What's the exact mechanism? Who gives a shit. It's not important to the story.
No, the mechanism matters enormously because the last time we saw the Emperor, he was a fucking cloud of vapor rapidly expanding to fill his breakfast command nook. How the fuck he overcomes that to be physically embodied at the very end of a 9-part story when there has been zero mention or indication of anybody actually being able to do that is a plot hole big enough to swallow the entire saga. And as been said a ridiculous number of times at this point, movie elements that require external materials to fill the gaps in their writing are shitty movie elements. Not to mention that it was a plot point straight-up stolen from the EU and it wasn't even a good plot point in the first place. So not only is it a massive, massive writing flaw, it's also a ripoff.
I must have imagined seeing 3 other people (and a mention of a fourth) overcoming death in some fashion prior to RoS, then.
Edit: I'm talking about force ghosts, if that wasn't clear.
If Plapatine had been a force ghost Abrams might have had a leg to stand on regarding his return.
Turns out Palpatine is unkillable. Did Rey actually kill him? We don't know!
You're right. That's why ESB is complete trash. Where did the whole force ghost thing come from? If only Ben had stayed a disembodied voice possibly heard or possibly imagined as in ANH, then ESB would have a leg to stand on.
If the force ghosts in ESB showed up at the start of the movie absolutely unchanged from their mortal form to replace Luke as the main protagonists yeah it'd be pretty awful.
Your complaint was that new, unexplained powers showed up in a new movie with no explanation. By that criterion, both RoS and ESB is total garbage. Don't move the goalposts.
Furthermore, Palpatine is not "completely unchanged". He's clearly stuck to his giant life support machine, and his body is half-rotted away. He only has indirect power over anything but his immediate surroundings, and he can barely move.
And by your complaint about a new antagonist, RotJ is garbage, since there the Emperor is the main antagonist rather than Vader (ESB) or Tarkin (ANH).
Sic transit gloria mundi.
+2
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
Palps comes back off-screen in the opening text crawl after a 2 movie break.
I mean yeah, that part was pretty trash, and RoS is a generally chaotic mess with some plot points in isolation and performances that I like a bunch.
But all this discussion about it being totally ridiculous that he came back from the dead and that you need supplemental material for that not to be an asspull?
Nah. It's in one of his most famous monologues in a previous movie.
Palps comes back off-screen in the opening text crawl after a 2 movie break.
I mean yeah, that part was pretty trash, and RoS is a generally chaotic mess with some plot points in isolation and performances that I like a bunch.
But all this discussion about it being totally ridiculous that he came back from the dead and that you need supplemental material for that not to be an asspull?
Nah. It's in one of his most famous monologues in a previous movie.
The death star itself is in fantastic shape for having exploded and crashed from orbit 30 years ago.
Zombie palps is not my preferred direction for the story but it's not an asspull in context.
Just fucking dumb its resolved via opening crawl.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Palps comes back off-screen in the opening text crawl after a 2 movie break.
I mean yeah, that part was pretty trash, and RoS is a generally chaotic mess with some plot points in isolation and performances that I like a bunch.
But all this discussion about it being totally ridiculous that he came back from the dead and that you need supplemental material for that not to be an asspull?
Nah. It's in one of his most famous monologues in a previous movie.
The death star itself is in fantastic shape for having exploded and crashed from orbit 30 years ago.
Zombie palps is not my preferred direction for the story but it's not an asspull in context.
Just fucking dumb its resolved via opening crawl.
Hey.
Hey now.
Hey.
They explained Palpatine's return in Fortnite, not the opening crawl. Gosh, get your facts together.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
What's the exact mechanism? Who gives a shit. It's not important to the story.
No, the mechanism matters enormously because the last time we saw the Emperor, he was a fucking cloud of vapor rapidly expanding to fill his breakfast command nook. How the fuck he overcomes that to be physically embodied at the very end of a 9-part story when there has been zero mention or indication of anybody actually being able to do that is a plot hole big enough to swallow the entire saga. And as been said a ridiculous number of times at this point, movie elements that require external materials to fill the gaps in their writing are shitty movie elements. Not to mention that it was a plot point straight-up stolen from the EU and it wasn't even a good plot point in the first place. So not only is it a massive, massive writing flaw, it's also a ripoff.
