I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
How do you intend to wear the keffiyeh and what do you expect it to signify? I feel like often people use it to signal a political position on the middle east.
However I feel like at the time. I'm not buying the one with the political pattern, obviously(?). It isn't intended to signal a position, really, it's mostly wanting a more versatile scarf and liking some of the patterns that the Hirbawi factory puts out.
(Also, I got one years ago for camping, because it keeps dust out of my face and eyes, and I feel guilty about buying a mass produced Chinese one in retrospect, so it's sort of an atonement for that)
hmmm wait maybe I actually don't know what a keffiyeh is
not that black and white thing often seen here as a neckscarf? Is it just sort of a generic scarf?
????
Right, so this was part of my confusion
You see a lot of stuff about keffiyehs as symbols of palestinian solidarity, and cultural icons (and appropriation being involved). But the more I dig into it, the more it seems like keffiyehs are... ~120cm square cotton scarves that are worn all over the middle east (because obviously they are, they're useful!) that are not easily distinguished from other square scarves, except that Yassir Arafat always wore a keffiyeh in a very specific pattern that has consequently become the symbol of solidarity (or of terrorist sympathization, if you're super extreme. I've seen many things argued!).
So it's this weird space where "keffiyeh" is generally a sort of generic scarf that tends to have certain historical patterns, but it also has this specific type that has specific meaning, and then you get this sort of gray area where people use other ones in a similar manner and it's all ???
Will Pepe be in the history books of the future in the same way that fascist propoaganda of the teens, 20s and thirties are today?
I follow a bunch of tattoo artists on social media and one of the ones I follow is working with a client on a cover-up for a tattoo he got several years ago
of a Pepe
It was a more innocent time! When a Pepe tattoo was simply just a very rare Pepe and not literally a symbol of fascism, so naturally the guy wants that shit covered up as he now accidentally has a twenty-first century swastika tattoo.
As much as I get low key genuinely depressed and angry about the extent to which the internet has been turned into s fucking store, I think things like the erasure of whole communities from the art historical record of genres is the sort of thing the internet is very good at pushing back against.
Not just in real time but old photos demonstrating, like, "well actually a bunch of queer kids / whoever were instrumental in making this thing that Europeans later imported and re-sold back to Americans" can be rescued from the bottom of a shoebox, scanned, uploaded, and get propagated out rapidly.
Americans are incredibly touchy about the idea of elitism so there's this bizarre yet constant demand for trivialized novelties to be sold for viewing to people with no skin in the game. I don't know a smiley face way to say that -- people want a cleaned up version of something that needs to be tended inside of a cultural greenhouse by a minimum critical mass of people who are invested, but when you rip the art out of that environment, the yahoos and looky-loos either scoff at what they know is as flimsy a cash grab as everything else they've bought or they turn it into a Disney Vegas shitshow for three years and declare it passé.
I want the historical record to show the people who actually tended to the living thing so that the next generation of people ready to break ranks with the passive audience and start giving a shit will be buoyed by the trail that they realize stretches backward behind for lifetimes.
This is probably one of the biggest positive influences of the internet: reclamation projects. I'm afraid we are starting to slide back towards a more centralized cultural experience as the internet matures, but lots of good work has been done to show that all of this great art is connected to the material circumstances of people who care deeply about, not only being creative, but fostering a space for themselves and others like them (even if the culture at large was indifferent or hostile at the time).
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
Appropriate away. I'm kind of down with cultural appropriation, it is often how we get new and interesting takes on things. It's also how we got modern BBQ.
You can have cultural exchange without being appropriative; the issue isn't that modern BBQ exists, but that presumably the originating culture hasn't received just compense for their contribution to the greater BBQ zeitgeist.
...I mean we did appropriate it from slaves without rights...
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
The thing with pepe though is that I still see people who are not alt right using the words feelsbadman (which is a pepe reference) and using monkaS and other such emotes in twitch chat
...I still use feelsbadman but I guess only in private discourse with my husband because I understand that it has all these cultural implications now
Steam, LoL: credeiki
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
even i cannot understand how this passes as a breakfast
are you at cafe du monde
no, that's a picture someone else on the interwebs took.
i havent been to Louisiana in a while
Bless your heart.
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cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
edited August 2017
Saw this posted today by a buddy of mine. This very much reminded me of my conversations about the need for god with @spool32 . Hit pretty much right on the money on a lot of my base belief system.
