped someone is the point, after all.
Whether or not you actually did (you didn't) is entirely inconsequential to that.
You talk about sacrificing the rest of the game or the quest for Pascal, or someone, to help them through trauma, but you think its useless to sacrifice your save data to help someone else out at the end, to send a message of hope, to be a part of their journey, so maybe they can make it through too?
You're right, it never helps anything anyway
No, that would not be useless.
What I'm saying is that isn't what's actually happening. It's just making you think it is.
Okay but we have the context. You can't change the circumstance by saying the context is suddenly not there when it is.
I meant the gameplay context. The thing people were complaining to me about bringing up. Not the story.
You can't really look at the "gameplay context" as some separate, special thing detached from everything else though.
Like, a huge part of this game (and all Yoko Taro games, really) is asking the player to think about why they are taking specific gameplay actions and what that actually means.
I agree! That was much of my initial argument! I got personally attacked for it! So I crafted another argument from weaker footing to satisfy the detractors and hopefully reduce the hostility before I had to check out of this due to anxiety attacks.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I mean you're spending a whole lot of words telling people they didn't actually feel the way they felt, or that they felt that way for the wrong reason, so yeah you're gonna come under fire for it.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
I'd also add that nothing you argued was in the same vein as "players should consider why they do things in video games." You were arguing about right-wrong choices, not "why do you do this or that in a game?" When I played the game, I realized it was possible to
attack friendly units, or otherwise non-hostile units
after the game gave me an achievement for doing so. I immediately freaked out and changed my playstyle based on that. A video game trigger made me aware of it, but the choice on how to proceed had everything to do with my consideration of my actions rather than "I'll get this for doing that!"
Regarding a minor thing that got mentioned:
If a game director thinks that game achievements are worthless, then why not only include a bare minimum in the platforms that require them and none at all on the ones that don't? (PS4 and PC respectively, in this case.)
Regarding a minor thing that got mentioned:
If a game director thinks that game achievements are worthless, then why not only include a bare minimum in the platforms that require them and none at all on the ones that don't? (PS4 and PC respectively, in this case.)
Because it has to get coded and it may as well go in. It's more work to take the achievements and their triggers out.
Regarding a minor thing that got mentioned:
If a game director thinks that game achievements are worthless, then why not only include a bare minimum in the platforms that require them and none at all on the ones that don't? (PS4 and PC respectively, in this case.)
Because what he did here is way funnier and he knows it.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
This is another area where implementation fails the message.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
yes I did, I helped someone and they ultimately got to make a similar choice
this is like, the most fucking miserable interpretation of the ending I've ever seen
It's the truth. No one's game was easier because of anyone's save game sacrifice. Otherwise the first round of players would not have beaten it.
The game makes you think otherwise. But it is not real. It is a lie. A reasonable lie, for what they were communicating. Feeling like you helped someone is the point, after all.
Whether or not you actually did (you didn't) is entirely inconsequential to that.
You talk about sacrificing the rest of the game or the quest for Pascal, or someone, to help them through trauma, but you think its useless to sacrifice your save data to help someone else out at the end, to send a message of hope, to be a part of their journey, so maybe they can make it through too?
You're right, it never helps anything anyway
No, that would not be useless.
What I'm saying is that isn't what's actually happening. It's just making you think it is.
Okay but we have the context. You can't change the circumstance by saying the context is suddenly not there when it is.
I meant the gameplay context. The thing people were complaining to me about bringing up. Not the story.
You can't really look at the "gameplay context" as some separate, special thing detached from everything else though.
Like, a huge part of this game (and all Yoko Taro games, really) is asking the player to think about why they are taking specific gameplay actions and what that actually means.
I agree! That was much of my initial argument! I got personally attacked for it! So I crafted another argument from weaker footing to satisfy the detractors and hopefully reduce the hostility before I had to check out of this due to anxiety attacks.
