Strike First, Strike Hard, No Mercy [Cobra Kai] (open spoilers)

So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
edited May 2018 in Debate and/or Discourse
Holy fucking shit did you love The Karate Kid? Are you stuck running around the past in your head? Are you a washed up 80s movie villain who was a product of a psychotic sensei? Do you like fucking FOREIGNER?

Well strap in and get ready to have some FEELS about toxic masculinity with Cobra Kai!



It's on YouTube Red. But you can watch the first two episodes for free I think!

So watch it! HIYAH

So It Goes on
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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    IMPORTANT: youtube red has a free trial so you can watch the whole dang thing FOR FREE RIGHT NOW

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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    My thoughts after the first couple of episodes:
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    okay so my big worry was that this show would just be the TV show version of those dumb clickbait hot take articles where people were like "Daniel was the REAL bad guy of Karate Kid" (because Danny made moves on Ally when she was dating Johnny, Danny instigated one of the fights, etc). I mean, Danny is definitely a jersey punk kid with a big mouth but but Johnny and the other guys literally try to murder him at one point. The idea that Danny is the bad guy and Johnny was secretly the good guy is the kind of thing that could only occur to the sort of person who would write an article like "15 Pieces of Evidence that Westworld is a Dream Being Had By Leonardo DiCaprio in Inception."

    But Cobra Kai is thankfully not that and I think it demonstrated it pretty well with its very first line, where the kid introduces himself and Johnny replies "great, another fucking immigrant." I can't imagine anyone putting that there and thinking we're supposed to feel that Johnny is unambiguously the good guy.

    We see his shitty, shabby life and how people treat him and it definitely sucks and evokes our sympathy but it's equally clear that it's largely a problem of his own making. He's constantly drinking cough syrup and being an asshole to people. He's not all bad - he has some kind of residual sympathy for the neighbor kid - but he's mostly burdened down with self-pity and a fuckton of toxic masculinity and leftover bullshit from 35 years ago. He's basically never left the year 1984.

    Daniel, meanwhile, has moved on and is a successful family man. Again, this looks kind of like an underdog vs the big mean rich guy setup, like Dodgeball or something, but Daniel hasn't somehow turned bad. He reacts impulsively and flips out when he catches his daughter having a house party in his pool but then talks to her - and it's an actual talk, rather than a lecture - and it's clear they're close and trust each other. The show isn't setting him up as some kind of moron Hollywood dad. On the other hand, he's really preoccupied with encountering Johnny and seeing that the dojo has reopened and is being kind of nosy about it. My guess is that he's got some stuff left over from high school that he hasn't entirely gotten over either and some mild dissatisfaction with his current path and is projecting some of his fears onto Johnny.

    Obviously there's going to be conflict between the two men but I very much feel like the show is not taking sides and it seems warmhearted enough that I think the end result will be some kind of redemption for Johnny and inner peace for Daniel. It's not giving Johnny a free pass on being an asshole and it doesn't seem to be doing the obvious thing of suggesting that Daniel's life is hollow and meaningless simply because he's a well-off family man.

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Mmhmm a mean girls subplot, super defined high school cliques

    They got some 90s movie up in here

    Matev
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Oh ps open spoilers in here

  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    Do people seriously think that Johnny was the protagonist of the movie? Because the only person I've ever seen say that was Barney on How I Met Your Mother and he also thought the Terminator was a tragedy because the killer robot didnt win.

  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    There better be some old lady in this show that trips some guy with a broom.

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    "It's too late, Johnny. There are no do overs."

    Heh.

    Jacobkosh
  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    I watched this last week and it reminds me of Superior Spider-Man in that Johnny goes about being a protagonist in the only way he knows how, invariably fucking a whole bunch of shit up in the process.

    Like, he makes steps towards being better, but you see it’s almost a too little too late thing.

    Ep 10 spoilers
    And that he’s passed his feud and sins onto the next generation oh no.

    There’s a lot to unpack with this show and I look forward to seeing more people’s thoughts on it.

    Matev on
    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    I like that it showed both of them as flawed human beings that both invest far to much importance into a single event.

