I will remain on record as disapproving of candidates who run for a district position, focus on at-large issues, and campaign on slogans statutorily prohibited at the state level.
This is completely independent of my feelings on rent control; it's clearly not a panacea as we can see in SF/NYC, but that's as may be as long as it's explicitly prohibited by WA state. (https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=35.21.830) As for "Tax Amazon!" I have yet to see a coherent proposal on what comprises "Amazon" for these purposes, and how and what the tax should be collected on, and under what authority. (And I have FEELINGS about "well we should just do it anyway".)
"Tax Amazon" is a slogan for raising taxes on a whole host of companies. The government has every right to insutute, say, a head tax.
But that's not what they keep trying to implement. They keep explicitly trying to tax Amazon in specific. Come with a proposal that says "We want to do X via Y, affecting Z." That head tax, for instance, was fairly reasonable, and as I recall not stricken on any grounds other than "people went WAAAAAAH". When you tell me that we want to tax X company, I get twitchy, because I don't believe the government should be empowered to target a specific business for taxation. "Bob's Cheese and Bait has to pay 400% for reasons 'cause Fuck Bob, man." Specific industries, classes of business, companies of X size, and so forth; absolutely! These apply to everyone.
Like, I have heard "Okay well we'll tax AMZ employees!" "All their office space!" "All their sales!" and these proposals (thank god none from anyone with any power whatsoever) are just not good for so many reasons. I don't oppose the concept of "ensure a business pays taxes", I just oppose A: fuzzy sloganeering taking the place of concrete policy proposal and B: A city government either targeting "a business it doesn't like" (as that can be used for such bad ends) or exercising power it has not been explicitly granted.
0
Options
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I will remain on record as disapproving of candidates who run for a district position, focus on at-large issues, and campaign on slogans statutorily prohibited at the state level.
This is completely independent of my feelings on rent control; it's clearly not a panacea as we can see in SF/NYC, but that's as may be as long as it's explicitly prohibited by WA state. (https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=35.21.830) As for "Tax Amazon!" I have yet to see a coherent proposal on what comprises "Amazon" for these purposes, and how and what the tax should be collected on, and under what authority. (And I have FEELINGS about "well we should just do it anyway".)
"Tax Amazon" is a slogan for raising taxes on a whole host of companies. The government has every right to insutute, say, a head tax.
But that's not what they keep trying to implement. They keep explicitly trying to tax Amazon in specific. Come with a proposal that says "We want to do X via Y, affecting Z." That head tax, for instance, was fairly reasonable, and as I recall not stricken on any grounds other than "people went WAAAAAAH". When you tell me that we want to tax X company, I get twitchy, because I don't believe the government should be empowered to target a specific business for taxation. "Bob's Cheese and Bait has to pay 400% for reasons 'cause Fuck Bob, man." Specific industries, classes of business, companies of X size, and so forth; absolutely! These apply to everyone.
Like, I have heard "Okay well we'll tax AMZ employees!" "All their office space!" "All their sales!" and these proposals (thank god none from anyone with any power whatsoever) are just not good for so many reasons. I don't oppose the concept of "ensure a business pays taxes", I just oppose A: fuzzy sloganeering taking the place of concrete policy proposal and B: A city government either targeting "a business it doesn't like" (as that can be used for such bad ends) or exercising power it has not been explicitly granted.
Dude where are you getting your info. This is the latest Tax Amazon proposal (compared with another, weaker one). It's a tax on any company with payroll > $7 million a year.
I've seen coyotes on the back side of Capitol Hill (near Madison Valley), Ravenna, and north Ballard.
They're around.
@doc Yeah, I saw one just trotting down the street in north Ballard, outside Swanson's Nursery, in the middle of the afternoon. The location surprised me, but so did the time of day - coyotes are generally crepuscular.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It's not some crazy criticism to say that movements putting class first have historically left racial minorities behind?
Like especially in America which is just steeped in racism, playing the working class against itself along racial lines.
Its a pretty crazy criticism when the subject is a poc socialist laying it on the line for racial justice while the struggle is getting a bunch of ostensibly liberal white people on board, yes
Councilmember Kshama Sawant said during a council briefing the shooting “highlights the urgency to address the endemic violence in our society under capitalism.”
This is the thing I'm talking about.
I wouldn't call that "laying it on the line for racial justice".