This is a little spoilery for Rick and Morty if you haven't seen it. And if you haven't seen Rick and Morty, you should.
The ROI on buying contacts (based on what I paid for astigmatic lenses and what I paid for LASIK) is like 16 years, though. I guess sooner if you factor in contact solution, but it's entirely possible that I'll need glasses again by then. If you factor in a pair of glasses every 2-3 years, that figure only drops to 14 years.
It's a convenience thing, not an investment.
Glasses every couple years for me was 4-500, LASIK all told was 3k?
Its a convenience thing, but i don't agree that the economics of it are as dismal as you're making out
I guess I paid more for LASIK and way less for glasses than you.
That's still a 12-year ROI, though, right?
$500/2 years = $250/year
$3000 / $250 = 12
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simonwolfi can feel a differencetoday, a differenceRegistered Userregular
Man that just sorta reminds me of how when I was in middle school I listened to lots of electronic stuff.
Trance, D&B, Jungle, Industrial whatever you call stuff like Aphex Twin and Peaches and Lords of Acid.
But that was weird back then. People would make fun of that stuff.
Now electronic stuff is the most popular stuff.
It's always so weird how that works. The same stuff that was made fun of is now popular and listened to by those that made fun of it before.
It must be really lamentable, to be a queer poc and have your culture invaded by the same dudebros that said culture originally arose to provide refuge from
This is actually a really good case study in cultural appropriation. That people are forgetting its ties the gay community is the reason it's a problem (not that more people are making and enjoying the music).
Why is that a problem?
It's a problem because it's another way that a marginalized group has their contributions to art and culture denied.
It's a problem because it's another way that a historically othered group continues to be othered.
It's a problem because it's another way the dominant group asserts its cultural hegemony.
What do you mean? Denied how?
How does that relate?
Again, explain.
how many times have we had this argument
do you really think there's some three-line post that will answer your questions, or is this a skoofum style "what i mean by i don't understand is that i don't agree" way of sliding into an argumentative lecture
Man that just sorta reminds me of how when I was in middle school I listened to lots of electronic stuff.
Trance, D&B, Jungle, Industrial whatever you call stuff like Aphex Twin and Peaches and Lords of Acid.
But that was weird back then. People would make fun of that stuff.
Now electronic stuff is the most popular stuff.
It's always so weird how that works. The same stuff that was made fun of is now popular and listened to by those that made fun of it before.
It must be really lamentable, to be a queer poc and have your culture invaded by the same dudebros that said culture originally arose to provide refuge from
This is actually a really good case study in cultural appropriation. That people are forgetting its ties the gay community is the reason it's a problem (not that more people are making and enjoying the music).
Why is that a problem?
It's a problem because it's another way that a marginalized group has their contributions to art and culture denied.
It's a problem because it's another way that a historically othered group continues to be othered.
It's a problem because it's another way the dominant group asserts its cultural hegemony.
What do you mean? Denied how?
How does that relate?
Again, explain.
I'm going to be honest, I'm having a real hard time wanting to engage you on this topic due to past interactions. Literally all of these questions have been answered in previous posts on the subject.
I guess there's little that upsets people as much as difficulty articulating their own beliefs, as I said, my questions were in earnest
While you're always pretty civil about it, often moreso than your interlocutors, when you know someone means "that's bullshit" by asking you Socratic questions, it's irritating and can come off as hostile/disingenuous. For this question what you're basically asking is "engage in an extended discussion about identity politics, cultural appropriation, and the various interpenetrative issues with empirical data vs introspection vs unstudied problems vs the lack of credibility of marginalized groups"
That's a big ask! I know that the alternative is to have people bounce their ideas around the echo chamber, and certainly people ARE vexed by how hard it is to articulate the ideas they easily allude to, but that's not the whole issue. To be repeatedly asked to justify one's entire set of beliefs every time the issue comes up is exhausting.
This is why we should make a thread about it when repeated discussions like this come up in chat, IMO, though I know I am as guilty as anyone else of not doing so.
Thank you for the acknowledgement of relative civility, it is something toward which I actively and obviously imperfectly work toward. I acknowledge that Socratic questioning can be obvious and aggressive, but as I say, I was not in this instance being anything but earnest.
