Looking at those photos, that is worse than an actual prison. I should know, I work at an actual prison!
I just saw the piece on the news and thought the living conditions looked pretty nice? Not cages, more lie a dorm. The propaganda is ridiculous and we shouldnt be separating families but I thought the living conditions looked fine.
"This concentration camp for children we've forcibly taken from their parents for no reason other then to hurt people has like walls and shit. What are you people complaining about?"
Seriously dude, even ignoring that this is the camp they were willing to show reporters, wtf are you trying to say here?
Exactly what it sounds like I'm trying to say. If we want to get mad at them for the fucked up shit their doing, fine, but don't make up rage for no reason. People were saying they looked horrible, and we were just talking about how rumors were they were cages and the kids were using emergency blankets for bedding. They compared it to kennels
And these looked like dorms pretty much? The food they showed looked good, and everything was fine.
Maybe this us for the news piece and more often conditions aren't like that. But people were saying what they showed on the news piece was horrible. And it wasn't.
Except as linked above, there's other stories about other facilities where they couldn't take pictures talking about hte conditions you are claiming aren't real. Sorry dude, I don't see why you wanna try and act like we are lying just because you haven't been paying attention to the issue. Reports are kids in cages.
But again, why would you defend this anyway? "They are only in cells, not in cages" isn't just not compelling, it's fucking monstrous on it's own.
No shit Harry, they still have the ability to effect change if they want to. Of course not all the change we want but nothing is stopping them from declaring blanket filibusters until this ongoing crime is stopped.
As others have said, this isn't as easy as you suggest. Plus the GOP and their base like the government not functioning. The change you're proposing will be too minor to appeal to many left leaning voters, they need results to make anything worth doing and failure is viewed as appeasing/agreeing with/being as bad as the GOP. In this political environment it's practically a non-starter.
Harry, I agree with you on some things but seriously, put a cork in it.
EDIT: A little more actual substance here. This preemptive defensiveness really isn't helping anything. The Dems have a lot of options here, and they should use a lot of them. They can't pass a bill the same as they can't impeach, but they can put a lot of pressure on, both in Congress and in public opinions. Like, for example, going on all the news shows and saying "They wouldn't even let a US Senator take pictures of the inside of these places. They're just that bad."
Wasn't the compromise bill mostly a compromise among Republicans rather than any attempt to convince Democrats!
Yes as with any compromise recently its entirely to get the GOP all on board with something monstrous and assuming they'll get heitkamp and manchin to push it through.
That's the only card the Dems have, unfortunately. Either compromise or be unable to do anything about what the GOP are doing. These are their only options legislatively.
GOP does not have a super majority.
They have enough that the Dems can't just pass any bill through and they have the veto.
Shut down congress until the GOP agrees to pass a clean bill stopping this.
Actual filibusters. Not the modern one, literally anytime a Democrat has the floor, filibuster.
Bring Congress to a screeching halt until this is stopped.
Looking at those photos, that is worse than an actual prison. I should know, I work at an actual prison!
I just saw the piece on the news and thought the living conditions looked pretty nice? Not cages, more lie a dorm. The propaganda is ridiculous and we shouldnt be separating families but I thought the living conditions looked fine.
"This concentration camp for children we've forcibly taken from their parents for no reason other then to hurt people has like walls and shit. What are you people complaining about?"
Seriously dude, even ignoring that this is the camp they were willing to show reporters, wtf are you trying to say here?
Exactly what it sounds like I'm trying to say. If we want to get mad at them for the fucked up shit their doing, fine, but don't make up rage for no reason. People were saying they looked horrible, and we were just talking about how rumors were they were cages and the kids were using emergency blankets for bedding. They compared it to kennels
And these looked like dorms pretty much? The food they showed looked good, and everything was fine.
Maybe this us for the news piece and more often conditions aren't like that. But people were saying what they showed on the news piece was horrible. And it wasn't.
Except as linked above, there's other stories about other facilities where they couldn't take pictures talking about hte conditions you are claiming aren't real. Sorry dude, I don't see why you wanna try and act like we are lying just because you haven't been paying attention to the issue. Reports are kids in cages.
But again, why would you defend this anyway? "They are only in cells, not in cages" isn't just not compelling, it's fucking monstrous on it's own.
Because to me complaining about something that's adequate when even when what they show and tell you has sme glaring problems, loses the argument to the other side right away. We'be heard reports of living conditions being horrible, but what we were shown weren't. What was reported about what these kids go through was horrible. The overcrowding is an issue, but again, not an omg fix it now.
I think it weakens the argument. It also seems to me from what we've learned the living conditions are a smaller problem to how they are treated.
Edit basically if they were treated how children and how human beings should be treated, the living conditions we've shown would not be great and could be improved, but I don't think this would be a huge issue. But instead they're treated like prisoners so of course it's like living in a prison.