I must have imagined seeing 3 other people (and a mention of a fourth) overcoming death in some fashion prior to RoS, then.
Edit: I'm talking about force ghosts, if that wasn't clear.
If Plapatine had been a force ghost Abrams might have had a leg to stand on regarding his return.
Turns out Palpatine is unkillable. Did Rey actually kill him? We don't know!
You're right. That's why ESB is complete trash. Where did the whole force ghost thing come from? If only Ben had stayed a disembodied voice possibly heard or possibly imagined as in ANH, then ESB would have a leg to stand on.
If the force ghosts in ESB showed up at the start of the movie absolutely unchanged from their mortal form to replace Luke as the main protagonists yeah it'd be pretty awful.
Your complaint was that new, unexplained powers showed up in a new movie with no explanation. By that criterion, both RoS and ESB is total garbage. Don't move the goalposts.
Furthermore, Palpatine is not "completely unchanged". He's clearly stuck to his giant life support machine, and his body is half-rotted away. He only has indirect power over anything but his immediate surroundings, and he can barely move.
And by your complaint about a new antagonist, RotJ is garbage, since there the Emperor is the main antagonist rather than Vader (ESB) or Tarkin (ANH).
My issue isn't a new development. My issue is a new development that doesn't track with the plot in any way. He's been cloning himself for however many decades with no rush to change it until something something dark side.
Also is he clearly stuck to it? He was clearly dead in ESB but turns out he never was. Maybe it's just yet another fake out he can hop right off at any point. Maybe there's a thousand more of him hanging out on other planets faffing about with a pile of even deadlier pseudo death stars for no apparent reason.
All for his 60 year plan to have a grandchild grow up alone, be a force prodigy, track down a Jedi no one else could find, keep some books in a last-minute decision, use those books to go to a planet where a friend of someone who happened to be on her crew sought them out and showed them where to go, fall in to some quicksand, fight and kill a giant worm with a knife with unreadable text on it, get the text translated by a droid simultaneously programmed to understand Sith but also forbidden from doing so, use the information to land in the exact spot outside of a destroyed ship that perfectly matches the shape of a knife, get a space Garmin, lose the space Garmin, steal another space Garmin, and show up with only a single lightsaber. Which for some reason is superior to just letting Kylo strike him down in anger at the start of the movie.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
Killing Snoke in the manner he was killed - with no idea of who he his beyond generically evil - was a mistake. But the answer to that mistake isn't to make two more - bringing Palpatine back and redeeming Kylo Ren.
Ultimately, this is what happens when there's no collaboration between filmmakers. Compare that to The Mandalorian, where not only were Filoni and Favreau on set all the time, but the other directors, too, bouncing ideas off one another. Not that The Mandalorian is perfect, but it is cohesive.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
Snoke sucks shit ::Sheev voice:: dew it
+4
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
What's the exact mechanism? Who gives a shit. It's not important to the story.
No, the mechanism matters enormously because the last time we saw the Emperor, he was a fucking cloud of vapor rapidly expanding to fill his breakfast command nook. How the fuck he overcomes that to be physically embodied at the very end of a 9-part story when there has been zero mention or indication of anybody actually being able to do that is a plot hole big enough to swallow the entire saga. And as been said a ridiculous number of times at this point, movie elements that require external materials to fill the gaps in their writing are shitty movie elements. Not to mention that it was a plot point straight-up stolen from the EU and it wasn't even a good plot point in the first place. So not only is it a massive, massive writing flaw, it's also a ripoff.
I must have imagined seeing 3 other people (and a mention of a fourth) overcoming death in some fashion prior to RoS, then.
Edit: I'm talking about force ghosts, if that wasn't clear.
If Plapatine had been a force ghost Abrams might have had a leg to stand on regarding his return.
Turns out Palpatine is unkillable. Did Rey actually kill him? We don't know!
You're right. That's why ESB is complete trash. Where did the whole force ghost thing come from? If only Ben had stayed a disembodied voice possibly heard or possibly imagined as in ANH, then ESB would have a leg to stand on.
If the force ghosts in ESB showed up at the start of the movie absolutely unchanged from their mortal form to replace Luke as the main protagonists yeah it'd be pretty awful.
