IANAL so I can't comment on the specific legality of openly paying somebody off before an election with your own money vs. telling somebody else to use theirs (we know from the Cohen recordings that the latter is what ended up happening) or at least to make it appear that it didn't come from you by using a shell corporation, but IMO using money to affect an election should always be reported. I see no value in allowing people to keep dirty little secrets when running for the highest office in the land.
"But Josh! Then hush money won't be hush money!" Yep.
And, again IMO, the penalty for intentionally failing to report hush money -- intentionally hiding facts from the American public with the intent of misleading them -- should be very severe. We're not talking about holding up a liquor store, we're talking about defrauding the nation. Americans deserve to know the truth about the people they elect to represent them, and any attempt to keep the public from being able to make a decision based on the facts should be met with harsh penalties.
I guess I don't see how Trump can wriggle out of this. In the end, there are three possibilities:
1) Trump paid hush money all on his own to influence the election, and didn't report it. This is a crime.
2) Trump told Cohen to take his money, launder it through a shell corporation to avoid reporting it as a campaign expenditure (and thus open to scrutiny), and pay hush money to influence the election. This is a really criminal crime.
3) Trump is a super dumb-dumb who didn't know what the hell Cohen was talking about when they met to discuss hush money and just said yes to everything by accident and was surprised later on when he heard that Cohen did it, so he paid Cohen back from his own funds, and then lied to the American people when he said he didn't know about it. This is technically not a crime, but would make Trump not just the most incompetent human being to ever hold an office in this country, but perhaps the dumbest human being in history. Also -- lol he knew what he was doing.
everyone knows trump is a criminal, but the side that counts (currently) doesn't care
he doesn't need to wriggle out of this because thanks to a corrupt gop being in charge of everything, he will face no consequences
"I didn't know about the payments until long after they happened."
"The payments came directly from me, not the campaign."
Cohen had access to his money though. I thought that was pretty standard? Saves you needing to authorize all the transactions involved in your law things.
Cohen specifically plead guilty to getting a fraudulent loan to pay off one of the women (I think daniels) so no it wasn't trump's money.
Ah ok so he loaned the money and then made a fake invoice for Trump to get his money back? Still sounds like actually Trumps money, but makes it murkier.
No. Because a loan is a campaign contribution and Trump knowing about it means that he solicited and directed an illegal campaign contribution. And Trump knew about it because we have him on tape talking about the payment before it happened
edit: And we know about the tape because Rudi Guiliani released it...
I know it's said a lot, but he's really got the worst fucking lawyers. He clearly doesn't even understand what part the crime is.
Trump tried to use plausible deniability to have his cake and eat it too. Give his lawyer access to his funds, and then when it comes out that Cohen was using those funds for shady/illegal things (for Trumps benefit, not Cohen's) he can act all, "i had no idea what Cohen was doing with my money! I'm the real victim here."
Trump loses that deniability when Giuliani specifically mentions that this strategy was intentional on TV (with the cover of, "Everybody does it!", leading to Giuliani being fired from his law firm) and also Cohen recorded the conversations with Trump telling him to do those things.
I’m reminded of when Comey testified a year ago, and Trump completely changed his story six or seven times, but every media outlet was bending over backwards and squinting to make the argument that technically Comey may have omitted something tiny and specific that wasn’t relevant and thus the two stories should be granted equal weight.
Trump can change his story as much as he wants, which is incredibly frustrating. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if he ever winds up under oath.
"I didn't know about the payments until long after they happened."
"The payments came directly from me, not the campaign."
Cohen had access to his money though. I thought that was pretty standard? Saves you needing to authorize all the transactions involved in your law things.
Cohen specifically plead guilty to getting a fraudulent loan to pay off one of the women (I think daniels) so no it wasn't trump's money.
Ah ok so he loaned the money and then made a fake invoice for Trump to get his money back? Still sounds like actually Trumps money, but makes it murkier.
No. Because a loan is a campaign contribution and Trump knowing about it means that he solicited and directed an illegal campaign contribution. And Trump knew about it because we have him on tape talking about the payment before it happened
edit: And we know about the tape because Rudi Guiliani released it...