I don't want to crazy in depth here because 1) I'm on mobile so typing sucks and 2) I'm not really trying to get into it with you since you've been pretty clear about your feelings for this game and I don't want this to come across as an attack.
That said, however, I feel like you're looking at this in a somewhat backwards way.
Edit: just to be clear the following spoils literally everything, up to and including ending E, don't look if you haven't finished, etc
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Ok, so your point is that not only does the game gives you a tangible reward for wiping pascal's memory, but the intangible story benefits are a wash across all three options, as each are pretty much equally miserable. This is seen as a failing, or the game getting in the way of its own message, as the player is clearly incentivized to choose the option that lets them see the most content. And in a vacuum I would agree; gating content behind a moral choice cheapens said choice, especially when the actual story outcome doesn't meaningfully change regardless of your decision.
But see, I'm pretty sure that's the point. This is a game where the final boss is literally the end credits, where the true ending involves the pods crashing through the 4th wall, directly addressing the player, and asking if you want to stop doing the same shit over and over again and instead save the main characters with almost a literal deus ex machina. Then, if you want, you can leave a message of hope for other players, delete your save file, and never return.
See, I don't really see the gameplay "reward" you get from wiping pascal's memory as a reward. I see it as a reminder of a farce. The entire world of Nier Automata is a cycle of death and tragedy, where characters and even civilizations keep destroying each other in the same way, over and over again, and the game does it's best to make the player complicit in this. Getting "rewarded" for wiping pascal's memory is just another example of how fucked everything is, and it's why blowing everything up and trying something new outside of the system makes for such a satisfying resolution.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Regarding a minor thing that got mentioned:
If a game director thinks that game achievements are worthless, then why not only include a bare minimum in the platforms that require them and none at all on the ones that don't? (PS4 and PC respectively, in this case.)
Because what he did here is way funnier and he knows it.
I guess? Personally I rejected it for basically bring cheating.
Because it has to get coded and it may as well go in. It's more work to take the achievements and their triggers out.
Only if you're taking them out of the finished game. It is less work (by very little) to never enter them in the Steam backend and to leave the PC codepath for unlocking achievements empty.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Frankly I think it's nice that the director showed his disdain for achievements but, for the people who like it, he included them anyway. That's a good show of character. Which makes me like this guy even more.
Is the Drakenguard series the only work he's done in video games?
Frankly I think it's nice that the director showed his disdain for achievements but, for the people who like it, he included them anyway. That's a good show of character. Which makes me like this guy even more.
Is the Drakenguard series the only work he's done in video games?
Pretty much, yeah
Though he's worked on a couple mobile games. Most recently as creative director on SINoAlice, which is a mobile game that's currently out just in Japan.
I mean you're spending a whole lot of words telling people they didn't actually feel the way they felt, or that they felt that way for the wrong reason, so yeah you're gonna come under fire for it.
This is absolutely not what I'm saying at all, in any way. The fact that several people think I am, and that I keep reading hostile things that are not at all reflecting of the ideas I'm trying to communicate, means I'm coming from a very different place than everyone else and have utterly failed to properly account for it when trying to convey ideas.
The rather personal and emotional reaction I had to in depth discussion of the content suggests the reason for it. It's hitting way too close to home and in very tender territory, which I didn't realize when I started (or I definitely wouldn't have).
It's still bad writing with multiple game design flaws. But this isn't the audience for that discussion, nor am I capable of handling it in this particular context.
I deserve apologies from some people who were quite goosey, but whatever. I'll get out of your thread (and wouldn't mind a kick to ensure I don't make the mistake of coming back).
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
@The Sauce for what it's worth if the disagreements felt personal I didn't mean for it to come across that way. I'm riding off the high of having experienced this game brand new fresh after it's been out for the bulk of the year already.
Personally, I wiped Pascal's memory because it's what he wanted. I wasn't going to stab him and eliminate the possibility that he could start over. I wasn't going to leave him alone to wallow in misery at the death of his entire village or, more likely, kill himself. All options were bleak, and I chose the one that actually seemed most potentially optimistic of the three - to ease his pain and give him a chance to start anew.
