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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Winning The Argument Looks A Lot Like Losing

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Even if the WMD had been real it was seen as nothing to do with us.
    I'm not sure that the people who actively protested at the time thought of the Iraq War as "nothing to do with us". It was much more of a "no blood for oil" thing, if I remember correctly. It was a protest against what was seen as neocolonial warmongering.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    The Iraq war was not popular in the UK. I remember protests against it. Even if the WMD had been real it was seen as nothing to do with us.

    That's not true I'm afraid
    Memories of Iraq: did we ever support the war? (Yougov)


    Though it has been controversial for over a decade, the invasion was actually popular at the time. In 2003, YouGov conducted 21 polls from March to December asking British people whether they thought the decision by the US and the UK to go to war was right or wrong, and on average 54% said it was right.

    But more than 10 years of opposition is a long time, and many people now remember things differently. Now only 37% of the public say they believed military action against Saddam Hussein was right at the time, instead of the 54% recorded at the time.



    Much like how Brexit is going to turn out, the majority of people supported the Iraq war at the time. Only after the utter shithow played out did people say start saying they always opposed it.

    EDIT: TOTP and I have seen that I've been beaten to it.

    SHAME ON ME


    SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEEEEE

    Karl on
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    The Iraq war was not popular in the UK. I remember protests against it. Even if the WMD had been real it was seen as nothing to do with us.

    That's not true I'm afraid
    Memories of Iraq: did we ever support the war? (Yougov)


    Though it has been controversial for over a decade, the invasion was actually popular at the time. In 2003, YouGov conducted 21 polls from March to December asking British people whether they thought the decision by the US and the UK to go to war was right or wrong, and on average 54% said it was right.

    But more than 10 years of opposition is a long time, and many people now remember things differently. Now only 37% of the public say they believed military action against Saddam Hussein was right at the time, instead of the 54% recorded at the time.



    Much like how Brexit is going to turn out, the majority of people supported the Iraq war at the time. Only after the utter shithow played out did people say start saying they always opposed it.

    EDIT: TOTP and I have seen that I've been beaten to it.

    SHAME ON ME


    SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEEEEE
    Lot of time for generational shift.
    Yes, i've no doubt many people will have just memory holed their previous position.
    But plenty of people have also grown up or died of old age.
    Kinda amazing how long ago it was.

  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Karl wrote: »
    The Iraq war was not popular in the UK. I remember protests against it. Even if the WMD had been real it was seen as nothing to do with us.

    That's not true I'm afraid
    Memories of Iraq: did we ever support the war? (Yougov)


    Though it has been controversial for over a decade, the invasion was actually popular at the time. In 2003, YouGov conducted 21 polls from March to December asking British people whether they thought the decision by the US and the UK to go to war was right or wrong, and on average 54% said it was right.

    But more than 10 years of opposition is a long time, and many people now remember things differently. Now only 37% of the public say they believed military action against Saddam Hussein was right at the time, instead of the 54% recorded at the time.



    Much like how Brexit is going to turn out, the majority of people supported the Iraq war at the time. Only after the utter shithow played out did people say start saying they always opposed it.

    EDIT: TOTP and I have seen that I've been beaten to it.

    SHAME ON ME


    SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEEEEE
    Lot of time for generational shift.
    Yes, i've no doubt many people will have just memory holed their previous position.
    But plenty of people have also grown up or died of old age.
    Kinda amazing how long ago it was.

    It's been so long that the idea that the Iraq War was supported is unthinkable.

    Unfortunately, it was. Yes, there was opposition of course but in general, it was supported.

    Iraq has tainted some sound political practice by Blair. For all the flak that New Labour Blairite Centrism gets, it did more to help people than anything that Corbyn and the Momentum lot have done.

    You don't do much if you can't win elections.

  • PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    Blair and New Labour won a majority after the Iraq War. That the Labour party decided to disassociate with the entire project due to opinion shifting on the Iraq war, is so wasteful. The Labour government of that era helped so many people, and yet those people are now told by Labour that it was basically a Tory government.

    And on the issue of generation shift favouring Labour long term, it's been an idea since at least the mid 80s. Yet the Tories have gone from not securing a majority in 2010, to having a slim majority in 2015, and now having a sizeable majority. There will be boundary changes in the next parliament. Labour really needs to get their shit together or they could be looking at 10 years before they're viable.

  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    The Queen doesn't sound like she believes a word of this speech.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited December 2019
    phase 1 of eu-uk fta negotiations most likely level playing field, fisheries and goods tariffs

    fisheries because disproportionately domestically important and likely to trigger lots of stupidity so get out of the way

    lpf because if agreed then goods default to zero tariff, but if uk is difficult then that is what gets haggled over piece by piece

    then services etc into second, as lpf determines the possible shape of this

    gov are probably going to try some macho nonsense about making the other side blink because we are trapped in a vortex around 2017 with nobody having learned anything. it is not obvious lpf is going to be easy to agree as 1) its the biggest commitment to a constraint on what gov can do in other agreements 2) gov has no strategy so cannot value concessions properly, meaning it will just try and maximise perceived flexibility, which means few concessions early in the process...

    surrealitycheck on
    3fpohw4n01yj.png
  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    The Queen doesn't sound like she believes a word of this speech.