Your complaint was that new, unexplained powers showed up in a new movie with no explanation. By that criterion, both RoS and ESB is total garbage. Don't move the goalposts.
Furthermore, Palpatine is not "completely unchanged". He's clearly stuck to his giant life support machine, and his body is half-rotted away. He only has indirect power over anything but his immediate surroundings, and he can barely move.
And by your complaint about a new antagonist, RotJ is garbage, since there the Emperor is the main antagonist rather than Vader (ESB) or Tarkin (ANH).
My issue isn't a new development. My issue is a new development that doesn't track with the plot in any way. He's been cloning himself for however many decades with no rush to change it until something something dark side.
Also is he clearly stuck to it? He was clearly dead in ESB but turns out he never was. Maybe it's just yet another fake out he can hop right off at any point. Maybe there's a thousand more of him hanging out on other planets faffing about with a pile of even deadlier pseudo death stars for no apparent reason.
All for his 60 year plan to have a grandchild grow up alone, be a force prodigy, track down a Jedi no one else could find, keep some books in a last-minute decision, use those books to go to a planet where a friend of someone who happened to be on her crew sought them out and showed them where to go, fall in to some quicksand, fight and kill a giant worm with a knife with unreadable text on it, get the text translated by a droid simultaneously programmed to understand Sith but also forbidden from doing so, use the information to land in the exact spot outside of a destroyed ship that perfectly matches the shape of a knife, get a space Garmin, lose the space Garmin, steal another space Garmin, and show up with only a single lightsaber. Which for some reason is superior to just letting Kylo strike him down in anger at the start of the movie.
It's bad writing, through and through.
The idea of some ancient Sith tripping balls and crafting a dagger based on a vision of the far off future is great and entirely on brand for Star Wars.
+5
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think the bigger problem was that they killed off Snoke without a clear plan of who was going to replace him. Kylo is the obvious new bad guy, but someone decided that they needed a redemption arc for him. That's not really Johnson's fault though, someone at Disney should have made sure that there was at least some vague plan in place for the three movies. That they were able to swing from the end of TLJ that was screaming Kylo goes full evil and needs killing in the next film to Kylo has been a pawn of Palpatine the entire time and eventually gets redeemed and kisses a girl makes it pretty obvious that Disney wasn't putting a lot of thought into any of this.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
Palpatine's return is ultimately stupid because it adds nothing to the story. He's not an interesting or compelling villain, nor does he fit into the conflicts established in the first two films of the trilogy. FFS he's not even leading the First Order, he's got another whole separate villain faction that got pulled from the same ass he did. You spend two films building up characters and their conflicts, it's stupid to ditch all that in favour of a completely new thing at the last minute.
Snoke ordering Kylo to take off his helmet, and the later smashing thereof. It really laid the groundwork for "we're not going to follow the path you think we are". You can definitely criticise the path they followed, but I thought that was a good start.
Snoke ordering Kylo to take off his helmet, and the later smashing thereof. It really laid the groundwork for "we're not going to follow the path you think we are". You can definitely criticise the path they followed, but I thought that was a good start.
And you know TROS's agenda the second the hard reverse course on that within the first few minutes. All aboard the HMS Retcon-the-last-film, toot toot!
Snoke ordering Kylo to take off his helmet, and the later smashing thereof. It really laid the groundwork for "we're not going to follow the path you think we are". You can definitely criticise the path they followed, but I thought that was a good start.
And you know TROS's agenda the second the hard reverse course on that within the first few minutes. All aboard the HMS Retcon-the-last-film, toot toot!
"She is not who she seems" was a very big alarm bell for me.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
That would hold a lot more weight if Johnson wrote the third movie. Instead we got the middle part to a totally different, mostly unaired trilogy in TLJ.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
That would hold a lot more weight if Johnson wrote the third movie. Instead we got the middle part to a totally different, mostly unaired trilogy in TLJ.
If Snoke was such a compelling villain then why didn't Abrams bring him back to life instead of Palpatine?
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
That would hold a lot more weight if Johnson wrote the third movie. Instead we got the middle part to a totally different, mostly unaired trilogy in TLJ.