No shit Harry, they still have the ability to effect change if they want to. Of course not all the change we want but nothing is stopping them from declaring blanket filibusters until this ongoing crime is stopped.
As others have said, this isn't as easy as you suggest. Plus the GOP and their base like the government not functioning. The change you're proposing will be too minor to appeal to many left leaning voters, they need results to make anything worth doing and failure is viewed as appeasing/agreeing with/being as bad as the GOP. In this political environment it's practically a non-starter.
Harry, I agree with you on some things but seriously, put a cork in it.
EDIT: A little more actual substance here. This preemptive defensiveness really isn't helping anything. The Dems have a lot of options here, and they should use a lot of them. They can't pass a bill the same as they can't impeach, but they can put a lot of pressure on, both in Congress and in public opinions. Like, for example, going on all the news shows and saying "They wouldn't even let a US Senator take pictures of the inside of these places. They're just that bad."
Which is fine, the problem is --- you're the only one actually bringing this up as a worthwhile front of attack. The reason I'm being contrary here is that reasonable expectations goes out the window when people want to bring out the vengeance which is rightly reserved and it's not going to help the Dems long term when they are unable to fix the wrongs because they're not in position to do so. I've seen the pattern happen too often of the Dems not being able to do anything be used as weapon to denounce the party itself, and there are no answer to address this. And this ends up hurting the left further, at a time when they need to be gaining strength to combat this.
No shit Harry, they still have the ability to effect change if they want to. Of course not all the change we want but nothing is stopping them from declaring blanket filibusters until this ongoing crime is stopped.
As others have said, this isn't as easy as you suggest. Plus the GOP and their base like the government not functioning. The change you're proposing will be too minor to appeal to many left leaning voters, they need results to make anything worth doing and failure is viewed as appeasing/agreeing with/being as bad as the GOP. In this political environment it's practically a non-starter.
Harry, I agree with you on some things but seriously, put a cork in it.
EDIT: A little more actual substance here. This preemptive defensiveness really isn't helping anything. The Dems have a lot of options here, and they should use a lot of them. They can't pass a bill the same as they can't impeach, but they can put a lot of pressure on, both in Congress and in public opinions. Like, for example, going on all the news shows and saying "They wouldn't even let a US Senator take pictures of the inside of these places. They're just that bad."
Which is fine, the problem is --- you're the only one actually bringing this up as a worthwhile front of attack. The reason I'm being contrary here is that reasonable expectations goes out the window when people want to bring out the vengeance which is rightly reserved and it's not going to help the Dems long term when they are unable to fix the wrongs because they're not in position to do so. I've seen the pattern happen too often of the Dems not being able to do anything be used as weapon to denounce the party itself, and there are no answer to address this. And this ends up hurting the left further, at a time when they need to be gaining strength to combat this.
Well as long as everyone is being fair to Pelosi and Schumer in all this I guess.
Wait since when? Murphy held a filibuster for over 14 hours two years ago today
Old fashioned speaking filibusters relied on stopping everything due to how Senate rules worked back then. Changes to the rules meant those speaking filibusters couldn't really work like they did before and any legislation could be filibustered without them.
After a series of filibusters in the 1960s over civil rights legislation, the Senate put a "two-track system" into place in 1970 under the leadership of Majority Leader Mike Mansfield and Majority Whip Robert Byrd. Before this system was introduced, a filibuster would stop the Senate from moving on to any other legislative activity. Tracking allows the majority leader—with unanimous consent or the agreement of the minority leader—to have more than one bill pending on the floor as unfinished business. Under the two-track system, the Senate can have two or more pieces of legislation pending on the floor simultaneously by designating specific periods during the day when each one will be considered.[26][27]
Number of cloture motions filed, voted on, and invoked by the U.S. Senate since 1917.
The notable side effect of this change was that by no longer bringing Senate business to a complete halt, filibusters on particular legislation became politically easier for the minority to sustain.[29][30][31][32] As a result, the number of filibusters began increasing rapidly, eventually leading to the modern era in which an effective supermajority requirement exists to pass legislation, with no practical requirement that the minority party actually hold the floor or extend debate.
In 1975, the Senate revised its cloture rule so that three-fifths of sworn senators (60 votes out of 100) could limit debate, except for changing Senate rules which still requires a two-thirds majority of those present and voting to invoke cloture.[33][34] However, by returning to an absolute number of all Senators (60) rather than a proportion of those present and voting, the change also made any filibusters easier to sustain on the floor by a small number of senators from the minority party without requiring the presence of their minority colleagues. This further reduced the majority's leverage to force an issue through extended debate.