Personally, I wiped Pascal's memory because it's what he wanted. I wasn't going to stab him and eliminate the possibility that he could start over. I wasn't going to leave him alone to wallow in misery at the death of his entire village or, more likely, kill himself. All options were bleak, and I chose the one that actually seemed most potentially optimistic of the three - to ease his pain and give him a chance to start anew.
... oh my god, I'd forgotten about that detail. What the fuck is wrong with me?
Edit - And I mean, I forgot it IN THE MOMENT. I was so caught up on other aspects of the choice that I forgot what was said.
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
Post C
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
Yeah. It's one of those things where at first I wanted it but realized it was better as-is.
Which is probably why they did it that way, I suppose
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
For the record, a lot of video game writers could learn a lesson to do that. Make the choices based on what the character would do within a scope, rather than just give every player an option for what they would do. It reinforces the narrative being created and you also worry less about branching path stuff like in Bioware games.
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
Yeah, A2's known pascal for like...an hour. She's just gonna wipe him or stab him and be on her way.
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
For the record, a lot of video game writers could learn a lesson to do that. Make the choices based on what the character would do within a scope, rather than just give every player an option for what they would do. It reinforces the narrative being created and you also worry less about branching path stuff like in Bioware games.
I feel like The Witcher games did that stuff very well, too.
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
Yeah, A2's known pascal for like...an hour. She's just gonna wipe him or stab him and be on her way.
Yes... and no.
She has all of 2E's memories. She's effectively experienced all of that.
It also contextualizes why she gives a shit for 9S in the route C ending. Because 2E cared for him, not because she originally gave much of a shit.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Just started up my next playthrough that's for the sake of showing my roomie the game. Route B is going to be a little hard to show off but it'll all be worth it.
I never got hit by the saw blades at the start of the game this time around. I think I'm ready for Very Hard.
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
Yeah, A2's known pascal for like...an hour. She's just gonna wipe him or stab him and be on her way.
Yes... and no.
She has all of 2E's memories. She's effectively experienced all of that.
It also contextualizes why she gives a shit for 9S in the route C ending. Because 2E cared for him, not because she originally gave much of a shit.
I dunno, I spent a couple of days playing the A2-parts.
The sun doesn't set.
So while I didn't have a lot of time for the main story I did do a couple of side quests.
11B & 16D
I decided to see what happened if I did both choices. I did "don't tell her" first and thought it was kind of sweet but, then after telling her. Wow, I don't know how I feel that the 1 queer relationship that I've encountered so far was an abusive one. it also makes me wonder how bad the fighting was when she said "I don't need to defend myself anymore"
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
On that character
I'm pretty sure the canon actual ending to Pascal's story is A2 walking out if I'm not mistaken, pretty sure a couple of youtuber's(Clemps from...Clemps? and Pat from Super Best Friends) talked about it. Clemps was lamenting that he couldn't do a Automata analysis just yet because Taro pulls shit like dropping huge stuff after the game is done, and one of the things he dropped is that Pascal eventually did recover when A2 leaves him and become super awesome and help other machines and broker's peace and it's all sunshine and rainbows.
Like, inside the framework of the game, leaving him there to process and deal(and grow) with what happened was the right choice. I mean in real, HUMAN life, it's shitty. But then again, in real human life we don't have the choice of, "Oh no, something ridiculously bad happened because of my decisions, WIPE MY MIND OR KILL ME".
Countless times we see that machines were doomed to pointlessly repeat their mistakes due to them slavishly trying to copy humanity. Pascal was one of the few who seemed like he was actually growing. To just wipe his mind would be dooming him to repeat the same mistake again and forcing him to suffer the same fate, again. While killing him, well, kills him.
Forcing him to live(or do the deed himself) and therefor learn from his experience means that he has a chance to escape that loop of misery.