My thoroughgoing position is probably obvious enough for now - that we ought be able to explain the details of why we think something as a general principle. And the other commonality is that most of the arguments we have is due to disagreements at some more fundamental level - not talking about that actual disagreement is essentially talking past one another or duelling assertions (which is convincing to no one and it occurrence is often apparent to neither party).
But regarding your conclusion, I agree we ought have more threads to discuss issues in depth, but there are also zero threads of substance these days and given how anything that courts controversy is quickly closed I thought they were more or less discouraged. But that is probably misreading the climate
Mod controls on contentious threads are tight, and they will often end up closed because some idiot sparks an argument with a harsher tone, or a dogpile starts and one person just gets frustrated and starts lashing out. I think that has definitely had a chilling effect on non-political threads of substance--a combination of forumers not wanting to recycle nasty discussions and mods not wanting to spend inordinate amounts of time watching twenty intense threads about vegetarian abortion atheists or whatever.
I am always tentative about making threads because, if you get engaged, they can suck up more time than the forums already do, though that can be productive, interesting time depending on the responses you get.
As much as I get low key genuinely depressed and angry about the extent to which the internet has been turned into s fucking store, I think things like the erasure of whole communities from the art historical record of genres is the sort of thing the internet is very good at pushing back against.
Not just in real time but old photos demonstrating, like, "well actually a bunch of queer kids / whoever were instrumental in making this thing that Europeans later imported and re-sold back to Americans" can be rescued from the bottom of a shoebox, scanned, uploaded, and get propagated out rapidly.
Americans are incredibly touchy about the idea of elitism so there's this bizarre yet constant demand for trivialized novelties to be sold for viewing to people with no skin in the game. I don't know a smiley face way to say that -- people want a cleaned up version of something that needs to be tended inside of a cultural greenhouse by a minimum critical mass of people who are invested, but when you rip the art out of that environment, the yahoos and looky-loos either scoff at what they know is as flimsy a cash grab as everything else they've bought or they turn it into a Disney Vegas shitshow for three years and declare it passé.
I want the historical record to show the people who actually tended to the living thing so that the next generation of people ready to break ranks with the passive audience and start giving a shit will be buoyed by the trail that they realize stretches backward behind for lifetimes.
This is probably one of the biggest positive influences of the internet: reclamation projects. I'm afraid we are starting to slide back towards a more centralized cultural experience as the internet matures, but lots of good work has been done to show that all of this great art is connected to the material circumstances of people who care deeply about, not only being creative, but fostering a space for themselves and others like them (even if the culture at large was indifferent or hostile at the time).
Don't worry I brought two balaclavas let's go do not bring recording devices
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
How do you intend to wear the keffiyeh and what do you expect it to signify? I feel like often people use it to signal a political position on the middle east.
However I feel like at the time. I'm not buying the one with the political pattern, obviously(?). It isn't intended to signal a position, really, it's mostly wanting a more versatile scarf and liking some of the patterns that the Hirbawi factory puts out.
(Also, I got one years ago for camping, because it keeps dust out of my face and eyes, and I feel guilty about buying a mass produced Chinese one in retrospect, so it's sort of an atonement for that)
hmmm wait maybe I actually don't know what a keffiyeh is
not that black and white thing often seen here as a neckscarf? Is it just sort of a generic scarf?
????
Right, so this was part of my confusion
You see a lot of stuff about keffiyehs as symbols of palestinian solidarity, and cultural icons (and appropriation being involved). But the more I dig into it, the more it seems like keffiyehs are... ~120cm square cotton scarves that are worn all over the middle east (because obviously they are, they're useful!) that are not easily distinguished from other square scarves, except that Yassir Arafat always wore a keffiyeh in a very specific pattern that has consequently become the symbol of solidarity (or of terrorist sympathization, if you're super extreme. I've seen many things argued!).
So it's this weird space where "keffiyeh" is generally a sort of generic scarf that tends to have certain historical patterns, but it also has this specific type that has specific meaning, and then you get this sort of gray area where people use other ones in a similar manner and it's all ???
oh interesting
well I have decided you should get some of these fantastically Russian-patterned floral headscarves if possible; I think you could make it work with the whole long skirt look
I've yet to see any argument for cultural appropriation being bad that was consistent
my conclusion has been that the cultural appropriation itself is totally subsidiary to the thing that is actually a problem.
summed quickly up as: it cannot be argued that cultural appropriation is negative in and of itself. When talked about here it seems usually to be that the thing that makes it bad in a specific case is if it involves marginalizing. Way I see it, that's the appropriate thing to call attention to: the marginalizing effect, or disrespect or offence, et cetera.