Sawant's contribution to the cause does not begin or end with her desire to dismantle capitalism. Did you not know she was the one who let protesters into city hall? That she was leading early calls for Durkan's resignation? I saw her personally on the streets trying to get the cops to calm down.
Remarks about how socialists miss the mark on race particularly rankle here, because like I said, they're being employed against a poc woman doing her best to fight against a white liberal establishment in service of racial justice.
It all makes the criticsm of socialists feel more like a liberal catechism than any kind of real evaluation.
I mean, do you think what she said there was dumb?
The thing the rankles on my side is that your comments give the appearance that Sawant is beyond criticism, that supporting the main cause of dethroning capitalism absolves you from having your motives questioned.
Like... that's the criticism, that she isn't actually putting racial justice first. Like yes she's here supporting a movement for racial justice but is also using it to advance her own platform of issues that aren't related to racism in policing.
If marching, protesting, risking career and safety isnt putting racial justice first because you still made an off hand remark about alleviating violence by ending capitalism then what the fuck do words mean? Is this true of all the protesters who want both racial justice and to end capitalism?
There are so many moving targets that it seems like leftists arent meant to ever hit.
Let me phase this in another way.
(like, especially considering I'd much rather have Sawant on the council than a bunch of big business shills, and think that yeah, she's working more towards racial justice than the others on the council...)
[this is where I sat here for like 30 minutes trying to put my thoughts together]
I think, ultimately, what bothers me when I interact with leftist discourse here is that I keep seeing absolutism and a lack of self criticism?
Like Sawant says this bit and some of the liberal posters bring it up and the answer isn't 'yeah that was dumb' it's just 'how dare you'.
I dunno man. I guess there's definitely a sense of "fuck your polite discourse" from the leftist side and it's earned, but also then why, what are we doing here?
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
It's not some crazy criticism to say that movements putting class first have historically left racial minorities behind?
Like especially in America which is just steeped in racism, playing the working class against itself along racial lines.
Its a pretty crazy criticism when the subject is a poc socialist laying it on the line for racial justice while the struggle is getting a bunch of ostensibly liberal white people on board, yes
Councilmember Kshama Sawant said during a council briefing the shooting “highlights the urgency to address the endemic violence in our society under capitalism.”
This is the thing I'm talking about.
I wouldn't call that "laying it on the line for racial justice".
Sawant's contribution to the cause does not begin or end with her desire to dismantle capitalism. Did you not know she was the one who let protesters into city hall? That she was leading early calls for Durkan's resignation? I saw her personally on the streets trying to get the cops to calm down.
Remarks about how socialists miss the mark on race particularly rankle here, because like I said, they're being employed against a poc woman doing her best to fight against a white liberal establishment in service of racial justice.
It all makes the criticsm of socialists feel more like a liberal catechism than any kind of real evaluation.
I mean, do you think what she said there was dumb?
The thing the rankles on my side is that your comments give the appearance that Sawant is beyond criticism, that supporting the main cause of dethroning capitalism absolves you from having your motives questioned.
Like... that's the criticism, that she isn't actually putting racial justice first. Like yes she's here supporting a movement for racial justice but is also using it to advance her own platform of issues that aren't related to racism in policing.
If marching, protesting, risking career and safety isnt putting racial justice first because you still made an off hand remark about alleviating violence by ending capitalism then what the fuck do words mean? Is this true of all the protesters who want both racial justice and to end capitalism?
There are so many moving targets that it seems like leftists arent meant to ever hit.
Let me phase this in another way.
(like, especially considering I'd much rather have Sawant on the council than a bunch of big business shills, and think that yeah, she's working more towards racial justice than the others on the council...)
[this is where I sat here for like 30 minutes trying to put my thoughts together]
I think, ultimately, what bothers me when I interact with leftist discourse here is that I keep seeing absolutism and a lack of self criticism?
Like Sawant says this bit and some of the liberal posters bring it up and the answer isn't 'yeah that was dumb' it's just 'how dare you'.
I dunno man. I guess there's definitely a sense of "fuck your polite discourse" from the leftist side and it's earned, but also then why, what are we doing here?
I dont get the complaint. Is it really just "some people agreed with what she said when I didnt"?
Like of course we agree with some stuff you think is dumb. We're an entirely different political ideology.
