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My assumption, which could be wrong, is that a majority of video game writers are straight and so write characters from that perspective. As a straight male, and as a budding game developer and writer, I haven't felt comfortable writing from a gay perspective because I'm rather ignorant of that perspective since I don't have first hand experience. I actually avoid writing romance, even straight romance, for that very reason. That said, I don't want my future games to be straight white male protags; my fav video game character is actually Samus from Metroid and have an affinity for female protagonists. Overall though I think having a gay writer would have a much better perspective from personal life experience, and it isn't that I want to avoid writing gay characters. I suppose I'm just conflicted as I don't want to write a gay character that comes across inauthentic?
The short version is that "write what you know" means "do field research and talk to people you want to represent" and not "write only about yourself".
That's very true; I really want to avoid stereotypes. It does really come down to research and understanding
Or just hire and emphasize queer people.
This doesn't help as much as you'd think. Aside from the biggest AAA games, games are only going to have a writer. Maaaybe two at a stretch. So the majority of the writing is gone to be done by straight people regardless of how well represented queer people are. So if you want big chunk of more non-shit representation, you need that larger group to understand how to write not shit representation. The same applies for different types of queer people, as being gay doesn't magically give you understanding about trans people.
Great, step one to non queers understanding decent rep: Hire and emphasize queer folk so they can set an example.
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
For a lot of games, you can really just add it as a footnote. It's not nearly as helpful or intetesting as going in depth, but if your charcter barely has character anyways then what the hell.
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
So it's a fear of stereotyping folk they dont want to learn about/hire representatives of the group to write them properly?
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
pictured: a straight
+3
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
For a lot of games, you can really just add it as a footnote. It's not nearly as helpful or intetesting as going in depth, but if your charcter barely has character anyways then what the hell.
This is what Apex Legends did with Gibraltar, yeah
As a straight male, and as a budding game developer and writer, I haven't felt comfortable writing from a gay perspective because I'm rather ignorant of that perspective since I don't have first hand experience.
You're missing the whole point of my OP--that there is pretty much no difference other than the sex of the other partner. We don't have some super-secret culture that you have to infiltrate to portray us. We're just regular people, if you can write regular people, you can write us.
The reason representation is so bad now is because people don't do that (well, and because video game writers are terrible in general). When they think they are writing "about" gay people or gay culture (as if that is a real thing), what they are really doing is writing about stereotypes while pretending to be "progressive." And stereotypes are not particularly interesting. If I want stereotypes I'll head to a gay bar in downtown Seattle.
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
As a straight male, and as a budding game developer and writer, I haven't felt comfortable writing from a gay perspective because I'm rather ignorant of that perspective since I don't have first hand experience.
You're missing the whole point of my OP--that there is pretty much no difference other than the sex of the other partner. We don't have some super-secret culture that you have to infiltrate to portray us. We're just regular people, if you can write regular people, you can write us.
The reason representation is so bad now is because people don't do that (well, and because video game writers are terrible in general). When they think they are writing "about" gay people or gay culture (as if that is a real thing), what they are really doing is writing about stereotypes while pretending to be "progressive." And stereotypes are not particularly interesting. If I want stereotypes I'll head to a gay bar in downtown Seattle.
So, to be clear, if you want stereotypes you'll head to a real, physical gay bar? With actual gay people. Who are real and not stereotypes, but flesh and blood folk you are disparging as having relationships not like "regular people"?
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
pictured: a straight
Another straight woman from a Bioware game
What am I missing, are haircuts the secret sign? I thought it was the earring worn on the left side. Or is it the right side? Jesus H Christ, why is being gay so fucking confusing?
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
pictured: a straight
Another straight woman from a Bioware game
What am I missing, are haircuts the secret sign? I thought it was the earring worn on the left side. Or is it the right side? Jesus H Christ, why is being gay so fucking confusing?
Human culture is a never-ending pile of nonsense. When the neck of cultural norms gets cut by divergence it goes all hydra and grows a dozen new heads.
+1
Tommy2Handswhat is this where am iRegistered Userregular
To be a little more clear, when groups of people need to identify each other, they adopt cultural elements to do so, and this can become something that some members of the group seek to enforce even when the need to identify each other is less severe. It's a big huge complex thing that is really, really hard to discuss in any context so just understand that some people are very attached to specific signs even if others aren't.
