HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I guess now I can do all my achievement hunting and such. I wanted to play the game so that my roomie could see it anyway and now I have a chance to go in fresh, so to speak.
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Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
So I see a lot of you talking about different "Routes" and I'll probably try those later. Right now I'm just going to see where things take me. I've developed a strict defensive policy in the game. Meaning I don't attack unless attacked first.
I didn't get to play as much as I liked this weekend because of work but I got some time in.
I got to see the robot carnival and even though 9S insisted I destroy it, I decided spared the tank completely. In fact 9S seems very obsessed with murder and killing things even though they aren't a threat. I fought Adam and Eve and went back to the bunker. Also I chuckled at bit at Pascal's name since I instantly recognized it as a programming language.
I was able to snag a great Pre-Black Friday deal and got a new 4K TV and PS4 Pro for cheaper than it should have been. I didn't think this could look better but my god is it impressive on the new setup.
So I see a lot of you talking about different "Routes" and I'll probably try those later. Right now I'm just going to see where things take me. I've developed a strict defensive policy in the game. Meaning I don't attack unless attacked first.
I didn't get to play as much as I liked this weekend because of work but I got some time in.
I got to see the robot carnival and even though 9S insisted I destroy it, I decided spared the tank completely. In fact 9S seems very obsessed with murder and killing things even though they aren't a threat. I fought Adam and Eve and went back to the bunker. Also I chuckled at bit at Pascal's name since I instantly recognized it as a programming language.
I was able to snag a great Pre-Black Friday deal and got a new 4K TV and PS4 Pro for cheaper than it should have been. I didn't think this could look better but my god is it impressive on the new setup.
Routes is a misnomer really, it’s more like chapters. Just keep playing when the game seems to imply you’re done.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
Okay so I guess this is all the spoilers for the game or something.
I was really hoping that, regardless of choosing 9S or A2 at the end, it would lead to the same conclusion but different perspectives. Having two distinct endings actually kinda sucks, because now I don't know what happens to 9S after A2 saves him.
I'm assuming that Ending E is the pods talking about saving the data of the three heroes. If I had chosen not to save them, would it just not have done that stuff?
Anyway, all that stuff set aside, as weird as it may be with how much the game is rooted in despair, I came away from it feeling good. I guess it's that, with all the people I've known in my life, I've seen people have trouble coping with things. Sometimes they're able to overcome it eventually, and sometimes they give in. It's those people that give in that make me realize how important it is to just be there for others, whether I know them well or not. Stubbornly so, even. Sometimes there is no good answer or resolution to what is going on in peoples' lives. And it hurts. It hurts to be powerless when being the one in that position, or when being the person observing and wanting to help. As I got older though, I learned that at the very least, when people aren't alone, that much can make a difference. I guess it's weird that I am thinking about all that given how the game goes but... it's where I'm at. It's why I didn't blink at the threat of my save file being scrubbed. It's just a game, as the game was hell bent on telling me (and other players who were telling me I'm shit). But screw that.
I wish there was a little more going on with the red twins in the tower and the whole "and now we're going into spaaaaaaace" stuff. It seemed out of nowhere with no build-up or hinting-at from the start. Between that and how lame Adam and Eve are, as far as the PLOT goes, feh. The world building, experiences the characters have and their perspective on things, all of that is grade-A. More like this please.
Oh also,
2B's opening lines about wanting to kill 'god' is really ironic given that the androids revere humanity as their collective 'god' and 9S goes goddamn crazy when he finds out god has been dead all along.
Okay so I guess this is all the spoilers for the game or something.
I was really hoping that, regardless of choosing 9S or A2 at the end, it would lead to the same conclusion but different perspectives. Having two distinct endings actually kinda sucks, because now I don't know what happens to 9S after A2 saves him.
I'm assuming that Ending E is the pods talking about saving the data of the three heroes. If I had chosen not to save them, would it just not have done that stuff?
Anyway, all that stuff set aside, as weird as it may be with how much the game is rooted in despair, I came away from it feeling good. I guess it's that, with all the people I've known in my life, I've seen people have trouble coping with things. Sometimes they're able to overcome it eventually, and sometimes they give in. It's those people that give in that make me realize how important it is to just be there for others, whether I know them well or not. Stubbornly so, even. Sometimes there is no good answer or resolution to what is going on in peoples' lives. And it hurts. It hurts to be powerless when being the one in that position, or when being the person observing and wanting to help. As I got older though, I learned that at the very least, when people aren't alone, that much can make a difference. I guess it's weird that I am thinking about all that given how the game goes but... it's where I'm at. It's why I didn't blink at the threat of my save file being scrubbed. It's just a game, as the game was hell bent on telling me (and other players who were telling me I'm shit). But screw that.
I wish there was a little more going on with the red twins in the tower and the whole "and now we're going into spaaaaaaace" stuff. It seemed out of nowhere with no build-up or hinting-at from the start. Between that and how lame Adam and Eve are, as far as the PLOT goes, feh. The world building, experiences the characters have and their perspective on things, all of that is grade-A. More like this please.
The decision you make to save 9S in C/D is ultimately irrelevant and I don't think it changes anything other than the text.
If you don't choose to save the data you just get normal credits and then get kicked back to chapter select.
And yeah I think Nier Automata is ultimately a hopeful game. Based on interviews I think Yoko Taro feels the same.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Plot question. Again, post ending E, all spoilers, whatever.