    Well it is on record that she has been lied to by her Prime Minister.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    strange the public forgets that more con mps as a % than lab voted for iraq but there you go. the more labour self flagellate the harder it becomes to remember

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I guess I was just in a student bubble at the time of the Iraq war then.

  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    The Queen doesn't sound like she believes a word of this speech.

    Well it is on record that she has been lied to by her Prime Minister.

    Johnson had this smug smirk the whole time too.

  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Wait hang on, what? The Department or Exiting the EU closes on the 31st of Jan? Before the two year withdrawal period and negotiations?

  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    Jazz wrote: »
    The Queen doesn't sound like she believes a word of this speech.

    Well it is on record that she has been lied to by her Prime Minister.

    Johnson had this smug smirk the whole time too.

    Honesly, now that Brexit is inevitable, the worst part of all this is that the one slimy excuse of a man who shouldn't have, has gotten everything he ever wanted. He's the leader of the country, living in No. 10 with his much younger mistress, he will etch his name in history by taking us out of the EU with the largest Tory majority in like 100 years and is guaranteed protection and a gilded pension for the rest of his life on top of whatever stock shorting he benefits from with his insider trading. It's like the anti-fairytale where Hook guts Peter Pan and all the Lost Boys, it is everything that every story we were ever told said should not happen, it is empirical proof that if there is a God he is absent, uncaring, malevolent or just dead.

    It's proof that democracy doesn't actually work, that the electorate is by and large stupid, and that they will elect a man who is demonstrably bad in every way and who thinks of them as cattle to be corralled and controlled, it is proof that Idiocracy was not a comedy but a prophetic vision.

    It's fucked. And even him getting hit by a bus will do little to lessen the gaping wound he has caused with his pathetic, pustulant existence.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Wait hang on, what? The Department or Exiting the EU closes on the 31st of Jan? Before the two year withdrawal period and negotiations?

    A close family member of mine works there

    Fleeing like rats from a sinking ship apparently

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Wait hang on, what? The Department or Exiting the EU closes on the 31st of Jan? Before the two year withdrawal period and negotiations?
    Brexit Got Done.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
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    I mean if I'd won an argument I'd look happier about it.

    Anyway, some Labour staff have been getting emails leading up to a Christmas redundancy because Labour now get less short money (because they have fewer MPs), while the architects of the loss, Milne and Murphy, show no sign of going anywhere. Merry Christmas!

  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Wait hang on, what? The Department or Exiting the EU closes on the 31st of Jan? Before the two year withdrawal period and negotiations?

    A close family member of mine works there

    Fleeing like rats from a sinking ship apparently

    To be fair, they are doing the right thing by jumping ship.

    That department will get massive amounts of blame for this shitshow because "dey wa in chage of doin it"

    No one will have the foresight to realise the concept was crap in the first place.

  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Wait hang on, what? The Department or Exiting the EU closes on the 31st of Jan? Before the two year withdrawal period and negotiations?

    And by two years you mean 11 months now?

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    It's proof that democracy doesn't actually work, that the electorate is by and large stupid, and that they will elect a man who is demonstrably bad in every way and who thinks of them as cattle to be corralled and controlled, it is proof that Idiocracy was not a comedy but a prophetic vision.

    Once again, Sir Terry Pratchett puts things into words better than I can:
    People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn't that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people.

    klemming on
    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    klemming wrote: »
    It's proof that democracy doesn't actually work, that the electorate is by and large stupid, and that they will elect a man who is demonstrably bad in every way and who thinks of them as cattle to be corralled and controlled, it is proof that Idiocracy was not a comedy but a prophetic vision.

    Once again, Sir Terry Pratchett puts things into words better than I can:
    People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn't that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people.

    I feel like Pratchett had his tongue firmly in cheek there though. It reads like a comment on revolutionaries more then on the voting public.

    shryke on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    dexeu closing is literally because the gov has realised that Brexit is never ending so the current strat is simple; assume nobody has much clue about what Brexit is and mothball the department and forbid officials from using the word "Brexit" after 31 Jan

    this means that they can position Brexit as an immediate success and point fingers at all the individual parties involved in the inevitably conflicted negotiations - it's not a problem of Brexit ( which got done ) but of the eu being a poor loser and refusing to cooperate with Britain etc

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Pratchett always had his tongue in his cheek. It didn't mean he wasn't also right.
    And even though it was about a revolution, it still applies. This is our chance to make things better and stop all those things we say we hate! Oh, but the other guy is promising that I personally will have to pay less money, so you know...