I know it's said a lot, but he's really got the worst fucking lawyers. He clearly doesn't even understand what part the crime is.
*accused of robbing a bank*
*argues he had an account at that bank*
"He thought he was making a withdrawal."
"You just handed me a copy of his demand note."
Never forget that Guiliani had exit chances at almost every step (they got worse and less convincing each time, but they were there, he could have attempted some kind of damage control), and he kept going left, like somebody stubbornly trying to pick the "No" option in a Zelda game no matter how many times Sahasrahla repeats himself. This isn't just a self inflicted wound. This is a self inflicted scrape that he damn near opened up into a full amputation.
Trump can change his story as much as he wants, which is incredibly frustrating. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if he ever winds up under oath.
I expect zero things to change if he ever winds up under oath.
He will just adlib and lie as he goes along. It's what he does all the time. It's why Guliani considers him being brought to testify as a "perjury trap" because the dude can't help but fucking lie about everything.
Trump can change his story as much as he wants, which is incredibly frustrating. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if he ever winds up under oath.
I expect zero things to change if he ever winds up under oath.
He will just adlib and lie as he goes along. It's what he does all the time. It's why Guliani considers him being brought to testify as a "perjury trap" because the dude can't help but fucking lie about everything.
under oath is what matters, though. It's why Clinton had actual problems... not because he lied to the public or because he coerced a woman into sex acts, but because he lied about it under oath. Luckily for him, the Senate was partisan enough to view a little light perjury as not meeting the Constitutional standard for removal...
"You can't ask him to tell the truth! He'd obviously lie, and that's on YOU for trying to force him to not lie!"
I mean, it shouldn't be lost in here that police love to get people to accidently talk themselves into trouble and a lot of innocent people get fucked over by this.
Trump can change his story as much as he wants, which is incredibly frustrating. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if he ever winds up under oath.
I expect zero things to change if he ever winds up under oath.
He will just adlib and lie as he goes along. It's what he does all the time. It's why Guliani considers him being brought to testify as a "perjury trap" because the dude can't help but fucking lie about everything.
under oath is what matters, though. It's why Clinton had actual problems... not because he lied to the public or because he coerced a woman into sex acts, but because he lied about it under oath. Luckily for him, the Senate was partisan enough to view a little light perjury as not meeting the Constitutional standard for removal...
Not really. Nixon's articles of impeachment included a section on misleading the public.
There is a vast gulf of difference between a normal police interview and someone lying there, and the president of the united states unable to talk to his special prosecutor because he'll lie.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Trump can change his story as much as he wants, which is incredibly frustrating. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if he ever winds up under oath.
I expect zero things to change if he ever winds up under oath.
He will just adlib and lie as he goes along. It's what he does all the time. It's why Guliani considers him being brought to testify as a "perjury trap" because the dude can't help but fucking lie about everything.
under oath is what matters, though. It's why Clinton had actual problems... not because he lied to the public or because he coerced a woman into sex acts, but because he lied about it under oath. Luckily for him, the Senate was partisan enough to view a little light perjury as not meeting the Constitutional standard for removal...
As part of a clear fishing expedition? Yeah, no, probably not.
Trump can change his story as much as he wants, which is incredibly frustrating. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if he ever winds up under oath.
I expect zero things to change if he ever winds up under oath.
He will just adlib and lie as he goes along. It's what he does all the time. It's why Guliani considers him being brought to testify as a "perjury trap" because the dude can't help but fucking lie about everything.
under oath is what matters, though. It's why Clinton had actual problems... not because he lied to the public or because he coerced a woman into sex acts, but because he lied about it under oath. Luckily for him, the Senate was partisan enough to view a little light perjury as not meeting the Constitutional standard for removal...
Not really. Nixon's articles of impeachment included a section on misleading the public.
making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation had been conducted with respect to allegations of misconduct on the part of personnel of the executive branch of the United States and personnel of the Committee for the Re-election of the President, and that there was no involvement of such personnel in such misconduct: or
This was within the context of obstruction of justice in the Watergate break in.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
If the worst thing Trump has to worry about is perjury he should count himself lucky. If they didn't hatchet Bill Clinton for it's not like I'd suspect it to go differently a second time.
