Klyden was either raised to do this by parents who feared his secret being found, or started himself after learning he was born female (or both), but he's viciously overcompensating. He must be the manliest man, the gayest gay, the Moclanest Moclan. He hasn't peed in six years because he's such a manly Moclan man.
Short version, deep inside I think he feels exactly the same as Topa, but where Topa grew up around aliens and knew there are many ways to be different, Klyden knows only Moclan and Other, and channels his own pain to inflict it on others in turn.
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop and for somebody to find out the natural gender ratio is 1:1 and a full half of Moclans are "corrected."
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited July 2022
Well goddamn that was an episode, I did not have a permission slip for this feels trip. This was top-shelf material for why scifi is such an amazing genre: creating fictional mirrors by which to examine the highs and lows of what makes us human. Klyden makes us so damn angry and yet he's just doing what countless people do every day. We want Kelly to succeed so badly despite a stacked system, and yet countless people deal with that shit every day. And in the middle of it, a suffering kid who we just want to be happy with who they are and yet are denied a choice in their own future. And it's a long-ass episode! I didn't even realize it until I paused to make sure there was time for things to play out and saw there was a solid 20-30 minutes left. It was damn near a plain old feature-length film but I there for it the whole time.
Also, what the fuck?! Bortus can actually sing?! THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE. And here he is, just belting it out. And I guess the actor for Claire's son can actually play piano? What the heck else kind of talent is this show hiding?
And holy shit I want to hate Klyden so much, but I just keep coming back to the idea that Klyden is so tremendously a victim of the cultural venom his spits back up. Just can't shake the idea that all that hatred is focused on himself and the fact that he wants to switch as well, but his stubborn Moclan upbringing refuses to let him admit that he wants it. So he takes the easy way out instead: keep fomenting that hate and blame it on others. But even thinking that so much of his hatred is the anger of the victim, you can't avoid the fact that he's choosing to be such a shitty person as to direct all his anger at not just a child, but his own child. After having his shittiness on the ship for so long, it was pretty great watching Klyden get his ass handed to him repeatedly on every level.
Probably my favorite episode of the series. So glad they've managed to have the time to set up something like this and deliver such a great payoff to the frustrating, but all-too-real, conclusion of the episode where this all started. Really hope the show runs long enough to let us see a Topa in the Fleet, wildly succeeding when the entire culture of shitty Klyden insists she shouldn't exist. I hope everybody who worked on this episode is proud because it is so damn good.
Klyden is 100% a victim, but he's taken it into being a tremendous asshole.
Yeah whatever sympathy I could have is immediately gone when Bortus is right there and willing to change based on his past experiences with"Straight" Moclans The female colony and Union society. Meanwhile Klyden is just digging a deeper hole.
Also the Moclan reps being like "this sham trial whos data we have classified is a great victory for us" paints quite the portrait of their government
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Well goddamn that was an episode, I did not have a permission slip for this feels trip. This was top-shelf material for why scifi is such an amazing genre: creating fictional mirrors by which to examine the highs and lows of what makes us human. Klyden makes us so damn angry and yet he's just doing what countless people do every day. We want Kelly to succeed so badly despite a stacked system, and yet countless people deal with that shit every day. And in the middle of it, a suffering kid who we just want to be happy with who they are and yet are denied a choice in their own future. And it's a long-ass episode! I didn't even realize it until I paused to make sure there was time for things to play out and saw there was a solid 20-30 minutes left. It was damn near a plain old feature-length film but I there for it the whole time.
Also, what the fuck?! Bortus can actually sing?! THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE. And here he is, just belting it out. And I guess the actor for Claire's son can actually play piano? What the heck else kind of talent is this show hiding?
And holy shit I want to hate Klyden so much, but I just keep coming back to the idea that Klyden is so tremendously a victim of the cultural venom his spits back up. Just can't shake the idea that all that hatred is focused on himself and the fact that he wants to switch as well, but his stubborn Moclan upbringing refuses to let him admit that he wants it. So he takes the easy way out instead: keep fomenting that hate and blame it on others. But even thinking that so much of his hatred is the anger of the victim, you can't avoid the fact that he's choosing to be such a shitty person as to direct all his anger at not just a child, but his own child. After having his shittiness on the ship for so long, it was pretty great watching Klyden get his ass handed to him repeatedly on every level.
Probably my favorite episode of the series. So glad they've managed to have the time to set up something like this and deliver such a great payoff to the frustrating, but all-too-real, conclusion of the episode where this all started. Really hope the show runs long enough to let us see a Topa in the Fleet, wildly succeeding when the entire culture of shitty Klyden insists she shouldn't exist. I hope everybody who worked on this episode is proud because it is so damn good.
I honestly can't belive this episode, and the entire arc, is thanks to Seth "extended vomiting sequence over a tans person" McFarlane.
Well goddamn that was an episode, I did not have a permission slip for this feels trip. This was top-shelf material for why scifi is such an amazing genre: creating fictional mirrors by which to examine the highs and lows of what makes us human. Klyden makes us so damn angry and yet he's just doing what countless people do every day. We want Kelly to succeed so badly despite a stacked system, and yet countless people deal with that shit every day. And in the middle of it, a suffering kid who we just want to be happy with who they are and yet are denied a choice in their own future. And it's a long-ass episode! I didn't even realize it until I paused to make sure there was time for things to play out and saw there was a solid 20-30 minutes left. It was damn near a plain old feature-length film but I there for it the whole time.
Also, what the fuck?! Bortus can actually sing?! THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE. And here he is, just belting it out. And I guess the actor for Claire's son can actually play piano? What the heck else kind of talent is this show hiding?
And holy shit I want to hate Klyden so much, but I just keep coming back to the idea that Klyden is so tremendously a victim of the cultural venom his spits back up. Just can't shake the idea that all that hatred is focused on himself and the fact that he wants to switch as well, but his stubborn Moclan upbringing refuses to let him admit that he wants it. So he takes the easy way out instead: keep fomenting that hate and blame it on others. But even thinking that so much of his hatred is the anger of the victim, you can't avoid the fact that he's choosing to be such a shitty person as to direct all his anger at not just a child, but his own child. After having his shittiness on the ship for so long, it was pretty great watching Klyden get his ass handed to him repeatedly on every level.