    For Johnny, his loss is the start of his downward spiral. This despite his shitty home life, his teacher being a psycho and his attitude towards women being that of a MRA neaderthal. He would still be laying on the floor of his house at the start of the series even if he had won,

    Danny has the opposite problem. His home life is good, his teacher is a caring second father and his attitude is way more positive. He would probably still be successful business man even if he had lost. He would probably be a saner and more secure person too. Since he would probably gone to a shrink to deal with his insecurities, instead of hiding behind "I totally beat my bully in a tournament once".

    What I find funny is episode 8 or 9, when they are in the bar, its obvious that they are both still hung up about Ally, despite her being a successful doctor in Colorado. She probably hasn't thought of them in years, yet to them, she is still the girl that got away.

    The kids a fine and its nice to see that the Geeks being able to fight does not make them nice people. Hawk is a douchbag that uses his skills to mess people up.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    I've started the binge and 2 ESP in. It is amazing. I always knew Larusso would turn out to be a dick.

    RickRude
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    I've started the binge and 2 ESP in. It is amazing. I always knew Larusso would turn out to be a dick.

    Ha. Just wait.

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  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    Yah, Hawk and Miguel’s descent is pretty messed up to watch.

    The other thing 9 (pretty sure it was 9) shows is that but for all the stupid crap that they’ve built up about each other, Danny and Johnny could have been friends, moving past their initial meeting and rivalry, but they can’t let the past go, so they’re doomed this cycle of conflict.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
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  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    Matev wrote: »
    Yah, Hawk and Miguel’s descent is pretty messed up to watch.

    The other thing 9 (pretty sure it was 9) shows is that but for all the stupid crap that they’ve built up about each other, Danny and Johnny could have been friends, moving past their initial meeting and rivalry, but they can’t let the past go, so they’re doomed this cycle of conflict.

    Man, they really know their audience

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  • PiotyrPiotyr Registered User regular
    The episode where Daniel amd Johnny finally sit down and talk like adults is the best thing to come out of this entire IP.

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  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    Sadgasm wrote: »
    Matev wrote: »
    Yah, Hawk and Miguel’s descent is pretty messed up to watch.

    The other thing 9 (pretty sure it was 9) shows is that but for all the stupid crap that they’ve built up about each other, Danny and Johnny could have been friends, moving past their initial meeting and rivalry, but they can’t let the past go, so they’re doomed this cycle of conflict.

    Man, they really know their audience

    It does lean on nostalgia, but it also moves the story forward
    Personally, I would have liked it if Johnny had thrown in the towel for Miguel in the final, planting the seeds of reconciliation with Danny and Robby, but it’s just as interesting to go the “Everything you ever wanted” ending as well in this case, because Johnny clearly regrets what happened, and now not only must contend with his guilt, but whatever machination his own Sensei/Father-figure has in store for the revival of Cobra-Kai.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
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  • 21stCentury21stCentury A lovely pixel artist and gamecrafter [They/Them]Registered User regular
    So, Youtube Red.

    Is that like Netflix with regional restrictions on their shows?

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    So, Youtube Red.

    Is that like Netflix with regional restrictions on their shows?
    It's like YouTube without ads and you can watch cobra kai and weird but entertaining who done it, and you can save YouTube videos onto your phone for later consumption when you don't have wifi or your driving through Georgia and don't have any 4G.

  • 21stCentury21stCentury A lovely pixel artist and gamecrafter [They/Them]Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    So, Youtube Red.

    Is that like Netflix with regional restrictions on their shows?
    It's like YouTube without ads and you can watch cobra kai and weird but entertaining who done it, and you can save YouTube videos onto your phone for later consumption when you don't have wifi or your driving through Georgia and don't have any 4G.

    Right, but do I, a Canadian from the Wildlands, have access to all the programming?

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    I just finished the first 10 eps. It was amazing.

    I love Hawk

    zepherin on
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  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    the 1-2 punch of
    miyagi flashback and nerds feeling empowered joining Cobra Kai really almost made me tear up in episode 5

    wanna read the thread but I'm worried about spoiling myself but I'll probably finish tonight

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Realtalk: I've never seen any Karate Kid movie. I had a novelization of the 3rd movie that I used to practice speed reading as a young kid, but that was it. Like any person right on the edge of Gen Y / Millenial status, I know the basic plot outline though.

    This show keeps popping up on my radar, and I want to check it out. Most notably, the concept that it is a comedy kind of blows my mind.