I literally referred to Sawant as a lesser evil earlier. I'm not sure there's a much meaner way to refer to someone who is risking their life, health, and career for things I care about.
+2
Options
knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
My county finally cancelled the county fair that was scheduled for 6 weeks from now
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
It's not some crazy criticism to say that movements putting class first have historically left racial minorities behind?
Like especially in America which is just steeped in racism, playing the working class against itself along racial lines.
Its a pretty crazy criticism when the subject is a poc socialist laying it on the line for racial justice while the struggle is getting a bunch of ostensibly liberal white people on board, yes
Councilmember Kshama Sawant said during a council briefing the shooting “highlights the urgency to address the endemic violence in our society under capitalism.”
This is the thing I'm talking about.
I wouldn't call that "laying it on the line for racial justice".
Sawant's contribution to the cause does not begin or end with her desire to dismantle capitalism. Did you not know she was the one who let protesters into city hall? That she was leading early calls for Durkan's resignation? I saw her personally on the streets trying to get the cops to calm down.
Remarks about how socialists miss the mark on race particularly rankle here, because like I said, they're being employed against a poc woman doing her best to fight against a white liberal establishment in service of racial justice.
It all makes the criticsm of socialists feel more like a liberal catechism than any kind of real evaluation.
I mean, do you think what she said there was dumb?
The thing the rankles on my side is that your comments give the appearance that Sawant is beyond criticism, that supporting the main cause of dethroning capitalism absolves you from having your motives questioned.
Like... that's the criticism, that she isn't actually putting racial justice first. Like yes she's here supporting a movement for racial justice but is also using it to advance her own platform of issues that aren't related to racism in policing.
If marching, protesting, risking career and safety isnt putting racial justice first because you still made an off hand remark about alleviating violence by ending capitalism then what the fuck do words mean? Is this true of all the protesters who want both racial justice and to end capitalism?
There are so many moving targets that it seems like leftists arent meant to ever hit.
Let me phase this in another way.
(like, especially considering I'd much rather have Sawant on the council than a bunch of big business shills, and think that yeah, she's working more towards racial justice than the others on the council...)
[this is where I sat here for like 30 minutes trying to put my thoughts together]
I think, ultimately, what bothers me when I interact with leftist discourse here is that I keep seeing absolutism and a lack of self criticism?
Like Sawant says this bit and some of the liberal posters bring it up and the answer isn't 'yeah that was dumb' it's just 'how dare you'.
I dunno man. I guess there's definitely a sense of "fuck your polite discourse" from the leftist side and it's earned, but also then why, what are we doing here?
I dont get the complaint. Is it really just "some people agreed with what she said when I didnt"?
Like of course we agree with some stuff you think is dumb. We're an entirely different political ideology.
No I think my complaint is that it's not that we disagree, but that criticisms are just rejected outright.
Like, I say there is a problem where leftist discourse makes everything about the class struggle first and foremost, which is particularly dangerous in America where we have a centuries long racial animosity that transcends class, which is why we're viewing Sawant with some suspicion.
You say that's crazy and Sawant is supporting racial justice.
I bring back her own words where she's putting the classist framing before racial justice.
And I guess where I feel disconnected is the response I would've expected would be like, yes that remark in particular was bad, but look her actions show she really cares.
But instead I get told that I'm not allowed to criticize because Sawant is a POC (so I guess it's impossible for her to fail the black community?), then at least the expected bit about how her actions speak louder than words, and then saying that I don't even believe my own criticism, that it's just a catechism.
I do think that statement was particularly inappropriate for both the specific incident, and especially in the context of the wider movement.
If you really think that there's never a bad time to say "capitalism bad" then I guess I would've hoped for some elaboration on the broader point of whether socialist ideology falters when dealing with racism or not.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Capitalism is a huge, huge factor in systematic racism. Racism would still be a factor in a non-capitalistic system, but it's one of the main foundations of real world capitalism.
It's fine if you think that her emphasis on that aspect of the system is not the most immediate factor, but it's absolutely a factor and she's playing to her strengths.
We’re so racist because of the way we do capitalism
I’m not even a leftist
Sawant’s comment seemed more about race than capitalism to me, because the way we do capitalism requires an underclass, and our capitalists figured out long ago that the best way to maintain that underclass was to foment racism, ergo we must change the way we do capitalism to fix systemic racism in this country
Capitalism is a huge, huge factor in systematic racism. Racism would still be a factor in a non-capitalistic system, but it's one of the main foundations of real world capitalism.