Probably my favorite episode of the series. So glad they've managed to have the time to set up something like this and deliver such a great payoff to the frustrating, but all-too-real, conclusion of the episode where this all started. Really hope the show runs long enough to let us see a Topa in the Fleet, wildly succeeding when the entire culture of shitty Klyden insists she shouldn't exist. I hope everybody who worked on this episode is proud because it is so damn good.
I honestly can't belive this episode, and the entire arc, is thanks to Seth "extended vomiting sequence over a tans person" McFarlane.
It's like some people can learn and grow and be better, or something.
Well goddamn that was an episode, I did not have a permission slip for this feels trip. This was top-shelf material for why scifi is such an amazing genre: creating fictional mirrors by which to examine the highs and lows of what makes us human. Klyden makes us so damn angry and yet he's just doing what countless people do every day. We want Kelly to succeed so badly despite a stacked system, and yet countless people deal with that shit every day. And in the middle of it, a suffering kid who we just want to be happy with who they are and yet are denied a choice in their own future. And it's a long-ass episode! I didn't even realize it until I paused to make sure there was time for things to play out and saw there was a solid 20-30 minutes left. It was damn near a plain old feature-length film but I there for it the whole time.
Also, what the fuck?! Bortus can actually sing?! THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE. And here he is, just belting it out. And I guess the actor for Claire's son can actually play piano? What the heck else kind of talent is this show hiding?
And holy shit I want to hate Klyden so much, but I just keep coming back to the idea that Klyden is so tremendously a victim of the cultural venom his spits back up. Just can't shake the idea that all that hatred is focused on himself and the fact that he wants to switch as well, but his stubborn Moclan upbringing refuses to let him admit that he wants it. So he takes the easy way out instead: keep fomenting that hate and blame it on others. But even thinking that so much of his hatred is the anger of the victim, you can't avoid the fact that he's choosing to be such a shitty person as to direct all his anger at not just a child, but his own child. After having his shittiness on the ship for so long, it was pretty great watching Klyden get his ass handed to him repeatedly on every level.
Probably my favorite episode of the series. So glad they've managed to have the time to set up something like this and deliver such a great payoff to the frustrating, but all-too-real, conclusion of the episode where this all started. Really hope the show runs long enough to let us see a Topa in the Fleet, wildly succeeding when the entire culture of shitty Klyden insists she shouldn't exist. I hope everybody who worked on this episode is proud because it is so damn good.
Klyden is a necessary character for Bortus, because if Bortus acted like a very enlightened Moclan in the show, he'd just end up being another human. So, Klyden is able to show us what Moclan is really like, while Bortus is showing us what Moclan could become. I love Klydens character for this reason, on top of my dislike for his character emotionally. Because Klydens character is good enough to get such an emotional reaction from me.
I don't think it has been explicitly stated, but I think there has been a 2 or 2-1/2 year time skip between either Episodes 3 and 4. A lot of the story progresses, like the Krill Treaty, in ways that would take a couple of years to pull off.
I also like that the new actor for Topa was clearly a woman dressed as a man.
I think Season 1 Episode 3, which was the first part of this story, is some of the best TV ever made. This episode continues that story.
Well goddamn that was an episode, I did not have a permission slip for this feels trip. This was top-shelf material for why scifi is such an amazing genre: creating fictional mirrors by which to examine the highs and lows of what makes us human. Klyden makes us so damn angry and yet he's just doing what countless people do every day. We want Kelly to succeed so badly despite a stacked system, and yet countless people deal with that shit every day. And in the middle of it, a suffering kid who we just want to be happy with who they are and yet are denied a choice in their own future. And it's a long-ass episode! I didn't even realize it until I paused to make sure there was time for things to play out and saw there was a solid 20-30 minutes left. It was damn near a plain old feature-length film but I there for it the whole time.
Also, what the fuck?! Bortus can actually sing?! THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE. And here he is, just belting it out. And I guess the actor for Claire's son can actually play piano? What the heck else kind of talent is this show hiding?
And holy shit I want to hate Klyden so much, but I just keep coming back to the idea that Klyden is so tremendously a victim of the cultural venom his spits back up. Just can't shake the idea that all that hatred is focused on himself and the fact that he wants to switch as well, but his stubborn Moclan upbringing refuses to let him admit that he wants it. So he takes the easy way out instead: keep fomenting that hate and blame it on others. But even thinking that so much of his hatred is the anger of the victim, you can't avoid the fact that he's choosing to be such a shitty person as to direct all his anger at not just a child, but his own child. After having his shittiness on the ship for so long, it was pretty great watching Klyden get his ass handed to him repeatedly on every level.
Probably my favorite episode of the series. So glad they've managed to have the time to set up something like this and deliver such a great payoff to the frustrating, but all-too-real, conclusion of the episode where this all started. Really hope the show runs long enough to let us see a Topa in the Fleet, wildly succeeding when the entire culture of shitty Klyden insists she shouldn't exist. I hope everybody who worked on this episode is proud because it is so damn good.
I honestly can't belive this episode, and the entire arc, is thanks to Seth "extended vomiting sequence over a tans person" McFarlane.
It's like some people can learn and grow and be better, or something.
Also he didnt write that and I think a lot of his defense was just feeling obligated to protect his staff.
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Well goddamn that was an episode, I did not have a permission slip for this feels trip. This was top-shelf material for why scifi is such an amazing genre: creating fictional mirrors by which to examine the highs and lows of what makes us human. Klyden makes us so damn angry and yet he's just doing what countless people do every day. We want Kelly to succeed so badly despite a stacked system, and yet countless people deal with that shit every day. And in the middle of it, a suffering kid who we just want to be happy with who they are and yet are denied a choice in their own future. And it's a long-ass episode! I didn't even realize it until I paused to make sure there was time for things to play out and saw there was a solid 20-30 minutes left. It was damn near a plain old feature-length film but I there for it the whole time.