And personally, within the framework of the game, it's like, yo, you want to kill yourself, then go ahead, be my guest, I'm not going to murder you. And running away from the reality of the situation by wiping your mind is not going to make anything better, hell, it would arguably make it worse(Which it does!). A2 struck me as a tough love sort of gal.
I mean yes, as previously stated, the actual right decision would be to talk this out with him and help him through it. But, uhhh, A2's kind of a murder android with big emotional baggage herself, the mind of a dead android inside her brain(who was ALSO kind of a dick too!), and isn't exactly an A+ in the friend category, so I kind of give her a pass.
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
Yeah, A2's known pascal for like...an hour. She's just gonna wipe him or stab him and be on her way.
Yes... and no.
She has all of 2E's memories. She's effectively experienced all of that.
It also contextualizes why she gives a shit for 9S in the route C ending. Because 2E cared for him, not because she originally gave much of a shit.
I dunno, I spent a couple of days playing the A2-parts.
The sun doesn't set.
So while I didn't have a lot of time for the main story I did do a couple of side quests.
11B & 16D
I decided to see what happened if I did both choices. I did "don't tell her" first and thought it was kind of sweet but, then after telling her. Wow, I don't know how I feel that the 1 queer relationship that I've encountered so far was an abusive one. it also makes me wonder how bad the fighting was when she said "I don't need to defend myself anymore"
If it means anything
Vague Spoiler
There are other queer relationships that are better and way more explicitly romantic.
@Henroid if you have any means at all to play the original NieR, go for it. The gameplay is way dumber (hack and slash) but the context you now have for it, and the messages it sends and story it tells will blow your mind.
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
I kind of wish they gave you the option after Pascal to like decide some after bits via a choose from these kind of thing like they did with D+P
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
All of these are neat ideas, but also it's not just the player that is making these choices, but also A2.
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
Yeah, A2's known pascal for like...an hour. She's just gonna wipe him or stab him and be on her way.
Yes... and no.
She has all of 2E's memories. She's effectively experienced all of that.
It also contextualizes why she gives a shit for 9S in the route C ending. Because 2E cared for him, not because she originally gave much of a shit.
I dunno, I spent a couple of days playing the A2-parts.
The sun doesn't set.
That's just because the earth doesn't rotate
Yeah, the sun doesn't set.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I managed to ending W just now. I'm such a pro at this game already.
You're very vocal about your love of drinking. Is that part of your creative process?
I mean certainly, I've always liked drinking a lot, but I remember when I was writing the previous games' scenarios and the stories for them, I noticed a [recurring theme] that all the stuff I had written when I was really out of it was actually the stuff that everyone really liked. And I thought, "Why the hell should that be?" It worked out. If I drink, I become a bit tipsy and a bit of a fool, and I lose my inhibitions. That kind of uninhibited story writing only comes out when I'm drinking, so I definitely try to drink a lot more whenever I'm writing now. It's very interesting; when I'm writing when I'm sober, it's like, "Ah yes, that's an interesting story, I'll write that, I'll put that there." But that's very different then when I've started drinking. I just start getting involved and having an emotional connection to the characters. I'll start crying and [I'm] like, "Wow, this is a really sad story!" So yeah, that's why I think it's better. Then I'll pass out, and wake up with tears down my face like, "Oh, I was writing a story." In the original Nier, there was the story of the wolf and the people with the masks. I remember crying along with the story as I was writing it while I was completely wasted.
Also, an answer of Taro's COMPLETELY relevant to our earlier discussions about "canon" and endings and his intent:
Your games always include multiple endings. What do you do to ensure that players are compelled to see them all the way through?
