Cultural appropriation is a hard issue to grok in discussion because it's generally a loaded negative term but like, everything and even respectful use could also be cultural appropriation under a neutral understanding. It seems to generally boil down to a really fuzzy argument reminiscent of the "Should you credit the artist? Don't care/yes, in some fashion/yes, loudly/don't share other's work outside of specific contexts" debates.
In the end, I agree there should be more respect and understanding of the roots of art movements but on the other hand that winds up being a massive ask when you pile it on the performers or especially consumers of culture with roots older than they are, for every genre, across all forms of art.
This is why it always boils down to the histories for me.
Like as a part of general knowledge I don't expect every dumbass to know the cultural roots of dance music. However if someone is documenting the histories then it should be noted where dance music originated, and the contextual social pressures and environments that birthed the genre. If an art history major is looking into dance music they should learn that its roots are set in the gay community.
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
How do you intend to wear the keffiyeh and what do you expect it to signify? I feel like often people use it to signal a political position on the middle east.
However I feel like at the time. I'm not buying the one with the political pattern, obviously(?). It isn't intended to signal a position, really, it's mostly wanting a more versatile scarf and liking some of the patterns that the Hirbawi factory puts out.
(Also, I got one years ago for camping, because it keeps dust out of my face and eyes, and I feel guilty about buying a mass produced Chinese one in retrospect, so it's sort of an atonement for that)
hmmm wait maybe I actually don't know what a keffiyeh is
not that black and white thing often seen here as a neckscarf? Is it just sort of a generic scarf?
????
Right, so this was part of my confusion
You see a lot of stuff about keffiyehs as symbols of palestinian solidarity, and cultural icons (and appropriation being involved). But the more I dig into it, the more it seems like keffiyehs are... ~120cm square cotton scarves that are worn all over the middle east (because obviously they are, they're useful!) that are not easily distinguished from other square scarves, except that Yassir Arafat always wore a keffiyeh in a very specific pattern that has consequently become the symbol of solidarity (or of terrorist sympathization, if you're super extreme. I've seen many things argued!).
So it's this weird space where "keffiyeh" is generally a sort of generic scarf that tends to have certain historical patterns, but it also has this specific type that has specific meaning, and then you get this sort of gray area where people use other ones in a similar manner and it's all ???
oh interesting
well I have decided you should get some of these fantastically Russian-patterned floral headscarves if possible; I think you could make it work with the whole long skirt look
I've yet to see any argument for cultural appropriation being bad that was consistent
my conclusion has been that the cultural appropriation itself is totally subsidiary to the thing that is actually a problem.
summed quickly up as: it cannot be argued that cultural appropriation is negative in and of itself. When talked about here it seems usually to be that the thing that makes it bad in a specific case is if it involves marginalizing. Way I see it, that's the appropriate thing to call attention to: the marginalizing effect, or disrespect or offence, et cetera.
Because I am vehemently against the concept of "my culture is not theirs to steal" being a thing. To me it sounds like the basic underlying idea of anti-integration and anti-multiculturalism. Which is what I mean about inconsitency: It's only a problem when it is problematic, ie, for another reason than that idea.
to sum it up even quicker: why is the white man red is not problematic because white americans are not allowed to touch native american culture, it's because it's an insult wrapped in caricature.
I'm of a similar mindset; the contrapoints video and Pony's Lindsey Ellis talk about the idea that cultural appropriation can be neutral and a lot of times the issue is the execution or the fact that it's just outright racist like wahoo.
Of course this is a contentious thing because obviously that doesn't mesh with e.g. tilder's implied definition that appropriation is a negative example of cultural exchange, which I'd imagine Ellis would respond with "it's not exchange if the dominant culture is just taking something and putting it in respectfully" so now we're at a terminology crossroads where both groups are gesturing at how certain acts are insensitive and one is arguing that's what defined-as-bad appropriation is and the other is arguing that's why defined-neutrally appropriation can turn out shitty
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
How do you intend to wear the keffiyeh and what do you expect it to signify? I feel like often people use it to signal a political position on the middle east.
