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[US Foreign Policy] A Generation of War

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Still waiting for the entire front page of the NYT to be devoted to this leakage of classified material.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    NBC are confirming CNN’s story that the image was included in Trump’s national intelligence briefing. They’re citing an unnamed defense official.


    (I’m allowed to say “but her emails!” at least once here... right?)

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    well, you can, but they're total shameless hypocrites, so it won't matter.

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    NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    He has a dedicated twitter on the shitter phone. He probably snapped a picture, and no one spoke up against it.

    Needing to physically restrain the POTUS against his protest is something these people never considered and quite possibly cannot wrap their heads around.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    It’s cool. I got it out of my system.

    So anyway now seems like a good time to talk about the fact that Trump seems to be able to take photos of classified documents from his intelligence briefings on his phone and he either isn’t noticed doing it or is allowed to do it and that Trump uses his unsecured personal phone for government business despite evidence China has hacked it and that Trump is very fond of holding meetings with Putin with no other witnesses from his administration and no written or video recordings of their discussions.

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    NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    It is clear that the it is in the best interest of my country that the Intelligence Community, specifically to ones charged with briefing the president, should lie to and manipulate said president.

    And that has ramifications for long after Trump is no longer president.

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    KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Yeah this is a disaster for US intelligence but also is anyone actually surprised

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    KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    maybe nancy pelosi should look at that picture long and hard and think about the office she occupies

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    It’s also worth remembering that despite not having clearance, Kushner was near obsessed with Intelligence briefings and attended them every day and of course he has been know to meet up with Bin Salman while avoiding the scrutiny every official going near him should be under.

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Do you think Hillary's Trump's classified e-mail Twitter leaks make her him unqualified to be president next election cycle in the eyes of the GOP?

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    GorkGork Registered User regular
    No.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    they're total shameless hypocrites, so it won't matter.

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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Guess we know exactly which satellite took it now.

    Tweeter is an astronomer.

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    XantomasXantomas Registered User regular
    American secret intelligence briefings are probably only secret to Americans now. Trump probably texts his briefings to Putin and China intercepts it and Kushner is keeping the Saudis in the loop.

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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    And just to circle back to the Washington Post again and throw in another reason to panic, apparently Trump’s National Security Advisor Bolton has fallen from Trump’s favor and has been squabbling with other cabinet members, so now he’s being frozen out of decisions on Afghanistan (including the possible peace agreement with the Taliban) and other critical National Security areas.


    Ned was a special assistant to Obama, but the story is from the Washington Post.

    To be fair, I don’t trust Bolton either

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Elldren wrote: »
    And just to circle back to the Washington Post again and throw in another reason to panic, apparently Trump’s National Security Advisor Bolton has fallen from Trump’s favor and has been squabbling with other cabinet members, so now he’s being frozen out of decisions on Afghanistan (including the possible peace agreement with the Taliban) and other critical National Security areas.


    Ned was a special assistant to Obama, but the story is from the Washington Post.

    To be fair, I don’t trust Bolton either

    Yeah and the article cites from pretty crazy behavior from him, including taunting and threatening staff that anger him for whatever reason.

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    HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    Elldren wrote: »
    And just to circle back to the Washington Post again and throw in another reason to panic, apparently Trump’s National Security Advisor Bolton has fallen from Trump’s favor and has been squabbling with other cabinet members, so now he’s being frozen out of decisions on Afghanistan (including the possible peace agreement with the Taliban) and other critical National Security areas.


    Ned was a special assistant to Obama, but the story is from the Washington Post.

    To be fair, I don’t trust Bolton either

    Yeah and the article cites from pretty crazy behavior from him, including taunting and threatening staff that anger him for whatever reason.

    Pretty certain that behavior has been a hallmark of his entire career...

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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    Given that Trump's mocked the dude himself almost since day one, I'm not sure why he was even hired beyond "we couldn't find anyone else to take the gig".

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    under normal circumstances that'd be more alarming, but I feel like bolton is just about the worst person to have in the job soooo

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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Anyone else think that photo is too well-cropped for Trump to have done that himself?

    Like for sure it got to his phone

    But I take photos of workflows on whiteboards all the time at work and have to edit them a good bit afterwards before uploading and distributing, and the pic Trump tweeted out is perfectly cropped and rotated.....I have a hard time believing Trump can work an image editing app better than me...

    What I’m getting at is I think it might be standard practice for this admin that someone is routinely snapping and editing these photos for Trump

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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    Xantomas wrote: »
    American secret intelligence briefings are probably only secret to Americans now. Trump probably texts his briefings to Putin and China intercepts it and Kushner is keeping the Saudis in the loop.

    Trump sends it to Russia, it’s intercepted by China, moles inside China let Canada and Australia get the goods, and they pass it on to the United Kingdom. The UK passes it on to France in a smoky bar in the Montmartre, and France dutifully shares it with Germany at a football game. Germany passes it on to Turkey over kebabs, and then Turkey BCC’s Iran, who flips it off to Japan to return a favour. Japan reluctantly shares it with South Korea, who quietly gets it to India, and India just has to tell Brazil what’s going on, and then Brazil shares with Mexico.

