daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Equal Rites and Sourcery always do feel a bit off for me too. Something weird about the early incarnation of Unseen University somehow not meshing into the later version as smoothly as some of the other changes to other things worked. Still, Esk as the main character is a potential hook for her.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Most reference-heavy DW books I've read, I've read them first and then gained a new appreciation for them after learning about the references afterwards.
I learned a lot more about movies after reading Moving Pictures.
I read Macbeth after Wyrd Sisters.
I already knew a fair bit about Buddy Holly and Rock & Roll before reading Soul Music, but didn't watch Blues Brothers until about ten years later, making 'mission from Glod' the record holder for longest time it took me to get a DW joke.
I saw Phantom of the Opera about a year after reading Maskerade, and ended up just wanting a musical of the book instead.
edit: I've still never seen Les Mis, and apparently there's a lot of references to that in Night Watch? I don't know them and it's still my favourite.
klemming on
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
My first was Hogfather, and then the first I owned was Men at Arms
Jam Warrior's kid is going to enter the glorious work of retroactive recognition whichever books she starts with - like when I first learned that selachophobia was the fear of sharks, and then applied that knowledge to West Side Story
I started with Equal Rites at roughly her age, and it's a female-led plot with cool magical scenes, which might appeal from a representation point of view. Mort is a good second choice, though
edit: I've still never seen Les Mis, and apparently there's a lot of references to that in Night Watch? I don't know them and it's still my favourite.
Ehh, probably more references to the book than the musical. The book is a lot heavier than the musical (which is already a fucking tear-jerker)
You can also add Lords & Ladies to the list of reference heavy books, it's basically a beat by beat retelling of A Midsummer Night's Dream set in fucking Lancre instead of Athens.
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For a 12 year old Nation would probably also work, as it has the young protagonist with a lot of the Hero's Journey basic setup, but combines it with a bit more consideration and musings on society than in the Tiffany Achings books.
I'd also consider all the books with the more modern/toned down covers, as the old school Kirby covers are just so over the top.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
You give them those kirby covers and they will like them or disown them by god.
No mercy for blood relations!
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I already knew a fair bit about Buddy Holly and Rock & Roll before reading Soul Music, but didn't watch Blues Brothers until about ten years later, making 'mission from Glod' the record holder for longest time it took me to get a DW joke.
See also the diner scene - four fried rats and some coke
Plus a Marx Brothers reference (two hard boiled eggs) into the bargain
Maybe you could start her off on some of Pratchett's non-discworld YA writings? To start her off easy. There is Nation and the Nome trilogy that are really good, and much more accessible for young readers IMO.
I still feel like the Johnny Maxwell trilogy contains the most realistic teenagers I've ever read. Fictional teens are generally far wiser than their age would suggest (when they're the protagonists) or even dumber than I remember being (which would be an achievement). But these are alternately smart and stupid, going from discussing what would happen if you spontaneously appear inside a wall to arguing about what constitutes a 'fridge atom' ("the smallest possible particle of a fridge") in the course of the same conversation, which is exactly how I remember being as a teenager.
There was also the description of their group that made me feel incredibly seen: Not exactly a gang, but what you got when you shook a crisp packet and all the little bits end up in the corner.
It's Terry Pratchett at his best, but also it's set away from Ankh-Morpork with an original cast of characters so you don't need to know the backstory to enjoy it.
Maybe it's too far away from regular Discworld to be a proper Discworld book, but as a stand-alone introduction to the setting I think it's a good place to start.
I would have thought that Monstrous Regiment would be one of the worst to drop into, because it has a LOT of backstory.
City Guard books - Vimes as anti-authoritatian, Angua as werewolf.
The Truth - William de Worde as newspaper editor. Otto as Blue Ribboner (that may even stretch back to Reaper Man with the Fresh Start Club).
Moist/Guards - The Clacks.
Witches - Igors (I believe Carpe Jugulum was the first instance that collected al the Igor tropes, but could be wrong on that one).