I'm confused about project YoRHa. So the final phase of it was destroying the bunker and offing all the current android models, but then the tower was tied into it? The tower was for the machines to go into space, not the androids, right? Because the implications here are that either the machines were controlling the android forces the whole time, or the android forces were controlling the machines the whole time, or- why does everything smell like copper?
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
Plot question. Again, post ending E, all spoilers, whatever.
I'm confused about project YoRHa. So the final phase of it was destroying the bunker and offing all the current android models, but then the tower was tied into it? The tower was for the machines to go into space, not the androids, right? Because the implications here are that either the machines were controlling the android forces the whole time, or the android forces were controlling the machines the whole time, or- why does everything smell like copper?
Basically, the android and machine factions both independently determined it was best to keep the conflict going, in order to keep androids distracted and unaware of humans being extinct, and machines being unable to end it because of a flaw in their programming and eventually using the conflict to evolve. Who exactly is the puppet-master/masters or even if they're still alive is unknown and ultimately unimportant, the current state of the world is the result of ever-cascading mistakes and selfish decisions extending all the way back to Drakengard.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Correct if all you care about is 100%, anyway.
You've erased Pascal in order to do it. The machine that remains behind, wearing his name, is not him.
Otherwise it's up to the individual to decide whether or not they are willing to assist his suicide, and if so, in what manner.
I have some personal feelings about it so for me, walking out was the only choice. A2 is unfortunately not up to the task of talking Pascal down.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Your labeling of it as the "correct" option has everything to do with gameplay advantage rather than being involved in the setting / moral conundrum presented. Which is fine to play it as a video game and nothing else.
Henroid on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Okay so I guess this is all the spoilers for the game or something.
I was really hoping that, regardless of choosing 9S or A2 at the end, it would lead to the same conclusion but different perspectives. Having two distinct endings actually kinda sucks, because now I don't know what happens to 9S after A2 saves him.
I'm assuming that Ending E is the pods talking about saving the data of the three heroes. If I had chosen not to save them, would it just not have done that stuff?
Anyway, all that stuff set aside, as weird as it may be with how much the game is rooted in despair, I came away from it feeling good. I guess it's that, with all the people I've known in my life, I've seen people have trouble coping with things. Sometimes they're able to overcome it eventually, and sometimes they give in. It's those people that give in that make me realize how important it is to just be there for others, whether I know them well or not. Stubbornly so, even. Sometimes there is no good answer or resolution to what is going on in peoples' lives. And it hurts. It hurts to be powerless when being the one in that position, or when being the person observing and wanting to help. As I got older though, I learned that at the very least, when people aren't alone, that much can make a difference. I guess it's weird that I am thinking about all that given how the game goes but... it's where I'm at. It's why I didn't blink at the threat of my save file being scrubbed. It's just a game, as the game was hell bent on telling me (and other players who were telling me I'm shit). But screw that.
I wish there was a little more going on with the red twins in the tower and the whole "and now we're going into spaaaaaaace" stuff. It seemed out of nowhere with no build-up or hinting-at from the start. Between that and how lame Adam and Eve are, as far as the PLOT goes, feh. The world building, experiences the characters have and their perspective on things, all of that is grade-A. More like this please.
Oh also,
2B's opening lines about wanting to kill 'god' is really ironic given that the androids revere humanity as their collective 'god' and 9S goes goddamn crazy when he finds out god has been dead all along.
While the machine lifeform network was destroyed following the collapse of the Tower, a great deal of previously unknown information regarding machine lifeforms and aliens was recovered from the wreckage. As part of this analysis, we compiled research and conjecture regarding both the machine lifeform network and the lifeform Codename N2—commonly known as the Red Girls—that was thought to have been commanding them.
- Machine lifeforms are weapons created by the aliens. The only command given for their behavior was to "defeat the enemy." However, it appears that their capacity for growth and evolution went too far, and they eventually turned on and killed their creators.
- At this point, machine lifeforms recognized that the goal of "defeating the enemy" actually REQUIRED an enemy. In order to maintain this singular objective, they reached the contradictory conclusion that their current enemies—the androids—could not be annihilated completely, lest they no longer have an enemy to defeat.
- In order to resolve this inherent contradiction, the machine lifeforms began to intentionally cause deficiencies in their network, diversifying the vectors of evolution for all machines. This is the cause behind some of the more "special" machine lifeforms, such as Pascal and the Forest King.
- Meanwhile, the deficient network began repeating a process of self-repair while incorporating surrounding information, until it finally reached a fixed state as a new form of network. Traces of information regarding human memories from the quantum server of the old model were discovered, indicating that it had integrated them during the final stages of its growth process. Said server contained a record of the discarded "Project Gestalt," as well as information on the human who was the first successful example of the Gestalt process.
- Having acquired information regarding humanity, the network's structure changed once more, becoming what might better be called a meta network (or a "concept", to borrow the words of the machines). This led directly to the formation of the ego we identify as N2.
...So then! To sum up: For hundreds of years, we've been fighting a network of machines with the ghost of humanity at its core. We've been living in a stupid *****ing world where we fight an endless war that we COULDN'T POSSIBLY LOSE, all for the sake of some Council of Humanity on the moon that doesn't even exist.