It's fine if you think that her emphasis on that aspect of the system is not the most immediate factor, but it's absolutely a factor and she's playing to her strengths.
This is where I disagree with this assessment. I think racism plays a far more pervasive role then economic or social status. It's purely skin color, cops don't check a black persons education or econ status before pulling them over, hassling, and then killing them.
Trying to solve racism with monetary policy is folly, it feels like "rising tides lifts all boats" while black people remain chained to the docks. And in this specific circumstance it rings hollow when best of my knowledge the people who killed the 16 year old are still at large and not identified. No official reason even being given why he needed to die or the 14 year old was put into critical condition. And hearing a politician connected to this group say "its society to blame" when the actual killers are not being held accountable is ridiculous. I wouldn't accept that bullshit from Durkhan or Best and I won't from Sawant.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Capitalism is a huge, huge factor in systematic racism. Racism would still be a factor in a non-capitalistic system, but it's one of the main foundations of real world capitalism.
It's fine if you think that her emphasis on that aspect of the system is not the most immediate factor, but it's absolutely a factor and she's playing to her strengths.
This is where I disagree with this assessment. I think racism plays a far more pervasive role then economic or social status. It's purely skin color, cops don't check a black persons education or econ status before pulling them over, hassling, and then killing them.
Trying to solve racism with monetary policy is folly, it feels like "rising tides lifts all boats" while black people remain chained to the docks. And in this specific circumstance it rings hollow when best of my knowledge the people who killed the 16 year old are still at large and not identified. No official reason even being given why he needed to die or the 14 year old was put into critical condition. And hearing a politician connected to this group say "its society to blame" when the actual killers are not being held accountable is ridiculous. I wouldn't accept that bullshit from Durkhan or Best and I won't from Sawant.
How do you propose minorities affect change when they cannot afford the things that allow someone to obtain power?
The cause of racism in America is largely due to capitalism, but that doesn't mean that the racism will fix itself once the capitalism goes away.
Totally. They're both built on the same foundation that it's okay for some people to have a better life than other people, so they work well together, but they can function separately.
Remove all racism from the species and you still have classism, and remove all classism and you still have racism, but their synergy is really, really strong.
The cause of racism in America is largely due to capitalism, but that doesn't mean that the racism will fix itself once the capitalism goes away.
For sure capital’s greatest “victory” is how deeply embedded racism is in the US- it started before we were an independent country, is in our founding document, it’s the cause of our greatest conflict, and people can’t even say “black lives matter” today
We are so prosperous (/sigh, at the top) because we are the most vicious capitalists, the quickest to eschew decency to other humans to make an extra buck
Capitalism is a huge, huge factor in systematic racism. Racism would still be a factor in a non-capitalistic system, but it's one of the main foundations of real world capitalism.
It's fine if you think that her emphasis on that aspect of the system is not the most immediate factor, but it's absolutely a factor and she's playing to her strengths.
This is where I disagree with this assessment. I think racism plays a far more pervasive role then economic or social status. It's purely skin color, cops don't check a black persons education or econ status before pulling them over, hassling, and then killing them.
Trying to solve racism with monetary policy is folly, it feels like "rising tides lifts all boats" while black people remain chained to the docks. And in this specific circumstance it rings hollow when best of my knowledge the people who killed the 16 year old are still at large and not identified. No official reason even being given why he needed to die or the 14 year old was put into critical condition. And hearing a politician connected to this group say "its society to blame" when the actual killers are not being held accountable is ridiculous. I wouldn't accept that bullshit from Durkhan or Best and I won't from Sawant.
How do you propose minorities affect change when they cannot afford the things that allow someone to obtain power?
Societal change to truly believe black lives matter and become less racist. I mean socialist countries are still racist. And if we waved a magic wand and socialism was all over america it wouldn't help people like Trayvon Martin or Ahmuad Arbery. Or the 16 year old shot dead yesterday morning. They'd still be dead, and america would still be racist as fuck, just racist as fuck with better benefits for white people.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Capitalism is a huge, huge factor in systematic racism. Racism would still be a factor in a non-capitalistic system, but it's one of the main foundations of real world capitalism.