Sadly Johnson cannot predict the future. Yes, the trilogy would have worked better if JJ had just followed the first rule of improv and said "Yes, and". That doesn't change the fact that switching out Snoke for Kylo Ren is a clear upgrade in terms of interest and dramatic potential.
Missed story opportunity: Make Hux hyper competent and have him die due to Kylos Luke-induced tantrum.
Hux has the kind of low-cunning where him turning on Kylo Ren at a critical moment would have made sense in the final ST film.
You know, in a way that was smart and established and necessary to the story and not the shit we got instead.
Honestly I wish they had paired him with a Sith bootlicking incompetent and after Hux gets rage killed for calling Kylo a moron the military campaign of the First Order falls apart.
RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
Come Overwatch with meeeee
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
That would hold a lot more weight if Johnson wrote the third movie. Instead we got the middle part to a totally different, mostly unaired trilogy in TLJ.
Sadly Johnson cannot predict the future. Yes, the trilogy would have worked better if JJ had just followed the first rule of improv and said "Yes, and". That doesn't change the fact that switching out Snoke for Kylo Ren is a clear upgrade in terms of interest and dramatic potential.
Besides JJs personal issues (and Terrio), the fact that Johnson needed to predict the future is probably the biggest issue with the story we got- they made it up as they went vs having someone at the top tell them the overall story arc
+5
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
One thing that really frustrated me was that JJ clearly had no idea why Palps was so willing to be 'struck down' by Luke in RotJ.
It wasn't so he could bodyswap with the nincompoop and rule the universe as a 20something, it was because by trying to do so Luke would fall to the dark side. Particularly he would have to kill Vader first and then Luke would be full darkside and Palps could control him. Shit, the second Luke actually makes a move on Palps, Vader blocks it with his saber and Palpy is just smirking like a jackass.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
+23
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
First off, the movies don't even say who is Palpatine's master. The closest the movie gets is having Palpatine mention Plageuis getting the old midnight lightsaber surprise which, for the Sith, is about as specific as saying "that one Sith with the red lightsaber and bad temper". You could say "and the Sith apprentice betrayed his master" and cover most of Sith history. Palpatine's vague story sounds like something out of bad fan fiction to anyone not desperately trying to avoid their wife dying. It would also take Anakin about five seconds to Google that shit back at the archive, and the Jedi would have zero reason to make that information secret because they aren't into the Jedi thing to physically live forever; censoring that info would mean just censoring all Sith info ever for fear of Jedi being even slightly tempted by a different character build.
Second, Sith are bad guys and they lie. They lie all the fucking time. Their slogan is pretty much "I'd say I won't lie to you, but that would be a lie." What's the first thing Palpatine does after building Vader? He lies right to Vader's shiny new face. I don't know if they have a conversation in the OT where they both don't lie to each other. The Jedi don't even mind a useful deception in their own ranks, and they're supposed to be the good guys. Palpatine doesn't say he personally knows jack shit about how said Sith overcame death, only that a Sith managed to do it. The whole speech is oozing with typical generic crap meant to hook an idiot fish desperate for a lifeline. It's very clear at the time that the audience is supposed to know Palpatine is full of shit and is pulling the wool over Anakin's eyes.
Third, there is zero indication in the eight prior fucking films that the Sith actually possess any kind of technique comparable to the Jedi becoming Force ghosts, either via physical survival or some sort of techno-assisted afterlife. However, the very first SW film shows that Jedi can pop over to be a Force ghost with a little preparation, which is what every following Jedi that becomes a ghost has enough time to do before dying.
As plot points go, Palpatine's return is pulled so deeply out of one ass that you have to reach into another ass to find it. It's just a recursive pile of out-of-ass-pulling, all the way down.
+8
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
It's wild to me that you would demand a series of 2-3 hour long movies explain everything and get mad when it's pointed out that supplemental materials have more information. The seeds were there. I'm in agreement that the execution largely sucked but nerds were never going to be happy with new Star Wars.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
That would hold a lot more weight if Johnson wrote the third movie. Instead we got the middle part to a totally different, mostly unaired trilogy in TLJ.
Sadly Johnson cannot predict the future. Yes, the trilogy would have worked better if JJ had just followed the first rule of improv and said "Yes, and". That doesn't change the fact that switching out Snoke for Kylo Ren is a clear upgrade in terms of interest and dramatic potential.