It trades on a LOT of context set by previous Discworld books, possibly more than any other. About the only storyline it doesn't lean on is Rincewind/Unseen University.
Also, my first Discworld book was Feet of Clay. So I didn't have any background on any established characters. But who they were was certainly made clear within the text. Monstrous Regiment may be pretty deep in the lore, but it's hardly impenetrable.
Lastly, due to early installment weirdness, I would probably recommend starting with Guards, Guards! where A-M is more properly established and major characters are as we expect them to be.
I'm a bit surprised at no mention of Witches Abroad. The references are all to classic faerie tales, which should land with a 12 year old. There is a little continuity with Wyrd Sisters but nothing really important. Most important it has so many great scenes in it.
Also, my first Discworld book was Feet of Clay. So I didn't have any background on any established characters. But who they were was certainly made clear within the text. Monstrous Regiment may be pretty deep in the lore, but it's hardly impenetrable.
My second favorite stand-alone is Pyramids.
Oh for sure - "one of the worst" is a VERY low bar, PTerry's writing style is VERY easy to get into (with the possible exception of Snuff or Shephard's Crown).
It's like saying "blueberry pie is the worst tasting of all the pies" - it's still goddamn delicious because it's BLUEBERRY PIE.
'Less advisable is better than 'one of the worst. The deep lore with the A-M characters isn't fully necessary. It's kind of fun reading about Vimes et al from the perspective of people who have no frame of reference.
But, since they are side characters, how they are presented doesn't really require expansive pre-reading. Though I still wouldn't recommend it for a first Discworld book.
Mine too, high five! Despite it not being the first Watch book, I did get a handle on the characters pretty quickly. The later the books, the more material they're built on naturally, and the more it assumes you're aware of it all. One of the foot notes even gives a brief summary of past events and ends on the line "but you know all this." Pretty presumptuous, Sir Pratchett!
...though he was right.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Mort, Soul Music, Sourcery, and Faust Eric.
Those were the four Discworld books in my high school library.
You could start with a non-Discworld Pratchett book to ease them into it. I tore through the Nome and Johnny Maxwell books before I ever touched the Discworld ones.
Witches abroad I think was my introduction (around 9 or 10 I think), Guards Guards! is the starting point I'd usually suggest for adults but it was my White Whale in the library for quite some time.
Honestly the stories hold up regardless of the references, they're more easter eggs than the real jokes. I think I would pitch the main threads - Witches/Watch/Wizard/Wee Free Men and see what takes her fancy.
Children get eaten in fairy tales, there's worse language on the news and more sex in Harry Potter, MtG/DnD and other YA fiction than Discworld*.
Don't worry about their place in the overal narrative. That just gives a reason to reread them, which is hardly a problem with these books. I'd even suggest dablling down a few paths, then going back to reread in chronological order before starting a latter book connected across two sets of characters. You want the books to have the right kind of dogeared and lived in look before you get to The Truth and Going Postal.
*Do not start with the Joy of Snacks, as that breaks the whole "references not needed to get the joke" rule. They'd need to read Masquerade first.
For a 12 year old I think The Amazing Maurice And His Educated Rodents is perfect, because it's set in the Discworld universe, but isn't strongly tied into the meta universe so you don't need any pre-existing knowledge, and it won't spoil much if anything either.
For a 12 year old I think The Amazing Maurice And His Educated Rodents is perfect, because it's set in the Discworld universe, but isn't strongly tied into the meta universe so you don't need any pre-existing knowledge, and it won't spoil much if anything either.
There's also a movie
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I love how regardless of who's asking we're still recommending all the different PTerry books anyway.
The thing is, I don't think it actually matters. They are all good books, and Pratchett knew how to make each book fit into a timeline while still being single discrete works. You may get more of a character or inside joke, but you still get a satisfying story with The Truth, for example. There are a few books where you may miss out on some context (e.g. The Fifth Elephant gives you some of it, but watching Vimes grow I think enhances the book to a great extent)
Night Watch is probably the book that benefits most from reading all the preceding books in the series.
