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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Al_wat wrote: »
    Is it known if Bethesda is making any effort to scrap/overhaul/rework their Gamebryo engine?

    Like are they using it again in their next Elder Scrolls game?

    edit: I guess their version is called "Creation Engine" now
    The engine doesn't have much in common with the engine it evolved from.

    A lot of the problems are more due to Bethesda than the engine. The face problems have pretty much nothing to do with Gamebryo given that Bethesda used FaceGen for that.

    This is from two years ago but is still relevant:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/4os0fj/clearing_misconceptions_on_netimmerse_gamebryo/
    To begin, let's review some history. Morrowind was originally built on NetImmerse, an engine that saw many other uses in some very different games, like Dark Age of Camelot and Freedom Force. In 2004, after Numerical Design Limited, the engine's creator, merged with another company, the engine was rebranded. At this time, Bethesda still licensed what was then called Gamebryo, modifying it further and releasing Oblivion in 2006. By 2008, when production on Skyrim began, the engine had been modified to the point that it was mostly Bethesda's code running in a framework that NDL had designed; hence it was renamed the Creation Engine. By this point, Gamebryo, now owned by Gamebase Co. had evolved to Gamebryo Lightspeed, an entirely seperate engine that powered things like Warhammer Online and... Epic Mickey, of all things. It's a really diverse set of tools, and it has been from the start. Anybody that's played DAoC and Freedom Force can attest to just how different those games were to Morrowind in every concievable way, and yet they were built on the same engine.
    Underneath all this are a few key architectural changes that allow new things, like the changing of cell sizes from Morrowind to Oblivion and the change to 64-bit with Fallout 4. Gameplay actions like how combat and spells work; dual wielding or no, are generally "hardcoded" game-specific alterations to the architecture that are baked into each individual release to support the desired gameplay. Virtually everything--even the type of game made--is a custom framework built on top of the basic skeleton provided by Gamebryo. Notably, the engine has powered MMO's, a super hero RTS game, platformers, and many other completely dissimilar experiences. Bethesda took that initial structure and rewrote it, bit by bit, into their own set of tools, and at some point it was so divergent that it wasn't even the IP of Gamebase Co. anymore.

    Most problems people have with "Gamebryo" are largely part of these plugged-in aspects of the engine, or portions Bethesda rewrote, and are not endemic to it. Some of these carry over game-to-game, as not all of the code may be rewritten between releases. There is no such thing as "Gamebryo animations," or "Gamebryo faces." I've even heard people say "Gamebryo graphics", as if Skyrim and Morrowind share exactly the same graphical suite. The truth is, things like animation, dialogue, combat, and graphics are all solveable problems within the existing framework. In fact, one reason the games are so moddable is due to its highly modular nature, which extends from the developer-end all the way to the consumer.

    However, there are some issues that cannot be solved. Cell-based loading is here to stay, as is a hard limit on how many NPCs can be displayed without a massive performance impact, due to how NPC meta-data is handled (NPCs are functionally identical to players with individual skills, inventories, and equipment, which must be kept track of every frame; the version of NetImmerse that Morrowind was built on was originally envisioned as an MMO engine before its usage broadened). Many engine operations are tied to framerate due to how event scheduling works, such as physics calculation. A heightmap-based terrain generator, which only allows for a single axis of terrain modification, means that things like caves and cliffs are very difficult to build without the use of static assets (which are more expensive, computationally). There are many more things like that, but the reality is that the engine has limitations that cannot easily be circumvented.

    An engine thus, is the sum of all of these parts. NetImmerse and Gamebryo and the Creation Engine are as different as they are similar, and it is indeed very justifiable to call them different engines. The only things that remain are a few vestigial bones. The IP that Bethesda originally licensed has been gradually replaced, piece-by-piece, until it's now its own animal, but many of the bones are showing their age. Some of those bones could be replaced perhaps, but at a considerable effort. There is a point when software just needs a clean-slate rewrite before it becomes too unweildly and burdened by legacy code to function efficiently or predictably.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    godmode wrote: »
    I put some quality time in with Nier Automata last night cause my boss kept gushing about it and I never finished it last time I played. I was reminded right away just how dang good the combat feels. I just wish the camera weren't such a chore.
    Anyway maybe I'll actually finish it this time.

    How many times did you finish it last time?

  • godmodegodmode Southeast JapanRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    godmode wrote: »
    I put some quality time in with Nier Automata last night cause my boss kept gushing about it and I never finished it last time I played. I was reminded right away just how dang good the combat feels. I just wish the camera weren't such a chore.
    Anyway maybe I'll actually finish it this time.