Because I am vehemently against the concept of "my culture is not theirs to steal" being a thing. To me it sounds like the basic underlying idea of anti-integration and anti-multiculturalism. Which is what I mean about inconsitency: It's only a problem when it is problematic, ie, for another reason than that idea.
to sum it up even quicker: why is the white man red is not problematic because white americans are not allowed to touch native american culture, it's because it's an insult wrapped in caricature.
I am not doing super great right now actually, I have had some Personal Revelations that make it very difficult for me to sleep so I've caught about five hours in two days, and it was not a good five hours. Also there's... stuff about a colleague at one of my jobs I can't talk about that is very stressful.
BUT after I mentioned that maybe it was time for me to move past bad webcomics, Donkey Kong sent me some primo shit, so now I have that joy again
Man that just sorta reminds me of how when I was in middle school I listened to lots of electronic stuff.
Trance, D&B, Jungle, Industrial whatever you call stuff like Aphex Twin and Peaches and Lords of Acid.
But that was weird back then. People would make fun of that stuff.
Now electronic stuff is the most popular stuff.
It's always so weird how that works. The same stuff that was made fun of is now popular and listened to by those that made fun of it before.
It must be really lamentable, to be a queer poc and have your culture invaded by the same dudebros that said culture originally arose to provide refuge from
This is actually a really good case study in cultural appropriation. That people are forgetting its ties the gay community is the reason it's a problem (not that more people are making and enjoying the music).
Why is that a problem?
It's a problem because it's another way that a marginalized group has their contributions to art and culture denied.
It's a problem because it's another way that a historically othered group continues to be othered.
It's a problem because it's another way the dominant group asserts its cultural hegemony.
What do you mean? Denied how?
How does that relate?
Again, explain.
how many times have we had this argument
do you really think there's some three-line post that will answer your questions, or is this a skoofum style "what i mean by i don't understand is that i don't agree" way of sliding into an argumentative lecture
Man that just sorta reminds me of how when I was in middle school I listened to lots of electronic stuff.
Trance, D&B, Jungle, Industrial whatever you call stuff like Aphex Twin and Peaches and Lords of Acid.
But that was weird back then. People would make fun of that stuff.
Now electronic stuff is the most popular stuff.
It's always so weird how that works. The same stuff that was made fun of is now popular and listened to by those that made fun of it before.
It must be really lamentable, to be a queer poc and have your culture invaded by the same dudebros that said culture originally arose to provide refuge from
This is actually a really good case study in cultural appropriation. That people are forgetting its ties the gay community is the reason it's a problem (not that more people are making and enjoying the music).
Why is that a problem?
It's a problem because it's another way that a marginalized group has their contributions to art and culture denied.
It's a problem because it's another way that a historically othered group continues to be othered.
It's a problem because it's another way the dominant group asserts its cultural hegemony.
What do you mean? Denied how?
How does that relate?
Again, explain.
I'm going to be honest, I'm having a real hard time wanting to engage you on this topic due to past interactions. Literally all of these questions have been answered in previous posts on the subject.
I guess there's little that upsets people as much as difficulty articulating their own beliefs, as I said, my questions were in earnest
While you're always pretty civil about it, often moreso than your interlocutors, when you know someone means "that's bullshit" by asking you Socratic questions, it's irritating and can come off as hostile/disingenuous. For this question what you're basically asking is "engage in an extended discussion about identity politics, cultural appropriation, and the various interpenetrative issues with empirical data vs introspection vs unstudied problems vs the lack of credibility of marginalized groups"
That's a big ask! I know that the alternative is to have people bounce their ideas around the echo chamber, and certainly people ARE vexed by how hard it is to articulate the ideas they easily allude to, but that's not the whole issue. To be repeatedly asked to justify one's entire set of beliefs every time the issue comes up is exhausting.
This is why we should make a thread about it when repeated discussions like this come up in chat, IMO, though I know I am as guilty as anyone else of not doing so.
Thank you for the acknowledgement of relative civility, it is something toward which I actively and obviously imperfectly work toward. I acknowledge that Socratic questioning can be obvious and aggressive, but as I say, I was not in this instance being anything but earnest.