Also, what the fuck?! Bortus can actually sing?! THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE. And here he is, just belting it out. And I guess the actor for Claire's son can actually play piano? What the heck else kind of talent is this show hiding?
And holy shit I want to hate Klyden so much, but I just keep coming back to the idea that Klyden is so tremendously a victim of the cultural venom his spits back up. Just can't shake the idea that all that hatred is focused on himself and the fact that he wants to switch as well, but his stubborn Moclan upbringing refuses to let him admit that he wants it. So he takes the easy way out instead: keep fomenting that hate and blame it on others. But even thinking that so much of his hatred is the anger of the victim, you can't avoid the fact that he's choosing to be such a shitty person as to direct all his anger at not just a child, but his own child. After having his shittiness on the ship for so long, it was pretty great watching Klyden get his ass handed to him repeatedly on every level.
Probably my favorite episode of the series. So glad they've managed to have the time to set up something like this and deliver such a great payoff to the frustrating, but all-too-real, conclusion of the episode where this all started. Really hope the show runs long enough to let us see a Topa in the Fleet, wildly succeeding when the entire culture of shitty Klyden insists she shouldn't exist. I hope everybody who worked on this episode is proud because it is so damn good.
Klyden is a necessary character for Bortus, because if Bortus acted like a very enlightened Moclan in the show, he'd just end up being another human. So, Klyden is able to show us what Moclan is really like, while Bortus is showing us what Moclan could become. I love Klydens character for this reason, on top of my dislike for his character emotionally. Because Klydens character is good enough to get such an emotional reaction from me.
I don't think it has been explicitly stated, but I think there has been a 2 or 2-1/2 year time skip between either Episodes 3 and 4. A lot of the story progresses, like the Krill Treaty, in ways that would take a couple of years to pull off.
I also like that the new actor for Topa was clearly a woman dressed as a man.
I think Season 1 Episode 3, which was the first part of this story, is some of the best TV ever made. This episode continues that story.
Yeah, people always struggle with the bad person vs. bad character thing, which is why so many villains are given tragic backstories.
In wouldn't call Klyden a great villain, but Bortus's development needs him the same way Quark's needed Brunt.
Klyden isn't a villain at all, he's a regular joe Moclan trying to do right by his family and to avoid his child going through the same trauma he did. It's totally understandable how Klyden got to be where he is today. It's part of the cycle of toxic masculinity that Moclan society seems to be stuck in.
Klyden isn't a villain at all, he's a regular joe Moclan trying to do right by his family and to avoid his child going through the same trauma he did. It's totally understandable how Klyden got to be where he is today. It's part of the cycle of toxic masculinity that Moclan society seems to be stuck in.
Kylden didnt find out he was bio female until Bortus joined the union fleet and a non Moclan doctor examined him . The only childhood trauma he endured was dysphoria he couldn't explain and his shame at being born that way is self inflicted because nobody else knew or knew he found out
He is a victim but most of how he is acting is self inflicted.
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Klyden isn't a villain at all, he's a regular joe Moclan trying to do right by his family and to avoid his child going through the same trauma he did. It's totally understandable how Klyden got to be where he is today. It's part of the cycle of toxic masculinity that Moclan society seems to be stuck in.
Kylden didnt find out he was bio female until Bortus joined the union fleet and a non Moclan doctor examined him . The only childhood trauma he endured was dysphoria he couldn't explain and his shame at being born that way is self inflicted because nobody else knew or knew he found out
He is a victim but most of how he is acting is self inflicted.
I very much doubt that. Very very likely he suffered terribly in the same way that Topa was, except that Klyden's upbringing never even raised the question of his origins; any self-curiosity was brutalized out of him by Moclan society. Then when he found out he was female, he would've recalled the pain of what he went through as a child and realized the source, and now be stuck in a constant state of anger and self-doubt. His experience makes him embrace ignorance as a solution because, as he put it, "unhappiness is better than despair". And he simply cannot wrap his head around the idea that maybe his kid doesn't have to live with either of those, probably because Klyden thinks it's unfair that Topa should get such a chance for self-realization and self-resolution and he never will. Further, he hates that option because of a lifetime of pain while refusing to acknowledge that neither the pain or the despair is necessary and that it only exists because of the horrible standards of Moclan society.
Short interview with MacFarlane covering the subject matter in the Krill episode(confirming what everyone knew, it was written 2 years ago and it's just really unfortunate timing), as well as a few questions about this latest Moclan-centered episode. An interesting thing about the Krill episode is that the scene with the DNA simulation was inspired by some actual real life red state bullshit he'd heard about.
The Krill’s approach — introducing parents to a digital simulation of the kid they would have had — is pretty harrowing. Was that evoking any anti-abortion talking point that gets trotted out? That if you could meet your child, you might choose differently?
In some states you hear rumblings — if I were more educated as far as specific legislation, I could tell you which specific states — about the woman being forced to look at an ultrasound of her fetus before an abortion is allowed, which is pretty perverse. It’s a very bizarre concept, and you can imagine a future society looking at it, going, “Wow, what in the world is happening here?” When we wrote the episode, that was really the impetus for that wrinkle in their culture — how would a future society like Krill employ this kind of practice, with the technology of the future? This idea of extracting DNA and forcing the parents to sit and talk to “the child that could have been” seemed like a pretty potent science-fiction idea worth presenting.
Also, according to MacFarlane comedy is still happening
I love what you’ve done with the show and how you pivoted away from the expectations ahead of Season 1, when we thought The Orville might be a send-up like Quark or Galaxy Quest. That said, is there any “funnier” episode coming up?
Yes. Yes. [Laughs] I know that’s a question people have asked a lot. Yes. The comedy has not gone away; most of it is in the second half of the [10-episode] season, but it is there.
