If you were God, you would KNOW, each and every single one of those universes, every event, every choice. Nothing that occurred in any of those universes would be a surprise.
And yet, free will still exists because reality and people are still being altered by the choices they make. It only "seems" inevitable from the perspective of one within that pocket universe.
What if there's a different god for each Universe?
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
Well, I didn't really care what Nick Spencer was up to a decade ago until I found out that it was believing that sex workers were trying to assassinate him. That's fucking upside-down shithouse-rat crazy. That's the kind of crazy that only a better writer than Nick Spencer could come up with.
I think the dude got a little shaken up and is just talking about 'crime' and doing a shit poor job of it.
But again, twelve years ago.
Nah. It doesn't look like any site says how old he is, but recent pics look like he's in his 40s, and common scientific research says "who you are at 30 is who you'll be", so 12 years ago isn't a real argument. Especially since what he says/writes at most just placates a liberal/leftist ideal. Dude is, at best, a centrist liberal which is a "not the worst Republican" in 2017
Regardless of what he said 12 years ago, what he said in the past year is bad enough
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
You're free to make whatever kind of statement you want about religion. And there's plenty of ways to show sympathy towards Judas. But the idea that he was FATED to betray Jesus is one I don't buy, and yeah, I can say it's pretty dumb.
If this was a story about Islam or Hinduism that fuddled with random stuff people found eyeroll worthy, it doesn't mean it's not a valuable opinion or they're "trying" to miss the point.
Predestination is largely a concept from Abrahamic religions.
This isn't someone fiddling with the narrative. Predestination was already part of the narrative for a thousand or more years.
Isnt there a sect that theorizes that Judas didnt betray Jesus at all? That essentially he needed to die there for that reason and so asked one if his most trusted friends to turn him in?
Ive heard that before. At the very least Judas not being the bad guy isnt new idea and I think this take is completely valid.
There's the Gnostics. The Gnostic Gospel of Judas states that Jesus told Judas to betray him because it was necessary for God's plan. However, it should come with the huge caveat that disagreeing with the Gnostics is a big part what led to the writing of the New Testament and the selection of the gospels in the first place.
If you were God, you would KNOW, each and every single one of those universes, every event, every choice. Nothing that occurred in any of those universes would be a surprise.
And yet, free will still exists because reality and people are still being altered by the choices they make. It only "seems" inevitable from the perspective of one within that pocket universe.
That's a significantly more modern interpretation since many religious scholars and leadership either just flat out stated that there isn't free will at all or state that it is inherently a paradox and beyond understanding.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Well, I didn't really care what Nick Spencer was up to a decade ago until I found out that it was believing that sex workers were trying to assassinate him. That's fucking upside-down shithouse-rat crazy. That's the kind of crazy that only a better writer than Nick Spencer could come up with.
I think the dude got a little shaken up and is just talking about 'crime' and doing a shit poor job of it.
But again, twelve years ago.
Nah. It doesn't look like any site says how old he is, but recent pics look like he's in his 40s, and common scientific research says "who you are at 30 is who you'll be", so 12 years ago isn't a real argument. Especially since what he says/writes at most just placates a liberal/leftist ideal. Dude is, at best, a centrist liberal which is a "not the worst Republican" in 2017
Regardless of what he said 12 years ago, what he said in the past year is bad enough
What he's said in the past year is bad enough, so hang him on that and not some old post from Bush's first term.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Well, I didn't really care what Nick Spencer was up to a decade ago until I found out that it was believing that sex workers were trying to assassinate him. That's fucking upside-down shithouse-rat crazy. That's the kind of crazy that only a better writer than Nick Spencer could come up with.
I think the dude got a little shaken up and is just talking about 'crime' and doing a shit poor job of it.
But again, twelve years ago.
Nah. It doesn't look like any site says how old he is, but recent pics look like he's in his 40s, and common scientific research says "who you are at 30 is who you'll be", so 12 years ago isn't a real argument. Especially since what he says/writes at most just placates a liberal/leftist ideal. Dude is, at best, a centrist liberal which is a "not the worst Republican" in 2017
Regardless of what he said 12 years ago, what he said in the past year is bad enough
What he's said in the past year is bad enough, so hang him on that and not some old post from Bush's first term.
the problem with relying on an unupdated holy book is that it asserts that god's a huge fan of feudalism
just, 100% way to go guys, you figured out the optimal government, no one attempt to change anything
I've got three different copies of the bible to prove that it's still being changed, just because the more religious parts of my family likes to fight me on it and I can throw all three at them to prove them wrong.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
That's a significantly more modern interpretation since many religious scholars and leadership either just flat out stated that there isn't free will at all or state that it is inherently a paradox and beyond understanding.