I have one that I got through basically the only channel that means you can vote something that's not deeply red, since I got mine in the army because it's a useful thing
Right, and I do not know what's up with it internationally or even all over the US, but in my circles it's something that you'd wear if you were, like, a jew who is super into palestine? Or presumably a non-jew who is super into palestine, I suppose. And it definitely has that political signalling whether or not you want that.
I also haven't seen one in forever so maybe they're passe.
Huh, I never ran into this. People with keffiyehs I know are the following:
1)Middle Eastern
2)Studied/lived in the Middle East
3)Do a lot of desert hiking because they are super useful
Never really been tied to a political statement in my mind outside you probably are interested, worked, or studied the Middle East at some point.
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
How do you intend to wear the keffiyeh and what do you expect it to signify? I feel like often people use it to signal a political position on the middle east.
However I feel like at the time. I'm not buying the one with the political pattern, obviously(?). It isn't intended to signal a position, really, it's mostly wanting a more versatile scarf and liking some of the patterns that the Hirbawi factory puts out.
(Also, I got one years ago for camping, because it keeps dust out of my face and eyes, and I feel guilty about buying a mass produced Chinese one in retrospect, so it's sort of an atonement for that)
hmmm wait maybe I actually don't know what a keffiyeh is
not that black and white thing often seen here as a neckscarf? Is it just sort of a generic scarf?
????
Right, so this was part of my confusion
You see a lot of stuff about keffiyehs as symbols of palestinian solidarity, and cultural icons (and appropriation being involved). But the more I dig into it, the more it seems like keffiyehs are... ~120cm square cotton scarves that are worn all over the middle east (because obviously they are, they're useful!) that are not easily distinguished from other square scarves, except that Yassir Arafat always wore a keffiyeh in a very specific pattern that has consequently become the symbol of solidarity (or of terrorist sympathization, if you're super extreme. I've seen many things argued!).
So it's this weird space where "keffiyeh" is generally a sort of generic scarf that tends to have certain historical patterns, but it also has this specific type that has specific meaning, and then you get this sort of gray area where people use other ones in a similar manner and it's all ???
hence the military thing: they use them because... well, they're worn all over the middle east for a practical reason
The thing with pepe though is that I still see people who are not alt right using the words feelsbadman (which is a pepe reference) and using monkaS and other such emotes in twitch chat
...I still use feelsbadman but I guess only in private discourse with my husband because I understand that it has all these cultural implications now
i think some stuff manages to wriggle free of a troubled past. Like no one thinks 'Hitler' when they see a VW Bug even tho Hitler commissioned it or whatever
(Oh god when I tried to look that up I wound up on a pro-Hitler propaganda site. Sorry, I mean a site that's "non-biased" about Hitler. Eep.)
I am not doing super great right now actually, I have had some Personal Revelations that make it very difficult for me to sleep so I've caught about five hours in two days, and it was not a good five hours. Also there's... stuff about a colleague at one of my jobs I can't talk about that is very stressful.
BUT after I mentioned that maybe it was time for me to move past bad webcomics, Donkey Kong sent me some primo shit, so now I have that joy again
@Donkey Kong what do you have to say for yourself you enabling bastard
I am not doing super great right now actually, I have had some Personal Revelations that make it very difficult for me to sleep so I've caught about five hours in two days, and it was not a good five hours. Also there's... stuff about a colleague at one of my jobs I can't talk about that is very stressful.
BUT after I mentioned that maybe it was time for me to move past bad webcomics, Donkey Kong sent me some primo shit, so now I have that joy again
Ironically, shemaghs have become really popular with grunting, shitheaded dudebros, racist dickbags, and Trump supporters
not out of solidarity with middle eastern cultures or anything, but because they see bearded sleeveless spec-for operator guys that they idolize wearing them. There's a specific look that has come to typify the American soldier in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflict (and all the fucked up stuff that goes along with that) and it's basically this guy:
See that shemagh he's wearing around his neck? Yeah, a lot of American and other allied soldiers started wearing those in Iraq and Afghanistan for a variety of different reasons (they're practical, for one thing) and because these ding dongs see these totally bad ass dudes wearing them, they want to wear them too. Totally ignoring the cultural context of why, or the original culture they came from, or whatever.