I don't think people really have to see all of them, you know? I don't try that hard to make sure they do. I think there's a lot of people who play games nowadays and they don't go all the way through to completion, and you have to accept that as one way that people like to play games. So you'll maybe see one ending and then stop - or some people may not even see one - [and] stop halfway between that. They're all legitimate ways of playing, and I'm quite happy people can play that way. The way that my endings are generally structured in my games [is that they go] from Ending A to Ending E. [The structure] we generally have is each one reveals a new layer of something, or there's something that if you only saw it to the end of here, you'll maybe get one answer; if you move on, you'll see a deeper answer and something different, and [then] move on. For those people who want to go all the way through to the final ending, I then want them to go even further from that and come up with their own ideas. There will be things that they come out with and things that they see there, and I really want them to have that kind of sense of imagination in their minds as well.
mxmarks on
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
I feel kind of bad for Yoko Taro. I hope he drinks happily and moderately and doesn't feel too obligated to get drunk to write. And I hope he doesn't suffer any health issues from drinking too much, or have alcoholism problems like he sometimes gives an impression he might. It's not really any of my business I guess, but as a fan I would be sad if he was tormented by it.
BahamutZERO on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The best art doesn't come from people who are happy all the time. Knowing where it's coming from with this guy, I worry.
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What I'm saying is that isn't what's actually happening. It's just making you think it is.
If a game director thinks that game achievements are worthless, then why not only include a bare minimum in the platforms that require them and none at all on the ones that don't? (PS4 and PC respectively, in this case.)
Because what he did here is way funnier and he knows it.
Ending E
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I don't want to crazy in depth here because 1) I'm on mobile so typing sucks and 2) I'm not really trying to get into it with you since you've been pretty clear about your feelings for this game and I don't want this to come across as an attack.
That said, however, I feel like you're looking at this in a somewhat backwards way.
Edit: just to be clear the following spoils literally everything, up to and including ending E, don't look if you haven't finished, etc
But see, I'm pretty sure that's the point. This is a game where the final boss is literally the end credits, where the true ending involves the pods crashing through the 4th wall, directly addressing the player, and asking if you want to stop doing the same shit over and over again and instead save the main characters with almost a literal deus ex machina. Then, if you want, you can leave a message of hope for other players, delete your save file, and never return.
See, I don't really see the gameplay "reward" you get from wiping pascal's memory as a reward. I see it as a reminder of a farce. The entire world of Nier Automata is a cycle of death and tragedy, where characters and even civilizations keep destroying each other in the same way, over and over again, and the game does it's best to make the player complicit in this. Getting "rewarded" for wiping pascal's memory is just another example of how fucked everything is, and it's why blowing everything up and trying something new outside of the system makes for such a satisfying resolution.
I guess? Personally I rejected it for basically bring cheating.
Only if you're taking them out of the finished game. It is less work (by very little) to never enter them in the Steam backend and to leave the PC codepath for unlocking achievements empty.
Is the Drakenguard series the only work he's done in video games?
Pretty much, yeah
Though he's worked on a couple mobile games. Most recently as creative director on SINoAlice, which is a mobile game that's currently out just in Japan.
The rather personal and emotional reaction I had to in depth discussion of the content suggests the reason for it. It's hitting way too close to home and in very tender territory, which I didn't realize when I started (or I definitely wouldn't have).
It's still bad writing with multiple game design flaws. But this isn't the audience for that discussion, nor am I capable of handling it in this particular context.
I deserve apologies from some people who were quite goosey, but whatever. I'll get out of your thread (and wouldn't mind a kick to ensure I don't make the mistake of coming back).
Some of them have even argued with you!
It's just that they don't do it by telling people that their choices aren't mechanically optimal and thus wrong.
Edit - And I mean, I forgot it IN THE MOMENT. I was so caught up on other aspects of the choice that I forgot what was said.
Did you bury Pascal? What about the kids?
Did you leave a blank Pascal on his own? Did you put him with the resistance camp folks to try and start a new life?
Did you check in on a heartbroken Pascal? Did you provide encouragement and comfort? Try and get him to put himself out there and help people again?
But I think part of the choices is that you're doing it with no way of knowing how it affects things.
I just want more info! How did my good good precious friends do?
You, as the player, can choose what A2 does, but those choices are limited by what A2 herself would do. And I can't really see A2 doing any of those variations.