Someone might try, but while impeaching and removing a president over perjury is technically possible it ain't, like, likely even with an opposition held Congress. Now the implied complicity in a felony? You bet your ass if comes out there's smoking guns in congress and the house ever flips democrat.
0
Options
silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
It's more about the other people implicated in a Trump Foundation investigation, including the Donald Trump, his three oldest children, and his son in law, not being pardonable in New York state matters.
Isn't it being paid by Trump despite being campaign expenses precisely what makes it an illegal campaign expense?
Yes. The only way any of this is legal (for Trump, anyway) is if (a) Trump did not order it, (b) did not know about it, and (c) did not use his own money for it, because we know the expenditure was not reported as it should have been.
And if he conspired with somebody else to break the law, that's a whole other crime in and of itself.
Of course, we have all literally heard an audio recording of Trump (a) ordering it, (b) knowing about it, (c) offering to pay it in cash before hastily being told NO by Cohen and (d) conspiring with his "lawyer" to break the law.
I feel like it's insane that he isn't wearing an orange jumpsuit right now, even knowing the political reality.
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
It's literally a crime with a potential 5-year prison sentence, and that doesn't even take into account any of the other shit he's pulled.
Associated Press reports Cohen has been subpoenaed in the investigation into the Trump Foundation.
NY state gets the Trump kids
SDNY gets Trump
Mueller left with just Jared, Manafort and Rohrabacher
It'd be amusing if once Mueller finishes, nobody is left. So, while the Right has been trying to disparage his investigation this whole time, he has just been a smokescreen for all these other cases to railroad the felons.
And he rides out to the sunset saying, "That's how you play 25d chess, mf'ers!" and opens his investigation folder and it reads: "Couldn't find anything".
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
It's literally a crime with a potential 5-year prison sentence, and that doesn't even take into account any of the other shit he's pulled.
Indeed, the whole 'its not a crime' defence is for when you give $10000 of your own money to your campaign to help with paying for some TV commercials and forget to declare it. If you talk to someone and they say, "We've got to make this payoff ASAP or the public will find out about your affairs and you'll never win the election!" and you pay with your own money then the defence doesn't work.
I mean we've got the whole Russia conspiracy, we've got obstruction of justice, we've got conspiracy to defraud the US/commit offense, abuse of power (all his hotels and using Mar a Lago for access)...
If Trump wasn't being protected by his own party, there are a shitload of crimes he's dead to rights on.
I mean we've got the whole Russia conspiracy, we've got obstruction of justice, we've got conspiracy to defraud the US/commit offense, abuse of power (all his hotels and using Mar a Lago for access)...
If Trump wasn't being protected by his own party, there are a shitload of crimes he's dead to rights on.
And we must remember this moment. In reality, we wont impeach Trump, and the best we will ever do is regain control of the government. The instant we do, Trump goes on trial. We CANNOT afford to 'let it slip for national unity' again. He must be punished, and he must go to jail. I don't care if its 20 years from now and the man is 99. I want him, and his whole family, in federal prison.
I mean we've got the whole Russia conspiracy, we've got obstruction of justice, we've got conspiracy to defraud the US/commit offense, abuse of power (all his hotels and using Mar a Lago for access)...
If Trump wasn't being protected by his own party, there are a shitload of crimes he's dead to rights on.
This needs to break the republican party, the mistake in 1974 was to let the same people stay in charge when they were complicit of the crimes.
Maybe it will happen anyway since it seems like a lot of young leadership is retiring this year, but I want organizational blood in the streets.
Cohen getting guilty verdicts is good, great even, but it's possible because he isn't protected by politics. It's not nothing, but it isn't going to save the Republic.
The only thing that will do that is if enough people agree that what Trump and Cohen did was so wrong that they will vote for people who will void that political armor.
Cohen getting guilty verdicts is good, great even, but it's possible because he isn't protected by politics. It's not nothing, but it isn't going to save the Republic.