--
Edit: Which means, regardless of how you feel about a given assumption, understand that these assumptions are important to some people and try to be respectful of them when it's about a group they are associated with.
As a straight male, and as a budding game developer and writer, I haven't felt comfortable writing from a gay perspective because I'm rather ignorant of that perspective since I don't have first hand experience.
You're missing the whole point of my OP--that there is pretty much no difference other than the sex of the other partner. We don't have some super-secret culture that you have to infiltrate to portray us. We're just regular people, if you can write regular people, you can write us.
The reason representation is so bad now is because people don't do that (well, and because video game writers are terrible in general). When they think they are writing "about" gay people or gay culture (as if that is a real thing), what they are really doing is writing about stereotypes while pretending to be "progressive." And stereotypes are not particularly interesting. If I want stereotypes I'll head to a gay bar in downtown Seattle.
I think the main point of representation to capture here is that a person who is gay has experienced being part of a minority, and that will inform their life perspective forever--in any number of ways. So in this character there would be this sort of ineffable sense of being (sometimes invisibly) in an outgroup.
Even if we'd rather devs stay away from trying to evoke 'gay culture' (because what does that mean...), they could draw on shared experiences--like everyone has had to come out, regardless of anything else.
But yeah I'm with you--I'd like to see some gay protagonists in a game that isn't about romance or isn't about being gay. Sometimes that's not the genre I want to play!
Separately, I do think there's something lacking when characters are PC-sexual--while it makes more romances accessible, which is nice, the tradeoff is that the stories aren't explicitly queer, and that can be sort of odd. Like are both people from parts of the world that are accepting of gayness or is one of them a bit gunshy about PDA cause they've been the target of discrimination before? When a story is written to be either gay or straight it feels like it's written as straight but they just swapped the pronouns, and that's ok but it's not excellent.
I can't believe that people in this thread are decrying the ask for explicit representation as somehow not woke enough. That's a total headscratcher. How good would it be if when you're like 14 and you are kinda worried about coming out to your bros but instead you're like 'uhhh I'm gay' and they're like 'oh, yeah like my favorite character Shooty Mcshooterman'
To answer the OP, I don't know of any such games though.
I am firmly of the belief that it is valuable to have at least a handful of media where any given group of people are the protagonist. Gay, lesbian, transgender, ace, poly, a-romantic, demi, gender-fluid, intersex, different backgrounds, different abilities, etc.
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
pictured: a straight
Another straight woman from a Bioware game
Maybe someone at bioware is straight but likes more butch/futch girls?
Straight girls that are more on the middle or even butch end of the scale and straight guys that are into that is a real thing.
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
pictured: a straight
Another straight woman from a Bioware game
Maybe someone at bioware is straight but likes more butch/futch girls?
Straight girls that are more on the middle or even butch end of the scale and straight guys that are into that is a real thing.
I feel like sometimes fear of stereotypes has worked against games. like bioware games keep writing butch women as straight, for some reason, like they're afraid of being problematic by making a character who looks really gay be gay. but then all the gay women who are attracted to them are disappointed they can't date them.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
pictured: a straight
Another straight woman from a Bioware game
Maybe someone at bioware is straight but likes more butch/futch girls?
Straight girls that are more on the middle or even butch end of the scale and straight guys that are into that is a real thing.
yeah but they're like six for six on this trend.
Realistically, this is very likely because the people doing the designs are old enough to remember the schoolyard-level bullshit of "lol short hair UR GAY!" that was pervasive for decades, and are thus doing everything in their power to intentionally break that stereotype.
I will not speculate as to whether they're overcorrecting, but as someone who remembers when "gay women in media all had short hair, wore flannel, and were butch, that's how you knew", I can see the urge to Not Be That Person when creating your character.
(Also, I know a shitload of not-gay women with undercuts/shaved heads. It's mostly 'cause they like petting it; it's like a puppy belly. Hell, that's why I buzzed mine (apart from the balding); it's because it feels really nice to run your hand over.)
Edit: Oh shit, that's exactly what you said! Well then. I am agreeing with you.
It's an older title by Nitro+ and the first game published under their boys-love branch back in 2005. For those that don't know of Nitro+, their name normally means both 'super high quality and good writing' and 'dark/edgelord' and are responsible for such things like Song of Saya, Full Metal Daemon: Muramasa, Deus Machina Demonbane, Chaos;Head & Steins;Gate (w/ 5pb), ....and Super Sonico.