Gonna disagree with you there. Most religious scholars I've talked to aren't Calvinists or the like, and unless you're a very specific flavor of protestant (re: informed Baptist) then chances are you don't buy into lack of free will and at least partially reject pre-destination.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
also, fictional stories do not need to have premises that are based 100% in what really happened
the genre of alternate history exists wholly because of that for example
a story can exist in a version of the world that operates under the "god has an absolute plan and ordained actions" theory
we all know that general custer died at the battle of little bighorn. what my book presupposes is...maybe he didn't?
Rewriting John Carpenter of Mars?
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Unless you are talking about like, historical stuff? Because then yeah, there have been oodles of schisms about that very debate on the nature of choice and pre-destination.
Basically if you have any question about something in the Bible, chances are people have died for it.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
If you were God, you would KNOW, each and every single one of those universes, every event, every choice. Nothing that occurred in any of those universes would be a surprise.
And yet, free will still exists because reality and people are still being altered by the choices they make. It only "seems" inevitable from the perspective of one within that pocket universe.
Presbyterians believe in Calvanism which absolutely states that those who go to heaven are predetermined by God.
That's a significantly more modern interpretation since many religious scholars and leadership either just flat out stated that there isn't free will at all or state that it is inherently a paradox and beyond understanding.
Gonna disagree with you there. Most religious scholars I've talked to aren't Calvinists or the like, and unless you're a very specific flavor of protestant (re: informed Baptist) then chances are you don't buy into lack of free will and at least partially reject pre-destination.
I'm talking on a much longer view, hence calling the concept of free-will via multiple trajectories of time's arrow a more modern interpretation. Not just people now, but people then as well.
If you were God, you would KNOW, each and every single one of those universes, every event, every choice. Nothing that occurred in any of those universes would be a surprise.
And yet, free will still exists because reality and people are still being altered by the choices they make. It only "seems" inevitable from the perspective of one within that pocket universe.
Presbyterians believe in Calvanism which absolutely states that those who go to heaven are predetermined by God.
Yes, but hardcore Calvanism is not the majority view anymore. That was my only point about predestination.
If you were God, you would KNOW, each and every single one of those universes, every event, every choice. Nothing that occurred in any of those universes would be a surprise.
And yet, free will still exists because reality and people are still being altered by the choices they make. It only "seems" inevitable from the perspective of one within that pocket universe.
Presbyterians believe in Calvanism which absolutely states that those who go to heaven are predetermined by God.
Yes, but hardcore Calvanism is not the majority view anymore. That was my only point about predestination.
surely one of you knows how to spell "Calvinism" correctly
Maybe I'm just confusing the Bible with Jesus Christ Superstar again, but wasn't Judas's betrayal based on Jesus seemingly ignoring his own tenets and Judas wanting to railroad the guy towards a role as Literal King of the Jews and Destroyer of the Romans? And the silver bribe was just something added later on by racist Europeans in the King James version to dunk on the Jews some more.
FC: 1435-5383-0883
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Judas' motivations are not entirely clear in the Gospels. John makes a point of mentioning at one point that Judas was stealing from the common funds, and Matthew records that he asked the Pharisees how much they would pay him to betray Jesus. The idea that he was expecting Jesus to be more of a crusading Messiah is not really supported in the text as far as I know.
It's late and I'm a bit not sober but this thread made me think in like almost a comic book sense about God and free will etc.
If we get broad enough in crazy sci fi, couldn't both free will and predestination exist at the same time around a being that exists beyond the 3rd dimension?
Like we still makes our choices and whatnot but it seems laid out in the end to someone who could see all of time at once?
Like "predicting" the ending to a show you've already seen?
It's late and I'm a bit not sober but this thread made me think in like almost a comic book sense about God and free will etc.
If we get broad enough in crazy sci fi, couldn't both free will and predestination exist at the same time around a being that exists beyond the 3rd dimension?
Like we still makes our choices and whatnot but it seems laid out in the end to someone who could see all of time at once?
Like "predicting" the ending to a show you've already seen?
The basic question is whether that is actually free will.
It's late and I'm a bit not sober but this thread made me think in like almost a comic book sense about God and free will etc.
If we get broad enough in crazy sci fi, couldn't both free will and predestination exist at the same time around a being that exists beyond the 3rd dimension?
Like we still makes our choices and whatnot but it seems laid out in the end to someone who could see all of time at once?
Like "predicting" the ending to a show you've already seen?
That is pretty much the first thought every Christian that hears about multi-verse theory immediately has, yes.
It's late and I'm a bit not sober but this thread made me think in like almost a comic book sense about God and free will etc.
If we get broad enough in crazy sci fi, couldn't both free will and predestination exist at the same time around a being that exists beyond the 3rd dimension?
Like we still makes our choices and whatnot but it seems laid out in the end to someone who could see all of time at once?