    How many times did you finish it last time?

    Only once...
    I died from eating a fish
    I never progressed past the desert. Played about 8 hours before.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    godmode wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    godmode wrote: »
    I put some quality time in with Nier Automata last night cause my boss kept gushing about it and I never finished it last time I played. I was reminded right away just how dang good the combat feels. I just wish the camera weren't such a chore.
    Anyway maybe I'll actually finish it this time.

    How many times did you finish it last time?

    Only once...
    I died from eating a fish
    I never progressed past the desert. Played about 8 hours before.

    Alright, well just know that the game isn't actually over when the credits roll once.

  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Ugh, Nier: Automata is so goddamn fantastic

    what's Yoko Taro up to atm?

    el_vicio on
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  • godmodegodmode Southeast JapanRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    godmode wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    godmode wrote: »
    I put some quality time in with Nier Automata last night cause my boss kept gushing about it and I never finished it last time I played. I was reminded right away just how dang good the combat feels. I just wish the camera weren't such a chore.
    Anyway maybe I'll actually finish it this time.

    How many times did you finish it last time?

    Only once...
    I died from eating a fish
    I never progressed past the desert. Played about 8 hours before.

    Alright, well just know that the game isn't actually over when the credits roll once.

    Yeah, I've absorbed some expectations back when it was still super popular and I was the only one not playing it.

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    it's weird how much people aggressively talk about "when the game ends it doesn't actually end" without just saying "Oh it's episodic."

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Episodic means something different with games though.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    it's weird how much people aggressively talk about "when the game ends it doesn't actually end" without just saying "Oh it's episodic."

    I wouldn't really consider it episodic in the way that people tend to think of episodic games, though?

    If you want an example of an "episodic game" that came out as a single product, look at something like Alan Wake or Until Dawn.

    DarkPrimus on
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular

    Maia - November 23rd

    Game has some mixed reviews.

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    It would be valuable to expand the definition for the ability to talk critically about game structure. Nier’s structure is a short, multi-episode miniseries

    liEt3nH.png
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    I think of it as being like a [number]-volume anthology
    the number is three

    Wyborn on
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  • JedocJedoc In the scuppers with the staggers and jagsRegistered User regular
    I don't believe in any of that fancy episodic stuff. When the credits roll, I'm out. That's why MGSV is my favorite twenty-minute game.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    It would be valuable to expand the definition for the ability to talk critically about game structure. Nier’s structure is a short, multi-episode miniseries

    I don't think six hours, minimum, is "short."

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Short in episode count

    liEt3nH.png
  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    el_vicio wrote: »
    Ugh, Nier: Automata is so goddamn fantastic

    what's Yoko Taro up to atm?

    Probably drinking

  • LalaboxLalabox Registered User regular
    mini-series

  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    I'm playing the remastered Dark Souls on Steam as I work through my backlog. How often can I expect to fall to my death in Blighttown? We talking dozens or hundreds of times?

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Baidol wrote: »
    I'm playing the remastered Dark Souls on Steam as I work through my backlog. How often can I expect to fall to my death in Blighttown? We talking dozens or hundreds of times?

    Not too often compared to how often you'll get fucked by toxic status.

  • LalaboxLalabox Registered User regular
    blighttown is legitimately my favourite area of dark souls. It's the most fun challenge, because even if you know what you are doing, pulling it off right is still hard

    whereas a lot of the rest of it gets turned into knowing the exact aggro range of every enemy to pull them into one on one fights

  • VeagleVeagle Registered User regular
    McHoger wrote: »
    So I finished my time with the Neverwinter Nights premium modules and had some thoughts.

    Pirates of the Sword Coast: This was a lot of fun. It was pretty light hearted had a couple of neat twists in it that kept things interesting. It had the only henchmen I've liked outside of Deekin. It really made me want a version of this that was beefed up and longer.

    Darkness Over Daggerford: This game tries to mimic Baldur's Gate in structure, having a fairly straight forward main quest with loads and loads of side quests littered around. This one was also pretty light hearted. I ended up enjoying it quite a bit.

    Wyvern Crown of Cormyr: It tries to do a bunch of interesting ideas but ended up falling a bit flat. WCoC goes for a very medieval knight theme in all it's plot and items. It's the only module where you can have mounts. There's a fairly complicated jousting mini-game. But the story ended up being really slow and quest were vaguely designed. Finally, I lost a couple of hours worth of time when my save got corrupted so I just gave up on the whole thing.