It’s interesting, I went back recently and watched some of the episodes of Season 2, because i really wanted to remind myself of what we were doing that was so different. And with some exceptions, the tone really wasn’t that different. I think there’s a little bit of revisionist history going on sometimes. The “Identity” two-parter with Tala and the Moclan sanctuary, the episode with Rena Owen where she plays the female Moclan leader….. These are pretty dramatic episodes that are no different in tone than what we’re doing now. I think that because it’s been so long [since Season 2], there’s a bit of revisionist history.
I saw it happen with Family Guy. After we had gone away for two years and came back, people acted like the first two seasons were 50-year-old classics that we could never recapture the tone of. [Laughs] I was like, “Guys, it’s only been a couple of years. Relax.”
I agree with all the Klyden hate, but I do think that they did a disservice to the story by making him so cartoonish.
Really, the only time we see or hear from Klyden is for him to be this misogynist wanker, or divorcing Bortus. Outside of helping Bortus teach the captain Latchcomb, was there any scene where he wasn't either a generic windowdressing, or an outright asshole?
We never got to see him as a real partner to Bortus, or a real father to Topa, or any relationship with any of the crew outside of those relationships.
Just means he gets memory holed, because he was such a cardboard cut out of a character rather than a more nuanced one the departure of should be a conflict.
Just feel like it should have been handled with something beyond "good riddance".
Temporal law is a beast. If they grabbed Gordon, would the obituary be there? Seems like keeping the sandwich. I can't help but think that Gordon Familyverse is now a branching timeline, though.
Side note, that sandwich better show up by the end of the season. Amazing brick joke.
I am, just, so happy that they acknowledged relativistic speeds in a Trek-style show. It's easy to time travel to the future if you have Tau Zero.
Yeah, the travel into the future time travel was very clever.
But if you want to obey temporal law, shouldn’t you refrain from even TRYING to invent a time machine?
I was kind of hoping that FamilyGordon would shout that to Ed : “Oh, I am breaking temporal law, but you guys encourage making a time machine, AND you take a whole spaceship with a whole crew back, AND you arrive too late and it’s all my fault?”
And honestly, who leaves a time machine just on? That is a thing that you always want to definitely switch off, just in case you get something like a core overload or something… Such a device should need layers upon layers of failsafes.
But in a way, I did not like the ending. I wanted FamilyGordon to be happy.
I mean, when he was zapped back, why would you actually want to retrieve him? Because you are in the current future where he lived and died, and if that future isn’t shit, why go back and try to “fix” it?
It just felt to me that the “time is in flux” was just timey wimey technobabble.
PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
New ep
Ed was an asshole. He knew Gordon had a family and was happy before he even met up with him. Why even talk to him then? Just go back in time to the right time and stop being a shithead.
Ed was an asshole. He knew Gordon had a family and was happy before he even met up with him. Why even talk to him then? Just go back in time to the right time and stop being a shithead.
Well.
While I agree, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. If Gordon had been a hermit all this time as protocol dictated, they could safely grab him there, without risking yet another dangerous time travel (which messed up the ship). I agree that they were assholes about it.
The non-asshole thing to do would be to take the family to the future. It would solve most of the timeline problems and give Gordon the one thing he always wanted. Instead he has no character development and is encouraged by a superior officer to start drinking heavily again.
Yeah, the travel into the future time travel was very clever.
But if you want to obey temporal law, shouldn’t you refrain from even TRYING to invent a time machine?
I was kind of hoping that FamilyGordon would shout that to Ed : “Oh, I am breaking temporal law, but you guys encourage making a time machine, AND you take a whole spaceship with a whole crew back, AND you arrive too late and it’s all my fault?”
And honestly, who leaves a time machine just on? That is a thing that you always want to definitely switch off, just in case you get something like a core overload or something… Such a device should need layers upon layers of failsafes.
But in a way, I did not like the ending. I wanted FamilyGordon to be happy.
I mean, when he was zapped back, why would you actually want to retrieve him? Because you are in the current future where he lived and died, and if that future isn’t shit, why go back and try to “fix” it?
It just felt to me that the “time is in flux” was just timey wimey technobabble.
OK, now I'm sad that they didn't show...
Gordon's friends that he's made since starting his family, a former cop in a wheelchair, a sketchy guy in a red shirt, and a black guy who speaks at a slow pace (though maybe hard to convey if they're not given lines).
No lines, just see them in the next yard over, waving to Gordon as he brings Ed and Kelly into the house.
What did they think was going to happen? It takes a very particular kind of person to be able to spend the rest of their life alone completely off the grid of which I would only consider a small fraction of the population as qualifying(much less Gordon of all people), so to expect anyone to do so simply because "you took an oath" is wildly naive and unreasonable.
But even before that became a factor, they never should have even met him at that point if they knew they could have just gotten the unobtanium and jumped further back anyway, they should have just ignored that version of Gordon and kept going to where they wanted to be. Dropping in anyway just to existentially threaten him and his family and then leave was recklessly cruel.
I would be greatly amused however if they just like took that offhanded argument they had about Gordon's descendants' potential impact on the Union's founding and used it as a springboard to set up some kind of Mirror Universe analogue and we get some goatee-wearing Anti-Union showing up as later antagonists founded on the existential animosity experienced by Gordon's son during the confrontation between Ed and Gordon at the end. It's just the kind of popcorn dumb I want to see from this show if we're going to be doing this sort of writing.
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Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Ep 3x06:
That was probably my favourite episode of the season thus far, and perhaps even the best episode of The Orville overall thus far, IMO. I really liked their relativistic solution to getting back to the future at the end, too.
But then I am a sucker for a well-written and executed, classic time travel story, and this felt like a particularly good one. And written by Seth himself!
I was surprised that the earlier version of Gordon was so easily convinced that they did the right thing; I kind of expected him to be at least a little bitter/wistful about what kind of life he was told he had in the other timeline (or perhaps branching alternate universe*, depending on how the time machine/time travel logic works in this show)... Mercer had to weigh up a whole bunch of unknowns, but still could have handled things better.
Oh and Isaac and Ensign Charly got to finally hash things out between them, somewhat, as pretend husband and wife - in so much, at least she's able to perhaps forgive Isaac enough to work well alongside him as a team, anyhow.