In one of those shitty DayZ clone games that my brother plays, the shemagh is just called an "Operator Scarf". Y'know, it's just that cool scarf that operator dudes wear!
The thing with pepe though is that I still see people who are not alt right using the words feelsbadman (which is a pepe reference) and using monkaS and other such emotes in twitch chat
...I still use feelsbadman but I guess only in private discourse with my husband because I understand that it has all these cultural implications now
i think some stuff manages to wriggle free of a troubled past. Like no one thinks 'Hitler' when they see a VW Bug even tho Hitler commissioned it or whatever
(Oh god when I tried to look that up I wound up on a pro-Hitler propaganda site. Sorry, I mean a site that's "non-biased" about Hitler. Eep.)
0
Options
DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
There are things that sadden me greatly about the appropriation of the greater part of my culture. I do say mine because natives have kept, for a good part, their culture after all of the force against them to not do so. The laws against speaking our language against practicing our religion. It is a right earned from the blood of my ancestors. What saddens me though is that due to the combined effort to hide the past in schooling and even college, the entitlement culture we have, etc my culture has boiled down to fashion shows and desert parties and sports teams with sketchy chants or mascots.
In the end kill the indian save the man is going to work. And it makes me sad.
I OWN TOO MANY THINGS AND MY LIFE AND MIND ARE AS CLUTTERED AS MY ROOM
ｍｅｄｉｔａｔｅ．
okay but that won't declutter my room and possessions
Have you read that decluttering book? By the Japanese author
Yes my suggestion is buy yet another thing to help you manage your things
Mari Kondo/Konmari method
I have not read it but some key takeaways include getting rid of stuff that doesn't actively enhance your life
In general, decluttering is extremely daunting and I certainly am having problems doing so; generally I have the best results when tackling a specific small problem, either one small category (clothes in my closet I have not worn for a year) or one specific small geographic area (this half of the living room)
Steam, LoL: credeiki
0
Options
Captain Ultralow resolution pictures of birdsRegistered Userregular
The best part of New Orleans is uptown; grabbing a gallon of frozen daq from a to-go spot then watching the mississippi from the levee
My fiancee and I have been talking about doing Pack Up and Go, I hope they send us to New Orleans.
What's that?
It's a company that does surprise vacations. You set a budget and tell them what dates you want to go, you fill out a questionnaire, and then they send you a sealed envelope and an instruction like "Be at LaGuardia Terminal 32 at 5pm". The morning of, you open up the envelope, and it says where you're going, plus your travel and hotel details, and a curated list of things to do based off of what you said you liked in your questionnaire.
I think it could be a lot of fun if it's done well, and judging by the reviews it sounds like it's done well.
I was joking about saying I hope they send us to New Orleans, since hoping for a specific place is the opposite of what they're going for.
+2
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Ironically, shemaghs have become really popular with grunting, shitheaded dudebros, racist dickbags, and Trump supporters
not out of solidarity with middle eastern cultures or anything, but because they see bearded sleeveless spec-for operator guys that they idolize wearing them. There's a specific look that has come to typify the American soldier in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflict (and all the fucked up stuff that goes along with that) and it's basically this guy:
See that shemagh he's wearing around his neck? Yeah, a lot of American and other allied soldiers started wearing those in Iraq and Afghanistan for a variety of different reasons (they're practical, for one thing) and because these ding dongs see these totally bad ass dudes wearing them, they want to wear them too. Totally ignoring the cultural context of why, or the original culture they came from, or whatever.
In one of those shitty DayZ clone games that my brother plays, the shemagh is just called an "Operator Scarf". Y'know, it's just that cool scarf that operator dudes wear!
lordie...
the people wearing them as a political statement don't really have much to do with the original culture they came from either, I suppose. Mainly because there isn't a the original culture with them being so widespread back into the region's prehistory.
Also yeah I guess shemagh is the more common term for it if it's via the military vector.