It's fine if you think that her emphasis on that aspect of the system is not the most immediate factor, but it's absolutely a factor and she's playing to her strengths.
This is where I disagree with this assessment. I think racism plays a far more pervasive role then economic or social status. It's purely skin color, cops don't check a black persons education or econ status before pulling them over, hassling, and then killing them.
Trying to solve racism with monetary policy is folly, it feels like "rising tides lifts all boats" while black people remain chained to the docks. And in this specific circumstance it rings hollow when best of my knowledge the people who killed the 16 year old are still at large and not identified. No official reason even being given why he needed to die or the 14 year old was put into critical condition. And hearing a politician connected to this group say "its society to blame" when the actual killers are not being held accountable is ridiculous. I wouldn't accept that bullshit from Durkhan or Best and I won't from Sawant.
How do you propose minorities affect change when they cannot afford the things that allow someone to obtain power?
Societal change to truly believe black lives matter and become less racist. I mean socialist countries are still racist. And if we waved a magic wand and socialism was all over america it wouldn't help people like Trayvon Martin or Ahmuad Arbery. Or the 16 year old shot dead yesterday morning. They'd still be dead, and america would still be racist as fuck, just racist as fuck with better benefits for white people.
How do you propose they enact social change when they can't afford any control over it?
Capitalism is a huge, huge factor in systematic racism. Racism would still be a factor in a non-capitalistic system, but it's one of the main foundations of real world capitalism.
It's fine if you think that her emphasis on that aspect of the system is not the most immediate factor, but it's absolutely a factor and she's playing to her strengths.
This is where I disagree with this assessment. I think racism plays a far more pervasive role then economic or social status. It's purely skin color, cops don't check a black persons education or econ status before pulling them over, hassling, and then killing them.
Trying to solve racism with monetary policy is folly, it feels like "rising tides lifts all boats" while black people remain chained to the docks. And in this specific circumstance it rings hollow when best of my knowledge the people who killed the 16 year old are still at large and not identified. No official reason even being given why he needed to die or the 14 year old was put into critical condition. And hearing a politician connected to this group say "its society to blame" when the actual killers are not being held accountable is ridiculous. I wouldn't accept that bullshit from Durkhan or Best and I won't from Sawant.
How do you propose minorities affect change when they cannot afford the things that allow someone to obtain power?
Societal change to truly believe black lives matter and become less racist. I mean socialist countries are still racist. And if we waved a magic wand and socialism was all over america it wouldn't help people like Trayvon Martin or Ahmuad Arbery. Or the 16 year old shot dead yesterday morning. They'd still be dead, and america would still be racist as fuck, just racist as fuck with better benefits for white people.
Yeah man, I agree
My take, though, is that the reason we’re this much more racist than other countries is because we’re that much more capitalist
The link between racism and capitalism has been one made by civil rights activists for decades.
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
The link between racism and capitalism has been one made by civil rights activists for decades.
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
Idk it feels honestly kind of gross how many white guys are comfortable telling the poc woman that her mixture of class and race activism with a long precedent is Bad.
The link between racism and capitalism has been one made by civil rights activists for decades.
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
Idk it feels honestly kind of gross how many white guys are comfortable telling the poc woman that her mixture of class and race activism with a long precedent is Bad.
I honestly don't think she was trying to do the whole "the solution to racial injustice is socialism" thing, but that's what a lot of people heard.
Like I get it, socialists have not been perfect on this but I mean, on topic, its a movement strongly against a liberal government and the highest profile socialist in the state is out on the streets with them.
The link between racism and capitalism has been one made by civil rights activists for decades.
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
Idk it feels honestly kind of gross how many white guys are comfortable telling the poc woman that her mixture of class and race activism with a long precedent is Bad.
I honestly don't think she was trying to do the whole "the solution to racial injustice is socialism" thing, but that's what a lot of people heard.
Seems like people hear that sometimes no matter what we say
Styrofoam Sammich on
+1
Options
knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
The link between racism and capitalism has been one made by civil rights activists for decades.
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
Idk it feels honestly kind of gross how many white guys are comfortable telling the poc woman that her mixture of class and race activism with a long precedent is Bad.
I didn’t buy this shit from Hacksaw and I’m not buying it from you.