Besides JJs personal issues (and Terrio), the fact that Johnson needed to predict the future is probably the biggest issue with the story we got- they made it up as they went vs having someone at the top tell them the overall story arc
But Johnson didn't need to predict the future. You don't have to plan a whole trilogy out for it to work. The OT certainly wasn't. All you have to do is say "Yes and". To build on what's come before and find a way to tie it all together.
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
That would hold a lot more weight if Johnson wrote the third movie. Instead we got the middle part to a totally different, mostly unaired trilogy in TLJ.
Sadly Johnson cannot predict the future. Yes, the trilogy would have worked better if JJ had just followed the first rule of improv and said "Yes, and". That doesn't change the fact that switching out Snoke for Kylo Ren is a clear upgrade in terms of interest and dramatic potential.
Besides JJs personal issues (and Terrio), the fact that Johnson needed to predict the future is probably the biggest issue with the story we got- they made it up as they went vs having someone at the top tell them the overall story arc
But Johnson didn't need to predict the future. You don't have to plan a whole trilogy out for it to work. The OT certainly wasn't. All you have to do is say "Yes and". To build on what's come before and find a way to tie it all together.
Yeah sure, I agree
And it would have been good for someone to get the directors and writers on the same page about the main story:)
Like it wasn't remotely hard to close enough of the threads and close the trilogy in a way that left people enthusiastic with the future.
Like I'm super glad that Filoni seems to be on his way to being the next Feige because that future is a lot fucking brighter then the present Abrams regime.
Also I hope the Rian Johnson trilogy materializes at some point. If there's one place that Star Wars as an epic differs from the Marvel universe is that it's better served from a story being told by one creative team then rather then the more serialized nature of comics/the MCU.
RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
Come Overwatch with meeeee
1. Large swathes of the old EU were terrible. That includes Palpatine being written as an omnipotent, omniscient force of nature with plans within plans, playing 9 dimensional chess with the galaxy while everyone else plays checkers.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
That would hold a lot more weight if Johnson wrote the third movie. Instead we got the middle part to a totally different, mostly unaired trilogy in TLJ.
Sadly Johnson cannot predict the future. Yes, the trilogy would have worked better if JJ had just followed the first rule of improv and said "Yes, and". That doesn't change the fact that switching out Snoke for Kylo Ren is a clear upgrade in terms of interest and dramatic potential.
Besides JJs personal issues (and Terrio), the fact that Johnson needed to predict the future is probably the biggest issue with the story we got- they made it up as they went vs having someone at the top tell them the overall story arc
But Johnson didn't need to predict the future. You don't have to plan a whole trilogy out for it to work. The OT certainly wasn't. All you have to do is say "Yes and". To build on what's come before and find a way to tie it all together.
Johnson apparently had to predict the future because Abrams threw out a ton of his work.
A huge difference between the gentle retcons that happened in between ANH and ESB - retcons only really necessary because they suddenly had a greenlight to tell a larger story.
The fact that in the Disney age we were always getting a trilogy - the entire cast could have died in a plane crash between filming 8 and 9 and they would have dealt with it - means it's stupid to not plan the bones of the three movie narrative before filming a single scene
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Like if Stark comes back I will be very loudly and ignorantly shitting up the MCU threads too just like I ruin this thread
Short of getting a Stark cameo via time travel shenanigans or a pre death message to Parker or his daughter it will basically cut the nuts off of any narrative going forward.
They left a much bigger for Evans to come back through obviously (a cameo that has him kicking the shit out of some Hydra lackeys as an old man would be good times).
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Honestly, I think if it was just that line, it would be...okay? Poe’s line is the one that I take issue with.
I could also see a version where the audience knows that Sheev is back but it’s a mystery to the heroes working.
Your complaint was that new, unexplained powers showed up in a new movie with no explanation. By that criterion, both RoS and ESB is total garbage. Don't move the goalposts.
Furthermore, Palpatine is not "completely unchanged". He's clearly stuck to his giant life support machine, and his body is half-rotted away. He only has indirect power over anything but his immediate surroundings, and he can barely move.