My thoroughgoing position is probably obvious enough for now - that we ought be able to explain the details of why we think something as a general principle. And the other commonality is that most of the arguments we have is due to disagreements at some more fundamental level - not talking about that actual disagreement is essentially talking past one another or duelling assertions (which is convincing to no one and it occurrence is often apparent to neither party).
But regarding your conclusion, I agree we ought have more threads to discuss issues in depth, but there are also zero threads of substance these days and given how anything that courts controversy is quickly closed I thought they were more or less discouraged. But that is probably misreading the climate
The bolded seems really obviously untrue, though? Both from a "how brains work" perspective of remembering information fuzzily but not knowing sources, and because it tends to weight very heavily against any discussion that involves emotion or "justness" even though those are huge drivers of why things are felt but super hard to explain.
I ate an engineer
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Man that just sorta reminds me of how when I was in middle school I listened to lots of electronic stuff.
Trance, D&B, Jungle, Industrial whatever you call stuff like Aphex Twin and Peaches and Lords of Acid.
But that was weird back then. People would make fun of that stuff.
Now electronic stuff is the most popular stuff.
It's always so weird how that works. The same stuff that was made fun of is now popular and listened to by those that made fun of it before.
It must be really lamentable, to be a queer poc and have your culture invaded by the same dudebros that said culture originally arose to provide refuge from
This is actually a really good case study in cultural appropriation. That people are forgetting its ties the gay community is the reason it's a problem (not that more people are making and enjoying the music).
Why is that a problem?
It's a problem because it's another way that a marginalized group has their contributions to art and culture denied.
It's a problem because it's another way that a historically othered group continues to be othered.
It's a problem because it's another way the dominant group asserts its cultural hegemony.
What do you mean? Denied how?
How does that relate?
Again, explain.
how many times have we had this argument
do you really think there's some three-line post that will answer your questions, or is this a skoofum style "what i mean by i don't understand is that i don't agree" way of sliding into an argumentative lecture
Man that just sorta reminds me of how when I was in middle school I listened to lots of electronic stuff.
Trance, D&B, Jungle, Industrial whatever you call stuff like Aphex Twin and Peaches and Lords of Acid.
But that was weird back then. People would make fun of that stuff.
Now electronic stuff is the most popular stuff.
It's always so weird how that works. The same stuff that was made fun of is now popular and listened to by those that made fun of it before.
It must be really lamentable, to be a queer poc and have your culture invaded by the same dudebros that said culture originally arose to provide refuge from
This is actually a really good case study in cultural appropriation. That people are forgetting its ties the gay community is the reason it's a problem (not that more people are making and enjoying the music).
Why is that a problem?
It's a problem because it's another way that a marginalized group has their contributions to art and culture denied.
It's a problem because it's another way that a historically othered group continues to be othered.
It's a problem because it's another way the dominant group asserts its cultural hegemony.
What do you mean? Denied how?
How does that relate?
Again, explain.
I'm going to be honest, I'm having a real hard time wanting to engage you on this topic due to past interactions. Literally all of these questions have been answered in previous posts on the subject.
I guess there's little that upsets people as much as difficulty articulating their own beliefs, as I said, my questions were in earnest
Oh no, no. I'm gonna skip the point about people being able to articulate their beliefs, it's a debate forum and plenty of people can do it and some can't, but that's irrelevant. That's not what the chat threads is for, at all. No one is here to be tested on their beliefs and they're not expected to be subjected to a question and answer session to the satisfaction of anyone else. You can articulate your thoughts if you want, but no one else is required to play along with any line of discussion they wish no part of. This is a hangout spot, not the comments section of an econ blog.
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
How do you intend to wear the keffiyeh and what do you expect it to signify? I feel like often people use it to signal a political position on the middle east.
However I feel like at the time. I'm not buying the one with the political pattern, obviously(?). It isn't intended to signal a position, really, it's mostly wanting a more versatile scarf and liking some of the patterns that the Hirbawi factory puts out.
(Also, I got one years ago for camping, because it keeps dust out of my face and eyes, and I feel guilty about buying a mass produced Chinese one in retrospect, so it's sort of an atonement for that)
hmmm wait maybe I actually don't know what a keffiyeh is
not that black and white thing often seen here as a neckscarf? Is it just sort of a generic scarf?
????