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
The link between racism and capitalism has been one made by civil rights activists for decades.
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
Idk it feels honestly kind of gross how many white guys are comfortable telling the poc woman that her mixture of class and race activism with a long precedent is Bad.
I didn’t buy this shit from Hacksaw and I’m not buying it from you.
I sincerely dont know what you're talking about but it doesnt seem necessary to pick a fight about it.
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
0
Options
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
The link between racism and capitalism has been one made by civil rights activists for decades.
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
Idk it feels honestly kind of gross how many white guys are comfortable telling the poc woman that her mixture of class and race activism with a long precedent is Bad.
I didn’t buy this shit from Hacksaw and I’m not buying it from you.
Knock it off.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
So... protest private citizens instead of government institutions?
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
So... protest private citizens instead of government institutions?
I can do both. I don't have to excuse one group because another group is bad or worse. What happened yesterday morning has still not been successfully explained. And we still don't know who killed the young man or why a 16 year old is dead.
Like there is also an unexplained aspect that the 14 year old who lived was brought there by a private party, but the 16 year old was brought by the fire department later, why the discrepency? Why was one person brought one way and another by the fire department? Did they leave the 16 year old to die after the shooting? We don't know, and I want fucking answers beyond "capitalism."
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Idk, every politician under every ideology has their stock "asked for comment" responses they use and it doesn't seem to me particularly important that Sawant's correct statement about the link between capitalism and violent crime matters much more or less than when Democrats give stock responses about the necessity of background checks without knowing if that would actually stop a given shooting.
It certainly doesnt seem to be so bad as all this, especially given how much she's done for the larger cause.
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
So... protest private citizens instead of government institutions?
I can do both. I don't have to excuse one group because another group is bad or worse. What happened yesterday morning has still not been successfully explained. And we still don't know who killed the young man or why a 16 year old is dead.
Like there is also an unexplained aspect that the 14 year old who lived was brought there by a private party, but the 16 year old was brought by the fire department later, why the discrepency? Why was one person brought one way and another by the fire department? Did they leave the 16 year old to die after the shooting? We don't know, and I want fucking answers beyond "capitalism."
Well Sawant isnt the one responsible for finding them nor is she keeping them from you so whats the good in being mad at her over it?
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
So... protest private citizens instead of government institutions?
I can do both. I don't have to excuse one group because another group is bad or worse. What happened yesterday morning has still not been successfully explained. And we still don't know who killed the young man or why a 16 year old is dead.
Like there is also an unexplained aspect that the 14 year old who lived was brought there by a private party, but the 16 year old was brought by the fire department later, why the discrepency? Why was one person brought one way and another by the fire department? Did they leave the 16 year old to die after the shooting? We don't know, and I want fucking answers beyond "capitalism."
So then she shouldn't stop protesting, she should just also protest additional things, including private citizens?
Incenjucar on
0
Options
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
So... protest private citizens instead of government institutions?
I can do both. I don't have to excuse one group because another group is bad or worse. What happened yesterday morning has still not been successfully explained. And we still don't know who killed the young man or why a 16 year old is dead.
Like there is also an unexplained aspect that the 14 year old who lived was brought there by a private party, but the 16 year old was brought by the fire department later, why the discrepency? Why was one person brought one way and another by the fire department? Did they leave the 16 year old to die after the shooting? We don't know, and I want fucking answers beyond "capitalism."
It would be disastrous for BLM/CHOP/the entire point of the protests for the one established political presence to drop all political pressure to focus on one shooting, no matter how tragic.
It's fucking weird as shit that you're treating Kshama Sawant like she's single-handedly responsible for anything that goes on inside CHOP.
If Sawant is saying the incorrect thing, what is the correct thing she should be saying instead, and why is that more correct?
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
So... protest private citizens instead of government institutions?
I can do both. I don't have to excuse one group because another group is bad or worse. What happened yesterday morning has still not been successfully explained. And we still don't know who killed the young man or why a 16 year old is dead.
Like there is also an unexplained aspect that the 14 year old who lived was brought there by a private party, but the 16 year old was brought by the fire department later, why the discrepency? Why was one person brought one way and another by the fire department? Did they leave the 16 year old to die after the shooting? We don't know, and I want fucking answers beyond "capitalism."