    I ended this whole thing having a much higher opinion of NWN. I definately recommend picking it up. Play Shadows of Undrentide, Hordes of the Underdark, Pirates of the Sword Coast, Darkness Over Daggerford and skip everything else.

    I was going to recommend you try NWN 2 next, but apparently, it got taken off Steam. Guess you can still get it from GoG though.

    steam_sig.png
  • McHogerMcHoger Registered User regular
    Veagle wrote: »
    McHoger wrote: »
    So I finished my time with the Neverwinter Nights premium modules and had some thoughts.

    Pirates of the Sword Coast: This was a lot of fun. It was pretty light hearted had a couple of neat twists in it that kept things interesting. It had the only henchmen I've liked outside of Deekin. It really made me want a version of this that was beefed up and longer.

    Darkness Over Daggerford: This game tries to mimic Baldur's Gate in structure, having a fairly straight forward main quest with loads and loads of side quests littered around. This one was also pretty light hearted. I ended up enjoying it quite a bit.

    Wyvern Crown of Cormyr: It tries to do a bunch of interesting ideas but ended up falling a bit flat. WCoC goes for a very medieval knight theme in all it's plot and items. It's the only module where you can have mounts. There's a fairly complicated jousting mini-game. But the story ended up being really slow and quest were vaguely designed. Finally, I lost a couple of hours worth of time when my save got corrupted so I just gave up on the whole thing.

    I ended this whole thing having a much higher opinion of NWN. I definately recommend picking it up. Play Shadows of Undrentide, Hordes of the Underdark, Pirates of the Sword Coast, Darkness Over Daggerford and skip everything else.

    I was going to recommend you try NWN 2 next, but apparently, it got taken off Steam. Guess you can still get it from GoG though.

    I've tried to play it in the past but I stopped about half-way through the campaign for reasons I no longer remember. I have been thinking about since I've been playing through the first. If nothing else, Mask of the Betrayer sounds like a thing I need to play.

  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    The voice acting in NWN absolutely destroyed my interest in playing it more than a few hours :(

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    The whole project felt very underdeveloped from what I saw of its promotional materials. I get the feeling it was a small team doing their best but just didn't have the framework to support the game people expect, so I imagine there's a lot of frayed and incomplete edges.

    Mixed reviews but notes about bland and repetitive environments and frustrating combat is enough for me to tap out at full price

    I hope it keeps the series alive and I'll check it out on sale

    Prohass on
  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    The random loot was one of the weaker parts of Darksiders 2 and it's a bit disappointing to hear that it's also in 3.

  • VeagleVeagle Registered User regular
    McHoger wrote: »
    Veagle wrote: »
    McHoger wrote: »
    So I finished my time with the Neverwinter Nights premium modules and had some thoughts.

    Pirates of the Sword Coast: This was a lot of fun. It was pretty light hearted had a couple of neat twists in it that kept things interesting. It had the only henchmen I've liked outside of Deekin. It really made me want a version of this that was beefed up and longer.

    Darkness Over Daggerford: This game tries to mimic Baldur's Gate in structure, having a fairly straight forward main quest with loads and loads of side quests littered around. This one was also pretty light hearted. I ended up enjoying it quite a bit.

    Wyvern Crown of Cormyr: It tries to do a bunch of interesting ideas but ended up falling a bit flat. WCoC goes for a very medieval knight theme in all it's plot and items. It's the only module where you can have mounts. There's a fairly complicated jousting mini-game. But the story ended up being really slow and quest were vaguely designed. Finally, I lost a couple of hours worth of time when my save got corrupted so I just gave up on the whole thing.

    I ended this whole thing having a much higher opinion of NWN. I definately recommend picking it up. Play Shadows of Undrentide, Hordes of the Underdark, Pirates of the Sword Coast, Darkness Over Daggerford and skip everything else.

    I was going to recommend you try NWN 2 next, but apparently, it got taken off Steam. Guess you can still get it from GoG though.

    I've tried to play it in the past but I stopped about half-way through the campaign for reasons I no longer remember. I have been thinking about since I've been playing through the first. If nothing else, Mask of the Betrayer sounds like a thing I need to play.

    I can totally understand giving up on the base campaign. There's a lot of stuff I really like in it, but there's also a whole lot of uninteresting filler.

    Mask of the Betrayer is a real unique experience though, so I'd still recommend giving that a try. I don't think it requires much knowledge from the main game either.