    Eventually, about twenty four hours after Trump texts Russia, Togo goes to the US and is like “hey, think that you might have a leak somewhere.”

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    Blackhawk1313Blackhawk1313 Demon Hunter for Hire Time RiftRegistered User regular
    I get the joke of course but that thread title makes me very uncomfortable. Which means it’s perfect representation of how his sharing of info makes me feel. Those markings are (supposed to be) serious business.

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    Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I get the joke of course but that thread title makes me very uncomfortable. Which means it’s perfect representation of how his sharing of info makes me feel. Those markings are (supposed to be) serious business.

    I remember years ago when Command and Conquer: Red Alert (part 1 or 2, doesn’t matter) came out and as soon as you load the game, it says something along the lines of, “WARNING! TOP SECRET MILITARY SOFTWARE DETECTED!”

    I remember getting looked at side eyed from my coworkers cause I was in the military and deployed at the time. I thought it was pretty funny when one of them actually panicked and thought I was really loading top secret software onto my personal laptop

    I had to explain it was just a video game being silly lol.

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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    At work we get annual warnings about how we're not allowed to even look at wikileaks-related info without endangering our clearances, which always struck me as a little backwards - my friends without clearances can view and discuss leaked stuff no problem, but someone with an actual clearance gets in trouble?

    But when the President's the one leaking it...like, I guess that automatically declassifies it, right? Or are all us contractors in trouble for looking at the President's twitter account :P

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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    The President can declassify anything he likes, so I guess everything is fine with this, legally.

    If OBAMA had declassified spy photos to gloat over a successful sabotage op, the shrieking from Fox News would be heard in China.

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    The President can declassify anything he likes, so I guess everything is fine with this, legally.

    If OBAMA had declassified spy photos to gloat over a successful sabotage op, the shrieking from Fox News would be heard in China.

    Yeah, it's less about the legality of it, and more about the utter disregard Trump shows to compromising intelligence capabilities.

    This isn't really any different to allowing Kushner security clearance (or a workaround), or divulging information to the Russians. It's technically legal, because he's the defining authority on these things.

    But under any other Presidency, this would be a scandal that would last months, ending with either resignation, impeachment (due to unfitness, not illegality), and if both were avoided, probably doom any chance of re-election.

    With Trump, this probably won't still be a scandal by Tuesday. It shouldn't be, but this is the new normal. Trump is graded on a curve so sharp, it's bending time. Maybe that's why it feels he's been President for a decade already.

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    Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Heartlash wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    And just to circle back to the Washington Post again and throw in another reason to panic, apparently Trump’s National Security Advisor Bolton has fallen from Trump’s favor and has been squabbling with other cabinet members, so now he’s being frozen out of decisions on Afghanistan (including the possible peace agreement with the Taliban) and other critical National Security areas.


    Ned was a special assistant to Obama, but the story is from the Washington Post.

    To be fair, I don’t trust Bolton either

    Yeah and the article cites from pretty crazy behavior from him, including taunting and threatening staff that anger him for whatever reason.

    Pretty certain that behavior has been a hallmark of his entire career...

    Possibly why I thought that picture was him flipping the bird.

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    For a narcissist warhawk like Bolton who regularly abuses his power to ensure literally the opposite of the point of his job is done at all times, falling out of favor and watching everyone exclude you and go over your head is a fate worse than death; it's not quite finally getting him out of office, but I'd daresay it's the next best thing to watch happen.

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    At work we get annual warnings about how we're not allowed to even look at wikileaks-related info without endangering our clearances, which always struck me as a little backwards - my friends without clearances can view and discuss leaked stuff no problem, but someone with an actual clearance gets in trouble?

    But when the President's the one leaking it...like, I guess that automatically declassifies it, right? Or are all us contractors in trouble for looking at the President's twitter account :P

    From what I understand, the President can do whatever he likes with classified information, but that doesn’t mean that everything he tweets out like this is automatically declassified. Might be, might not. The classification label isn’t shown. So yeah, this might be a bit of a problem for some people.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    Like many of Trump's hires, Bolton's main qualification was that he regularly appeared on fox news.

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Can I just point how unbelievably fucked up the situation is that critical parts of the government aren't co-ordinating policy because they know that people at the top of the food chain will do everything in their power to sabotage it?

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    themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Can I just point how unbelievably fucked up the situation is that critical parts of the government aren't co-ordinating policy because they know that people at the top of the food chain will do everything in their power to sabotage it?

    Isn't policy supposed to be decided by elected officials as promulgated to political appointees who are the top of the food chain. Aren't day to day bureaucrats simply supposed to implement such policy. If critical parts of the government aren't coordinating because they don't like what the political folks want, isn't that a bit sketchy? It might be a good thing in the grand scheme of things but it isn't formally a good thing. Formally it is a very, very, bad thing and it feeds right in to FoxNews-->AlexJones conspiracy theories about the "Deep State".

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    NotYouNotYou Registered User regular
    I feel extremely relieved that Bolton isn't trusted and no one wants to do his crazy ass shit. Go Trump admin! I don't like you guys, but I love how you haven't gotten us into any wars yet!