I don't know what the point is to all this, but I swear I will kill every evolutionary dead-end machine lifeform, as well as every single asshole behind Project YoRHa.
I'm coming for all your heads. ***** you.
Information Analysis Officer,
Jackass
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Okay so I guess this is all the spoilers for the game or something.
I was really hoping that, regardless of choosing 9S or A2 at the end, it would lead to the same conclusion but different perspectives. Having two distinct endings actually kinda sucks, because now I don't know what happens to 9S after A2 saves him.
I'm assuming that Ending E is the pods talking about saving the data of the three heroes. If I had chosen not to save them, would it just not have done that stuff?
Anyway, all that stuff set aside, as weird as it may be with how much the game is rooted in despair, I came away from it feeling good. I guess it's that, with all the people I've known in my life, I've seen people have trouble coping with things. Sometimes they're able to overcome it eventually, and sometimes they give in. It's those people that give in that make me realize how important it is to just be there for others, whether I know them well or not. Stubbornly so, even. Sometimes there is no good answer or resolution to what is going on in peoples' lives. And it hurts. It hurts to be powerless when being the one in that position, or when being the person observing and wanting to help. As I got older though, I learned that at the very least, when people aren't alone, that much can make a difference. I guess it's weird that I am thinking about all that given how the game goes but... it's where I'm at. It's why I didn't blink at the threat of my save file being scrubbed. It's just a game, as the game was hell bent on telling me (and other players who were telling me I'm shit). But screw that.
I wish there was a little more going on with the red twins in the tower and the whole "and now we're going into spaaaaaaace" stuff. It seemed out of nowhere with no build-up or hinting-at from the start. Between that and how lame Adam and Eve are, as far as the PLOT goes, feh. The world building, experiences the characters have and their perspective on things, all of that is grade-A. More like this please.
Oh also,
2B's opening lines about wanting to kill 'god' is really ironic given that the androids revere humanity as their collective 'god' and 9S goes goddamn crazy when he finds out god has been dead all along.
While the machine lifeform network was destroyed following the collapse of the Tower, a great deal of previously unknown information regarding machine lifeforms and aliens was recovered from the wreckage. As part of this analysis, we compiled research and conjecture regarding both the machine lifeform network and the lifeform Codename N2—commonly known as the Red Girls—that was thought to have been commanding them.
- Machine lifeforms are weapons created by the aliens. The only command given for their behavior was to "defeat the enemy." However, it appears that their capacity for growth and evolution went too far, and they eventually turned on and killed their creators.
- At this point, machine lifeforms recognized that the goal of "defeating the enemy" actually REQUIRED an enemy. In order to maintain this singular objective, they reached the contradictory conclusion that their current enemies—the androids—could not be annihilated completely, lest they no longer have an enemy to defeat.
- In order to resolve this inherent contradiction, the machine lifeforms began to intentionally cause deficiencies in their network, diversifying the vectors of evolution for all machines. This is the cause behind some of the more "special" machine lifeforms, such as Pascal and the Forest King.
- Meanwhile, the deficient network began repeating a process of self-repair while incorporating surrounding information, until it finally reached a fixed state as a new form of network. Traces of information regarding human memories from the quantum server of the old model were discovered, indicating that it had integrated them during the final stages of its growth process. Said server contained a record of the discarded "Project Gestalt," as well as information on the human who was the first successful example of the Gestalt process.
- Having acquired information regarding humanity, the network's structure changed once more, becoming what might better be called a meta network (or a "concept", to borrow the words of the machines). This led directly to the formation of the ego we identify as N2.
...So then! To sum up: For hundreds of years, we've been fighting a network of machines with the ghost of humanity at its core. We've been living in a stupid *****ing world where we fight an endless war that we COULDN'T POSSIBLY LOSE, all for the sake of some Council of Humanity on the moon that doesn't even exist.
I don't know what the point is to all this, but I swear I will kill every evolutionary dead-end machine lifeform, as well as every single asshole behind Project YoRHa.
I'm coming for all your heads. ***** you.
Information Analysis Officer,
Jackass
I actually didn't, that explains a TON. Thanks. That said,
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Your labeling of it as the "correct" option has everything to do with gameplay advantage rather than being involved in the setting / moral conundrum presented. Which is fine to play it as a video game and nothing else.
They are not distinct. Or at least they should not be. And it's more than just a gameplay advantage.
It's a locked unique weapon (which is even required to obtain in order to access the secret boss). You literally cannot fully complete the game without choosing to hack Pascal.
And again, story / morality-wise, we're not shown anything positive from either other choice. Only hacking Pascal results in positive feedback from a story perspective (even if one argues that it isn't Pascal but some new intelligence in Pascal's body, it's still a life where otherwise there's either nothing or probably nothing).
You might disagree with the conclusion (and I certainly agree that it doesn't line up with many of the other messages in the game, chaotic and contradictory as they often are). But if Yoko Taro wasn't intending to communicate which answer was "right," he screwed it up pretty thoroughly.
And yeah, 2B dying and not coming back until after Route E's ending is the worst thing. The best part of the game is that tiny period at the beginning of Route C up until 2B dies. It's all downhill from there, with less interesting characters and an increasingly ridiculous story. And Route B was mostly bad. It's sad, because the parts of the game that are good are really, really good.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
I think what you choose to do with Pascal is more of a reflection of your values than anything else in the game—certainly more than how you treat the ending
Not to say that it reflects on you morally, because it does not. It just reflects on how you see the tiny world the game presents you with
Okay so I guess this is all the spoilers for the game or something.
I was really hoping that, regardless of choosing 9S or A2 at the end, it would lead to the same conclusion but different perspectives. Having two distinct endings actually kinda sucks, because now I don't know what happens to 9S after A2 saves him.
I'm assuming that Ending E is the pods talking about saving the data of the three heroes. If I had chosen not to save them, would it just not have done that stuff?
Anyway, all that stuff set aside, as weird as it may be with how much the game is rooted in despair, I came away from it feeling good. I guess it's that, with all the people I've known in my life, I've seen people have trouble coping with things. Sometimes they're able to overcome it eventually, and sometimes they give in. It's those people that give in that make me realize how important it is to just be there for others, whether I know them well or not. Stubbornly so, even. Sometimes there is no good answer or resolution to what is going on in peoples' lives. And it hurts. It hurts to be powerless when being the one in that position, or when being the person observing and wanting to help. As I got older though, I learned that at the very least, when people aren't alone, that much can make a difference. I guess it's weird that I am thinking about all that given how the game goes but... it's where I'm at. It's why I didn't blink at the threat of my save file being scrubbed. It's just a game, as the game was hell bent on telling me (and other players who were telling me I'm shit). But screw that.
I wish there was a little more going on with the red twins in the tower and the whole "and now we're going into spaaaaaaace" stuff. It seemed out of nowhere with no build-up or hinting-at from the start. Between that and how lame Adam and Eve are, as far as the PLOT goes, feh. The world building, experiences the characters have and their perspective on things, all of that is grade-A. More like this please.
Oh also,
2B's opening lines about wanting to kill 'god' is really ironic given that the androids revere humanity as their collective 'god' and 9S goes goddamn crazy when he finds out god has been dead all along.
While the machine lifeform network was destroyed following the collapse of the Tower, a great deal of previously unknown information regarding machine lifeforms and aliens was recovered from the wreckage. As part of this analysis, we compiled research and conjecture regarding both the machine lifeform network and the lifeform Codename N2—commonly known as the Red Girls—that was thought to have been commanding them.
- Machine lifeforms are weapons created by the aliens. The only command given for their behavior was to "defeat the enemy." However, it appears that their capacity for growth and evolution went too far, and they eventually turned on and killed their creators.
- At this point, machine lifeforms recognized that the goal of "defeating the enemy" actually REQUIRED an enemy. In order to maintain this singular objective, they reached the contradictory conclusion that their current enemies—the androids—could not be annihilated completely, lest they no longer have an enemy to defeat.
- In order to resolve this inherent contradiction, the machine lifeforms began to intentionally cause deficiencies in their network, diversifying the vectors of evolution for all machines. This is the cause behind some of the more "special" machine lifeforms, such as Pascal and the Forest King.
- Meanwhile, the deficient network began repeating a process of self-repair while incorporating surrounding information, until it finally reached a fixed state as a new form of network. Traces of information regarding human memories from the quantum server of the old model were discovered, indicating that it had integrated them during the final stages of its growth process. Said server contained a record of the discarded "Project Gestalt," as well as information on the human who was the first successful example of the Gestalt process.
- Having acquired information regarding humanity, the network's structure changed once more, becoming what might better be called a meta network (or a "concept", to borrow the words of the machines). This led directly to the formation of the ego we identify as N2.
...So then! To sum up: For hundreds of years, we've been fighting a network of machines with the ghost of humanity at its core. We've been living in a stupid *****ing world where we fight an endless war that we COULDN'T POSSIBLY LOSE, all for the sake of some Council of Humanity on the moon that doesn't even exist.
I don't know what the point is to all this, but I swear I will kill every evolutionary dead-end machine lifeform, as well as every single asshole behind Project YoRHa.
I'm coming for all your heads. ***** you.
Information Analysis Officer,
Jackass
I actually didn't, that explains a TON. Thanks. That said,
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
It's a kind of fish I think I've had before IRL. I say think because 1) it's just a broad name for a bunch of kinds and 2) there's a kind of fish that was sold at the market in the Portuguese community that my Portuguese grandmother lived in, seasonal based, and nobody in my family knew the name for it in English. But when I look up photo references, it looks like a mackerel. After you clean them, you just batter them, give them a pan fry in some oil, and chomp away like it's a chicken tender. Like the whole thing, including the head, tail, and even the bones are brittle enough to just chew to pieces too. It's good, though.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
dog you can straight up buy achievements
The game goes out of its way to say that doing everything in a game for the sake of doing everything is dumb
perhaps the problem is in presuming that full completion of a game has a connection to morality
Games that give players moral choices take a stance with that choice in how they present the outcomes. That means both story and gameplay consequences.
This is not some weird or disconnected statement, and I don't think it would be remotely controversial in any other thread. This is how games - hell, communications in media in general - actually work. When you see the outcome of your decision, you see what the writer thought of it, to varying levels of ambiguity.
Here, it's crystal clear what the "right" decision is according to the individuals responsible for this scene. There is no question. They show a positive story outcome and reward the player with tons of cash, grinding shortcuts, a new toy, and ability to continue progressing to see and enjoy all the game's content. The other choices give little to no reward and story-based punishment.
Now that's not saying that it's the actual "real" correct moral choice in terms of real life philosophy or morality. That's just what the writer or writers think (or what they mistakenly communicated if that wasn't their intent).
It's potentially interesting to discuss the moral conundrum in real life, if you can extract the game's general silliness to get there. But that's a very different beast compared to what's the "correct" choice in the game. From any angle apart from what makes you personally comfortable, there's only the one answer.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
This is another area where implementation fails the message.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
dog you can straight up buy achievements
The game goes out of its way to say that doing everything in a game for the sake of doing everything is dumb
These two things are entirely unrelated.
The point of the secret boss isn't trophies, as you pointed out. It's enjoying all the content of the game you bought. That boss is really enjoyable to fight imo and quite a spectacle to behold.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
+1
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
perhaps the problem is in presuming that full completion of a game has a connection to morality
Games that give players moral choices take a stance with that choice in how they present the outcomes. That means both story and gameplay consequences.
This is not some weird or disconnected statement, and I don't think it would be remotely controversial in any other thread. This is how games - hell, communications in media in general - actually work. When you see the outcome of your decision, you see what the writer thought of it, to varying levels of ambiguity.
Here, it's crystal clear what the "right" decision is according to the individuals responsible for this scene. There is no question. They show a positive story outcome and reward the player with tons of cash, grinding shortcuts, a new toy, and ability to continue progressing to see and enjoy all the game's content. The other choices give little to no reward and story-based punishment.
Now that's not saying that it's the actual "real" correct moral choice in terms of real life philosophy or morality. That's just what the writer or writers think (or what they mistakenly communicated if that wasn't their intent).
It's potentially interesting to discuss the moral conundrum in real life, if you can extract the game's general silliness to get there. But that's a very different beast compared to what's the "correct" choice in the game. From any angle apart from what makes you personally comfortable, there's only the one answer.
That is not true at all.
Writing a piece of fiction does not require a scientific explanation, or "seeing is believing" effect, for all aspects of that piece of work. Silent Hill, generally speaking, doesn't give hard explanations about what's going on or why. A lot of it is pieced together by the players, whether they're correct with the author's intent or not. And look at Star Wars. The original trilogy had no explanation of what the Force was, and nobody really wanted one. Then Lucas decided to try and Star Trek things up by giving a hard explanation, and we get some stupid answer that is quickly abandoned after it was discovered how much audiences hated it.
There's a lot of strength in creating art when you leave things to interpretation. In the case of Pascal, just because one option results in him being present in some fashion and serving a game function doesn't mean it's the right one. In fact, that game function he serves is supposed to highlight what happens when the compassionate person is replaced. He sells the body parts of the 'children.' It's supposed to highlight "OH GOD THIS WAS A MISTAKE I MADE HIM AN UNINTENTIONAL MONSTER." Yeah, you've pointed out that achievements or whatever are tied to this, but given that the game director very plainly derides achievements as a thing to pursue, to the point that you can just buy them, means that director is actually showing their disdain for that option you're calling the 'correct' one.
So what about when Pascal is dead or left alone?
Well, when Pascal is dead, they're dead, and you don't see anything reflecting that. On the shallow end, we can kick our feet in the sand about why we don't see that impact. Or we can realize what the game has been pushing with its narrative and realize that Pascal literally has nobody left that knows him at that point, beyond the Resistance leader, 9S, and A2. And who among them knows that Pascal is gone when that time comes? What would it mean for them? Especially in 9S' case, who always had doubts in the first place.
So leaving Pascal alive - which was a brilliant subtle option to present - without erasing their memory remains. What happens to Pascal? Again, we can be angry that the writers don't spell it out. Or we can think about what the game has been messaging the whole time. That people don't know how to handle grief sometimes. Does Pascal wander? Does Pascal kill himself? Is Pascal killed by the machines? We're not supposed to know, that's the point. And going back to what I said about the audience interpreting things, A2 says nothing to Pascal when you walk out on him. "A2, how could you?" is all we get before the doors close and the chapter concludes. Because A2 said nothing, for me, I was able to interpret it as her letting Pascal have the choice to come to live with the grief, or do something with it. I'm sure some people took it to mean A2 was just being a jerk to a machine. It's open, and that's the beauty of it.
. Both times. Felt like the right thing to do, to me.
I really wish I was able to facilitate that situation with how I perceived it. Luckily the game doesn't enforce a way it's meant to be played out though.
+1
Options
Erin The RedThe Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMABaton Rouge, LARegistered Userregular
. Both times. Felt like the right thing to do, to me.
I really wish I was able to facilitate that situation with how I perceived it. Luckily the game doesn't enforce a way it's meant to be played out though.
For me it was a lot of 'regardless of the circumstances, you chose to do these things. These are the consequences. 2b was done with wiping memories. So was I. Never again. For good or for ill. Life has no Mulligans. I'm sorry,
Pascal. I wish you could have been spared that whole experience. Having to sacrifice your values. Lose the village. All of it. But if they died and you forget them, then they're gone forever. A part of them still lives as long as you do
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
This is another area where implementation fails the message.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
yes I did, I helped someone and they ultimately got to make a similar choice
this is like, the most fucking miserable interpretation of the ending I've ever seen
perhaps the problem is in presuming that full completion of a game has a connection to morality
Games that give players moral choices take a stance with that choice in how they present the outcomes. That means both story and gameplay consequences.
This is not some weird or disconnected statement, and I don't think it would be remotely controversial in any other thread. This is how games - hell, communications in media in general - actually work. When you see the outcome of your decision, you see what the writer thought of it, to varying levels of ambiguity.
Here, it's crystal clear what the "right" decision is according to the individuals responsible for this scene. There is no question. They show a positive story outcome and reward the player with tons of cash, grinding shortcuts, a new toy, and ability to continue progressing to see and enjoy all the game's content. The other choices give little to no reward and story-based punishment.
Now that's not saying that it's the actual "real" correct moral choice in terms of real life philosophy or morality. That's just what the writer or writers think (or what they mistakenly communicated if that wasn't their intent).
It's potentially interesting to discuss the moral conundrum in real life, if you can extract the game's general silliness to get there. But that's a very different beast compared to what's the "correct" choice in the game. From any angle apart from what makes you personally comfortable, there's only the one answer.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
This is another area where implementation fails the message.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
dog you can straight up buy achievements
The game goes out of its way to say that doing everything in a game for the sake of doing everything is dumb
These two things are entirely unrelated.
The point of the secret boss isn't trophies, as you pointed out. It's enjoying all the content of the game you bought. That boss is really enjoyable to fight imo and quite a spectacle to behold.
I am very sorry that your humanities teachers failed you
The obvious reality of course is that it's a false choice. Pulled our of game context, here's what we're presented with.
A friend, ally, and all around good person suffers terrible, traumatic tragedy. DO YOU:
A. Kill him
B. Kill him in a different way
C. Abandon him
So. What's the right answer?
D. Fuck You.
You sit your ass down and you help and comfort him. You pull him away from the site of the trauma. You get help from others if it's required.
You talk him down from suicide. You hold him as he screams during his panic attacks and make sure he isn't alone when things are bad. You find a therapist that can help, both with the short term crisis and the long term healing. You get him whatever medical help is needed and watch closely for bad side effects.
You listen when he's able to talk - about his feelings, his awful experiences, his self esteem problems, his fears. You protect him from unnecessary triggers and console when you inevitably fail.
When he's unable to work, you support him so he doesn't go homeless and starving and without medication. You put your needs on the backburner, along with any real semblance of a normal life, until he's okay enough to take care of himself again. And that could take a really long time.
That's the moral goddamn choice. And the last 5 years of my life.
This hack writing is offensive to survivors and those close to them. It sends harmful, pessimistic messages about their reality and chances of recovering to a normal life.
And if your friend is a robot AI in a post-apocalyptic hellscape, and you're too busy on a quest for revenge to save the world to help?
Then you back up his memories first, or render him unconscious, whatever you have to fucking do until you can take care of things.
Choosing which is most moral among A-C? Waste of time. They're all wrong answers. Horribly wrong answers.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited November 2017
Okay but we have the context. You can't change the circumstance by saying the context is suddenly not there when it is.
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
This is another area where implementation fails the message.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
yes I did, I helped someone and they ultimately got to make a similar choice
this is like, the most fucking miserable interpretation of the ending I've ever seen
It's the truth. No one's game was easier because of anyone's save game sacrifice. Otherwise the first round of players would not have beaten it.
The game makes you think otherwise. But it is not real. It is a lie. A reasonable lie, for what they were communicating. Feeling like you helped someone is the point, after all.
Whether or not you actually did (you didn't) is entirely inconsequential to that.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
Okay I have to take a break for the night, emotions ran pretty high during route C (which I'm still not done with).
That little choose-your-own-adventure thing with the twins was odd, but I'm glad I'm figuring out more about the background of why any of this is happening at all. I'm kind of shocked to see that androids are just THAT into the idea of protecting humanity.
I'm assuming that "Replicants" were supposed to be a means of saving humanity from, what, a plague or something? I dunno what "relapses" are yet.
Also nice little bombshell about the blackboxes and their origin. YORHA models aren't actually androids eh? Now I get why emotions "weren't permitted" - it's probably a safeguard against the YORHA models finding out they're not actually capable of emotion since they're technically machines. But then, they've all clearly underestimated the machines being capable of that stuff (as long as they aren't attached to the network) so maybe it was moot all along?
I'm currently at the point where 9S entered the tower, and the game swapped me back to A2. I have a feeling this is my last chance to do some things though there's a locked chest or two I forgot to ran 9S over to. OH WELL I guess I'll have to play the whole thing over again.
Replicants are a thing from the original Nier
Re: the blackboxes, I don't think it's that the androids are incapable of emoting. after all 9S seems pretty sad and angry. I think it's more that the yorha androids are actually machines, and they're forbidden from emoting because it's important to the androids to convince themselves that machines are subsubhuman, unlike them, who are just subhuman.
Oh yeah, you're probably right.
People being shitty to other people makes more sense than whatever shit I imagined.
This game is full of smiles and rainbows.
Route C Alt route
So if you wipe pascal's memory, you find him in the village later, and he will sell you the body parts, and machine cores of the kids he's been scrounging.
It's pretty grim.
Route C
Yeah I....killed Pascal.
Wiping his memory didn't seem right, it seemed awful, and walking away seemed like the coward's way out, so....