It would be disastrous for BLM/CHOP/the entire point of the protests for the one established political presence to drop all political pressure to focus on one shooting, no matter how tragic.
Ahh so this particular life doesn't matter then? Ok cool at least you admit that.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Posts
But that's not what they keep trying to implement. They keep explicitly trying to tax Amazon in specific. Come with a proposal that says "We want to do X via Y, affecting Z." That head tax, for instance, was fairly reasonable, and as I recall not stricken on any grounds other than "people went WAAAAAAH". When you tell me that we want to tax X company, I get twitchy, because I don't believe the government should be empowered to target a specific business for taxation. "Bob's Cheese and Bait has to pay 400% for reasons 'cause Fuck Bob, man." Specific industries, classes of business, companies of X size, and so forth; absolutely! These apply to everyone.
Like, I have heard "Okay well we'll tax AMZ employees!" "All their office space!" "All their sales!" and these proposals (thank god none from anyone with any power whatsoever) are just not good for so many reasons. I don't oppose the concept of "ensure a business pays taxes", I just oppose A: fuzzy sloganeering taking the place of concrete policy proposal and B: A city government either targeting "a business it doesn't like" (as that can be used for such bad ends) or exercising power it has not been explicitly granted.
Dude where are you getting your info. This is the latest Tax Amazon proposal (compared with another, weaker one). It's a tax on any company with payroll > $7 million a year.
First result for googling "tax amazon":
You know, the shit she and her campaign keep trying to communicate.
@doc Yeah, I saw one just trotting down the street in north Ballard, outside Swanson's Nursery, in the middle of the afternoon. The location surprised me, but so did the time of day - coyotes are generally crepuscular.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Let me phase this in another way.
(like, especially considering I'd much rather have Sawant on the council than a bunch of big business shills, and think that yeah, she's working more towards racial justice than the others on the council...)
[this is where I sat here for like 30 minutes trying to put my thoughts together]
I think, ultimately, what bothers me when I interact with leftist discourse here is that I keep seeing absolutism and a lack of self criticism?
Like Sawant says this bit and some of the liberal posters bring it up and the answer isn't 'yeah that was dumb' it's just 'how dare you'.
I dunno man. I guess there's definitely a sense of "fuck your polite discourse" from the leftist side and it's earned, but also then why, what are we doing here?
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
I dont get the complaint. Is it really just "some people agreed with what she said when I didnt"?
Like of course we agree with some stuff you think is dumb. We're an entirely different political ideology.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Had me wondering if the Evergreen state fair was still on, and its not, its been canceled.
pleasepaypreacher.net
No I think my complaint is that it's not that we disagree, but that criticisms are just rejected outright.
Like, I say there is a problem where leftist discourse makes everything about the class struggle first and foremost, which is particularly dangerous in America where we have a centuries long racial animosity that transcends class, which is why we're viewing Sawant with some suspicion.
You say that's crazy and Sawant is supporting racial justice.
I bring back her own words where she's putting the classist framing before racial justice.
And I guess where I feel disconnected is the response I would've expected would be like, yes that remark in particular was bad, but look her actions show she really cares.
But instead I get told that I'm not allowed to criticize because Sawant is a POC (so I guess it's impossible for her to fail the black community?), then at least the expected bit about how her actions speak louder than words, and then saying that I don't even believe my own criticism, that it's just a catechism.
I do think that statement was particularly inappropriate for both the specific incident, and especially in the context of the wider movement.
If you really think that there's never a bad time to say "capitalism bad" then I guess I would've hoped for some elaboration on the broader point of whether socialist ideology falters when dealing with racism or not.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
It's fine if you think that her emphasis on that aspect of the system is not the most immediate factor, but it's absolutely a factor and she's playing to her strengths.
I’m not even a leftist
Sawant’s comment seemed more about race than capitalism to me, because the way we do capitalism requires an underclass, and our capitalists figured out long ago that the best way to maintain that underclass was to foment racism, ergo we must change the way we do capitalism to fix systemic racism in this country
This is where I disagree with this assessment. I think racism plays a far more pervasive role then economic or social status. It's purely skin color, cops don't check a black persons education or econ status before pulling them over, hassling, and then killing them.