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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Perhaps this will be a peaceful Presidency because the military top brass are too much at loggerheads to figure out where they want to declare war on.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    Normally a person in an important position being that sidelined would lead to him being kicked out of the administration, especially when the person was not needed to satisfy any political needs.

    Couscous on
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    At work we get annual warnings about how we're not allowed to even look at wikileaks-related info without endangering our clearances, which always struck me as a little backwards - my friends without clearances can view and discuss leaked stuff no problem, but someone with an actual clearance gets in trouble?

    But when the President's the one leaking it...like, I guess that automatically declassifies it, right? Or are all us contractors in trouble for looking at the President's twitter account :P

    Youre almoat certainly in the clear. If the President did not authorize the public distribution of the image then he committed a crime. If the President did authorize the public distribution of the image then its not classified.

    I cannot imagine you losing a court martial when your defense was “i was reading the Presidents public statements” and this was true

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited August 2019
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    At work we get annual warnings about how we're not allowed to even look at wikileaks-related info without endangering our clearances, which always struck me as a little backwards - my friends without clearances can view and discuss leaked stuff no problem, but someone with an actual clearance gets in trouble?

    But when the President's the one leaking it...like, I guess that automatically declassifies it, right? Or are all us contractors in trouble for looking at the President's twitter account :P

    Youre almoat certainly in the clear. If the President did not authorize the public distribution of the image then he committed a crime. If the President did authorize the public distribution of the image then its not classified.

    I cannot imagine you losing a court martial when your defense was “i was reading the Presidents public statements” and this was true

    While I wouldn't expect it, I can absolutely see it.

    Michael Cohen is in jail, in part because of a crime he and the President committed together, on behalf of, and at the behest of, the President.

    To use a Han Solo quote out of context, "I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit."

    MorganV on
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    At work we get annual warnings about how we're not allowed to even look at wikileaks-related info without endangering our clearances, which always struck me as a little backwards - my friends without clearances can view and discuss leaked stuff no problem, but someone with an actual clearance gets in trouble?

    But when the President's the one leaking it...like, I guess that automatically declassifies it, right? Or are all us contractors in trouble for looking at the President's twitter account :P

    Youre almoat certainly in the clear. If the President did not authorize the public distribution of the image then he committed a crime. If the President did authorize the public distribution of the image then its not classified.

    I cannot imagine you losing a court martial when your defense was “i was reading the Presidents public statements” and this was true

    While I wouldn't expect it, I can absolutely see it.

    Michael Cohen is in jail, in part because of a crime he and the President committed together, on behalf of, and at the behest of, the President.

    To use a Han Solo quote out of context, "I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit."

    Sure. But that is because the President told him to do something illegal. And then he did it.

    The president cannot illegally hand out classified information. If you act on that in an illegal way you may have a problem. But if the President publishes it its not classified.

    Your defense isnt “i was just following orders”. Your defense is “i was just reading my orders”

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    At work we get annual warnings about how we're not allowed to even look at wikileaks-related info without endangering our clearances, which always struck me as a little backwards - my friends without clearances can view and discuss leaked stuff no problem, but someone with an actual clearance gets in trouble?

    But when the President's the one leaking it...like, I guess that automatically declassifies it, right? Or are all us contractors in trouble for looking at the President's twitter account :P

    Youre almoat certainly in the clear. If the President did not authorize the public distribution of the image then he committed a crime. If the President did authorize the public distribution of the image then its not classified.

    I cannot imagine you losing a court martial when your defense was “i was reading the Presidents public statements” and this was true

    While I wouldn't expect it, I can absolutely see it.

    Michael Cohen is in jail, in part because of a crime he and the President committed together, on behalf of, and at the behest of, the President.

    To use a Han Solo quote out of context, "I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit."

    Sure. But that is because the President told him to do something illegal. And then he did it.

    The president cannot illegally hand out classified information. If you act on that in an illegal way you may have a problem. But if the President publishes it its not classified.

    Your defense isnt “i was just following orders”. Your defense is “i was just reading my orders”

    But that requires a rational reading of the law, and a rational interpretation of that law, and a lack of an irrational upholding of that law. :)

    As you said in the passage I quoted, one of two things happened.

    1) The President didn't authorize it, and committed a crime.
    2) The President authorized it, and it's not classified.

    You appear to be saying that option 2 is the only way it can be interpreted.

    I'm saying that in this reality, it's only the most likely interpretation. I've given up trying to see what stupid shit this Administration will argue, if it's in defense of the President, or in favor of the President's goals.

    Soap, a toothbrush and blankets may not be essential to ensuring 'safe and sanitary' conditions for migrant children.

    At that point, I think my brain just broke, and I can't accept that there's not some small sliver of justification that someone in this Administration will argue is contradictory to rationality.

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    DacDac Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    He has a dedicated twitter on the shitter phone. He probably snapped a picture, and no one spoke up against it.

    "Oh he must be taking a photo for his later consideration and examination."

    *five minutes later*

    "fml"

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