Also every few months or so I try to solve my husband's disorganized clothes problems and fold his tshirts in the konmari way where they are on their sides and show him how to do it and point out how the drawer is much better because it fits more things and he can see all his shirts at once
and then a few months later all the tshirts are no longer folded that way and are in messy stacks again >:[
Steam, LoL: credeiki
0
Options
Blameless Cleric An angel made of sapphires each more flawlessly cut than the last Registered Userregular
edited August 2017
ARE pancakes a cake??
When I make pancakes they have no sugar in them and I don't eat them with syrup really
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
Appropriate away. I'm kind of down with cultural appropriation, it is often how we get new and interesting takes on things. It's also how we got modern BBQ.
You can have cultural exchange without being appropriative; the issue isn't that modern BBQ exists, but that presumably the originating culture hasn't received just compense for their contribution to the greater BBQ zeitgeist.
what would just compense entail?
EDIT: like, wide recognition of the history, or something else?
That, and full social, political, and economic justice.
I OWN TOO MANY THINGS AND MY LIFE AND MIND ARE AS CLUTTERED AS MY ROOM
ｍｅｄｉｔａｔｅ．
okay but that won't declutter my room and possessions
Clutter is one thing i still struggle with as a lot of my hobbies naturally produce it (books, records, warhammer). I've gotten used to the idea of pawning things once they cease to have function for me beyond clutter. To that end, these have been my rules:
Records: Anything I haven't listened to in a year gets sold, no questions asked:
Books: Years ago I purged anything I owned that:
-I read, but would never revisit (or could get from the library if I wanted to)
-Haven't read but owned for years
Now I don't buy books unless I can't get them from the library. Still need to do a purge again though.
Warhammer: My collection fluctuates a lot but I have no problem dumping models if I am not interested in building or painting them
it's fun to tie them around your head, though. You undeniably look cool, if you can stand morons going "are you dressed as a terrorist"
also it's a loose, light fabric intended for wrapping around heads and faces which meant they worked very well in northern norway because covering the face is not an easy use case for clothing
0
Options
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Subject-@Apothe0sis will invent fiction it believes the interrogator desires. Data acquired will be invalid. Warned @Apothe0sis (0 points for 1 week) for "Kicked from thread: Not welcome"
My job is basically arguing about why taking this little thing and making it a tiny bit better is innovation sufficient for patent protection.
So whenever I approach the "is cultural appropriate bad or good" argument, I can't really justify saying that taking a piece of a culture not your own and tweaking it a bit isn't okay.
Posts
false
the best part is the garden district
This is why it always boils down to the histories for me.
Like as a part of general knowledge I don't expect every dumbass to know the cultural roots of dance music. However if someone is documenting the histories then it should be noted where dance music originated, and the contextual social pressures and environments that birthed the genre. If an art history major is looking into dance music they should learn that its roots are set in the gay community.
This Silvagunner erasure
shivahn
Become the babushka
My fiancee and I have been talking about doing Pack Up and Go, I hope they send us to New Orleans.
Let's be honest nothing of value was lost
I'm of a similar mindset; the contrapoints video and Pony's Lindsey Ellis talk about the idea that cultural appropriation can be neutral and a lot of times the issue is the execution or the fact that it's just outright racist like wahoo.
Of course this is a contentious thing because obviously that doesn't mesh with e.g. tilder's implied definition that appropriation is a negative example of cultural exchange, which I'd imagine Ellis would respond with "it's not exchange if the dominant culture is just taking something and putting it in respectfully" so now we're at a terminology crossroads where both groups are gesturing at how certain acts are insensitive and one is arguing that's what defined-as-bad appropriation is and the other is arguing that's why defined-neutrally appropriation can turn out shitty
Huh, I never ran into this. People with keffiyehs I know are the following:
1)Middle Eastern
2)Studied/lived in the Middle East
3)Do a lot of desert hiking because they are super useful
Never really been tied to a political statement in my mind outside you probably are interested, worked, or studied the Middle East at some point.