And by your complaint about a new antagonist, RotJ is garbage, since there the Emperor is the main antagonist rather than Vader (ESB) or Tarkin (ANH).
I mean yeah, that part was pretty trash, and RoS is a generally chaotic mess with some plot points in isolation and performances that I like a bunch.
But all this discussion about it being totally ridiculous that he came back from the dead and that you need supplemental material for that not to be an asspull?
Nah. It's in one of his most famous monologues in a previous movie.
The death star itself is in fantastic shape for having exploded and crashed from orbit 30 years ago.
Zombie palps is not my preferred direction for the story but it's not an asspull in context.
Just fucking dumb its resolved via opening crawl.
Hey.
Hey now.
Hey.
They explained Palpatine's return in Fortnite, not the opening crawl. Gosh, get your facts together.
2. Palpatine's return in RoS is utterly unnecessary. The trilogy already had a villain. His name was Kylo Ren.
Maybe there’s a little blame to be laid at Johnson’s feet for unceremoniously killing off the big bad in pt2 of the trilogy before we ever learned anything about him
There’s a good chance I’m going to remove Snoke entirely from my project. Dunno yet.
My issue isn't a new development. My issue is a new development that doesn't track with the plot in any way. He's been cloning himself for however many decades with no rush to change it until something something dark side.
Also is he clearly stuck to it? He was clearly dead in ESB but turns out he never was. Maybe it's just yet another fake out he can hop right off at any point. Maybe there's a thousand more of him hanging out on other planets faffing about with a pile of even deadlier pseudo death stars for no apparent reason.
All for his 60 year plan to have a grandchild grow up alone, be a force prodigy, track down a Jedi no one else could find, keep some books in a last-minute decision, use those books to go to a planet where a friend of someone who happened to be on her crew sought them out and showed them where to go, fall in to some quicksand, fight and kill a giant worm with a knife with unreadable text on it, get the text translated by a droid simultaneously programmed to understand Sith but also forbidden from doing so, use the information to land in the exact spot outside of a destroyed ship that perfectly matches the shape of a knife, get a space Garmin, lose the space Garmin, steal another space Garmin, and show up with only a single lightsaber. Which for some reason is superior to just letting Kylo strike him down in anger at the start of the movie.
It's bad writing, through and through.
Killing Snoke in the manner he was killed - with no idea of who he his beyond generically evil - was a mistake. But the answer to that mistake isn't to make two more - bringing Palpatine back and redeeming Kylo Ren.
Ultimately, this is what happens when there's no collaboration between filmmakers. Compare that to The Mandalorian, where not only were Filoni and Favreau on set all the time, but the other directors, too, bouncing ideas off one another. Not that The Mandalorian is perfect, but it is cohesive.
Snoke sucks shit ::Sheev voice:: dew it
More ridiculously, he came back in a fortnite exclusive event.
The idea of some ancient Sith tripping balls and crafting a dagger based on a vision of the far off future is great and entirely on brand for Star Wars.
I think the bigger problem was that they killed off Snoke without a clear plan of who was going to replace him. Kylo is the obvious new bad guy, but someone decided that they needed a redemption arc for him. That's not really Johnson's fault though, someone at Disney should have made sure that there was at least some vague plan in place for the three movies. That they were able to swing from the end of TLJ that was screaming Kylo goes full evil and needs killing in the next film to Kylo has been a pawn of Palpatine the entire time and eventually gets redeemed and kisses a girl makes it pretty obvious that Disney wasn't putting a lot of thought into any of this.
I think in the end it's the right choice, even if some more explanation of anything about Snoke would help. I think Johnson correctly judged that Snoke is a non-entity and Kylo Ren is interesting and compelling, so he ditched the shitty villain and replaced him with a better one.
And you know TROS's agenda the second the hard reverse course on that within the first few minutes. All aboard the HMS Retcon-the-last-film, toot toot!
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If Snoke was such a compelling villain then why didn't Abrams bring him back to life instead of Palpatine?
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Sadly Johnson cannot predict the future. Yes, the trilogy would have worked better if JJ had just followed the first rule of improv and said "Yes, and". That doesn't change the fact that switching out Snoke for Kylo Ren is a clear upgrade in terms of interest and dramatic potential.