Trying to solve racism with monetary policy is folly, it feels like "rising tides lifts all boats" while black people remain chained to the docks. And in this specific circumstance it rings hollow when best of my knowledge the people who killed the 16 year old are still at large and not identified. No official reason even being given why he needed to die or the 14 year old was put into critical condition. And hearing a politician connected to this group say "its society to blame" when the actual killers are not being held accountable is ridiculous. I wouldn't accept that bullshit from Durkhan or Best and I won't from Sawant.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Apparently not!!!
How do you propose minorities affect change when they cannot afford the things that allow someone to obtain power?
Shit, at the last rally I went to at least half the speakers explictly listed the capitalist wage system as a root cause of black suffering.
I dont know why its become so fashionable to characterize that as "class reductionism".
Totally. They're both built on the same foundation that it's okay for some people to have a better life than other people, so they work well together, but they can function separately.
Remove all racism from the species and you still have classism, and remove all classism and you still have racism, but their synergy is really, really strong.
For sure capital’s greatest “victory” is how deeply embedded racism is in the US- it started before we were an independent country, is in our founding document, it’s the cause of our greatest conflict, and people can’t even say “black lives matter” today
We are so prosperous (/sigh, at the top) because we are the most vicious capitalists, the quickest to eschew decency to other humans to make an extra buck
Societal change to truly believe black lives matter and become less racist. I mean socialist countries are still racist. And if we waved a magic wand and socialism was all over america it wouldn't help people like Trayvon Martin or Ahmuad Arbery. Or the 16 year old shot dead yesterday morning. They'd still be dead, and america would still be racist as fuck, just racist as fuck with better benefits for white people.
pleasepaypreacher.net
How do you propose they enact social change when they can't afford any control over it?
Yeah man, I agree
My take, though, is that the reason we’re this much more racist than other countries is because we’re that much more capitalist
Yeah, there's a reason MLK was talking about guaranteed income and such. At the same time, there is a lack of earned trust between the black community and the socialist community, and the history there isn't great. In particular, viewing racial issues from a purely socialist perspective is a reoccurring issue, so viewing Sawant's statement as yet another example of this isn't that big of a leap, even if that's not what she's doing. (Not to mention the disconnect between "the police need to tone it down" with the proposed solution of overthrowing capitalism. I mean sure, but until the glorious revolution comes, maybe focus on something that would help this specific issue, comrade?)
Idk it feels honestly kind of gross how many white guys are comfortable telling the poc woman that her mixture of class and race activism with a long precedent is Bad.
I honestly don't think she was trying to do the whole "the solution to racial injustice is socialism" thing, but that's what a lot of people heard.
Seems like people hear that sometimes no matter what we say
I didn’t buy this shit from Hacksaw and I’m not buying it from you.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I sincerely dont know what you're talking about but it doesnt seem necessary to pick a fight about it.
Knock it off.
That the people who shot the 16 year old should be investigated for why they did what they did and that black lives matter? Like her comment glossed over the dead 16 year old pretty expertly when this whole protest originally was about the loss of black lives and how that should matter.
Like in the specific, in the now, there is a 16 year old black person who lost his life and his killers have not been identified, and she is allied with the people who are alleged to have killed him.
pleasepaypreacher.net
So... protest private citizens instead of government institutions?
What was she supposed to protest before this?
I can do both. I don't have to excuse one group because another group is bad or worse. What happened yesterday morning has still not been successfully explained. And we still don't know who killed the young man or why a 16 year old is dead.
Like there is also an unexplained aspect that the 14 year old who lived was brought there by a private party, but the 16 year old was brought by the fire department later, why the discrepency? Why was one person brought one way and another by the fire department? Did they leave the 16 year old to die after the shooting? We don't know, and I want fucking answers beyond "capitalism."
pleasepaypreacher.net
It certainly doesnt seem to be so bad as all this, especially given how much she's done for the larger cause.
Well Sawant isnt the one responsible for finding them nor is she keeping them from you so whats the good in being mad at her over it?
So then she shouldn't stop protesting, she should just also protest additional things, including private citizens?
It would be disastrous for BLM/CHOP/the entire point of the protests for the one established political presence to drop all political pressure to focus on one shooting, no matter how tragic.
It's fucking weird as shit that you're treating Kshama Sawant like she's single-handedly responsible for anything that goes on inside CHOP.
Ahh so this particular life doesn't matter then? Ok cool at least you admit that.
pleasepaypreacher.net