Which actually makes this even stupider; like I could see some rebel getting trigger happy firing on anything that passed into their airspace, but I would have assumed that a trained SAM operator would have been able to look at the eleveation and speed of the plane and determine that it wasn't a military asset.
Which actually makes this even stupider; like I could see some rebel getting trigger happy firing on anything that passed into their airspace, but I would have assumed that a trained SAM operator would have been able to look at the eleveation and speed of the plane and determine that it wasn't a military asset.
Which actually makes this even stupider; like I could see some rebel getting trigger happy firing on anything that passed into their airspace, but I would have assumed that a trained SAM operator would have been able to look at the eleveation and speed of the plane and determine that it wasn't a military asset.
Ask Iran about that.
Takeoff is different from cruising, and Russia didn't just bomb a US airbase.
Which actually makes this even stupider; like I could see some rebel getting trigger happy firing on anything that passed into their airspace, but I would have assumed that a trained SAM operator would have been able to look at the eleveation and speed of the plane and determine that it wasn't a military asset.
Ask Iran about that.
Takeoff is different from cruising, and Russia didn't just bomb a US airbase.
Doesn't matter. If the expectation is a well-trained operator, the surrounding context shouldn't make a difference.
Which actually makes this even stupider; like I could see some rebel getting trigger happy firing on anything that passed into their airspace, but I would have assumed that a trained SAM operator would have been able to look at the eleveation and speed of the plane and determine that it wasn't a military asset.
Well I mean, look at what happened with that Iranian SAM recently, or the Vinson back in the day
At the end of the day, it's a computer programmed to provide information to a person. If the programming gets it wrong, or the person makes the wrong decision etc, then this will happen. Fuck-ups happen all the time, in all jobs etc. When your job is Russian SAM operator in a warzone and there's a civilian aircraft overhead your fuck-up is just vastly, horrifically more terminal than most.
Which actually makes this even stupider; like I could see some rebel getting trigger happy firing on anything that passed into their airspace, but I would have assumed that a trained SAM operator would have been able to look at the eleveation and speed of the plane and determine that it wasn't a military asset.
Ask Iran about that.
I dunno how well the situations overlap.
In that situation Iran's air defenses were manned by personnel who (1) would have been certain, absolutely certain, that the US was going to start attacking them that very evening, (2) knew the US starts those kinds of campaigns by hitting command and control facilities in and around the capital, and (3) knew that those campaigns for the last thirty years have always started by hitting air defenses. It was an absolute colossal fuckup, yes, but it was one committed by people in an incredibly tense situation who would have been feeling pretty "confident" that the weight of the Pentagon was coming to land on them, personally, in the immediate future. That's the kind of situation tailor-made to generate some terrible mistakes.
Aside from helicopters, the air war in Ukraine has barely been a thing through the whole mess. That particular flavor of pressure-dread just wasn't present.
Afghan conflict: US and Taliban sign deal to end 18-year war
The US and the Taliban have signed an "agreement for bringing peace" to Afghanistan after more than 18 years of conflict.
The US and Nato allies have agreed to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.
President Trump said the US was "working to finally end America's longest war and bring our troops back home".
Talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban are due to follow.
US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and leaders of the hardline Islamic movement attended the signing ceremony in Doha in Qatar.
Under the agreement, the militants also agreed not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.
This is an historical moment. Also, Trump going to visit India right before this means that the US likely picked India instead of Pakistan as the country to support.
Afghan conflict: US and Taliban sign deal to end 18-year war
The US and the Taliban have signed an "agreement for bringing peace" to Afghanistan after more than 18 years of conflict.
The US and Nato allies have agreed to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.
President Trump said the US was "working to finally end America's longest war and bring our troops back home".
Talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban are due to follow.
US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and leaders of the hardline Islamic movement attended the signing ceremony in Doha in Qatar.
Under the agreement, the militants also agreed not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.
This is an historical moment. Also, Trump going to visit India right before this means that the US likely picked India instead of Pakistan as the country to support.
Two thoughts.
First, I have zero faith in the taliban not simply crushing the government in kabul and going right back to pre-war draconian policies.
Second, Of course trump is going to support a country that has made oppressing muslims a core policy.
It's not yet the end, but if it's followed through, could be the beginning of the end. This agreement isn't a full withdrawal but brings the troops down to the levels they were in 2017, and starts talks about what the withdrawal of those 8,000 troops will look like (Americans want to keep some special forces indefinitely).