(*I like to think the other Gordon and his family are still alive, enjoying some sandwiches at a nice family picnic, sometime in 2026...)
They mention briefly while showing of the time machine at the start of the episode that causing a paradox can spawn off a parallel universe. Could be this episode is the origin point of the Orville's Mirror Universe.
It did feel like they undermined the moral quandary of the episode by having the past version of Malloy give them the all clear and thanking them for rescuing him. People do change over time, and it's believable that the version of himself stuck living in the woods for a month would be grateful to be rescued even if the version of him who'd spent a decade in the past and raised a family wouldn't, but it felt like they gave the crew a "get out of moral dilemma free" ticket by having him express no remorse about the life he could have lived. Brings up a really weird aspect of consent in relation to time travel, if a past version of yourself consents to something that your present self explicitly does not consent to, who should be the one to get to decide?
That was probably my favourite episode of the season thus far, and perhaps even the best episode of The Orville overall thus far, IMO. I really liked their relativistic solution to getting back to the future at the end, too.
But then I am a sucker for a well-written and executed, classic time travel story, and this felt like a particularly good one. And written by Seth himself!
I was surprised that the earlier version of Gordon was so easily convinced that they did the right thing; I kind of expected him to be at least a little bitter/wistful about what kind of life he was told he had in the other timeline (or perhaps branching alternate universe*, depending on how the time machine/time travel logic works in this show)... Mercer had to weigh up a whole bunch of unknowns, but still could have handled things better.
Oh and Isaac and Ensign Charly got to finally hash things out between them, somewhat, as pretend husband and wife - in so much, at least she's able to perhaps forgive Isaac enough to work well alongside him as a team, anyhow.
(*I like to think the other Gordon and his family are still alive, enjoying some sandwiches at a nice family picnic, sometime in 2026...)
Re, the last line...
They kind of have to be, or that obituary wouldn't have existed. Unless they go back and write an obituary for Gordon after they've snagged him.
Definitely seems like branching for each timeline observed.
That was probably my favourite episode of the season thus far, and perhaps even the best episode of The Orville overall thus far, IMO. I really liked their relativistic solution to getting back to the future at the end, too.
But then I am a sucker for a well-written and executed, classic time travel story, and this felt like a particularly good one. And written by Seth himself!
I was surprised that the earlier version of Gordon was so easily convinced that they did the right thing; I kind of expected him to be at least a little bitter/wistful about what kind of life he was told he had in the other timeline (or perhaps branching alternate universe*, depending on how the time machine/time travel logic works in this show)... Mercer had to weigh up a whole bunch of unknowns, but still could have handled things better.
Oh and Isaac and Ensign Charly got to finally hash things out between them, somewhat, as pretend husband and wife - in so much, at least she's able to perhaps forgive Isaac enough to work well alongside him as a team, anyhow.
(*I like to think the other Gordon and his family are still alive, enjoying some sandwiches at a nice family picnic, sometime in 2026...)
Re, the last line...
They kind of have to be, or that obituary wouldn't have existed. Unless they go back and write an obituary for Gordon after they've snagged him.
Definitely seems like branching for each timeline observed.
Yeah
They dropped the paradox talk early but the simple fact that rescuing Gordon in 2015 required them to get time juice in 2025 means that timeline has to exist even if they " Erased" it. Im betting the Qelly are dying laughing about this
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There may be some consequences with the mucking about with time. They did mine some ore. Interesting idea that his thoughts directed his time travel. I don't see how that is possible.
Ed was an asshole. He knew Gordon had a family and was happy before he even met up with him. Why even talk to him then? Just go back in time to the right time and stop being a shithead.
They have a tendency to screw up. It is what makes the show a little different than Trek.They also were not certain they could get the ore.
It didn't take 10 episodes to tell a story that could have been told in 1 or 2. It didn't spend an entire episode with a cop character that went nowhere, had no bearing on the main plot and was dropped right afterwards because they needed to reach the episode count.
Picard S2 is imo, the worst season of any Star Trek show in the franchise history. There are a few tiny grains of sand of things that could be interesting, but its drowned by a septic tank of shit.
Also
Tala and Lamar hooking up. works.
Charly revealing exactly why she hates Issac. Ditto.
People having lives outside of their work is an important part of their character. And it is just as important as the sci-fi stuff.
The natural time machine.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
I have been hoping for an alternate timeline for Gordon as well. Then all this talk of being the start of a mirror universe kicked something in my head. Gordon sent the message after he had been stranded for 6 months. They picked him up after only 1 month. They created a paradox by the stated rules of the episode which absolutely spawns a timeline. They changed the timeline by not letting him send the message to go pick him up. Oh that is clever.
I have been hoping for an alternate timeline for Gordon as well. Then all this talk of being the start of a mirror universe kicked something in my head. Gordon sent the message after he had been stranded for 6 months. They picked him up after only 1 month. They created a paradox by the states rules of the episode which absolutely spawns a timeline. They changed the timeline by not letting him send the message to go pick him up. Oh that is clever.
It's established that they're pretty much all fuckups, yes, and so far their errors have not gone unnoticed by the show.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Thoughts
1) The time travel CGI was fucking dope and I loved it.
2) I'm team Ed here. Malloy was drunk and thinking of a hologram girlfriend, and got caught in a time travel maguffin. Like the Union needs to seriously take this report to heart and make some changes, but the Orville made the right call there.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited July 2022
Wow, Ed and Kelly were way in the fuckin' wrong on this one.
They went back in time and created a new timeline by going there. That's the fucking timeline. It doesn't matter if Ed and Kelly prefer their original original timeline, intentionally fucking with this timeline is a heinous crime. They already know the Union and the future survive the accidental contamination, there is absolutely no good fucking reason to commit an actual temporal crime by changing the new future intentionally. They should've packed up their shit and gone back to the future, because this shit is, ethically, done. Not to mention they have no idea if their own timeline is even different from the original, because Gordon going back has already happened and is now a fixed point. Old Gordon was completely right, Ed was playing at god and was completely fucking wrong. Unmaking people entirely from existence? That's some ultra-grade evil, fuck temporal law made in a totally theoretical vacuum. Both of those officers should be ashamed to show their face to Gordon, forever.
As younger Gordon after being rescued, I would've thanked them for the rescue, spat in their faces, and resigned from the Union on the spot. Picard nailed this shit on directly on the head in regards to what Ed and Kelly did:
And even further
Ed and Kelly are applying law that doesn't fucking exist. In 2025, there is no Union and there is no Union law. They have no jurisdiction and no authority whatsoever, as even Union service is voluntary and Gordon withdrew his service. Gordon has every right to stay and they have nothing at all to justify taking him.
Remind me again why they couldn't take Malloy, Malloywife, and Malloyson with them, then go to 2015, pick up Malloy(+1Month), return to Union Central, and put Malloy(+10yr) on trial for his crimes?
Oh they'd create a paradox? they did that anyway by rescuing him before he sent the distress signal, they also used TIME MAGIC to create fuel from a timeline that no longer exists, but couldn't bring the woman and her child from that timeline? Just gonna go all TVA on us and destroying the entire universe lol
The reason this is so odious is that there was no time pressure, they literally have a time machine
The writers clearly just didn't think this one through and decided to make the heroes the villains, I was rooting for 3 lethal shots to the back tbh
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Remind me again why they couldn't take Malloy, Malloywife, and Malloyson with them, then go to 2015, pick up Malloy(+1Month), return to Union Central, and put Malloy(+10yr) on trial for his crimes?
Oh they'd create a paradox? they did that anyway by rescuing him before he sent the distress signal, they also used TIME MAGIC to create fuel from a timeline that no longer exists, but couldn't bring the woman and her child from that timeline? Just gonna go all TVA on us and destroying the entire universe lol
The reason this is so odious is that there was no time pressure, they literally have a time machine
The writers clearly just didn't think this one through and decided to make the heroes the villains, I was rooting for 3 lethal shots to the back tbh
Yeah, there was absolutely no real reason to
not take the family. The information in the time capsule already existed, the family was willing to go, and it would've resolved the issue far better than Gordon alone simply disappearing and leaving his family to try and cover it up. They even have a fair amount of knowledge about the fact that Gordon's wife did not have a major impact on the timeline. And for fuck's sake, Ed should've kept his mouth shut about going back in time; the only thing more outright evil than erasing Gordon's future and family was to fucking tell them it was about to happen. Nothing like giving your victims time to suffer for a loss they can do nothing to prevent. And it was forcing Gordon into the horrific position of having to choose to preserve his family or vaporize three people he thought were friends and decent people.
No idea how they thought the Union or Ed comes out in the right on this one.
Remind me again why they couldn't take Malloy, Malloywife, and Malloyson with them, then go to 2015, pick up Malloy(+1Month), return to Union Central, and put Malloy(+10yr) on trial for his crimes?
Oh they'd create a paradox? they did that anyway by rescuing him before he sent the distress signal, they also used TIME MAGIC to create fuel from a timeline that no longer exists, but couldn't bring the woman and her child from that timeline? Just gonna go all TVA on us and destroying the entire universe lol
The reason this is so odious is that there was no time pressure, they literally have a time machine
The writers clearly just didn't think this one through and decided to make the heroes the villains, I was rooting for 3 lethal shots to the back tbh
Yeah, there was absolutely no real reason to
not take the family. The information in the time capsule already existed, the family was willing to go, and it would've resolved the issue far better than Gordon alone simply disappearing and leaving his family to try and cover it up. They even have a fair amount of knowledge about the fact that Gordon's wife did not have a major impact on the timeline. And for fuck's sake, Ed should've kept his mouth shut about going back in time; the only thing more outright evil than erasing Gordon's future and family was to fucking tell them it was about to happen. Nothing like giving your victims time to suffer for a loss they can do nothing to prevent. And it was forcing Gordon into the horrific position of having to choose to preserve his family or vaporize three people he thought were friends and decent people.
No idea how they thought the Union or Ed comes out in the right on this one.
I still think there was no pressing need to get 2025 Gordon when they did to begin with, especially if there was any potential chance they could get the shungite and continue traveling back in time like they did. Harassing 2025 Gordon should have been a last resort if they knew they had no other option but to return to whatever future they were going to end up returning to from 2025.
Remind me again why they couldn't take Malloy, Malloywife, and Malloyson with them, then go to 2015, pick up Malloy(+1Month), return to Union Central, and put Malloy(+10yr) on trial for his crimes?
Oh they'd create a paradox? they did that anyway by rescuing him before he sent the distress signal, they also used TIME MAGIC to create fuel from a timeline that no longer exists, but couldn't bring the woman and her child from that timeline? Just gonna go all TVA on us and destroying the entire universe lol
The reason this is so odious is that there was no time pressure, they literally have a time machine
The writers clearly just didn't think this one through and decided to make the heroes the villains, I was rooting for 3 lethal shots to the back tbh
No they did this is set up for something
so based on how weve seen time travel in the show work before
-If people in the past change the future any visitor from thebold timeline is erased( BTW Ed you should be on trial too see below)
-Past Kelly shows Memories from a previous future timeline dont erase even if that timeline is changed
-In this episode they OPEN with if you create a paradox bam new timeline. The Orville would have created a new timeline either way by rescuing Gordon early( which wouldnt have been majorly different) but they actuslly create 3
Universe 1- Gordon has his family and dies at 96 nothing bad happens
Universe 2- They traumatize the Malloys and fuck knows whats gonna go on now that hes hellbent on saving them
Universe 3 now the Prime timeline- they save Gordon nothing changes
So yeah the villians here were the Orville crew and Ed is a time criminal
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
If they really do play up the paradox angle
I would fully expect Older Gordon to drop the hiding and just mash the gas pedal on tech advancement on Earth, intentionally creating a situation where the Union and Ed never exist to threaten his family. Not to mention jumpstarting Earth tech by 400 years should put them way out ahead of the Moclans, Krill, and Kaylon; Gordon knows at least enough to create a means of transmitting an FTL message from 2015 Earth
One other thing that was a weird nit to pick (and goes with something else from an earlier season):
Gordon stating that he's "a murderer" under Union law because he killed animals for food.
That's a really stupid law? Because life eats other life, and outlawing an entirely normal event is bizarre and draconian. I get if nobody wants to eat meat because they can just synthesize better, healthier food, but hunting animals isn't murder. And in an earlier episode, Ed broadly labels zoos as just places humans kept animals for entertainment, which is both wildly wrong and a huge disservice to the many people who devote their lives to the animals in their care at zoos. There are bad zoos, certainly, but lumping in the bad ones with the good ones is... stupid.
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Short version, deep inside I think he feels exactly the same as Topa, but where Topa grew up around aliens and knew there are many ways to be different, Klyden knows only Moclan and Other, and channels his own pain to inflict it on others in turn.
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop and for somebody to find out the natural gender ratio is 1:1 and a full half of Moclans are "corrected."
Also, what the fuck?! Bortus can actually sing?! THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE. And here he is, just belting it out. And I guess the actor for Claire's son can actually play piano? What the heck else kind of talent is this show hiding?
And holy shit I want to hate Klyden so much, but I just keep coming back to the idea that Klyden is so tremendously a victim of the cultural venom his spits back up. Just can't shake the idea that all that hatred is focused on himself and the fact that he wants to switch as well, but his stubborn Moclan upbringing refuses to let him admit that he wants it. So he takes the easy way out instead: keep fomenting that hate and blame it on others. But even thinking that so much of his hatred is the anger of the victim, you can't avoid the fact that he's choosing to be such a shitty person as to direct all his anger at not just a child, but his own child. After having his shittiness on the ship for so long, it was pretty great watching Klyden get his ass handed to him repeatedly on every level.
Probably my favorite episode of the series. So glad they've managed to have the time to set up something like this and deliver such a great payoff to the frustrating, but all-too-real, conclusion of the episode where this all started. Really hope the show runs long enough to let us see a Topa in the Fleet, wildly succeeding when the entire culture of shitty Klyden insists she shouldn't exist. I hope everybody who worked on this episode is proud because it is so damn good.
Yeah whatever sympathy I could have is immediately gone when Bortus is right there and willing to change based on his past experiences with"Straight" Moclans The female colony and Union society. Meanwhile Klyden is just digging a deeper hole.
Also the Moclan reps being like "this sham trial whos data we have classified is a great victory for us" paints quite the portrait of their government
I honestly can't belive this episode, and the entire arc, is thanks to Seth "extended vomiting sequence over a tans person" McFarlane.
It's like some people can learn and grow and be better, or something.
Klyden is a necessary character for Bortus, because if Bortus acted like a very enlightened Moclan in the show, he'd just end up being another human. So, Klyden is able to show us what Moclan is really like, while Bortus is showing us what Moclan could become. I love Klydens character for this reason, on top of my dislike for his character emotionally. Because Klydens character is good enough to get such an emotional reaction from me.
I don't think it has been explicitly stated, but I think there has been a 2 or 2-1/2 year time skip between either Episodes 3 and 4. A lot of the story progresses, like the Krill Treaty, in ways that would take a couple of years to pull off.
I think Season 1 Episode 3, which was the first part of this story, is some of the best TV ever made. This episode continues that story.
Also he didnt write that and I think a lot of his defense was just feeling obligated to protect his staff.
Yeah, people always struggle with the bad person vs. bad character thing, which is why so many villains are given tragic backstories.
In wouldn't call Klyden a great villain, but Bortus's development needs him the same way Quark's needed Brunt.
Kylden didnt find out he was bio female until Bortus joined the union fleet and a non Moclan doctor examined him . The only childhood trauma he endured was dysphoria he couldn't explain and his shame at being born that way is self inflicted because nobody else knew or knew he found out
He is a victim but most of how he is acting is self inflicted.
I very much doubt that. Very very likely he suffered terribly in the same way that Topa was, except that Klyden's upbringing never even raised the question of his origins; any self-curiosity was brutalized out of him by Moclan society. Then when he found out he was female, he would've recalled the pain of what he went through as a child and realized the source, and now be stuck in a constant state of anger and self-doubt. His experience makes him embrace ignorance as a solution because, as he put it, "unhappiness is better than despair". And he simply cannot wrap his head around the idea that maybe his kid doesn't have to live with either of those, probably because Klyden thinks it's unfair that Topa should get such a chance for self-realization and self-resolution and he never will. Further, he hates that option because of a lifetime of pain while refusing to acknowledge that neither the pain or the despair is necessary and that it only exists because of the horrible standards of Moclan society.
Short interview with MacFarlane covering the subject matter in the Krill episode(confirming what everyone knew, it was written 2 years ago and it's just really unfortunate timing), as well as a few questions about this latest Moclan-centered episode. An interesting thing about the Krill episode is that the scene with the DNA simulation was inspired by some actual real life red state bullshit he'd heard about.
In some states you hear rumblings — if I were more educated as far as specific legislation, I could tell you which specific states — about the woman being forced to look at an ultrasound of her fetus before an abortion is allowed, which is pretty perverse. It’s a very bizarre concept, and you can imagine a future society looking at it, going, “Wow, what in the world is happening here?” When we wrote the episode, that was really the impetus for that wrinkle in their culture — how would a future society like Krill employ this kind of practice, with the technology of the future? This idea of extracting DNA and forcing the parents to sit and talk to “the child that could have been” seemed like a pretty potent science-fiction idea worth presenting.
Also, according to MacFarlane comedy is still happening
Really, the only time we see or hear from Klyden is for him to be this misogynist wanker, or divorcing Bortus. Outside of helping Bortus teach the captain Latchcomb, was there any scene where he wasn't either a generic windowdressing, or an outright asshole?
We never got to see him as a real partner to Bortus, or a real father to Topa, or any relationship with any of the crew outside of those relationships.