Right, so this was part of my confusion
You see a lot of stuff about keffiyehs as symbols of palestinian solidarity, and cultural icons (and appropriation being involved). But the more I dig into it, the more it seems like keffiyehs are... ~120cm square cotton scarves that are worn all over the middle east (because obviously they are, they're useful!) that are not easily distinguished from other square scarves, except that Yassir Arafat always wore a keffiyeh in a very specific pattern that has consequently become the symbol of solidarity (or of terrorist sympathization, if you're super extreme. I've seen many things argued!).
So it's this weird space where "keffiyeh" is generally a sort of generic scarf that tends to have certain historical patterns, but it also has this specific type that has specific meaning, and then you get this sort of gray area where people use other ones in a similar manner and it's all ???
oh interesting
well I have decided you should get some of these fantastically Russian-patterned floral headscarves if possible; I think you could make it work with the whole long skirt look
I mean the one you linked would go kind of amazingly with that sort of quilted black-and-autumn skirt I love
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
Appropriate away. I'm kind of down with cultural appropriation, it is often how we get new and interesting takes on things. It's also how we got modern BBQ.
You can have cultural exchange without being appropriative; the issue isn't that modern BBQ exists, but that presumably the originating culture hasn't received just compense for their contribution to the greater BBQ zeitgeist.
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
How do you intend to wear the keffiyeh and what do you expect it to signify? I feel like often people use it to signal a political position on the middle east.
I have one that I got through basically the only channel that means you can vote something that's not deeply red, since I got mine in the army because it's a useful thing
Right, and I do not know what's up with it internationally or even all over the US, but in my circles it's something that you'd wear if you were, like, a jew who is super into palestine? Or presumably a non-jew who is super into palestine, I suppose. And it definitely has that political signalling whether or not you want that.
I also haven't seen one in forever so maybe they're passe.
here it's part of the standard uniform of left-wing youth (raddiser, as a diminutive of radikale) and definitely signals support for palestine and criticism of israel.
or
you were in the army because keffiyehs have been adopted by soldiers in all of NATO now because, y'know, there's been a lot of fighting in arid climes.
as a secondary point, army types are p much the only ones who will call them keffiyehs. They're just palestina-scarves elsewhere.
I will say, I think Apo keeps asking because the responses to his questions have been confused, incoherent, inconsistent, and unsatisfying, specifically in this area.
I have seen many discussions on this point and never grasped the argument of the side I myself tend to be politically aligned with.
What happens is the discussion starts, and work or time zones intervene, and it is not satisfactorily concluded
I think there is probably a nugget of thought on cultural appropriation that I agree with wholeheartedly, but I think there is a lot that I probably am not willing to align with (I've mentioned recently that I've been thinking of buying some keffiyehs, and have as a result fallen down a weird hole of this stuff that has mostly left me confused).
Appropriate away. I'm kind of down with cultural appropriation, it is often how we get new and interesting takes on things. It's also how we got modern BBQ.
You can have cultural exchange without being appropriative; the issue isn't that modern BBQ exists, but that presumably the originating culture hasn't received just compense for their contribution to the greater BBQ zeitgeist.
what would just compense entail?
EDIT: like, wide recognition of the history, or something else?
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they had a really good daiquiri place here. small mom and pop one by the riverfront but the city wouldnt renew the lease because they were turning the area into a park.
there's a new one down the road from it but its a big chain place and it just doesnt have that ambience
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Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I'm glad that you and JRX got the reference
dessert being breakfast was inevitable ever since the Dutch invented donuts and Belgians invented waffles
Right, so this was part of my confusion
You see a lot of stuff about keffiyehs as symbols of palestinian solidarity, and cultural icons (and appropriation being involved). But the more I dig into it, the more it seems like keffiyehs are... ~120cm square cotton scarves that are worn all over the middle east (because obviously they are, they're useful!) that are not easily distinguished from other square scarves, except that Yassir Arafat always wore a keffiyeh in a very specific pattern that has consequently become the symbol of solidarity (or of terrorist sympathization, if you're super extreme. I've seen many things argued!).
So it's this weird space where "keffiyeh" is generally a sort of generic scarf that tends to have certain historical patterns, but it also has this specific type that has specific meaning, and then you get this sort of gray area where people use other ones in a similar manner and it's all ???