So did the Vietcong. Do you have a better idea? Because "forever war" is not a better idea.
I didn't know that I wasn't allow to express disappointment with the state of things without having to present alternative solutions.
My "better idea" would have had to have been to actually have gone in almost twenty years ago with concrete goals and a genuine plan to establish a government that is run by and for the population of the country so that the population will have faith in them and not view them as an extension of foreign invaders, rather than just going "this is where bin Laden is, right? Let's go get him." and not giving a shit about the geopolitical consequences of it all.
Kind of like how my idea would have been to not snub Ho Chi Minh's requests for ending colonial oppression of the Vietnamese people and essentially forcing him to turn communist because no one else would listen to his appeals.
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
I’m glad this war is winding down finally. Reminder that Vietnam wasn’t a peaceful nation after the US withdrawal either, it invaded Cambodia before being invaded by China, and only really started to turn around by the 90s. This is a step towards stability though and I hope the international community doesn’t abandon Afghanistan the way they did after the Soviet withdrawal. Overall though, I’m glad the US military is finally preparing to leave.
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Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Two things that are making the news over here in the UK in relation to this news which I wonder is being shared over in the States are:
The Taliban themselves are saying that this means they've won.
The Afghan Government wasn't involved in these talks at all, at the request of the Taliban. Talks between the Taliban and Kabul start at some time in the future, but I'd guess probably at least after the US withdrawal is complete in 20 weeks time.
I’m glad this war is winding down finally. Reminder that Vietnam wasn’t a peaceful nation after the US withdrawal either, it invaded Cambodia before being invaded by China, and only really started to turn around by the 90s. This is a step towards stability though and I hope the international community doesn’t abandon Afghanistan the way they did after the Soviet withdrawal. Overall though, I’m glad the US military is finally preparing to leave.
The Cambodian invasion is more complicated than invasion bad, and hard to disentangle from America's own war against Cambodia and the genocide which the vietnamese intervention stopped
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I’m glad this war is winding down finally. Reminder that Vietnam wasn’t a peaceful nation after the US withdrawal either, it invaded Cambodia before being invaded by China, and only really started to turn around by the 90s. This is a step towards stability though and I hope the international community doesn’t abandon Afghanistan the way they did after the Soviet withdrawal. Overall though, I’m glad the US military is finally preparing to leave.
The Cambodian invasion is more complicated than invasion bad, and hard to disentangle from America's own war against Cambodia and the genocide which the vietnamese intervention stopped
Also, Vietnam and China have been fighting for about 1000 years or so.
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
I’m glad this war is winding down finally. Reminder that Vietnam wasn’t a peaceful nation after the US withdrawal either, it invaded Cambodia before being invaded by China, and only really started to turn around by the 90s. This is a step towards stability though and I hope the international community doesn’t abandon Afghanistan the way they did after the Soviet withdrawal. Overall though, I’m glad the US military is finally preparing to leave.
The Cambodian invasion is more complicated than invasion bad, and hard to disentangle from America's own war against Cambodia and the genocide which the vietnamese intervention stopped
Oh I wasn’t implying the Khmer Rouge was a good regime, it’s another example of how US intervention creates situations far worse and complicated where the majority of suffering is felt by average normal people
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
So did the Vietcong. Do you have a better idea? Because "forever war" is not a better idea.
I didn't know that I wasn't allow to express disappointment with the state of things without having to present alternative solutions.
My "better idea" would have had to have been to actually have gone in almost twenty years ago with concrete goals and a genuine plan to establish a government that is run by and for the population of the country so that the population will have faith in them and not view them as an extension of foreign invaders, rather than just going "this is where bin Laden is, right? Let's go get him." and not giving a shit about the geopolitical consequences of it all.
Kind of like how my idea would have been to not snub Ho Chi Minh's requests for ending colonial oppression of the Vietnamese people and essentially forcing him to turn communist because no one else would listen to his appeals.
Man I don't know that doubling down on it has better results. Maybe just a less occupation based, more "go get Bin Laden" tactic but I'm sure there are reasons why we didn't elect for that. I'm not sure there is a universe in where the US occupying Afghanistan is something where we look back and say "You know what? That was really great!"
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A lot of very impressive open source intelligence gathering by Bellingcat went into that conclusion
The Malayasia bound commercial flight shot down over Ukraine in 2014.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Looks like I owe the rebels a apology, since I'd assumed it was them playing around with some soviet leftovers.