It's OK as a standalone, but as a capper to Vimes' story it is sublime.
Ironically it's the one I got a friend into the series with.
It wasn't intentional, she just asked which my favourite was, and then bought it online before I could add that a better one to start with might be-.
It still worked out, as her follow up email made clear (including establishing exactly when it got it's hook in):
Subject: Gilt by association
Body: You bastard, you know how many of these books there are?!
Night Watch was the first Discworld book I read. Terry was great with making each book in the series stand alone while also world-building and rewarding readers from previous books. He was a genius, basically.
I'm a fan of Guards Guards as a starting point. First cause I think it's one of the best written books of the earlier stuff, and because there's almost certainly a character you will like.
And second, because it introduces a character that is new to Ankh-Morpork, and through him, you get some learning of the city and it's peoples.
And over the course of the City Watch books, you get to see progression for most of the characters.
Night Watch was the first Discworld book I read. Terry was great with making each book in the series stand alone while also world-building and rewarding readers from previous books. He was a genius, basically.
Same, it was mind blowing to me. I think it’s the only book I’ve ever immediately started rereading when I finished it.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I did that with all of his books but sheperds crown, cos I started crying after I closed the book and couldnt pick it up again.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Night Watch was the first Discworld book I read. Terry was great with making each book in the series stand alone while also world-building and rewarding readers from previous books. He was a genius, basically.
Like P G Wodehouse, he made it look very easy and simple. But as the legions of imitators who have fallen very far short of both authors' style will generally admit: it's not. Nothing is as difficult to pull off as amiable comedy. And amiable comedy that also makes you want to smash the patriarchy and send the oligarchs to the tumbril is very, very difficult indeed.
V1m on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I read Feet of Clay 4 times in quick succession because I only had it out of the library for a limited time
I kept on noticing little details about the mystery that I haven't before, and chuckling at different turns of phrase
Every reread of a Pratchett book reveals new layers of the onion to me, especially going away and reading/experiencing more and coming back.
Also, like onions, they sometimes make you cry.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Only concrete advice I'd give is maybe start with something that has a strongly upbeat ending. I love Small Gods, but that last page always gets dust in my eye and I'm not sure if starting off with that book would have slowed me up on reading a second book. It really hit the feels.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I mean they kind of almost all kick you right inna feels except for maybe the first 3. Some of them start out doing that, do it plenty more in the middle and leave your feels pretty thoroughly kicked by the end. Snuff. I Shall Wear Midnight. The Last Heroes.
The Rincewind ones are probably the ones with the lowest feelkick quotient, probably because Rincewind is the protagonist most like most of us, and therefore the one we care for the least.
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I learned a lot more about movies after reading Moving Pictures.
I read Macbeth after Wyrd Sisters.
I already knew a fair bit about Buddy Holly and Rock & Roll before reading Soul Music, but didn't watch Blues Brothers until about ten years later, making 'mission from Glod' the record holder for longest time it took me to get a DW joke.
I saw Phantom of the Opera about a year after reading Maskerade, and ended up just wanting a musical of the book instead.
edit: I've still never seen Les Mis, and apparently there's a lot of references to that in Night Watch? I don't know them and it's still my favourite.
I started with Equal Rites at roughly her age, and it's a female-led plot with cool magical scenes, which might appeal from a representation point of view. Mort is a good second choice, though
You can also add Lords & Ladies to the list of reference heavy books, it's basically a beat by beat retelling of A Midsummer Night's Dream set in fucking Lancre instead of Athens.
--
For a 12 year old Nation would probably also work, as it has the young protagonist with a lot of the Hero's Journey basic setup, but combines it with a bit more consideration and musings on society than in the Tiffany Achings books.
I'd also consider all the books with the more modern/toned down covers, as the old school Kirby covers are just so over the top.
No mercy for blood relations!
See also the diner scene - four fried rats and some coke
Plus a Marx Brothers reference (two hard boiled eggs) into the bargain
There was also the description of their group that made me feel incredibly seen: Not exactly a gang, but what you got when you shook a crisp packet and all the little bits end up in the corner.