At least, that's my interpretation.
Which is probably why they did it that way, I suppose
I feel like The Witcher games did that stuff very well, too.
She has all of 2E's memories. She's effectively experienced all of that.
It also contextualizes why she gives a shit for 9S in the route C ending. Because 2E cared for him, not because she originally gave much of a shit.
I never got hit by the saw blades at the start of the game this time around. I think I'm ready for Very Hard.
The sun doesn't set.
11B & 16D
On that character
Like, inside the framework of the game, leaving him there to process and deal(and grow) with what happened was the right choice. I mean in real, HUMAN life, it's shitty. But then again, in real human life we don't have the choice of, "Oh no, something ridiculously bad happened because of my decisions, WIPE MY MIND OR KILL ME".
Countless times we see that machines were doomed to pointlessly repeat their mistakes due to them slavishly trying to copy humanity. Pascal was one of the few who seemed like he was actually growing. To just wipe his mind would be dooming him to repeat the same mistake again and forcing him to suffer the same fate, again. While killing him, well, kills him.
Forcing him to live(or do the deed himself) and therefor learn from his experience means that he has a chance to escape that loop of misery.
And personally, within the framework of the game, it's like, yo, you want to kill yourself, then go ahead, be my guest, I'm not going to murder you. And running away from the reality of the situation by wiping your mind is not going to make anything better, hell, it would arguably make it worse(Which it does!). A2 struck me as a tough love sort of gal.
I mean yes, as previously stated, the actual right decision would be to talk this out with him and help him through it. But, uhhh, A2's kind of a murder android with big emotional baggage herself, the mind of a dead android inside her brain(who was ALSO kind of a dick too!), and isn't exactly an A+ in the friend category, so I kind of give her a pass.
If it means anything
Vague Spoiler
Tumblr | Twitter PSN: misterdapper Av by Satellite_09
You're very vocal about your love of drinking. Is that part of your creative process?
I mean certainly, I've always liked drinking a lot, but I remember when I was writing the previous games' scenarios and the stories for them, I noticed a [recurring theme] that all the stuff I had written when I was really out of it was actually the stuff that everyone really liked. And I thought, "Why the hell should that be?" It worked out. If I drink, I become a bit tipsy and a bit of a fool, and I lose my inhibitions. That kind of uninhibited story writing only comes out when I'm drinking, so I definitely try to drink a lot more whenever I'm writing now. It's very interesting; when I'm writing when I'm sober, it's like, "Ah yes, that's an interesting story, I'll write that, I'll put that there." But that's very different then when I've started drinking. I just start getting involved and having an emotional connection to the characters. I'll start crying and [I'm] like, "Wow, this is a really sad story!" So yeah, that's why I think it's better. Then I'll pass out, and wake up with tears down my face like, "Oh, I was writing a story." In the original Nier, there was the story of the wolf and the people with the masks. I remember crying along with the story as I was writing it while I was completely wasted.
More here: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2017/11/24/yoko-taro-nier-automata-interview-game-informer.aspx?utm_content=buffer6d644&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Also, an answer of Taro's COMPLETELY relevant to our earlier discussions about "canon" and endings and his intent:
I don't think people really have to see all of them, you know? I don't try that hard to make sure they do. I think there's a lot of people who play games nowadays and they don't go all the way through to completion, and you have to accept that as one way that people like to play games. So you'll maybe see one ending and then stop - or some people may not even see one - [and] stop halfway between that. They're all legitimate ways of playing, and I'm quite happy people can play that way. The way that my endings are generally structured in my games [is that they go] from Ending A to Ending E. [The structure] we generally have is each one reveals a new layer of something, or there's something that if you only saw it to the end of here, you'll maybe get one answer; if you move on, you'll see a deeper answer and something different, and [then] move on. For those people who want to go all the way through to the final ending, I then want them to go even further from that and come up with their own ideas. There will be things that they come out with and things that they see there, and I really want them to have that kind of sense of imagination in their minds as well.