I follow a bunch of tattoo artists on social media and one of the ones I follow is working with a client on a cover-up for a tattoo he got several years ago
of a Pepe
It was a more innocent time! When a Pepe tattoo was simply just a very rare Pepe and not literally a symbol of fascism, so naturally the guy wants that shit covered up as he now accidentally has a twenty-first century swastika tattoo.
They're gonna figure something out.
...I still use feelsbadman but I guess only in private discourse with my husband because I understand that it has all these cultural implications now
no, that's a picture someone else on the interwebs took.
i havent been to Louisiana in a while
This is a little spoilery for Rick and Morty if you haven't seen it. And if you haven't seen Rick and Morty, you should.
I guess I paid more for LASIK and way less for glasses than you.
That's still a 12-year ROI, though, right?
$500/2 years = $250/year
$3000 / $250 = 12
why hello
Mod controls on contentious threads are tight, and they will often end up closed because some idiot sparks an argument with a harsher tone, or a dogpile starts and one person just gets frustrated and starts lashing out. I think that has definitely had a chilling effect on non-political threads of substance--a combination of forumers not wanting to recycle nasty discussions and mods not wanting to spend inordinate amounts of time watching twenty intense threads about vegetarian abortion atheists or whatever.
I am always tentative about making threads because, if you get engaged, they can suck up more time than the forums already do, though that can be productive, interesting time depending on the responses you get.
It really encapsulates the whole cultural appropriation discussion nicely!
Don't worry I brought two balaclavas let's go do not bring recording devices
just ride the draft wave
what makes a draft unworthy of posting anyway
is it not a moment that makes up the you that is YOU
that one is so cut and dry ugh
oh interesting
well I have decided you should get some of these fantastically Russian-patterned floral headscarves if possible; I think you could make it work with the whole long skirt look
my conclusion has been that the cultural appropriation itself is totally subsidiary to the thing that is actually a problem.
summed quickly up as: it cannot be argued that cultural appropriation is negative in and of itself. When talked about here it seems usually to be that the thing that makes it bad in a specific case is if it involves marginalizing. Way I see it, that's the appropriate thing to call attention to: the marginalizing effect, or disrespect or offence, et cetera.
Because I am vehemently against the concept of "my culture is not theirs to steal" being a thing. To me it sounds like the basic underlying idea of anti-integration and anti-multiculturalism. Which is what I mean about inconsitency: It's only a problem when it is problematic, ie, for another reason than that idea.
to sum it up even quicker: why is the white man red is not problematic because white americans are not allowed to touch native american culture, it's because it's an insult wrapped in caricature.
BUT after I mentioned that maybe it was time for me to move past bad webcomics, Donkey Kong sent me some primo shit, so now I have that joy again
desc's drafts now own desc's account. sorry, desc - those are the rules.
The bolded seems really obviously untrue, though? Both from a "how brains work" perspective of remembering information fuzzily but not knowing sources, and because it tends to weight very heavily against any discussion that involves emotion or "justness" even though those are huge drivers of why things are felt but super hard to explain.
are they?
are they really all good sandwiches?
Oh no, no. I'm gonna skip the point about people being able to articulate their beliefs, it's a debate forum and plenty of people can do it and some can't, but that's irrelevant. That's not what the chat threads is for, at all. No one is here to be tested on their beliefs and they're not expected to be subjected to a question and answer session to the satisfaction of anyone else. You can articulate your thoughts if you want, but no one else is required to play along with any line of discussion they wish no part of. This is a hangout spot, not the comments section of an econ blog.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
They are, in fact, churros.
ITS FRIED CAKE UNDER A LITERAL PILE OF SUGAR
IM GOING TO FIGHT POSTMODERNISM
i mean, what is a pancake
I mean the one you linked would go kind of amazingly with that sort of quilted black-and-autumn skirt I love
.... Greater BBQ Zeitgeist....
*adds to list of potential band names*
here it's part of the standard uniform of left-wing youth (raddiser, as a diminutive of radikale) and definitely signals support for palestine and criticism of israel.
or
you were in the army because keffiyehs have been adopted by soldiers in all of NATO now because, y'know, there's been a lot of fighting in arid climes.
as a secondary point, army types are p much the only ones who will call them keffiyehs. They're just palestina-scarves elsewhere.
what would just compense entail?
EDIT: like, wide recognition of the history, or something else?
there's a new one down the road from it but its a big chain place and it just doesnt have that ambience