    Except for the super shitty ending of NWN 2, which MotB mostly manages to salvage.
    After the finale boss fight, where most games would give you some kind of resolution and tell you how you saved the world, NWN 2 just has the cave you were in collapse on you, and no one ever hears of you again. The end!

    steam_sig.png
  • Indie WinterIndie Winter die Krähe Rudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered User regular
    I just look at the Darksiders game and I can't help but wonder what that kinda gameplay would be like in the Legacy of Kain setting

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  • MrGrimoireMrGrimoire Pixflare Registered User regular
    I tried to play Darksiders 2 Deathinitive edition to remember what was up before 3, and it's such a buggy mess even basic traversal is impossible. Refunded it, because while I'm willing to put up with some bugs, ones that makes movement impossible in some situations just isn't ok.

    Which is sad, because I really like the original Darksiders.

  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Jesus Christ the $400 Darksiders 3 Apocalypse Edition is almost four feet long.

    Well, I guess if you have the money to casually afford that then you probably live in a place with the space to put it somewhere anyway.

    Donnicton on
  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    So is there a website that has reliable video game sales figures? Due to the announcement of Aliens: Blackout I came across a thing that said that Aliens: Colonial Marines sold more copies than Alien: Isolation.
    That cannot be true, can it? Tell me it isn't!

    ouxsemmi8rm9.png

  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    McHoger wrote: »
    So I finished my time with the Neverwinter Nights premium modules and had some thoughts.

    Pirates of the Sword Coast: This was a lot of fun. It was pretty light hearted had a couple of neat twists in it that kept things interesting. It had the only henchmen I've liked outside of Deekin. It really made me want a version of this that was beefed up and longer.

    Darkness Over Daggerford: This game tries to mimic Baldur's Gate in structure, having a fairly straight forward main quest with loads and loads of side quests littered around. This one was also pretty light hearted. I ended up enjoying it quite a bit.

    Wyvern Crown of Cormyr: It tries to do a bunch of interesting ideas but ended up falling a bit flat. WCoC goes for a very medieval knight theme in all it's plot and items. It's the only module where you can have mounts. There's a fairly complicated jousting mini-game. But the story ended up being really slow and quest were vaguely designed. Finally, I lost a couple of hours worth of time when my save got corrupted so I just gave up on the whole thing.

    I ended this whole thing having a much higher opinion of NWN. I definately recommend picking it up. Play Shadows of Undrentide, Hordes of the Underdark, Pirates of the Sword Coast, Darkness Over Daggerford and skip everything else.

    I remember liking the player modules from Adam Miller, Stefan Gagne, and the Penultima series. I think. It's been awhile.

  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Still getting Darksiders 3 at full price. I've been waiting for this one for a while and I need to see what's become of it for myself, not what people who aren't me or even familiar with the story think of it. If it's bad, then I return it to Amazon and I'm out nothing but some time. If it's good though, I'll have another enjoyable Darksiders experience through a strange and wonderful interpretation of the Biblical apocalypse gone awry.

  • VeagleVeagle Registered User regular
    Oh yeah. I remember liking Penultima too.

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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    Veagle wrote: »
    Oh yeah. I remember liking Penultima too.

    Penultima starts kinda slow, but picks up steam. And then Penultima Rerolled is top-tier from the jump.

  • SorceSorce Not ThereRegistered User regular
    el_vicio wrote: »
    So is there a website that has reliable video game sales figures? Due to the announcement of Aliens: Blackout I came across a thing that said that Aliens: Colonial Marines sold more copies than Alien: Isolation.
    That cannot be true, can it? Tell me it isn't!
    Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

    sig.gif
  • FishmanFishman Put your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain. Registered User regular
    I've picked up Life is Strange and Into the Breach as sale purchases. I already had lined up a 4-day weekend starting Thursday for kicking back and doing nothing but game and laze, so a sale to set that up is perfect. Edith Finch has left me with a Pacific Northwest mood I'm hoping Life is Strange will itch.

    X-Com LP Thread I, II, III, IV, V
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  • cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    I would definitely believe Colonial Marines outsold Isolation.

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  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Colonial Marines is the best-selling Alien(s) game, much like Absolution is the best-selling Hitman game.

  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    el_vicio wrote: »
    So is there a website that has reliable video game sales figures? Due to the announcement of Aliens: Blackout I came across a thing that said that Aliens: Colonial Marines sold more copies than Alien: Isolation.
    That cannot be true, can it? Tell me it isn't!

    Western publishers generally jealously guard their sales figures except when it's time to brag about how great their sales were, so there aren't really any accurate public ones. The only ones that could remotely possibly be accurate are investor group reports like NPD Group or SuperData which are generally not available to the public(and when they are, you have to pay hundreds or thousands just to look at them).

This discussion has been closed.