Separately, I do think there's something lacking when characters are PC-sexual--while it makes more romances accessible, which is nice, the tradeoff is that the stories aren't explicitly queer, and that can be sort of odd. Like are both people from parts of the world that are accepting of gayness or is one of them a bit gunshy about PDA cause they've been the target of discrimination before? When a story is written to be either gay or straight it feels like it's written as straight but they just swapped the pronouns, and that's ok but it's not excellent.
Yeah this description of bi characters as not queer enough and a half way measure, rather than just (y’know) bi, is why player sexual is a god awful and gross term.
Separately, I do think there's something lacking when characters are PC-sexual--while it makes more romances accessible, which is nice, the tradeoff is that the stories aren't explicitly queer, and that can be sort of odd. Like are both people from parts of the world that are accepting of gayness or is one of them a bit gunshy about PDA cause they've been the target of discrimination before? When a story is written to be either gay or straight it feels like it's written as straight but they just swapped the pronouns, and that's ok but it's not excellent.
Yeah this description of bi characters as not queer enough and a half way measure, rather than just (y’know) bi, is why player sexual is a god awful and gross term.
Playersexual doesn't mean bi. It means the NPC is written in such a way as they effectively don't have a sexual orientation- the only clue you get is they'll do you. And nothing else. Are they bi? Are they straight? Gay? Who the fuck knows! About they only they you can say is they aren't aromantic or asexual.
lesbians are a bit better off though the only two I can think of are life is strange: before the storm and the last of us left behind
Lesbians are generally the least scary to phob
*traditionally effeminate at least
Dude if I'm gonna get in trouble for yelling atcha you have to know I'm willing to yell atcha for doing the "lesbians are just the straight queers" routine.
The characters in Dragon Age II weren't badly written, players just found it implausible that every romance option in the game would go with Hawke regardless of your gender selection.
While it's baby steps all the way, Bioware at least seems to have been trying to improve with every subsequent game. Since DA2 they've had some characters who are bi but also romance options that are gay or straight for both male and female protagonists.
Or, twist, he wants a boyfriend sometime, maybe after the end boss is dead.
That's pretty much it.
Maybe a woman hits on him and he politely declines and thanks her for the compliment.
--
Edit: If the game is set in the real world, or a world that has the same bigotry scenario, maybe there's more to explore, if that's the kind of thing the game gets into.
Mario plays out exactly the same he rescues the princess she gives him a kiss and he even blushes because the princess is giving him a kiss on his face in front of everyone. And then he goes home and Waluigi is waiting for him wearing only a towel. Thanks for playing!
Mario plays out exactly the same he rescues the princess she gives him a kiss and he even blushes because the princess is giving him a kiss on his face in front of everyone. And then he goes home and Waluigi is waiting for him wearing only a towel. Thanks for playing!
Please. Mario can do WAY better, dude-wise, than a jealous little ass like Waluigi.
Posts
Great, step one to non queers understanding decent rep: Hire and emphasize queer folk so they can set an example.
Bioware actively terrified that lesbians and bi women would not, for some reason, want to bang the heck out of Cassandra.
So it's a fear of stereotyping folk they dont want to learn about/hire representatives of the group to write them properly?
Man this timeline is stupid.
pictured: a straight
This is what Apex Legends did with Gibraltar, yeah
As an aside, there was a fairly important gay male side character in The Last of Us.
oh I can think of plenty of secondary characters who are gay men
You're missing the whole point of my OP--that there is pretty much no difference other than the sex of the other partner. We don't have some super-secret culture that you have to infiltrate to portray us. We're just regular people, if you can write regular people, you can write us.
The reason representation is so bad now is because people don't do that (well, and because video game writers are terrible in general). When they think they are writing "about" gay people or gay culture (as if that is a real thing), what they are really doing is writing about stereotypes while pretending to be "progressive." And stereotypes are not particularly interesting. If I want stereotypes I'll head to a gay bar in downtown Seattle.
Another straight woman from a Bioware game
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
So, to be clear, if you want stereotypes you'll head to a real, physical gay bar? With actual gay people. Who are real and not stereotypes, but flesh and blood folk you are disparging as having relationships not like "regular people"?
What am I missing, are haircuts the secret sign? I thought it was the earring worn on the left side. Or is it the right side? Jesus H Christ, why is being gay so fucking confusing?