Nope, looks like I get to blame the Russia for one more stupid thing.
Ask Iran about that.
Takeoff is different from cruising, and Russia didn't just bomb a US airbase.
Doesn't matter. If the expectation is a well-trained operator, the surrounding context shouldn't make a difference.
Well I mean, look at what happened with that Iranian SAM recently, or the Vinson back in the day
At the end of the day, it's a computer programmed to provide information to a person. If the programming gets it wrong, or the person makes the wrong decision etc, then this will happen. Fuck-ups happen all the time, in all jobs etc. When your job is Russian SAM operator in a warzone and there's a civilian aircraft overhead your fuck-up is just vastly, horrifically more terminal than most.
I dunno how well the situations overlap.
In that situation Iran's air defenses were manned by personnel who (1) would have been certain, absolutely certain, that the US was going to start attacking them that very evening, (2) knew the US starts those kinds of campaigns by hitting command and control facilities in and around the capital, and (3) knew that those campaigns for the last thirty years have always started by hitting air defenses. It was an absolute colossal fuckup, yes, but it was one committed by people in an incredibly tense situation who would have been feeling pretty "confident" that the weight of the Pentagon was coming to land on them, personally, in the immediate future. That's the kind of situation tailor-made to generate some terrible mistakes.
Aside from helicopters, the air war in Ukraine has barely been a thing through the whole mess. That particular flavor of pressure-dread just wasn't present.
Is the official line still that they're "on vacation" and they can't control where people take vacation?
The Russian Army has surprisingly lax rules about taking office supplies for personal use.
Honestly, the appropriate response to that should have been "So you're admitting your leadership is incompetent?"
This is an historical moment. Also, Trump going to visit India right before this means that the US likely picked India instead of Pakistan as the country to support.
Two thoughts.
First, I have zero faith in the taliban not simply crushing the government in kabul and going right back to pre-war draconian policies.
Second, Of course trump is going to support a country that has made oppressing muslims a core policy.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
So did the Vietcong. Do you have a better idea? Because "forever war" is not a better idea.
A better system of protections for ensuring the safety of the people who are liable to be persecuted would be good.
Or announcing that they'd be willing to offer sanctuary to anyone who wants to claim refugee status.
Because yeah: shit's gonna get ugly the instant the taliban don't have NATO in the room.
It's not yet the end, but if it's followed through, could be the beginning of the end. This agreement isn't a full withdrawal but brings the troops down to the levels they were in 2017, and starts talks about what the withdrawal of those 8,000 troops will look like (Americans want to keep some special forces indefinitely).
Shah Mahmood Qureshi is the Pakistani Foreign Minister.
January 2021 is before that point so if a Democrat wins in November you could potential see some considerations made.
There IS a valid point that the right-wing-o-sphere would be foaming at the mouth if Obama was doing it, but that's not Bolton's main argument.
Never one to let a slight unanswered, Trump answers:
Elizabeth Landers is a DC correspondent for VICE.
I didn't know that I wasn't allow to express disappointment with the state of things without having to present alternative solutions.
My "better idea" would have had to have been to actually have gone in almost twenty years ago with concrete goals and a genuine plan to establish a government that is run by and for the population of the country so that the population will have faith in them and not view them as an extension of foreign invaders, rather than just going "this is where bin Laden is, right? Let's go get him." and not giving a shit about the geopolitical consequences of it all.
Kind of like how my idea would have been to not snub Ho Chi Minh's requests for ending colonial oppression of the Vietnamese people and essentially forcing him to turn communist because no one else would listen to his appeals.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
The Taliban themselves are saying that this means they've won.
The Afghan Government wasn't involved in these talks at all, at the request of the Taliban. Talks between the Taliban and Kabul start at some time in the future, but I'd guess probably at least after the US withdrawal is complete in 20 weeks time.
The Cambodian invasion is more complicated than invasion bad, and hard to disentangle from America's own war against Cambodia and the genocide which the vietnamese intervention stopped
Also, Vietnam and China have been fighting for about 1000 years or so.
Oh I wasn’t implying the Khmer Rouge was a good regime, it’s another example of how US intervention creates situations far worse and complicated where the majority of suffering is felt by average normal people
Man I don't know that doubling down on it has better results. Maybe just a less occupation based, more "go get Bin Laden" tactic but I'm sure there are reasons why we didn't elect for that. I'm not sure there is a universe in where the US occupying Afghanistan is something where we look back and say "You know what? That was really great!"
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar