As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options

overwatch: rip battle mercy august 2017 - august 2017

14243454748101

Posts

  • Options
    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    A good, situationally aware Mercy is such a shit wrecker.

  • Options
    VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    As a generic comment re Mercy's playstyle: the difference between a bad Mercy and a good Mercy is pronounced and if you can't recognize the difference then you are absolutely part of the problem.

    Arguably the people who claim she's a "no skill" pick are the ones who are shithouse with her in the first place, they just don't know they are because they have no fucking idea how to play her.

    Vivixenne on
    XBOX: NOVADELPHINI | DISCORD: NOVADELPHINI #7387 | TWITTER
  • Options
    KanaKana Registered User regular
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »

    I'm hardly going to disagree with unfair toxicity towards women in online games, including overwatch, but this article's argument that basically the only reason that people dislike Mercy is reaching awfully far. Like the argument basically boils down to, "Lots of women play support" + "there's complaints about Mercy" = "therefore the complaints are based on misogyny."

    Like, it even quotes a lot of the actual arguments - unlike other heroes mastering Mercy doesn't tend to translate over to other heroes or roles, her passive "hide somewhere and sweep in with rez" playstyle isn't really fun for anyone involved, a lower skill ceiling, a tendency for high-level Mercy players to be one-tricks. But the article just waves its hand and says nono, it's sexism. Because only women play Mercy??

    Like, I find high level players and their obsession with mechanical skill as tiring as the next guy (these are the guys who insisted that Winston sucked until Miro destroyed everyone with him at the world cup), but those complaints about Mercy are made whether it's a man or woman playing the character. And they're based on real arguments about fundamental game design.

    By all means criticize sexism when it's sexism, but this article just points to some generic online sexism, and then handwaves a connection from that to complaints about gameplay design, without ever really making a real case for it. Which comes across as especially weak when they're quoting Seagull, who's like the least toxic dude on the internet.

    I actually disagree with you on this one, and I'm aware you and I are usually on the same page about most things. I reckon the abuse against Mercy mains would not be as pronounced if it wasn't that many women playing Support.

    And, interestingly, lots of women play Support because we're told in many different ways (overtly and subversively) that we're not good enough to DPS. So, yeah, way to tell us that we're only good with a "no-skill" hero and then NOT LET US PLAY ANYONE ELSE EITHER. You can't win, and you better believe women absolutely see a higher rate of this than men.

    Like, it even stems back to people being surprised I'm a Support main but I don't play a lot of Mercy. They mean it as a compliment to me, but that's some backhanded shit there, too.

    See, I don't disagree that the complaints against Mercy as a character combine with misogyny. I agree with everything you wrote. It would be silly of me not to, anyone even semi-conscious of online bullshit should agree with that.

    But I don't think your argument is the one that the article was making. You're basically arguing, as far as I can tell, that A (complaints about Mercy's design) and B (Misogyny) synthesize into C, which is the particularly toxic atmosphere against Mercy mains. Which is fair, but I think the article went much further than that, specifically pointing to critiques of Mercy's design as a matter of gameplay, and then arguing that those critiques themselves are based on misogyny. Not A+B=C, but just a=b=c.

    That's where my real problem with the article lies. Especially when it's taking critiques from a specific player, Seagull, a dude with a sterling reputation for his online behavior, putting his comments right alongside just a straight-up misogynist, and then pointing at them collectively as the same thing. That's the part that bothers me.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • Options
    MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    I had a Mei on my team in comp earlier

    a few people started in with the "you should switch" at the beginning of the game

    but then there were a couple of truly choice walls that made a few of us go "yeah ok definitely keep doing that"

    and then

    all six of us are on the center point in Oasis City Center, kinda clumped up around the left side of the center building

    D.Va shoots her ult directly at us

    and then boom Mei wall blocks it and saves literally all of us

    it didn't get POTG because there's no real way to calculate that I guess

    but it got Play Of My Heart

  • Options
    VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Kana wrote: »
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »

    I'm hardly going to disagree with unfair toxicity towards women in online games, including overwatch, but this article's argument that basically the only reason that people dislike Mercy is reaching awfully far. Like the argument basically boils down to, "Lots of women play support" + "there's complaints about Mercy" = "therefore the complaints are based on misogyny."

    Like, it even quotes a lot of the actual arguments - unlike other heroes mastering Mercy doesn't tend to translate over to other heroes or roles, her passive "hide somewhere and sweep in with rez" playstyle isn't really fun for anyone involved, a lower skill ceiling, a tendency for high-level Mercy players to be one-tricks. But the article just waves its hand and says nono, it's sexism. Because only women play Mercy??

    Like, I find high level players and their obsession with mechanical skill as tiring as the next guy (these are the guys who insisted that Winston sucked until Miro destroyed everyone with him at the world cup), but those complaints about Mercy are made whether it's a man or woman playing the character. And they're based on real arguments about fundamental game design.

    By all means criticize sexism when it's sexism, but this article just points to some generic online sexism, and then handwaves a connection from that to complaints about gameplay design, without ever really making a real case for it. Which comes across as especially weak when they're quoting Seagull, who's like the least toxic dude on the internet.

    I actually disagree with you on this one, and I'm aware you and I are usually on the same page about most things. I reckon the abuse against Mercy mains would not be as pronounced if it wasn't that many women playing Support.

    And, interestingly, lots of women play Support because we're told in many different ways (overtly and subversively) that we're not good enough to DPS. So, yeah, way to tell us that we're only good with a "no-skill" hero and then NOT LET US PLAY ANYONE ELSE EITHER. You can't win, and you better believe women absolutely see a higher rate of this than men.

    Like, it even stems back to people being surprised I'm a Support main but I don't play a lot of Mercy. They mean it as a compliment to me, but that's some backhanded shit there, too.

    See, I don't disagree that the complaints against Mercy as a character combine with misogyny. I agree with everything you wrote. It would be silly of me not to, anyone even semi-conscious of online bullshit should agree with that.

    But I don't think your argument is the one that the article was making. You're basically arguing, as far as I can tell, that A (complaints about Mercy's design) and B (Misogyny) synthesize into C, which is the particularly toxic atmosphere against Mercy mains. Which is fair, but I think the article went much further than that, specifically pointing to critiques of Mercy's design as a matter of gameplay, and then arguing that those critiques themselves are based on misogyny. Not A+B=C, but just a=b=c.

    That's where my real problem with the article lies. Especially when it's taking critiques from a specific player, Seagull, a dude with a sterling reputation for his online behavior, putting his comments right alongside just a straight-up misogynist, and then pointing at them collectively as the same thing. That's the part that bothers me.

    Yeah I still disagree with you, unfortunately. I think A=B=C is very accurate in my personal experience. I mean, let me break it down using that.

    A: complaints about Mercy's design
    B: misogyny
    C: toxic vs Mercy mains

    B = C is reasonably obvious; a relatively high proportion of Mercy mains are women. It's a known quantity and is likely driven by the fact that women aren't "allowed" to play DPS because the men are better at it. My evidence for that is anecdotal, but I doubt I'm in the minority.

    A = C is also obvious and requires no clarification.

    A = B is the bit we're struggling with here, I think. Critiquing her playstyle as bad or unfun is essentially saying that you cannot have fun - or, more importantly, be a skilled player - by doing what Mercy does. When, actually, plenty of people (lots of them women) obviously do. It stems from the assumption that she is a no-skill character to play, because she does not have the skills commonly touted as being actual "skill" (aim, twitch, etc). Never mind situational awareness, survival, map awareness, ult economy management, or shot-calling. If you can't aim, you're a nothing character. But valuing aim as a factor in a "skilled" character is where A = B comes from.

    That said, I reckon the truth isn't about aim at all. It's about roles. Put simply and in over-generalised terms: the cultural norms state that men demonstrate their dominance over others, either via strength or endurance. Women stay in the back and support. Ergo, men should dislike being Mercy, women should like being Mercy. And thus Mercy is bad because men think she's not FOR them. The pro scene is FOR men, so how dare Mercy exist in that space?

    Not every guy or girl fits that over-generalised summation (in fact, the majority probably don't); hell, I'm not a Mercy main myself! But in broader, sweeping terms, that is what I'm seeing in e-sports culture. Women play support, men play tank or DPS. Tank and DPS are frontline, masculine roles. You can take punches or you can punch people back. Support is backline and, more as a contrast to masculinity, is feminine. You stand back while the punches are taken or given.

    Mercy, as a hero who does not punch people much at all and avoids taking punches? A = B.

    Vivixenne on
    XBOX: NOVADELPHINI | DISCORD: NOVADELPHINI #7387 | TWITTER
  • Options
    miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered User regular
    hm, haven't quite seen this flavor of highlight reel bug before (every time i watched it the camera would pull slightly farther back)

    https://youtu.be/aYkCzS4YF0s

    also, it's a little annoying when you get the horizon audio glitch mid game, then you switch maps and it still persists

    uc3ufTB.png
  • Options
    AshcroftAshcroft LOL The PayloadRegistered User regular
    I read that turning the atmos sound on and off fixes that.

    ZD98Zka.png
  • Options
    SixshotStrikerSixshotStriker Registered User regular
    So in comp tonight, I came across a team that insisted running 4 dps. Don't ever run 4 dps. It's a trash fire/train wreck/disaster.

  • Options
    KanaKana Registered User regular
    I think you can probably move most tanks to that "not masculine enough" category as well (except for old Roadhog). The rush at the beginning of comp games to grab the DPS slots is always stupid.

    My problem with your argument is more about specifics. Yeah, the trends you describe are pretty generally true in everything from shooters to MMOs. I'm not going to defend that attitude, it's annoying as shit. But that doesn't explain why it's only Mercy that people are complaining about in this specific situation.

    There's specific complaints about Mercy's design that I think are very valid, and I think it's pretty unfair to lump all legit critiques of Mercy as merely an expression of misogyny. Especially when we're not talking about the general Overwatch playerbase, but specifically the context of competitive top 500.

    Anyway it's late and I'm going to bed.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • Options
    WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Kana wrote: »
    I think you can probably move most tanks to that "not masculine enough" category as well (except for old Roadhog). The rush at the beginning of comp games to grab the DPS slots is always stupid.

    My problem with your argument is more about specifics. Yeah, the trends you describe are pretty generally true in everything from shooters to MMOs. I'm not going to defend that attitude, it's annoying as shit. But that doesn't explain why it's only Mercy that people are complaining about in this specific situation.

    There's specific complaints about Mercy's design that I think are very valid, and I think it's pretty unfair to lump all legit critiques of Mercy as merely an expression of misogyny. Especially when we're not talking about the general Overwatch playerbase, but specifically the context of competitive top 500.

    Anyway it's late and I'm going to bed.

    Ya that dps is especially infuriating if you try and prevent it , so many times I've been first to pick a class, and pick tank or healer, like off the hop being all " hey I'm helping the comp , let's do it guys woo" type pick.
    Then 5 people ALL pick dps classes anyway, and then I switch to junkrat because screw tanking without a healer and vice versa.

    edit: and to show how common it is that I can't get one or the other, and I just switch to junkrat?
    n8vri11pldc8.jpg

    WiseManTobes on
    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • Options
    KharnorKharnor Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    I think you can probably move most tanks to that "not masculine enough" category as well (except for old Roadhog). The rush at the beginning of comp games to grab the DPS slots is always stupid.

    My problem with your argument is more about specifics. Yeah, the trends you describe are pretty generally true in everything from shooters to MMOs. I'm not going to defend that attitude, it's annoying as shit. But that doesn't explain why it's only Mercy that people are complaining about in this specific situation.

    There's specific complaints about Mercy's design that I think are very valid, and I think it's pretty unfair to lump all legit critiques of Mercy as merely an expression of misogyny. Especially when we're not talking about the general Overwatch playerbase, but specifically the context of competitive top 500.

    Anyway it's late and I'm going to bed.

    Ya that dps is especially infuriating if you try and prevent it , so many times I've been first to pick a class, and pick tank or healer, like off the hop being all " hey I'm helping the comp , let's do it guys woo" type pick.
    Then 5 people ALL pick dps classes anyway, and then I switch to junkrat because screw tanking without a healer and vice versa.

    edit: and to show how common it is that I can't get one or the other, and I just switch to junkrat?
    n8vri11pldc8.jpg

    BROTHER

  • Options
    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    As a DPS mercy main

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
    Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
  • Options
    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    I think I've actually heard one woman playing mercy in voice so far.. Since beta. Is voice chat in any way saved in blizzard servers, so they can ban toxic voice behavior?

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • Options
    EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't click with certain heroes but are there people who can't click with the "simpler" ones mechanically? Like player A can play a mean Handsy but struggles with Mercy because they are actually unable to?

    For me my non clickers are most of the offense, bastion, and handsy.

  • Options
    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    A lot of people don't hate Mercy.

    It has just become this new thing where people start to make a huge deal out of it for whatever reason. If this female gamer thing is the reason, that is news to me. I really don't look at any girls in the games I play any differently than the guys, and have yet to once be in a game where someone else does. I am aware that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and being like, not a girl means the likelyhood of me seeing it is way lower as well. But I can just speak for myself there. And I also play Mercy a lot and up until very recently didn't use voice chat. So I would have to say at least that I am shocked no one ever hit me with this whole thing about Mercy being to EZ to play and that I must be a girl for playing her or something.

    But to me, that article is kind of extra because this doesn't sound like some kind of thing that is outside the (sad or not) norm. I don't think Mercy as a character and the stigma is causing it, but rather just the easiest way to show sexism that those toxic people have latched on to. Sexism still exists period is all I am saying. Doesn't seem to me like any aspect of Overwatch is making it happen more than it already does. If those people hadn't heard somewhere that Mercy was an easy character and that only women play support, they would likely just go back to some other sexist comment because they would have something terrible to say either way.

    I am clearly not very experienced with this situation for obvious reasons, but that is just the things I see from the outside looking in. I can see how people are going to get annoyed at the fact that there ARE plenty of people out there who just attach the topic to any old thing and that can be just as bad as the act itself because it doesn't address the problem and basically makes those who might want to acknowledge it less likely to take it seriously.

  • Options
    EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    One of the guys I regularly play with was all, "what's with all these girls playing now. It didn't used to be this way." And I had to explain that yes, it actually was this way, they often just kept it to themselves before voice chat was a thing. He argued and I had to play the old gamer card on him before he relented. I'm pretty sure he's in college.

  • Options
    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    I actually think playing WoW squashed any misconceptions I may have had about girls and games.

    Working with a bunch of lady analysts at Blizzard probably helped.

    sarukun on
  • Options
    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    I guess that did it for me too. The former at least. One of the best Mages I knew back in Vanilla was a girl. She was an awesome person as well.

  • Options
    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Radius wrote: »
    As a DPS mercy main

    People definitely underestimate my damage potential as Mercy; I've won duels against ambushing Reapers because they think I can't aim.

  • Options
    templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Radius wrote: »
    As a DPS mercy main

    People definitely underestimate my damage potential as Mercy; I've won duels against ambushing Reapers because they think I can't aim.

    I can't aim, so all the spray characters are super helpful to have. Symmetra, Winston, Mei, and to some extent Lucio, all make me look way more talented than I actually am.

    Also, OMG Lucio is so much more fun when you rebind jump to the bumper. I honestly get a little sad that I can't wallride when I end up with other characters.

    Twitch.tv/FiercePunchStudios | PSN | Steam | Discord | SFV CFN: templewulf
  • Options
    Care Free BombCare Free Bomb Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    I think you can probably move most tanks to that "not masculine enough" category as well (except for old Roadhog). The rush at the beginning of comp games to grab the DPS slots is always stupid.

    My problem with your argument is more about specifics. Yeah, the trends you describe are pretty generally true in everything from shooters to MMOs. I'm not going to defend that attitude, it's annoying as shit. But that doesn't explain why it's only Mercy that people are complaining about in this specific situation.

    There's specific complaints about Mercy's design that I think are very valid, and I think it's pretty unfair to lump all legit critiques of Mercy as merely an expression of misogyny. Especially when we're not talking about the general Overwatch playerbase, but specifically the context of competitive top 500.

    Anyway it's late and I'm going to bed.

    Lucio and Zenyatta heal passively while shooting people, Ana heals by shooting people while shooting bad people. Shooting is a core part of the other healers which is a "valued" (read: masculine) skill while Mercy almost entirely focuses on running around and avoiding danger while managing the team's health which is a "devalued" (read: feminine) skill.

    8saxds2jkfoy.png
    3DS: 2019-9671-8106 NNID: RamblinMushroom
    Twitter/Tumblr
  • Options
    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    wondering, Symmetra doesn't have to aim either, does she get similar hate?

  • Options
    davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    wondering, Symmetra doesn't have to aim either, does she get similar hate?

    Hot take: Hanzo doesn't have to aim and is my most hated character in the whole game, it's not even close.

  • Options
    Care Free BombCare Free Bomb Registered User regular
    Symmetra absolutely gets shit for being a "no skill" hero

    8saxds2jkfoy.png
    3DS: 2019-9671-8106 NNID: RamblinMushroom
    Twitter/Tumblr
  • Options
    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    Sym is way worse to play against than Mercy

    2x39jD4.jpg
  • Options
    davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Yeah, again, saying a character requires no skill just illustrates that that person complaining doesn't understand how to play at least that character properly. Probably has little understanding how the strategy of the game works at all.

  • Options
    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Symmetra absolutely gets shit for being a "no skill" hero

    Which is hilarious because again the difference between a good Sym and a bad one is Stark, just like Mercy.

    Edit: I will also say that in a good team vs good team game, support is one of the harder and most stressful roles. And mercy is right up at the top. You're a priority target and while your gun doesn't suck if you're shooting you aren't doing your main job, so it's a frantic time managing that and heal targeting.

    Phoenix-D on
  • Options
    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    I love hanzo

    he's probably also the worst-designed character in the game, mechanically speaking

  • Options
    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    He's so cool though

    and bows are so cool

    and magic dragons are double cool

    2x39jD4.jpg
  • Options
    DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    Hanzo's design is fine? He's a sniper who can climb up walls to gain position. His recon arrow aids the team, and also helps him aim his scatter arrows (which help him shoot around corners) and his dragonstrike (which goes through walls). There's some luck involved, but there's luck involved with every hero, so...I don't really see the problem

  • Options
    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    Hanzo is really cool

    in certain situations he definitely does not have to aim, but you still have to put yourself in those situations and be able to fend people off when they dive you

    he's just not useful on every map, but he's hardly the only one who falls under that category

  • Options
    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    the skill floor on his primary fire is ridiculously high, which is probably for the best because he can kill half the cast from across the map, but that also means playing him is really frustrating until you've sunk hours into developing a sense for how his projectiles behave

    but then he's also got scatter arrow, which is a lot like roadhog's hook in that it just nukes a player with little risk or skill

    dragonstrike is fine, it's really hard to use effectively but with setup it's devastating, and it charges fast so even if you fuck it up, no big deal, it's the most reasonable thing in his kit

    I will also point out that saying "worst designed mechanics in Overwatch" is a bit like saying "weakest powerlifter" or "worst Spielberg movie", so, you know, he's still better than the goddamn huntsman

    Shorty on
  • Options
    HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    The only good thing about the huntsman is the exceptionally hilarious tauntkill shenanigans

  • Options
    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    As far as the Mercy complaints go the thing I don't get is in this Dive heavy meta Mercy and also Zen are proving to me much more viable picks more or at least on par with Ana simply cause she can struggle with her lack of mobility and projectile based healing.

    As far as skill goes. Honestly I follow a lot of high level streamers and even I get tired of them complaining about how its ways to mitigate them going around two tapping everything with McCree.

    And while improving mechanical skill is fun and important I do get annoyed by how many gamers love to dismiss the importance of smart tactical play.

    As for women mostly playing support, in my mind I think a lot of that may be in my experience women just being better team players. Try telling your average dude he isn't a DPS master and we need to try something new he'll probably throw a temper tantrum then throw the match.

  • Options
    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    To put it into perspective even though I'm a guy.

    I'm a tank/support main. Not cause I'm bad at DPS, actually quite good, but because I don't want to argue with the Hanzo main that we really don't need quad DPS every match of Comp I play.

    Dragkonias on
  • Options
    EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    My only gripe with Handsy is that I wish scatter arrow wasn't an instakill now that Roadhog can hardly instakill anyone anymore.

  • Options
    SkeithSkeith Registered User regular
    Hobnail wrote: »
    The only good thing about the huntsman is the exceptionally hilarious tauntkill shenanigans

    I had some pretty amazing ones with that Scout bat.

    aTBDrQE.jpg
  • Options
    AshcroftAshcroft LOL The PayloadRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
  • Options
    SirToastySirToasty Registered User regular
    I got potg as Genji which might be my first one? It is definitely the first that I felt good about. I also finished that round with 4 golds. I got the Sentai skin as motivation to get decent with him and it's starting to pay off!

  • Options
    AshcroftAshcroft LOL The PayloadRegistered User regular
    I got to play against a top 500 Genji player on Tuesday. They were getting their arcade boxes and somehow ended up matched into a CTF game with 11 gold players.

    It was like being chased around by Roy fucking Batty, only scarier and without the mercy.

    ZD98Zka.png
This discussion has been closed.