Human culture is a never-ending pile of nonsense. When the neck of cultural norms gets cut by divergence it goes all hydra and grows a dozen new heads.
--
Edit: Which means, regardless of how you feel about a given assumption, understand that these assumptions are important to some people and try to be respectful of them when it's about a group they are associated with.
I think the main point of representation to capture here is that a person who is gay has experienced being part of a minority, and that will inform their life perspective forever--in any number of ways. So in this character there would be this sort of ineffable sense of being (sometimes invisibly) in an outgroup.
Even if we'd rather devs stay away from trying to evoke 'gay culture' (because what does that mean...), they could draw on shared experiences--like everyone has had to come out, regardless of anything else.
But yeah I'm with you--I'd like to see some gay protagonists in a game that isn't about romance or isn't about being gay. Sometimes that's not the genre I want to play!
Separately, I do think there's something lacking when characters are PC-sexual--while it makes more romances accessible, which is nice, the tradeoff is that the stories aren't explicitly queer, and that can be sort of odd. Like are both people from parts of the world that are accepting of gayness or is one of them a bit gunshy about PDA cause they've been the target of discrimination before? When a story is written to be either gay or straight it feels like it's written as straight but they just swapped the pronouns, and that's ok but it's not excellent.
I can't believe that people in this thread are decrying the ask for explicit representation as somehow not woke enough. That's a total headscratcher. How good would it be if when you're like 14 and you are kinda worried about coming out to your bros but instead you're like 'uhhh I'm gay' and they're like 'oh, yeah like my favorite character Shooty Mcshooterman'
To answer the OP, I don't know of any such games though.
Everyone deserves a few heroes of their own.
Maybe someone at bioware is straight but likes more butch/futch girls?
Straight girls that are more on the middle or even butch end of the scale and straight guys that are into that is a real thing.
All the more reason to have explicitly-labeled protagonists so that people don't feel they have to fish around for someone to identify with.
yeah but they're like six for six on this trend.
Realistically, this is very likely because the people doing the designs are old enough to remember the schoolyard-level bullshit of "lol short hair UR GAY!" that was pervasive for decades, and are thus doing everything in their power to intentionally break that stereotype.
I will not speculate as to whether they're overcorrecting, but as someone who remembers when "gay women in media all had short hair, wore flannel, and were butch, that's how you knew", I can see the urge to Not Be That Person when creating your character.
(Also, I know a shitload of not-gay women with undercuts/shaved heads. It's mostly 'cause they like petting it; it's like a puppy belly. Hell, that's why I buzzed mine (apart from the balding); it's because it feels really nice to run your hand over.)
Edit: Oh shit, that's exactly what you said! Well then. I am agreeing with you.
Togainu no Chi ~Lost Blood~
It's an older title by Nitro+ and the first game published under their boys-love branch back in 2005. For those that don't know of Nitro+, their name normally means both 'super high quality and good writing' and 'dark/edgelord' and are responsible for such things like Song of Saya, Full Metal Daemon: Muramasa, Deus Machina Demonbane, Chaos;Head & Steins;Gate (w/ 5pb), ....and Super Sonico.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Yeah this description of bi characters as not queer enough and a half way measure, rather than just (y’know) bi, is why player sexual is a god awful and gross term.
Playersexual doesn't mean bi. It means the NPC is written in such a way as they effectively don't have a sexual orientation- the only clue you get is they'll do you. And nothing else. Are they bi? Are they straight? Gay? Who the fuck knows! About they only they you can say is they aren't aromantic or asexual.
I feel like that kind of signposting can get awkward and seem unnatural at times.
you are not a badass
geth, kick @Albino Bunny from the thread
While it's baby steps all the way, Bioware at least seems to have been trying to improve with every subsequent game. Since DA2 they've had some characters who are bi but also romance options that are gay or straight for both male and female protagonists.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Technically big they're poorly written enough they aren't even characters :P
How would you introduce and utilise a gay male protagonist in a game?
Or, twist, he wants a boyfriend sometime, maybe after the end boss is dead.
That's pretty much it.
Maybe a woman hits on him and he politely declines and thanks her for the compliment.
--
Edit: If the game is set in the real world, or a world that has the same bigotry scenario, maybe there's more to explore, if that's the kind of thing the game gets into.
Like Resident Evil 4
Please. Mario can do WAY better, dude-wise, than a jealous little ass like Waluigi.