The only thing that will do that is if enough people agree that what Trump and Cohen did was so wrong that they will vote for people who will void that political armor.
It might discourage other white wealthy non-political untouchables from wanting to get anywhere near him going forward. That's not a bad thing.
OnTheLastCastlelet's keep it haimish for the peripateticRegistered Userregular
Trump's Yelp review style tweet today about how bad of a lawyer Cohen is was the most unintentional piece of comedy I've seen come out of this. I laughed for a few minutes straight. I'd stop then just start laughing again.
I really needed it. Check it out if you haven't seen it.
+5
Options
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
The idea of oh I’m not gonna talk because it’s a perjury trap is so offensive
You’re our fucking President
You answer to us
There is significant evidence you’ve committed crimes and you’re going to submit to questioning about those crimes like any other citizen in this circumstance
This isn’t about trapping Trump in some kind of technicality leading to impeachment—as if we didn’t have about 35 separate grounds for that anyway—it’s about how Trump is a public servant and therefore accountable to the people.
+30
Options
ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I mean we've got the whole Russia conspiracy, we've got obstruction of justice, we've got conspiracy to defraud the US/commit offense, abuse of power (all his hotels and using Mar a Lago for access)...
If Trump wasn't being protected by his own party, there are a shitload of crimes he's dead to rights on.
And we must remember this moment. In reality, we wont impeach Trump, and the best we will ever do is regain control of the government. The instant we do, Trump goes on trial. We CANNOT afford to 'let it slip for national unity' again. He must be punished, and he must go to jail. I don't care if its 20 years from now and the man is 99. I want him, and his whole family, in federal prison.
Except for Barron and Tiffany. They don’t seem to be mixed up in any of this. The rest of them seem to be a pack of criminals, just like dear old Dad.
Posts
everyone knows trump is a criminal, but the side that counts (currently) doesn't care
he doesn't need to wriggle out of this because thanks to a corrupt gop being in charge of everything, he will face no consequences
I know it's said a lot, but he's really got the worst fucking lawyers. He clearly doesn't even understand what part the crime is.
*accused of robbing a bank*
*argues he had an account at that bank*
Trump loses that deniability when Giuliani specifically mentions that this strategy was intentional on TV (with the cover of, "Everybody does it!", leading to Giuliani being fired from his law firm) and also Cohen recorded the conversations with Trump telling him to do those things.
Trump can change his story as much as he wants, which is incredibly frustrating. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if he ever winds up under oath.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
"You want to cooperate and tell the truth? Here's a chance to do just that!"
"He thought he was making a withdrawal."
"You just handed me a copy of his demand note."
Never forget that Guiliani had exit chances at almost every step (they got worse and less convincing each time, but they were there, he could have attempted some kind of damage control), and he kept going left, like somebody stubbornly trying to pick the "No" option in a Zelda game no matter how many times Sahasrahla repeats himself. This isn't just a self inflicted wound. This is a self inflicted scrape that he damn near opened up into a full amputation.
Trump wouldn't give Cohen a pardon anymore anyway
I expect zero things to change if he ever winds up under oath.
He will just adlib and lie as he goes along. It's what he does all the time. It's why Guliani considers him being brought to testify as a "perjury trap" because the dude can't help but fucking lie about everything.
"You can't ask him to tell the truth! He'd obviously lie, and that's on YOU for trying to force him to not lie!"
under oath is what matters, though. It's why Clinton had actual problems... not because he lied to the public or because he coerced a woman into sex acts, but because he lied about it under oath. Luckily for him, the Senate was partisan enough to view a little light perjury as not meeting the Constitutional standard for removal...
I mean, it shouldn't be lost in here that police love to get people to accidently talk themselves into trouble and a lot of innocent people get fucked over by this.
I just don't care in this case
Not really. Nixon's articles of impeachment included a section on misleading the public.
pleasepaypreacher.net
As part of a clear fishing expedition? Yeah, no, probably not.
Yeah but truth isn't truth!
If we tell you the truth you'll just claim it isn't, and sadly there's no objective way to know what the real truth is!
The funniest thing about all this, to me, is how readily Republicans accept moral relativism when it's one of their own.