The Senate also experimented with a rule that removed the need to speak on the floor in order to filibuster (a "talking filibuster"), thus allowing for "virtual filibusters".[35] Another tactic, the post-cloture filibuster—which used points of order to delay legislation because they were not counted as part of the limited time allowed for debate—was rendered ineffective by a rule change in 1979.[36][37][38]
As the filibuster has evolved from a rare practice that required holding the floor for extended periods into a routine 60-vote supermajority requirement, Senate leaders have increasingly used cloture motions as a regular tool to manage the flow of business, often even in the absence of a threatened filibuster. Thus, the presence or absence of cloture attempts is not necessarily a reliable indicator of the presence or absence of a threatened filibuster. Because filibustering does not depend on the use of any specific rules, whether a filibuster is present is always a matter of judgment.[39]
No shit Harry, they still have the ability to effect change if they want to. Of course not all the change we want but nothing is stopping them from declaring blanket filibusters until this ongoing crime is stopped.
As others have said, this isn't as easy as you suggest. Plus the GOP and their base like the government not functioning. The change you're proposing will be too minor to appeal to many left leaning voters, they need results to make anything worth doing and failure is viewed as appeasing/agreeing with/being as bad as the GOP. In this political environment it's practically a non-starter.
If you won't even attempt to wield minority power over this issue then there's no point to them.
"The GOP likes it when government doesn't work" is buying into their propaganda. They love government working in the way they want. Cruel, destructive, personally enriching work it may be, but they have things they like to do with the reigns of government when they hold them and a blanket filibuster is at least some pressure that can be applied. They fume constantly about Democrats being in their way.
And as usual, you badly misunderstand the left.
Others have bought up other alternatives they can do, but ultimately what we want RE: ICE is off the table regarding congress and the courts.
The GOP and their base love when they obstruct things (RE: Obama), they dislike the aftermath and will blame Dems for it when that occurs. You're right in that they don't want all government shut down, like with ICE but that won't stop them being ok with congress being ground to a halt. They're not mutually exclusive for the right.
On the contrary, the far left are remarkably easy to read in situations like this. It doesn't take a genius to figure how they'll react to the Dems failing to shut down ICE and putting their staff in prison. As much as I'd love to see occur.
The big issue with the way immigrant kids are being treated is that many of them are separated from their parents with each side having no way of contacting the other or knowing if they are OK. That's devastating to both kids and parents. Even prisoners, separated from their kids, know where they *are* and can phone them occasionally.
Looking at those photos, that is worse than an actual prison. I should know, I work at an actual prison!
I just saw the piece on the news and thought the living conditions looked pretty nice? Not cages, more lie a dorm. The propaganda is ridiculous and we shouldnt be separating families but I thought the living conditions looked fine.
"This concentration camp for children we've forcibly taken from their parents for no reason other then to hurt people has like walls and shit. What are you people complaining about?"
Seriously dude, even ignoring that this is the camp they were willing to show reporters, wtf are you trying to say here?
Exactly what it sounds like I'm trying to say. If we want to get mad at them for the fucked up shit their doing, fine, but don't make up rage for no reason. People were saying they looked horrible, and we were just talking about how rumors were they were cages and the kids were using emergency blankets for bedding. They compared it to kennels
And these looked like dorms pretty much? The food they showed looked good, and everything was fine.
Maybe this us for the news piece and more often conditions aren't like that. But people were saying what they showed on the news piece was horrible. And it wasn't.
Except as linked above, there's other stories about other facilities where they couldn't take pictures talking about hte conditions you are claiming aren't real. Sorry dude, I don't see why you wanna try and act like we are lying just because you haven't been paying attention to the issue. Reports are kids in cages.
But again, why would you defend this anyway? "They are only in cells, not in cages" isn't just not compelling, it's fucking monstrous on it's own.
Because to me complaining about something that's adequate when even when what they show and tell you has sme glaring problems, loses the argument to the other side right away. We'be heard reports of living conditions being horrible, but what we were shown weren't. What was reported about what these kids go through was horrible. The overcrowding is an issue, but again, not an omg fix it now.
I think it weakens the argument. It also seems to me from what we've learned the living conditions are a smaller problem to how they are treated.
Edit basically if they were treated how children and how human beings should be treated, the living conditions we've shown would not be great and could be improved, but I don't think this would be a huge issue. But instead they're treated like prisoners so of course it's like living in a prison.
It's not adequate! The conditions you're saying didn't happen did!
The big issue with the way immigrant kids are being treated is that many of them are separated from their parents with each side having no way of contacting the other or knowing if they are OK. That's devastating to both kids and parents. Even prisoners, separated from their kids, know where they *are* and can phone them occasionally.
Theres some question as to how the government would even know who to reunite when they deport parents while shipping the kids off to foster homes deep in the interior
Looking at those photos, that is worse than an actual prison. I should know, I work at an actual prison!
I just saw the piece on the news and thought the living conditions looked pretty nice? Not cages, more lie a dorm. The propaganda is ridiculous and we shouldnt be separating families but I thought the living conditions looked fine.
"This concentration camp for children we've forcibly taken from their parents for no reason other then to hurt people has like walls and shit. What are you people complaining about?"
Seriously dude, even ignoring that this is the camp they were willing to show reporters, wtf are you trying to say here?