    Then, the creators were interviewed on All Things Considered...

    https://www.npr.org/2018/05/16/611727787/cobra-kai-looks-at-what-happened-after-the-karate-kid-beat-the-school-bully

    Yeah. I want to check this out, as there is some good insight in there.

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    ATHENOR

    WATCH KARATE KID

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Yes sir!

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Where are the teachers in this school jesus

    Ugh I love Miguel I'ma be sad when he becomes a bully

    So It Goes on
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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    P.s. I hate that the NPR interviewer calls it a reboot. What. It's a sequel! Or a follow up.

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  • BillyIdleBillyIdle What does "katana" mean? It means "Japanese sword."Registered User regular
    I used my free trial to watch this.

    Liked it so much that I will happy sub for a month to see season two if it happens!!!

    PSN: BillyIdle_
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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Yes Sensei

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    Yes Sensei

    Thought that too on the nose. :) bit also regretted not posting that around 1am last night.


    BTW, today Google announced they are changing the pricing structure of YouTube Red next week. The price will go up $2, above the existing Google music price. Existing subscriptions will stay at $10 for now.

    Dunno if the free trial month will still be available.

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  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    I can't tell if the show is glamorizing the violence as a wink and a nod toward our own immorality in celebrating it, or whether it thinks it is justified.

    Case in point, Aisha's sexual assault'ish attack on Yasmine was met by cheering and later a pat on the back by the show's least muddled protagonist Samantha.

    Surprise.
    - Spy
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    I think a big part of this is that there are no 'good guys'

    and also that bullying is bad, whether it exactly means to say that getting revenge on a bully is a good thing. Being tough is good also but you shouldn't fight dirty.

    which really is to say I don't think there's a simple or single message here. it purposely shows a whole bunch of different ideas working out for different people (we can't say Hawk isn't happier now even if he's an aggro asshole. same for Miguel etc. but they're also cheaters and if we have any connection to LaRusso we want to see honor in our fighters.)

    But LaRusso learned to fight dirty too, with the rent move (even if that's not karate/physical, it was fucked up even if it only affected Johnny and it didn't)

    I don't think there's a neat summation here, which is actually kind of a great response to the way to simple notion that if you could beat your bully in a karate tournament in high school life would be perfect.

    maybe I'm missing something though. please, more people post in here.



    I truly cannot believe how much I liked this. cannot fucking believe it.

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  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited May 2018
    like you'd think if Miguel was gonna win he'd at least do it clean, or else they'd have Robby win. but things don't always go that way. Miguel starts out as Danny but becomes more like Johnny with the reverse for Robby, but then the Johnny stand in wins. I don't think there's a message there. Miguel also trained longer and Robby was injured, it can be that simple and still be a good story.

    I liked the connection of the 2 legged kick (was that really in a karate kid movie or was that a retcon-ish thing?) to skateboarding, made it believable that he'd pull it off so quickly.

    Variable on
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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Variable wrote: »
    I think a big part of this is that there are no 'good guys'

    and also that bullying is bad, whether it exactly means to say that getting revenge on a bully is a good thing. Being tough is good also but you shouldn't fight dirty.

    which really is to say I don't think there's a simple or single message here. it purposely shows a whole bunch of different ideas working out for different people (we can't say Hawk isn't happier now even if he's an aggro asshole. same for Miguel etc. but they're also cheaters and if we have any connection to LaRusso we want to see honor in our fighters.)

    But LaRusso learned to fight dirty too, with the rent move (even if that's not karate/physical, it was fucked up even if it only affected Johnny and it didn't)

    I don't think there's a neat summation here, which is actually kind of a great response to the way to simple notion that if you could beat your bully in a karate tournament in high school life would be perfect.

    maybe I'm missing something though. please, more people post in here.



    I truly cannot believe how much I liked this. cannot fucking believe it.

    I get mixed signals from the show a lot, where the undertones are obviously meant to show you that all these people carrying baggage over a high school amateur karate tournament in the 80s is ridiculous, but also the characters in the show seem to care SO MUCH that a single white people karate dojo being open.