What's that?
hence the military thing: they use them because... well, they're worn all over the middle east for a practical reason
(Oh god when I tried to look that up I wound up on a pro-Hitler propaganda site. Sorry, I mean a site that's "non-biased" about Hitler. Eep.)
okay but that won't declutter my room and possessions
@Donkey Kong what do you have to say for yourself you enabling bastard
yeah.....
Have you read that decluttering book? By the Japanese author
Yes my suggestion is buy yet another thing to help you manage your things
not out of solidarity with middle eastern cultures or anything, but because they see bearded sleeveless spec-for operator guys that they idolize wearing them. There's a specific look that has come to typify the American soldier in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflict (and all the fucked up stuff that goes along with that) and it's basically this guy:
See that shemagh he's wearing around his neck? Yeah, a lot of American and other allied soldiers started wearing those in Iraq and Afghanistan for a variety of different reasons (they're practical, for one thing) and because these ding dongs see these totally bad ass dudes wearing them, they want to wear them too. Totally ignoring the cultural context of why, or the original culture they came from, or whatever.
In one of those shitty DayZ clone games that my brother plays, the shemagh is just called an "Operator Scarf". Y'know, it's just that cool scarf that operator dudes wear!
lordie...
https://twitter.com/loneblockbuster
Also
Fried cake under liquid sugar
Checkmate Athiests
In the end kill the indian save the man is going to work. And it makes me sad.
Mari Kondo/Konmari method
I have not read it but some key takeaways include getting rid of stuff that doesn't actively enhance your life
In general, decluttering is extremely daunting and I certainly am having problems doing so; generally I have the best results when tackling a specific small problem, either one small category (clothes in my closet I have not worn for a year) or one specific small geographic area (this half of the living room)
It's a company that does surprise vacations. You set a budget and tell them what dates you want to go, you fill out a questionnaire, and then they send you a sealed envelope and an instruction like "Be at LaGuardia Terminal 32 at 5pm". The morning of, you open up the envelope, and it says where you're going, plus your travel and hotel details, and a curated list of things to do based off of what you said you liked in your questionnaire.
I think it could be a lot of fun if it's done well, and judging by the reviews it sounds like it's done well.
I was joking about saying I hope they send us to New Orleans, since hoping for a specific place is the opposite of what they're going for.
I have the immune system of 13 years in an ER
I can shake off the Black Plague with two ibuprofen and a bottle of Gatorade
the people wearing them as a political statement don't really have much to do with the original culture they came from either, I suppose. Mainly because there isn't a the original culture with them being so widespread back into the region's prehistory.
Also yeah I guess shemagh is the more common term for it if it's via the military vector.
and then a few months later all the tshirts are no longer folded that way and are in messy stacks again >:[
When I make pancakes they have no sugar in them and I don't eat them with syrup really
they are more just fried bread
I'd love it if you took a look at my art and my PATREON!
That, and full social, political, and economic justice.
love each other you garbage children
Clutter is one thing i still struggle with as a lot of my hobbies naturally produce it (books, records, warhammer). I've gotten used to the idea of pawning things once they cease to have function for me beyond clutter. To that end, these have been my rules:
Records: Anything I haven't listened to in a year gets sold, no questions asked:
Books: Years ago I purged anything I owned that:
-I read, but would never revisit (or could get from the library if I wanted to)
-Haven't read but owned for years
Now I don't buy books unless I can't get them from the library. Still need to do a purge again though.
Warhammer: My collection fluctuates a lot but I have no problem dumping models if I am not interested in building or painting them
i've been trying, she keeps crashing to BIOS
also it's a loose, light fabric intended for wrapping around heads and faces which meant they worked very well in northern norway because covering the face is not an easy use case for clothing
everything's a cake if you believe in your heart
Warned @Apothe0sis (0 points for 1 week) for "Kicked from thread: Not welcome"
I assume this is titled "heard you were talking shit"
So whenever I approach the "is cultural appropriate bad or good" argument, I can't really justify saying that taking a piece of a culture not your own and tweaking it a bit isn't okay.
This is a fascist regime.