Exactly what it sounds like I'm trying to say. If we want to get mad at them for the fucked up shit their doing, fine, but don't make up rage for no reason. People were saying they looked horrible, and we were just talking about how rumors were they were cages and the kids were using emergency blankets for bedding. They compared it to kennels
And these looked like dorms pretty much? The food they showed looked good, and everything was fine.
Maybe this us for the news piece and more often conditions aren't like that. But people were saying what they showed on the news piece was horrible. And it wasn't.
Except as linked above, there's other stories about other facilities where they couldn't take pictures talking about hte conditions you are claiming aren't real. Sorry dude, I don't see why you wanna try and act like we are lying just because you haven't been paying attention to the issue. Reports are kids in cages.
But again, why would you defend this anyway? "They are only in cells, not in cages" isn't just not compelling, it's fucking monstrous on it's own.
Because to me complaining about something that's adequate when even when what they show and tell you has sme glaring problems, loses the argument to the other side right away. We'be heard reports of living conditions being horrible, but what we were shown weren't. What was reported about what these kids go through was horrible. The overcrowding is an issue, but again, not an omg fix it now.
I think it weakens the argument. It also seems to me from what we've learned the living conditions are a smaller problem to how they are treated.
Edit basically if they were treated how children and how human beings should be treated, the living conditions we've shown would not be great and could be improved, but I don't think this would be a huge issue. But instead they're treated like prisoners so of course it's like living in a prison.
It's not adequate! The conditions you're saying didn't happen did!
Yup. Which is why this conversation keeps circling back to the question of what you are trying to argue here.
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." - United States Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Session III, defending the policy of separating children from parents at the border, and interning them indefinitely.
The devil can quote Scripture for his purpose, sir, but a Cabinet secretary should not be in the habit. Let us first dispense with the notion that these actions have biblical support.
Continuing in the book of Romans, in Chapter 13, we see just seven to ten verses later: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
From the book of John, chapter 13, verse 34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
From Paul's letter to the Ephesians, chapter 4, verses 2 and 3: "Be always humble, gentle, and patient. Show your love by being tolerant with one another. Do your best to preserve the unity which the Spirit gives by means of the peace that binds you together."
From the book of Matthew, chapter 7, verse 12: "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
Again from the book of Matthew, chapter 25, verse 35: "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,"
From the book of Mark, chapter 9, verse 42: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea."
Again from the book of Mark, chapter 12, verse 31: "The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these."
From Paul's letter to the Galatians, chapter 5, verses 22 and 23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
From the book of Psalms, chapter 82, verses 3 and 4: "Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
From the book of Isaiah, chapter 1, verse 17: "Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause."
Had Attorney General Sessions done a more comprehensive Bible study, all this still would have been irrelevant, as the United States government is not a Christian institution, and is guided rather by the Constitution, acts of Congress, Executive Orders, and policies made by the President and his appointees. Cruelty is not in keeping with these principles, and these actions have openly been taken with the intent of treating immigrants so badly that fewer will come in the future.
Surely, basic human decency should dictate that young children should not be separated from parental care, ideally from their parents, for extended periods of time, much less indefinitely.
Surely, basic study would conclude that a number of governments in Central and South America are incapable of safeguarding their citizens, who flee as a result of their treatment.
Surely, basic history would show the history of the United States as a nation of immigrants, and asylum as a time-honored refuge from war and persecution.
Surely, a handful of people with the power to interfere with this unconscionable practice have the character to do so.
BREAKING: According to internal CBO [Chris Hayes made an error. This should be CBP] documents obtained by @allinwithchris, from June 3-11, fully ***91%*** of parents being prosecuted at the border and forcibly separated from their children are being prosecuted for a *misdemeanor.*
Additionally in that period of time 366 children were separated from their parents. Also, and this is still a bit unclear, the documents appear to show that child separation is happening *before* the decision to prosecute.
What possible reason is there for that other than abject cruelty?
Cruelty is the point. Their thought process, aside from pure racism, is that if they make things horrible enough, people won’t come here. And they are using torture to do it. And this is torture.
I’m a little rusty on my law of war, but I’m 99% sure that purposefully subjugating people to psychological torture is against the Geneva and Hague conventions, not to mention any physical conditions the children themselves are living in. We’re actively committing war crimes here.
Yes, Dems in Congress have little power, but God damnit! If there is nothing else worth shutting shit down for, this is it! Sure, the GOP doesn’t give a shit about a shutdown, but their donars do.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
It also frustrates me that they don't even really want to stop MS13 gangs, for all their talk about them. Every law enforcement agency who has dealings with large gangs knows that to stop them you need cooperating witnesses and informants. And you get that from the vulnerable communities of immigrants ms13 exploits. You can't frighten ms13 with draconian immigration enforcement, but you can frighten their victims into not coming forward to help you fight them
I'm sure Republicans *love* MS13 gangs, because otherwise they'd be talking about the evils of people who come here to work hard at crappy jobs. Some scary gangsters help out there.