  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    yeah, the 'mixed signals' thing was my reaction after 2 episodes and it didn't really fade.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Variable wrote: »
    I think a big part of this is that there are no 'good guys'

    and also that bullying is bad, whether it exactly means to say that getting revenge on a bully is a good thing. Being tough is good also but you shouldn't fight dirty.

    which really is to say I don't think there's a simple or single message here. it purposely shows a whole bunch of different ideas working out for different people (we can't say Hawk isn't happier now even if he's an aggro asshole. same for Miguel etc. but they're also cheaters and if we have any connection to LaRusso we want to see honor in our fighters.)

    But LaRusso learned to fight dirty too, with the rent move (even if that's not karate/physical, it was fucked up even if it only affected Johnny and it didn't)

    I don't think there's a neat summation here, which is actually kind of a great response to the way to simple notion that if you could beat your bully in a karate tournament in high school life would be perfect.

    maybe I'm missing something though. please, more people post in here.



    I truly cannot believe how much I liked this. cannot fucking believe it.
    Macchio and Zabka both had very nuanced performances with layers of conflict and flaws, at one point does the bullied become the bully, and the cycle of violence is truly apparent in this show, and it was all on show during the Tournament, and I think the line at the end where Cobra Kai was related to a gang added another flavor to it and let you think.

    I mean I couldn't stop watching, it was masterfully done. I was one of the best shows I've seen in a while, give them all the emmys.

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  • navgoosenavgoose Registered User regular
    I watched the first episode.

    Johnny makes a point that LaRusso won by an illegal kick where Cobra Kai was penalized for illegal moves. Danny kinda dodges the point.

    Did they ever revisit this? It's been a while since I watched but I'm pretty sure there were other strikes to the head that weren't illegal in other matches.

    Real Karate Tourneys rules vary somewhat and the crane kick would be fine in some, and illegal in others but not always for the same reason.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    navgoose wrote: »
    I watched the first episode.

    Johnny makes a point that LaRusso won by an illegal kick where Cobra Kai was penalized for illegal moves. Danny kinda dodges the point.

    Did they ever revisit this? It's been a while since I watched but I'm pretty sure there were other strikes to the head that weren't illegal in other matches.

    Real Karate Tourneys rules vary somewhat and the crane kick would be fine in some, and illegal in others but not always for the same reason.
    Not really, I believe they want it to remain ambiguous.

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  • navgoosenavgoose Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    navgoose wrote: »
    I watched the first episode.

    Johnny makes a point that LaRusso won by an illegal kick where Cobra Kai was penalized for illegal moves. Danny kinda dodges the point.

    Did they ever revisit this? It's been a while since I watched but I'm pretty sure there were other strikes to the head that weren't illegal in other matches.

    Real Karate Tourneys rules vary somewhat and the crane kick would be fine in some, and illegal in others but not always for the same reason.
    Not really, I believe they want it to remain ambiguous.

    I'm cool with it (the ambiguity) being a deliberate character beat.

    It's just very appropriate that this question comes up in the first episode. I've heard real and net debates on why was it wasn't Daniel DQ'd.

  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Yes sir!

    Yea dude.
    How....

    Just watch it. lol

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    navgoose wrote: »
    zepherin wrote: »
    navgoose wrote: »
    I watched the first episode.

    Johnny makes a point that LaRusso won by an illegal kick where Cobra Kai was penalized for illegal moves. Danny kinda dodges the point.

    Did they ever revisit this? It's been a while since I watched but I'm pretty sure there were other strikes to the head that weren't illegal in other matches.

    Real Karate Tourneys rules vary somewhat and the crane kick would be fine in some, and illegal in others but not always for the same reason.
    Not really, I believe they want it to remain ambiguous.

    I'm cool with it (the ambiguity) being a deliberate character beat.

    It's just very appropriate that this question comes up in the first episode. I've heard real and net debates on why was it wasn't Daniel DQ'd.

    I think you're gonna like this show.

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  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    I think the mixed signals are intentional, and good. For people brought up on movies like Karate Kid, we’re conditioned to root for the underdogs, because we see ourselves in them.

    Letting the Cobra Kais become assholes and bullies themselves while continuing to hold the mirror up and make us question ourselves for initially rooting for them is excellent if only for provoking the critical thinking, but also that’s how life goes. Someone who’s oppressed can become an oppressor and vice versa.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
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