It's Terry Pratchett at his best, but also it's set away from Ankh-Morpork with an original cast of characters so you don't need to know the backstory to enjoy it.
Maybe it's too far away from regular Discworld to be a proper Discworld book, but as a stand-alone introduction to the setting I think it's a good place to start.
City Guard books - Vimes as anti-authoritatian, Angua as werewolf.
The Truth - William de Worde as newspaper editor. Otto as Blue Ribboner (that may even stretch back to Reaper Man with the Fresh Start Club).
Moist/Guards - The Clacks.
Witches - Igors (I believe Carpe Jugulum was the first instance that collected al the Igor tropes, but could be wrong on that one).
It trades on a LOT of context set by previous Discworld books, possibly more than any other. About the only storyline it doesn't lean on is Rincewind/Unseen University.
My second favorite stand-alone is Pyramids.
It's like saying "blueberry pie is the worst tasting of all the pies" - it's still goddamn delicious because it's BLUEBERRY PIE.
But, since they are side characters, how they are presented doesn't really require expansive pre-reading. Though I still wouldn't recommend it for a first Discworld book.
Mine too, high five! Despite it not being the first Watch book, I did get a handle on the characters pretty quickly. The later the books, the more material they're built on naturally, and the more it assumes you're aware of it all. One of the foot notes even gives a brief summary of past events and ends on the line "but you know all this." Pretty presumptuous, Sir Pratchett!
...though he was right.
Those were the four Discworld books in my high school library.
Carpet People
Honestly the stories hold up regardless of the references, they're more easter eggs than the real jokes. I think I would pitch the main threads - Witches/Watch/Wizard/Wee Free Men and see what takes her fancy.
Children get eaten in fairy tales, there's worse language on the news and more sex in Harry Potter, MtG/DnD and other YA fiction than Discworld*.
Don't worry about their place in the overal narrative. That just gives a reason to reread them, which is hardly a problem with these books. I'd even suggest dablling down a few paths, then going back to reread in chronological order before starting a latter book connected across two sets of characters. You want the books to have the right kind of dogeared and lived in look before you get to The Truth and Going Postal.
*Do not start with the Joy of Snacks, as that breaks the whole "references not needed to get the joke" rule. They'd need to read Masquerade first.
There's also a movie
The thing is, I don't think it actually matters. They are all good books, and Pratchett knew how to make each book fit into a timeline while still being single discrete works. You may get more of a character or inside joke, but you still get a satisfying story with The Truth, for example. There are a few books where you may miss out on some context (e.g. The Fifth Elephant gives you some of it, but watching Vimes grow I think enhances the book to a great extent)
It's OK as a standalone, but as a capper to Vimes' story it is sublime.
It wasn't intentional, she just asked which my favourite was, and then bought it online before I could add that a better one to start with might be-.
It still worked out, as her follow up email made clear (including establishing exactly when it got it's hook in):
And second, because it introduces a character that is new to Ankh-Morpork, and through him, you get some learning of the city and it's peoples.
And over the course of the City Watch books, you get to see progression for most of the characters.
Same, it was mind blowing to me. I think it’s the only book I’ve ever immediately started rereading when I finished it.
I kept on noticing little details about the mystery that I haven't before, and chuckling at different turns of phrase
Like P G Wodehouse, he made it look very easy and simple. But as the legions of imitators who have fallen very far short of both authors' style will generally admit: it's not. Nothing is as difficult to pull off as amiable comedy. And amiable comedy that also makes you want to smash the patriarchy and send the oligarchs to the tumbril is very, very difficult indeed.
Every reread of a Pratchett book reveals new layers of the onion to me, especially going away and reading/experiencing more and coming back.
Also, like onions, they sometimes make you cry.
The Rincewind ones are probably the ones with the lowest feelkick quotient, probably because Rincewind is the protagonist most like most of us, and therefore the one we care for the least.