Because I'm a time-traveller from 50 years ago, I think we should deport all Italians because of the Mafia.
What possible reason is there for that other than abject cruelty?
Cruelty is the point. Their thought process, aside from pure racism, is that if they make things horrible enough, people won’t come here. And they are using torture to do it. And this is torture.
I’m a little rusty on my law of war, but I’m 99% sure that purposefully subjugating people to psychological torture is against the Geneva and Hague conventions, not to mention any physical conditions the children themselves are living in. We’re actively committing war crimes here.
Yes, Dems in Congress have little power, but God damnit! If there is nothing else worth shutting shit down for, this is it! Sure, the GOP doesn’t give a shit about a shutdown, but their donars do.
Worse than that. Taking children of one race/ethnicity/etc. and giving them to people of another race/ethnicity/etc. is literally genocide.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I'm sure Republicans *love* MS13 gangs, because otherwise they'd be talking about the evils of people who come here to work hard at crappy jobs. Some scary gangsters help out there.
Because I'm a time-traveller from 50 years ago, I think we should deport all Italians because of the Mafia.
It's not quite 50 years, but ms13 started like 38 years ago. In LA
What possible reason is there for that other than abject cruelty?
Cruelty is the point. Their thought process, aside from pure racism, is that if they make things horrible enough, people won’t come here. And they are using torture to do it. And this is torture.
I’m a little rusty on my law of war, but I’m 99% sure that purposefully subjugating people to psychological torture is against the Geneva and Hague conventions, not to mention any physical conditions the children themselves are living in. We’re actively committing war crimes here.
Yes, Dems in Congress have little power, but God damnit! If there is nothing else worth shutting shit down for, this is it! Sure, the GOP doesn’t give a shit about a shutdown, but their donars do.
Too many people running in too many red states to be able to hold them in line on a shutdown over this I imagine.
The problem you are gonna keep coming back to here is that white supremacy is popular in the US.
Just a reminder that by seeking asylum, by definition, you have not committed illegal entry into the country. It's not until your asylum claim is denied that it would be judged that you have to leave the country.
But "innocent until proven guilty" only applies to white dudes in suits, apparently.
I'm sure Republicans *love* MS13 gangs, because otherwise they'd be talking about the evils of people who come here to work hard at crappy jobs. Some scary gangsters help out there.
Because I'm a time-traveller from 50 years ago, I think we should deport all Italians because of the Mafia.
It's not quite 50 years, but ms13 started like 38 years ago. In LA
To explain my joke, the Mafia were a big fear 50 years ago but no-one cares right now.
What possible reason is there for that other than abject cruelty?
Cruelty is the only point. Cruelty is the point.
The point of this is for everyone to notice "See how cruel we'll be to you? Don't bother coming up here."
This logic can justify any cruel and inappropriate punishment. "Don't want to have your fingernails removed with pliers? Then don't steal." "Don't want to be beaten to death with planks? Then don't break the speed limit." "Don't want to see your pets killed in front of your eyes? Then don't cheat on your taxes."
Intolerably cruel punishments as a deterrent. I thought we didn't like the Taliban for that reason?
What possible reason is there for that other than abject cruelty?
Cruelty is the only point. Cruelty is the point.
The point of this is for everyone to notice "See how cruel we'll be to you? Don't bother coming up here."
This logic can justify any cruel and inappropriate punishment. "Don't want to have your fingernails removed with pliers? Then don't steal." "Don't want to be beaten to death with planks? Then don't break the speed limit." "Don't want to see your pets killed in front of your eyes? Then don't cheat on your taxes."
Intolerably cruel punishments as a deterrent. I thought we didn't like the Taliban for that reason?
I’m pretty sure that Viskod was ex-laining the “reasoning” behind the policy, not agreeing with it.
But you are right, that the American right would happily become the taliban if you did a find replace of Mohammed/Quran/Islam with Jesus /Bible/Christian.
Also, if you want to see just how well supported these policies are within the USA, compare the protests and reaction to losing Obamacare/ACA to any of the anti-immigrant policies like killing DACA, the Muslim bans, and the most recent child stealing genocide.
This is a comedy show but it shows some of the highlights (or lowlights) of the policy. I for one hadn't heard that we had officially said that seperating kids from their parents was intentionally a deterant to immigrants. Like, I know we were doing it for that reason, but to hear them actually say it, is sickening. Also, Sessions quoted the bible to defend the policy. That's why I figured I'd share this. Colbert is a Catholic who actually walks the walk.
What possible reason is there for that other than abject cruelty?
Cruelty is the only point. Cruelty is the point.
The point of this is for everyone to notice "See how cruel we'll be to you? Don't bother coming up here."
This logic can justify any cruel and inappropriate punishment. "Don't want to have your fingernails removed with pliers? Then don't steal." "Don't want to be beaten to death with planks? Then don't break the speed limit." "Don't want to see your pets killed in front of your eyes? Then don't cheat on your taxes."