Just means he gets memory holed, because he was such a cardboard cut out of a character rather than a more nuanced one the departure of should be a conflict.
Just feel like it should have been handled with something beyond "good riddance".
Side note, that sandwich better show up by the end of the season. Amazing brick joke.
I am, just, so happy that they acknowledged relativistic speeds in a Trek-style show. It's easy to time travel to the future if you have Tau Zero.
But if you want to obey temporal law, shouldn’t you refrain from even TRYING to invent a time machine?
I was kind of hoping that FamilyGordon would shout that to Ed : “Oh, I am breaking temporal law, but you guys encourage making a time machine, AND you take a whole spaceship with a whole crew back, AND you arrive too late and it’s all my fault?”
And honestly, who leaves a time machine just on? That is a thing that you always want to definitely switch off, just in case you get something like a core overload or something… Such a device should need layers upon layers of failsafes.
But in a way, I did not like the ending. I wanted FamilyGordon to be happy.
I mean, when he was zapped back, why would you actually want to retrieve him? Because you are in the current future where he lived and died, and if that future isn’t shit, why go back and try to “fix” it?
It just felt to me that the “time is in flux” was just timey wimey technobabble.
Well.
The non-asshole thing to do would be to take the family to the future. It would solve most of the timeline problems and give Gordon the one thing he always wanted. Instead he has no character development and is encouraged by a superior officer to start drinking heavily again.
OK, now I'm sad that they didn't show...
No lines, just see them in the next yard over, waving to Gordon as he brings Ed and Kelly into the house.
Anyway,
But even before that became a factor, they never should have even met him at that point if they knew they could have just gotten the unobtanium and jumped further back anyway, they should have just ignored that version of Gordon and kept going to where they wanted to be. Dropping in anyway just to existentially threaten him and his family and then leave was recklessly cruel.
I would be greatly amused however if they just like took that offhanded argument they had about Gordon's descendants' potential impact on the Union's founding and used it as a springboard to set up some kind of Mirror Universe analogue and we get some goatee-wearing Anti-Union showing up as later antagonists founded on the existential animosity experienced by Gordon's son during the confrontation between Ed and Gordon at the end. It's just the kind of popcorn dumb I want to see from this show if we're going to be doing this sort of writing.
But then I am a sucker for a well-written and executed, classic time travel story, and this felt like a particularly good one. And written by Seth himself!
I was surprised that the earlier version of Gordon was so easily convinced that they did the right thing; I kind of expected him to be at least a little bitter/wistful about what kind of life he was told he had in the other timeline (or perhaps branching alternate universe*, depending on how the time machine/time travel logic works in this show)... Mercer had to weigh up a whole bunch of unknowns, but still could have handled things better.
Oh and Isaac and Ensign Charly got to finally hash things out between them, somewhat, as pretend husband and wife - in so much, at least she's able to perhaps forgive Isaac enough to work well alongside him as a team, anyhow.
(*I like to think the other Gordon and his family are still alive, enjoying some sandwiches at a nice family picnic, sometime in 2026...)
It did feel like they undermined the moral quandary of the episode by having the past version of Malloy give them the all clear and thanking them for rescuing him. People do change over time, and it's believable that the version of himself stuck living in the woods for a month would be grateful to be rescued even if the version of him who'd spent a decade in the past and raised a family wouldn't, but it felt like they gave the crew a "get out of moral dilemma free" ticket by having him express no remorse about the life he could have lived. Brings up a really weird aspect of consent in relation to time travel, if a past version of yourself consents to something that your present self explicitly does not consent to, who should be the one to get to decide?
Definitely seems like branching for each timeline observed.
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Yeah
My take was:
It didn't take 10 episodes to tell a story that could have been told in 1 or 2. It didn't spend an entire episode with a cop character that went nowhere, had no bearing on the main plot and was dropped right afterwards because they needed to reach the episode count.
Picard S2 is imo, the worst season of any Star Trek show in the franchise history. There are a few tiny grains of sand of things that could be interesting, but its drowned by a septic tank of shit.
Also
Charly revealing exactly why she hates Issac. Ditto.
People having lives outside of their work is an important part of their character. And it is just as important as the sci-fi stuff.
The natural time machine.
It's established that they're pretty much all fuckups, yes, and so far their errors have not gone unnoticed by the show.
2) I'm team Ed here. Malloy was drunk and thinking of a hologram girlfriend, and got caught in a time travel maguffin. Like the Union needs to seriously take this report to heart and make some changes, but the Orville made the right call there.
As younger Gordon after being rescued, I would've thanked them for the rescue, spat in their faces, and resigned from the Union on the spot. Picard nailed this shit on directly on the head in regards to what Ed and Kelly did:
And even further
Oh they'd create a paradox?
they did that anyway by rescuing him before he sent the distress signal, they also used TIME MAGIC to create fuel from a timeline that no longer exists, but couldn't bring the woman and her child from that timeline? Just gonna go all TVA on us and destroying the entire universe lol
The reason this is so odious is that there was no time pressure, they literally have a time machine
The writers clearly just didn't think this one through and decided to make the heroes the villains, I was rooting for 3 lethal shots to the back tbh
Yeah, there was absolutely no real reason to
No idea how they thought the Union or Ed comes out in the right on this one.
No they did this is set up for something
-If people in the past change the future any visitor from thebold timeline is erased( BTW Ed you should be on trial too see below)
-Past Kelly shows Memories from a previous future timeline dont erase even if that timeline is changed
-In this episode they OPEN with if you create a paradox bam new timeline. The Orville would have created a new timeline either way by rescuing Gordon early( which wouldnt have been majorly different) but they actuslly create 3
Universe 1- Gordon has his family and dies at 96 nothing bad happens
Universe 2- They traumatize the Malloys and fuck knows whats gonna go on now that hes hellbent on saving them
Universe 3 now the Prime timeline- they save Gordon nothing changes
So yeah the villians here were the Orville crew and Ed is a time criminal
One other thing that was a weird nit to pick (and goes with something else from an earlier season):