Hux has the kind of low-cunning where him turning on Kylo Ren at a critical moment would have made sense in the final ST film.
You know, in a way that was smart and established and necessary to the story and not the shit we got instead.
Honestly I wish they had paired him with a Sith bootlicking incompetent and after Hux gets rage killed for calling Kylo a moron the military campaign of the First Order falls apart.
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Besides JJs personal issues (and Terrio), the fact that Johnson needed to predict the future is probably the biggest issue with the story we got- they made it up as they went vs having someone at the top tell them the overall story arc
It wasn't so he could bodyswap with the nincompoop and rule the universe as a 20something, it was because by trying to do so Luke would fall to the dark side. Particularly he would have to kill Vader first and then Luke would be full darkside and Palps could control him. Shit, the second Luke actually makes a move on Palps, Vader blocks it with his saber and Palpy is just smirking like a jackass.
First off, the movies don't even say who is Palpatine's master. The closest the movie gets is having Palpatine mention Plageuis getting the old midnight lightsaber surprise which, for the Sith, is about as specific as saying "that one Sith with the red lightsaber and bad temper". You could say "and the Sith apprentice betrayed his master" and cover most of Sith history. Palpatine's vague story sounds like something out of bad fan fiction to anyone not desperately trying to avoid their wife dying. It would also take Anakin about five seconds to Google that shit back at the archive, and the Jedi would have zero reason to make that information secret because they aren't into the Jedi thing to physically live forever; censoring that info would mean just censoring all Sith info ever for fear of Jedi being even slightly tempted by a different character build.
Second, Sith are bad guys and they lie. They lie all the fucking time. Their slogan is pretty much "I'd say I won't lie to you, but that would be a lie." What's the first thing Palpatine does after building Vader? He lies right to Vader's shiny new face. I don't know if they have a conversation in the OT where they both don't lie to each other. The Jedi don't even mind a useful deception in their own ranks, and they're supposed to be the good guys. Palpatine doesn't say he personally knows jack shit about how said Sith overcame death, only that a Sith managed to do it. The whole speech is oozing with typical generic crap meant to hook an idiot fish desperate for a lifeline. It's very clear at the time that the audience is supposed to know Palpatine is full of shit and is pulling the wool over Anakin's eyes.
Third, there is zero indication in the eight prior fucking films that the Sith actually possess any kind of technique comparable to the Jedi becoming Force ghosts, either via physical survival or some sort of techno-assisted afterlife. However, the very first SW film shows that Jedi can pop over to be a Force ghost with a little preparation, which is what every following Jedi that becomes a ghost has enough time to do before dying.
As plot points go, Palpatine's return is pulled so deeply out of one ass that you have to reach into another ass to find it. It's just a recursive pile of out-of-ass-pulling, all the way down.
But Johnson didn't need to predict the future. You don't have to plan a whole trilogy out for it to work. The OT certainly wasn't. All you have to do is say "Yes and". To build on what's come before and find a way to tie it all together.
Yeah sure, I agree
And it would have been good for someone to get the directors and writers on the same page about the main story:)
Like it wasn't remotely hard to close enough of the threads and close the trilogy in a way that left people enthusiastic with the future.
Like I'm super glad that Filoni seems to be on his way to being the next Feige because that future is a lot fucking brighter then the present Abrams regime.
Also I hope the Rian Johnson trilogy materializes at some point. If there's one place that Star Wars as an epic differs from the Marvel universe is that it's better served from a story being told by one creative team then rather then the more serialized nature of comics/the MCU.
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Johnson apparently had to predict the future because Abrams threw out a ton of his work.
A huge difference between the gentle retcons that happened in between ANH and ESB - retcons only really necessary because they suddenly had a greenlight to tell a larger story.
The fact that in the Disney age we were always getting a trilogy - the entire cast could have died in a plane crash between filming 8 and 9 and they would have dealt with it - means it's stupid to not plan the bones of the three movie narrative before filming a single scene
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Short of getting a Stark cameo via time travel shenanigans or a pre death message to Parker or his daughter it will basically cut the nuts off of any narrative going forward.
They left a much bigger for Evans to come back through obviously (a cameo that has him kicking the shit out of some Hydra lackeys as an old man would be good times).
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