Intolerably cruel punishments as a deterrent. I thought we didn't like the Taliban for that reason?
I’m pretty sure that Viskod was ex-laining the “reasoning” behind the policy, not agreeing with it.
But you are right, that the American right would happily become the taliban if you did a find replace of Mohammed/Quran/Islam with Jesus /Bible/Christian.
Also, if you want to see just how well supported these policies are within the USA, compare the protests and reaction to losing Obamacare/ACA to any of the anti-immigrant policies like killing DACA, the Muslim bans, and the most recent child stealing genocide.
Whilst 'supported' does contain 'not actively opposed because it's not affecting me', I still feel there's still a fine delineation there that's worth noting.
Perhaps if only because some may be unaware of the genocide, and spreading the news is necessary.
I called my Congressfolk today and told them, among other things, that I want ICE investigated for criminal charges. Hadn't heard anything about this appeasement shit. Fuck THAT. I'll have to call more next week.
It's not enough. I wish I could personally do something to shut this down immediately.
I called my Congressfolk today and told them, among other things, that I want ICE investigated for criminal charges. Hadn't heard anything about this appeasement shit. Fuck THAT. I'll have to call more next week.
It's not enough. I wish I could personally do something to shut this down immediately.
I'm pretty sure my congressman is sadly doing the will of the people. I'm in a pretty republican area of California . And sadly, for a good portion of this country, is exactly what they want to be happening .
What possible reason is there for that other than abject cruelty?
Cruelty is the only point. Cruelty is the point.
The point of this is for everyone to notice "See how cruel we'll be to you? Don't bother coming up here."
We are talking about nazis. For them, cruelty is its own reward. Any dissuasive effect is only a bonus for them.
Normally, I would say sent them all to the Hague, but since the USA wanted to commit crime against humanity with impunity, the ICC does not technically have jurisdiction.
No shit Harry, they still have the ability to effect change if they want to. Of course not all the change we want but nothing is stopping them from declaring blanket filibusters until this ongoing crime is stopped.
As others have said, this isn't as easy as you suggest. Plus the GOP and their base like the government not functioning. The change you're proposing will be too minor to appeal to many left leaning voters, they need results to make anything worth doing and failure is viewed as appeasing/agreeing with/being as bad as the GOP. In this political environment it's practically a non-starter.
Harry, I agree with you on some things but seriously, put a cork in it.
EDIT: A little more actual substance here. This preemptive defensiveness really isn't helping anything. The Dems have a lot of options here, and they should use a lot of them. They can't pass a bill the same as they can't impeach, but they can put a lot of pressure on, both in Congress and in public opinions. Like, for example, going on all the news shows and saying "They wouldn't even let a US Senator take pictures of the inside of these places. They're just that bad."
Which is fine, the problem is --- you're the only one actually bringing this up as a worthwhile front of attack. The reason I'm being contrary here is that reasonable expectations goes out the window when people want to bring out the vengeance which is rightly reserved and it's not going to help the Dems long term when they are unable to fix the wrongs because they're not in position to do so. I've seen the pattern happen too often of the Dems not being able to do anything be used as weapon to denounce the party itself, and there are no answer to address this. And this ends up hurting the left further, at a time when they need to be gaining strength to combat this.
Well as long as everyone is being fair to Pelosi and Schumer in all this I guess.
I'm 100% done with this type of unproductive comment @Styrofoam Sammich , as well as never ending preemptive "the Dems can't do anything" comments from you @Harry Dresden
Both of you need to knock it off if you want to stay in the thread
I called my Congressfolk today and told them, among other things, that I want ICE investigated for criminal charges. Hadn't heard anything about this appeasement shit. Fuck THAT. I'll have to call more next week.
It's not enough. I wish I could personally do something to shut this down immediately.
I'm pretty sure my congressman is sadly doing the will of the people. I'm in a pretty republican area of California . And sadly, for a good portion of this country, is exactly what they want to be happening .
Chew em out anyway. Enough loud liberals or just conservatives who aren't complete assholes and it might move a needle.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I called my Congressfolk today and told them, among other things, that I want ICE investigated for criminal charges. Hadn't heard anything about this appeasement shit. Fuck THAT. I'll have to call more next week.
It's not enough. I wish I could personally do something to shut this down immediately.
I'm pretty sure my congressman is sadly doing the will of the people. I'm in a pretty republican area of California . And sadly, for a good portion of this country, is exactly what they want to be happening .
Chew em out anyway. Enough loud liberals or just conservatives who aren't complete assholes and it might move a needle.
Also, California reps are in for a tough fight, so they may be inclined to listen to this one.
WASHINGTON — Illinois Democratic Reps. Luis Gutierrez and Jan Schakowsky expected to be arrested on Wednesday for acts of civil disobedience. To their surprise, they were not.
The protesters, including Gutierrez, Schakowsky and others marched from Freedom Plaza to the Customs and Border Patrol headquarters at the Ronald Reagan Building on 14th St. They sat on the steps blocking the main entrance, but Customs and Border Patrol honchos never officially complained so the lawmakers and others — who had anticipated being arrested there — were left alone.
...
Nationally, Democrats are ramping up protests against the Trump administration over the child separation issue. Illinois Democratic Senators Dick Durbin and Tammy Duckworth joined with other Democratic senators who signed on to a bill to prevent the Department of Homeland Security from taking children from their parents at a border.
Dem leadership should come out loud and say they aren't going to "compromise" on any sort of bill because this isn't the sort of legislation that any decent human being should oppose.
Dem leadership should come out loud and say they aren't going to "compromise" on any sort of bill because this isn't the sort of legislation that any decent human being should oppose.
Agree. This shouldn't be a bargaining chip.
The administration, and by association, Republicans in general, are saying "We'll stop emotionally torturing children, if you give us something WE want.". And this should be made clear to people that's the case.
Clean bill, kids and parents not to be separated. Anything else, is using the threat of, or actual harm of children for political gains. There's a word for that.
Anything but a clean bill to stop this shit, and Republicans are engaging in terrorism.
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Except as linked above, there's other stories about other facilities where they couldn't take pictures talking about hte conditions you are claiming aren't real. Sorry dude, I don't see why you wanna try and act like we are lying just because you haven't been paying attention to the issue. Reports are kids in cages.
But again, why would you defend this anyway? "They are only in cells, not in cages" isn't just not compelling, it's fucking monstrous on it's own.
Harry, I agree with you on some things but seriously, put a cork in it.
EDIT: A little more actual substance here. This preemptive defensiveness really isn't helping anything. The Dems have a lot of options here, and they should use a lot of them. They can't pass a bill the same as they can't impeach, but they can put a lot of pressure on, both in Congress and in public opinions. Like, for example, going on all the news shows and saying "They wouldn't even let a US Senator take pictures of the inside of these places. They're just that bad."
Congress isn't doing anything anyway dude.
Because to me complaining about something that's adequate when even when what they show and tell you has sme glaring problems, loses the argument to the other side right away. We'be heard reports of living conditions being horrible, but what we were shown weren't. What was reported about what these kids go through was horrible. The overcrowding is an issue, but again, not an omg fix it now.
I think it weakens the argument. It also seems to me from what we've learned the living conditions are a smaller problem to how they are treated.
Edit basically if they were treated how children and how human beings should be treated, the living conditions we've shown would not be great and could be improved, but I don't think this would be a huge issue. But instead they're treated like prisoners so of course it's like living in a prison.
Wait since when? Murphy held a filibuster for over 14 hours two years ago today
Which is fine, the problem is --- you're the only one actually bringing this up as a worthwhile front of attack. The reason I'm being contrary here is that reasonable expectations goes out the window when people want to bring out the vengeance which is rightly reserved and it's not going to help the Dems long term when they are unable to fix the wrongs because they're not in position to do so. I've seen the pattern happen too often of the Dems not being able to do anything be used as weapon to denounce the party itself, and there are no answer to address this. And this ends up hurting the left further, at a time when they need to be gaining strength to combat this.
Well as long as everyone is being fair to Pelosi and Schumer in all this I guess.
Old fashioned speaking filibusters relied on stopping everything due to how Senate rules worked back then. Changes to the rules meant those speaking filibusters couldn't really work like they did before and any legislation could be filibustered without them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_States_Senate#The_two-track_system,_60-vote_rule_and_rise_of_the_routine_filibuster_(1970_onward)
Others have bought up other alternatives they can do, but ultimately what we want RE: ICE is off the table regarding congress and the courts.
The GOP and their base love when they obstruct things (RE: Obama), they dislike the aftermath and will blame Dems for it when that occurs. You're right in that they don't want all government shut down, like with ICE but that won't stop them being ok with congress being ground to a halt. They're not mutually exclusive for the right.
On the contrary, the far left are remarkably easy to read in situations like this. It doesn't take a genius to figure how they'll react to the Dems failing to shut down ICE and putting their staff in prison. As much as I'd love to see occur.
It's not adequate! The conditions you're saying didn't happen did!
Theres some question as to how the government would even know who to reunite when they deport parents while shipping the kids off to foster homes deep in the interior
Yup. Which is why this conversation keeps circling back to the question of what you are trying to argue here.
The devil can quote Scripture for his purpose, sir, but a Cabinet secretary should not be in the habit. Let us first dispense with the notion that these actions have biblical support.
Continuing in the book of Romans, in Chapter 13, we see just seven to ten verses later: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
From the book of John, chapter 13, verse 34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
From Paul's letter to the Ephesians, chapter 4, verses 2 and 3: "Be always humble, gentle, and patient. Show your love by being tolerant with one another. Do your best to preserve the unity which the Spirit gives by means of the peace that binds you together."