Like "predicting" the ending to a show you've already seen?
Thomas Aquinas came to the conclusion that God predetermined all events, but allowed man free will when it came to whether we sinned or not as true damnation required a rejection of God. So everything was determined except in regards to whether you accepted or rejected salvation.
Calvinism considers that the entire fate of everything, included whether you were damned or not, was predetermined at the beginning of everything.
Interestingly, these are both cases of predeterminism. It's just a matter of how much we are allowed free will within a predetermined system.
The reason this is largely an Abrahamic religion concept is because it comes down to another of the paradoxes of Omniscience. If god knows everything, including the future, then he is omniscient. If he does not know what will happen in the future, then he's not. This also applies to the idea of many-worlds, because if god can only see many paths but doesn't know which ones we'll take, then he's not omniscient. Seeing the path is not the same as knowing which we'll take, and if you don't know that then you're, by definition, not Omniscient.
The reason this is largely an Abrahamic religion concept is because it comes down to another of the paradoxes of Omniscience. If god knows everything, including the future, then he is omniscient. If he does not know what will happen in the future, then he's not. This also applies to the idea of many-worlds, because if god can only see many paths but doesn't know which ones we'll take, then he's not omniscient. Seeing the path is not the same as knowing which we'll take, and if you don't know that then you're, by definition, not Omniscient.
It's not a surprise if you consider Jesus as God in the flesh, as most Christians do. That is, the personality and goodness of God separated from the facet of omnipotent knowledge and power. I prefer to think of it God admiring his creations. The same way we form attachment sometimes to our simulated worlds.
Now I'm not saying for sure that God is playing out the most radical game of Dwarf Fortress ever (though some will certainly level that argument and on an emotional level I understand why)... But just like a player can "cheat" the rules of the game to preserve that one stubborn dwarf in horrible circumstances, like, turning the game off, there's nothing to say similar principles don't exist. C.S. Lewis wrote quite a lot on the topic.
Mostly it's just tiresome to see in comics God depicted as he is in Preacher, and not something more interesting (subjective).
Just read Captain Marvel #8, which had the new Quasar in it.
Holy shit, they introduced a Avril Kincaid in March of 2016, gave her the Quasar powers, had her show up only a handful of times over the next 17 months, and then killed her off in August.
What the fuck was the point? Did they have a plan for her that got aborted or something?
Just read Captain Marvel #8, which had the new Quasar in it.
Holy shit, they introduced a Avril Kincaid in March of 2016, gave her the Quasar powers, had her show up only a handful of times over the next 17 months, and then killed her off in August.
What the fuck was the point? Did they have a plan for her that got aborted or something?
Just read Captain Marvel #8, which had the new Quasar in it.
Holy shit, they introduced a Avril Kincaid in March of 2016, gave her the Quasar powers, had her show up only a handful of times over the next 17 months, and then killed her off in August.
What the fuck was the point? Did they have a plan for her that got aborted or something?
Because
Wendell Vaughn is the one true Quasar.
Reform the Annihilators plz
I'd rather have Phyla-Vell back, honestly.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Just read Captain Marvel #8, which had the new Quasar in it.
Holy shit, they introduced a Avril Kincaid in March of 2016, gave her the Quasar powers, had her show up only a handful of times over the next 17 months, and then killed her off in August.
What the fuck was the point? Did they have a plan for her that got aborted or something?
Because
Wendell Vaughn is the one true Quasar.
Reform the Annihilators plz
I'd rather have Phyla-Vell back, honestly.
You beat me to that post!
Also,
what justification do they have for the planetary shield? Was it powered by cosmic cube?
So the thing about Nick Spencer and digging up old comments--yes, people can change and things they said years ago may not represent the person they are now. But people DON'T change easily and change is often incremental at best. If Spencer was currently known for being a very strong progressive voice and people were digging up 12-year-old comments he made to discredit him, I would look sideways at that, since the context of those comments wouldn't match his behavior today. But Spencer is known currently for being a bit of a shithead who is trying to represent himself as progressive while massively failing to represent those views in a positive manner and in that particular context, those statements from 12 years ago make a lot of sense.
We are not judging him for what he said 12 years ago. We're judging him for what he's been saying in the past several months, informed by his entire history as a public figure. The "right to be forgotten" does not really exist--what you say publicly should be remembered. A good person will own their past transgressions and bad ones should not be enabled to hide them.
Just read Captain Marvel #8, which had the new Quasar in it.
Holy shit, they introduced a Avril Kincaid in March of 2016, gave her the Quasar powers, had her show up only a handful of times over the next 17 months, and then killed her off in August.
What the fuck was the point? Did they have a plan for her that got aborted or something?
Spoilers for later developments
I was pretty surprised too, but her death turned out to be a fakeout, which doesn't make much sense considering how it happened, but she's still alive as of her latest appearance.
Posts
What if there's a different god for each Universe?
Nah. It doesn't look like any site says how old he is, but recent pics look like he's in his 40s, and common scientific research says "who you are at 30 is who you'll be", so 12 years ago isn't a real argument. Especially since what he says/writes at most just placates a liberal/leftist ideal. Dude is, at best, a centrist liberal which is a "not the worst Republican" in 2017
Regardless of what he said 12 years ago, what he said in the past year is bad enough
That sounds like the plot of a Jon Constantine movie.
But no, there's not one of those to my recollection.
There's the Gnostics. The Gnostic Gospel of Judas states that Jesus told Judas to betray him because it was necessary for God's plan. However, it should come with the huge caveat that disagreeing with the Gnostics is a big part what led to the writing of the New Testament and the selection of the gospels in the first place.
That's a significantly more modern interpretation since many religious scholars and leadership either just flat out stated that there isn't free will at all or state that it is inherently a paradox and beyond understanding.
What he's said in the past year is bad enough, so hang him on that and not some old post from Bush's first term.
just, 100% way to go guys, you figured out the optimal government, no one attempt to change anything
we are hanging him on that
I've got three different copies of the bible to prove that it's still being changed, just because the more religious parts of my family likes to fight me on it and I can throw all three at them to prove them wrong.
we all know that general custer died at the battle of little bighorn. what my book presupposes is...maybe he didn't?
Rewriting John Carpenter of Mars?
Basically if you have any question about something in the Bible, chances are people have died for it.
Presbyterians believe in Calvanism which absolutely states that those who go to heaven are predetermined by God.
Reminds me of Hamlet 2
I'll only defend it when it supports my own arguments
I'm talking on a much longer view, hence calling the concept of free-will via multiple trajectories of time's arrow a more modern interpretation. Not just people now, but people then as well.
Yes, but hardcore Calvanism is not the majority view anymore. That was my only point about predestination.
It's not actually part of The Apocrypha, but is instead considered a Gnostic Gospel.
15/10. Would bless then boop.
I combined the Gnostics and Apocrypha in my head. My bad.
surely one of you knows how to spell "Calvinism" correctly
Dunno, but in this one, Mr Spencer decided to both sides harassment.
If we get broad enough in crazy sci fi, couldn't both free will and predestination exist at the same time around a being that exists beyond the 3rd dimension?
Like we still makes our choices and whatnot but it seems laid out in the end to someone who could see all of time at once?
Like "predicting" the ending to a show you've already seen?
The basic question is whether that is actually free will.
That is pretty much the first thought every Christian that hears about multi-verse theory immediately has, yes.
did click on the Marvel thread, right?
Thomas Aquinas came to the conclusion that God predetermined all events, but allowed man free will when it came to whether we sinned or not as true damnation required a rejection of God. So everything was determined except in regards to whether you accepted or rejected salvation.
Calvinism considers that the entire fate of everything, included whether you were damned or not, was predetermined at the beginning of everything.
Interestingly, these are both cases of predeterminism. It's just a matter of how much we are allowed free will within a predetermined system.
The reason this is largely an Abrahamic religion concept is because it comes down to another of the paradoxes of Omniscience. If god knows everything, including the future, then he is omniscient. If he does not know what will happen in the future, then he's not. This also applies to the idea of many-worlds, because if god can only see many paths but doesn't know which ones we'll take, then he's not omniscient. Seeing the path is not the same as knowing which we'll take, and if you don't know that then you're, by definition, not Omniscient.
It's not a surprise if you consider Jesus as God in the flesh, as most Christians do. That is, the personality and goodness of God separated from the facet of omnipotent knowledge and power. I prefer to think of it God admiring his creations. The same way we form attachment sometimes to our simulated worlds.
Now I'm not saying for sure that God is playing out the most radical game of Dwarf Fortress ever (though some will certainly level that argument and on an emotional level I understand why)... But just like a player can "cheat" the rules of the game to preserve that one stubborn dwarf in horrible circumstances, like, turning the game off, there's nothing to say similar principles don't exist. C.S. Lewis wrote quite a lot on the topic.
Mostly it's just tiresome to see in comics God depicted as he is in Preacher, and not something more interesting (subjective).
What the fuck was the point? Did they have a plan for her that got aborted or something?
Because
Reform the Annihilators plz
You beat me to that post!
Also,
We are not judging him for what he said 12 years ago. We're judging him for what he's been saying in the past several months, informed by his entire history as a public figure. The "right to be forgotten" does not really exist--what you say publicly should be remembered. A good person will own their past transgressions and bad ones should not be enabled to hide them.
Spoilers for later developments