The only correct option is wiping his memory, because then he'll sell items to you that you need to upgrade various weaponry to their max levels, drastically reducing the grind you need to do for those items (plus a unique weapon that's pretty great). He also seems reasonably happy. The other options, to my knowledge, have zero beneficial outcomes to the player, and plot-wise he's either dead or miserable/insane (or maybe dead both ways? he might suicide when you leave?).
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
Dude...what? What? Do you really think that I'm thinking about the full completionist run when I'm presented with a moral problem like that?
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
This is another area where implementation fails the message.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
yes I did, I helped someone and they ultimately got to make a similar choice
this is like, the most fucking miserable interpretation of the ending I've ever seen
It's the truth. No one's game was easier because of anyone's save game sacrifice. Otherwise the first round of players would not have beaten it.
The game makes you think otherwise. But it is not real. It is a lie. A reasonable lie, for what they were communicating. Feeling like you helped someone is the point, after all.
Whether or not you actually did (you didn't) is entirely inconsequential to that.
You talk about sacrificing the rest of the game or the quest for Pascal, or someone, to help them through trauma, but you think its useless to sacrifice your save data to help someone else out at the end, to send a message of hope, to be a part of their journey, so maybe they can make it through too?
Okay but we have the context. You can't change the circumstance by saying the context is suddenly not there when it is.
I meant the gameplay context. The thing people were complaining to me about bringing up. Not the story.
You can't really look at the "gameplay context" as some separate, special thing detached from everything else though.
Like, a huge part of this game (and all Yoko Taro games, really) is asking the player to think about why they are taking specific gameplay actions and what that actually means.
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I didn't get to play as much as I liked this weekend because of work but I got some time in.
I was able to snag a great Pre-Black Friday deal and got a new 4K TV and PS4 Pro for cheaper than it should have been. I didn't think this could look better but my god is it impressive on the new setup.
Routes is a misnomer really, it’s more like chapters. Just keep playing when the game seems to imply you’re done.
I'm assuming that Ending E is the pods talking about saving the data of the three heroes. If I had chosen not to save them, would it just not have done that stuff?
Anyway, all that stuff set aside, as weird as it may be with how much the game is rooted in despair, I came away from it feeling good. I guess it's that, with all the people I've known in my life, I've seen people have trouble coping with things. Sometimes they're able to overcome it eventually, and sometimes they give in. It's those people that give in that make me realize how important it is to just be there for others, whether I know them well or not. Stubbornly so, even. Sometimes there is no good answer or resolution to what is going on in peoples' lives. And it hurts. It hurts to be powerless when being the one in that position, or when being the person observing and wanting to help. As I got older though, I learned that at the very least, when people aren't alone, that much can make a difference. I guess it's weird that I am thinking about all that given how the game goes but... it's where I'm at. It's why I didn't blink at the threat of my save file being scrubbed. It's just a game, as the game was hell bent on telling me (and other players who were telling me I'm shit). But screw that.
I wish there was a little more going on with the red twins in the tower and the whole "and now we're going into spaaaaaaace" stuff. It seemed out of nowhere with no build-up or hinting-at from the start. Between that and how lame Adam and Eve are, as far as the PLOT goes, feh. The world building, experiences the characters have and their perspective on things, all of that is grade-A. More like this please.
If you don't choose to save the data you just get normal credits and then get kicked back to chapter select.
And yeah I think Nier Automata is ultimately a hopeful game. Based on interviews I think Yoko Taro feels the same.
This game does its absolute best to get in the way of its own messages whenever it can.
You've erased Pascal in order to do it. The machine that remains behind, wearing his name, is not him.
Otherwise it's up to the individual to decide whether or not they are willing to assist his suicide, and if so, in what manner.
I have some personal feelings about it so for me, walking out was the only choice. A2 is unfortunately not up to the task of talking Pascal down.
Did you read this document after C?
And again, story / morality-wise, we're not shown anything positive from either other choice. Only hacking Pascal results in positive feedback from a story perspective (even if one argues that it isn't Pascal but some new intelligence in Pascal's body, it's still a life where otherwise there's either nothing or probably nothing).
You might disagree with the conclusion (and I certainly agree that it doesn't line up with many of the other messages in the game, chaotic and contradictory as they often are). But if Yoko Taro wasn't intending to communicate which answer was "right," he screwed it up pretty thoroughly.
And yeah, 2B dying and not coming back until after Route E's ending is the worst thing. The best part of the game is that tiny period at the beginning of Route C up until 2B dies. It's all downhill from there, with less interesting characters and an increasingly ridiculous story. And Route B was mostly bad. It's sad, because the parts of the game that are good are really, really good.
Not to say that it reflects on you morally, because it does not. It just reflects on how you see the tiny world the game presents you with
*guitar riff*
*eats mackerel*
It's not about completing the fucking game, it's about the life of another living creature! It's not about the beneficial outcome for me, it's about trying to make the best of a bad situation for someone else.
I left my save data behind even though I would've liked to play a little more because I wanted to help somebody. completion of the game is nothing.
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
The game goes out of its way to say that doing everything in a game for the sake of doing everything is dumb
This is not some weird or disconnected statement, and I don't think it would be remotely controversial in any other thread. This is how games - hell, communications in media in general - actually work. When you see the outcome of your decision, you see what the writer thought of it, to varying levels of ambiguity.