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    klemming wrote: »
    Pratchett always had his tongue in his cheek. It didn't mean he wasn't also right.
    And even though it was about a revolution, it still applies. This is our chance to make things better and stop all those things we say we hate! Oh, but the other guy is promising that I personally will have to pay less money, so you know...

    I'm not saying it's about a revolution, I'm saying it's about revolutionaries. The quote sounds like he's taking the piss out of revolutionaries for finding the public inadequate to their desires for just not being revolutionary enough.

    shryke on
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    Pratchett always had his tongue in his cheek. It didn't mean he wasn't also right.
    And even though it was about a revolution, it still applies. This is our chance to make things better and stop all those things we say we hate! Oh, but the other guy is promising that I personally will have to pay less money, so you know...

    I'm not saying it's about a revolution, I'm saying it's about revolutionaries. The quote sounds like he's taking the piss out of revolutionaries for finding the public inadequate to their desires for just not being revolutionary enough.

    In that context, sure. But you could change it to Labour and voters and not notice the seam.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    the thing about not saying brexit is not even a meme btw:



    (editor of huffpost uk)

    leak so may not be mooted rather than definite but still a level of absurdity hard to overstate

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    I am now officially burned out on brexit.

    I'd get angry about the flaccid sack of shit being so transparently duplicitous but people are gonna swallow that right up and blame everyone and everything else when things inevitably get worse.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    You Know What, formerly known as Brexit.

    I'm also burnt out on the whole thing, ever since the results of the elections had come in. Before I felt that Brexit was the main problem, now it's just one of many things that are shitty. It's difficult not to feel resigned, at least from the safe distance I'm at. I don't know what it's like for those of you in the UK, but from what I've heard of friends who live there, they also feel numb.

    And then there's most of my family over there who probably are more than happy with the results. Can't say I much feel the need to talk to them about it.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    So the Tories have gone from claiming the EU are Nazis to Don’t Mention The War.

    Huh. I’m not even sure why I’m so surprised.

  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    The Johnson Withdrawal an acceptable British substitute?

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
    Law and Order ≠ Justice
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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    You Know What, formerly known as Brexit.

    I'm also burnt out on the whole thing, ever since the results of the elections had come in. Before I felt that Brexit was the main problem, now it's just one of many things that are shitty. It's difficult not to feel resigned, at least from the safe distance I'm at. I don't know what it's like for those of you in the UK, but from what I've heard of friends who live there, they also feel numb.

    And then there's most of my family over there who probably are more than happy with the results. Can't say I much feel the need to talk to them about it.

    There's a reason Get Brexit Done was used as a slogan. Everyone's just fed up of this shit and wants it to be over.

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Do not talk about The Event.
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    The Johnson Withdrawal an acceptable British substitute?
    Sounds like a Ludblum novel.

    klemming on
    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    The Johnson Withdrawal an acceptable British substitute?

    He obviously couldn't do that either.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    The Johnson Withdrawal an acceptable British substitute?

    He obviously couldn't do that either.

    No, that's why he has so many children that he isn't quite sure of their numbers.

  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    The Johnson Withdrawal an acceptable British substitute?

    He obviously couldn't do that either.

    No, that's why he has so many children that he isn't quite sure of their numbers.

    that's_the_joke.jpg

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Twitter random but the clip is from the Today programme this morning. The MP is Claudia Webbe, a Corbyn loyalist given a nice safe seat, and the question was asking her why she said the Labour manifesto was popular given Labour lost horribly. You could easily give an answer such as well it maybe had too much in it, the manifesto was popular but the leadership wasn't, etc, but if you don't want to besmirch the name of Corbyn by criticising him or his manifesto you have to do something else. Have a listen if you want to know whether Labour are getting their shit together.

  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Nothing about how Labour is handling this loss makes me think that they're going to have their shit together within the next decade.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    who knows. everything will look totally different in 3 months

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I think it's really normal for a political party to have a period of freaking out a lot after such a historic loss. They don't know what to make of it any more than we do.

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    Corbyn staying on doesn't seem normal in a wider European context

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited December 2019
    I think it's really normal for a political party to have a period of freaking out a lot after such a historic loss. They don't know what to make of it any more than we do.

    Usually the leader says sorry immediately and phones up all the losing candidates to commiserate, falls on their sword and takes all the blame so the next leader has a clear run at things. The party freaks out, but it freaks out without the dead hand of the leader trying to control things.

    This time he apologised only several days after blaming the media for the loss, claimed to have "won the argument", hadn't phoned any losing candidate and wants everyone to "reflect". McDonnell said "blame me", which is noble of him, but apparently beyond the person actually leading the party, who wants to stay on for a bit and make sure the next leader is the right leader while cutting about with a face like thunder when called on to perform the duties he refuses to relinquish.

    Bogart on
This discussion has been closed.