From the book of Matthew, chapter 7, verse 12: "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
Again from the book of Matthew, chapter 25, verse 35: "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,"
From the book of Mark, chapter 9, verse 42: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea."
Again from the book of Mark, chapter 12, verse 31: "The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these."
From Paul's letter to the Galatians, chapter 5, verses 22 and 23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
From the book of Psalms, chapter 82, verses 3 and 4: "Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
From the book of Isaiah, chapter 1, verse 17: "Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause."
Had Attorney General Sessions done a more comprehensive Bible study, all this still would have been irrelevant, as the United States government is not a Christian institution, and is guided rather by the Constitution, acts of Congress, Executive Orders, and policies made by the President and his appointees. Cruelty is not in keeping with these principles, and these actions have openly been taken with the intent of treating immigrants so badly that fewer will come in the future.
Surely, basic human decency should dictate that young children should not be separated from parental care, ideally from their parents, for extended periods of time, much less indefinitely.
Surely, basic study would conclude that a number of governments in Central and South America are incapable of safeguarding their citizens, who flee as a result of their treatment.
Surely, basic history would show the history of the United States as a nation of immigrants, and asylum as a time-honored refuge from war and persecution.
Surely, a handful of people with the power to interfere with this unconscionable practice have the character to do so.
MSNBC host:
NBC reporter:
Cruelty is the point. Their thought process, aside from pure racism, is that if they make things horrible enough, people won’t come here. And they are using torture to do it. And this is torture.
I’m a little rusty on my law of war, but I’m 99% sure that purposefully subjugating people to psychological torture is against the Geneva and Hague conventions, not to mention any physical conditions the children themselves are living in. We’re actively committing war crimes here.
Yes, Dems in Congress have little power, but God damnit! If there is nothing else worth shutting shit down for, this is it! Sure, the GOP doesn’t give a shit about a shutdown, but their donars do.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Because I'm a time-traveller from 50 years ago, I think we should deport all Italians because of the Mafia.
Worse than that. Taking children of one race/ethnicity/etc. and giving them to people of another race/ethnicity/etc. is literally genocide.
It's not quite 50 years, but ms13 started like 38 years ago. In LA
Too many people running in too many red states to be able to hold them in line on a shutdown over this I imagine.
The problem you are gonna keep coming back to here is that white supremacy is popular in the US.
But "innocent until proven guilty" only applies to white dudes in suits, apparently.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Cruelty is the only point. Cruelty is the point.
The point of this is for everyone to notice "See how cruel we'll be to you? Don't bother coming up here."
To explain my joke, the Mafia were a big fear 50 years ago but no-one cares right now.
This logic can justify any cruel and inappropriate punishment. "Don't want to have your fingernails removed with pliers? Then don't steal." "Don't want to be beaten to death with planks? Then don't break the speed limit." "Don't want to see your pets killed in front of your eyes? Then don't cheat on your taxes."
Intolerably cruel punishments as a deterrent. I thought we didn't like the Taliban for that reason?
I’m pretty sure that Viskod was ex-laining the “reasoning” behind the policy, not agreeing with it.
But you are right, that the American right would happily become the taliban if you did a find replace of Mohammed/Quran/Islam with Jesus /Bible/Christian.
Also, if you want to see just how well supported these policies are within the USA, compare the protests and reaction to losing Obamacare/ACA to any of the anti-immigrant policies like killing DACA, the Muslim bans, and the most recent child stealing genocide.
MWO: Adamski
Whilst 'supported' does contain 'not actively opposed because it's not affecting me', I still feel there's still a fine delineation there that's worth noting.
Perhaps if only because some may be unaware of the genocide, and spreading the news is necessary.
It's not enough. I wish I could personally do something to shut this down immediately.
I'm pretty sure my congressman is sadly doing the will of the people. I'm in a pretty republican area of California . And sadly, for a good portion of this country, is exactly what they want to be happening .
We are talking about nazis. For them, cruelty is its own reward. Any dissuasive effect is only a bonus for them.
Normally, I would say sent them all to the Hague, but since the USA wanted to commit crime against humanity with impunity, the ICC does not technically have jurisdiction.
I'm 100% done with this type of unproductive comment @Styrofoam Sammich , as well as never ending preemptive "the Dems can't do anything" comments from you @Harry Dresden
Both of you need to knock it off if you want to stay in the thread
Chew em out anyway. Enough loud liberals or just conservatives who aren't complete assholes and it might move a needle.
Also, California reps are in for a tough fight, so they may be inclined to listen to this one.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
The administration, and by association, Republicans in general, are saying "We'll stop emotionally torturing children, if you give us something WE want.". And this should be made clear to people that's the case.
Clean bill, kids and parents not to be separated. Anything else, is using the threat of, or actual harm of children for political gains. There's a word for that.
Anything but a clean bill to stop this shit, and Republicans are engaging in terrorism.