Here, it's crystal clear what the "right" decision is according to the individuals responsible for this scene. There is no question. They show a positive story outcome and reward the player with tons of cash, grinding shortcuts, a new toy, and ability to continue progressing to see and enjoy all the game's content. The other choices give little to no reward and story-based punishment.
Now that's not saying that it's the actual "real" correct moral choice in terms of real life philosophy or morality. That's just what the writer or writers think (or what they mistakenly communicated if that wasn't their intent).
It's potentially interesting to discuss the moral conundrum in real life, if you can extract the game's general silliness to get there. But that's a very different beast compared to what's the "correct" choice in the game. From any angle apart from what makes you personally comfortable, there's only the one answer.
You didn't help anyone by deleting your save. Anyone who gets your "helper" would have got one anyway. And they would have gotten one with a helpful message, because practically all of them are. The only actual benefit is the vanity of getting your username into their game.
That of course wasn't your motivation. It's suspension of disbelief. You're choosing to believe you helped someone because that's part of the experience that you're enjoying from the game. That's great for those who can. I couldn't suspend my belief that far, mostly because I was already pulled way out of the game''s fiction by its poor storytelling and inconsistency.
The point of the secret boss isn't trophies, as you pointed out. It's enjoying all the content of the game you bought. That boss is really enjoyable to fight imo and quite a spectacle to behold.
There's a lot of strength in creating art when you leave things to interpretation. In the case of Pascal, just because one option results in him being present in some fashion and serving a game function doesn't mean it's the right one. In fact, that game function he serves is supposed to highlight what happens when the compassionate person is replaced. He sells the body parts of the 'children.' It's supposed to highlight "OH GOD THIS WAS A MISTAKE I MADE HIM AN UNINTENTIONAL MONSTER." Yeah, you've pointed out that achievements or whatever are tied to this, but given that the game director very plainly derides achievements as a thing to pursue, to the point that you can just buy them, means that director is actually showing their disdain for that option you're calling the 'correct' one.
So what about when Pascal is dead or left alone?
Well, when Pascal is dead, they're dead, and you don't see anything reflecting that. On the shallow end, we can kick our feet in the sand about why we don't see that impact. Or we can realize what the game has been pushing with its narrative and realize that Pascal literally has nobody left that knows him at that point, beyond the Resistance leader, 9S, and A2. And who among them knows that Pascal is gone when that time comes? What would it mean for them? Especially in 9S' case, who always had doubts in the first place.
So leaving Pascal alive - which was a brilliant subtle option to present - without erasing their memory remains. What happens to Pascal? Again, we can be angry that the writers don't spell it out. Or we can think about what the game has been messaging the whole time. That people don't know how to handle grief sometimes. Does Pascal wander? Does Pascal kill himself? Is Pascal killed by the machines? We're not supposed to know, that's the point. And going back to what I said about the audience interpreting things, A2 says nothing to Pascal when you walk out on him. "A2, how could you?" is all we get before the doors close and the chapter concludes. Because A2 said nothing, for me, I was able to interpret it as her letting Pascal have the choice to come to live with the grief, or do something with it. I'm sure some people took it to mean A2 was just being a jerk to a machine. It's open, and that's the beauty of it.
Pascal. I wish you could have been spared that whole experience. Having to sacrifice your values. Lose the village. All of it. But if they died and you forget them, then they're gone forever. A part of them still lives as long as you do
this is like, the most fucking miserable interpretation of the ending I've ever seen
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
I am very sorry that your humanities teachers failed you
http://www.audioentropy.com/
A friend, ally, and all around good person suffers terrible, traumatic tragedy. DO YOU:
A. Kill him
B. Kill him in a different way
C. Abandon him
So. What's the right answer?
D. Fuck You.
You sit your ass down and you help and comfort him. You pull him away from the site of the trauma. You get help from others if it's required.
You talk him down from suicide. You hold him as he screams during his panic attacks and make sure he isn't alone when things are bad. You find a therapist that can help, both with the short term crisis and the long term healing. You get him whatever medical help is needed and watch closely for bad side effects.
You listen when he's able to talk - about his feelings, his awful experiences, his self esteem problems, his fears. You protect him from unnecessary triggers and console when you inevitably fail.
When he's unable to work, you support him so he doesn't go homeless and starving and without medication. You put your needs on the backburner, along with any real semblance of a normal life, until he's okay enough to take care of himself again. And that could take a really long time.
That's the moral goddamn choice. And the last 5 years of my life.
This hack writing is offensive to survivors and those close to them. It sends harmful, pessimistic messages about their reality and chances of recovering to a normal life.
And if your friend is a robot AI in a post-apocalyptic hellscape, and you're too busy on a quest for revenge to save the world to help?
Then you back up his memories first, or render him unconscious, whatever you have to fucking do until you can take care of things.
Choosing which is most moral among A-C? Waste of time. They're all wrong answers. Horribly wrong answers.
The game makes you think otherwise. But it is not real. It is a lie. A reasonable lie, for what they were communicating. Feeling like you helped someone is the point, after all.
Whether or not you actually did (you didn't) is entirely inconsequential to that.
You're right, it never helps anything anyway
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Well I'm certainly not an iPhone. They just say things without understanding
You can't really look at the "gameplay context" as some separate, special thing detached from everything else though.
Like, a huge part of this game (and all Yoko Taro games, really) is asking the player to think about why they are taking specific gameplay actions and what that actually means.