Specifically:
This was within the context of obstruction of justice in the Watergate break in.
Someone might try, but while impeaching and removing a president over perjury is technically possible it ain't, like, likely even with an opposition held Congress. Now the implied complicity in a felony? You bet your ass if comes out there's smoking guns in congress and the house ever flips democrat.
It's more about the other people implicated in a Trump Foundation investigation, including the Donald Trump, his three oldest children, and his son in law, not being pardonable in New York state matters.
Isn't it being paid by Trump despite being campaign expenses precisely what makes it an illegal campaign expense?
No. It's Trump's campaign and candidates can contribute as much of their own money as they wish.
Not documenting it is a crime but a lesser and far more common one.
Yes. The only way any of this is legal (for Trump, anyway) is if (a) Trump did not order it, (b) did not know about it, and (c) did not use his own money for it, because we know the expenditure was not reported as it should have been.
And if he conspired with somebody else to break the law, that's a whole other crime in and of itself.
Of course, we have all literally heard an audio recording of Trump (a) ordering it, (b) knowing about it, (c) offering to pay it in cash before hastily being told NO by Cohen and (d) conspiring with his "lawyer" to break the law.
I feel like it's insane that he isn't wearing an orange jumpsuit right now, even knowing the political reality.
NY state gets the Trump kids
SDNY gets Trump
Mueller left with just Jared, Manafort and Rohrabacher
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Given Cohen's guilty plea, the government presumably has evidence showing that isn't the case
It would also be legal if it were documented as a campaign expenditure.
Yes. It makes it an illegal donation from Essential Consulting LLC.
[That he solicited and hid]
Even if all they did was fail to document the donation, it's still a crime to intentionally conspire to commit offense or defraud the United States!
It's literally a crime with a potential 5-year prison sentence, and that doesn't even take into account any of the other shit he's pulled.
It'd be amusing if once Mueller finishes, nobody is left. So, while the Right has been trying to disparage his investigation this whole time, he has just been a smokescreen for all these other cases to railroad the felons.
And he rides out to the sunset saying, "That's how you play 25d chess, mf'ers!" and opens his investigation folder and it reads: "Couldn't find anything".
Indeed, the whole 'its not a crime' defence is for when you give $10000 of your own money to your campaign to help with paying for some TV commercials and forget to declare it. If you talk to someone and they say, "We've got to make this payoff ASAP or the public will find out about your affairs and you'll never win the election!" and you pay with your own money then the defence doesn't work.
If Trump wasn't being protected by his own party, there are a shitload of crimes he's dead to rights on.
And we must remember this moment. In reality, we wont impeach Trump, and the best we will ever do is regain control of the government. The instant we do, Trump goes on trial. We CANNOT afford to 'let it slip for national unity' again. He must be punished, and he must go to jail. I don't care if its 20 years from now and the man is 99. I want him, and his whole family, in federal prison.
This needs to break the republican party, the mistake in 1974 was to let the same people stay in charge when they were complicit of the crimes.
Maybe it will happen anyway since it seems like a lot of young leadership is retiring this year, but I want organizational blood in the streets.
The only thing that will do that is if enough people agree that what Trump and Cohen did was so wrong that they will vote for people who will void that political armor.
It might discourage other white wealthy non-political untouchables from wanting to get anywhere near him going forward. That's not a bad thing.
I really needed it. Check it out if you haven't seen it.
You’re our fucking President
You answer to us
There is significant evidence you’ve committed crimes and you’re going to submit to questioning about those crimes like any other citizen in this circumstance
This isn’t about trapping Trump in some kind of technicality leading to impeachment—as if we didn’t have about 35 separate grounds for that anyway—it’s about how Trump is a public servant and therefore accountable to the people.
Where the hell were these assholes two fucking years ago?
Who? New York State or the AP? Because I'm pretty sure the answer to both is 'White collar crime is not a crime!'
Schneiderman was apparently being blackmailed over the shit that got him fired.
Except for Barron and Tiffany. They don’t seem to be mixed up in any of this. The rest of them seem to be a pack of criminals, just like dear old Dad.