The whole "find out who really supports it" thing is kind of baffling because a) we already know almost none of them do b) they can lie because its symbolic
+21
Options
Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
The ongoing brouhaha with Jimmy Dore and the Speaker vote is some of the most tedious left wing infighting Ive ever seen
What's going on? Just asking for a brief recap
So some people on the left wanted the Squad to use their weight to force a M4A vote in exchange for supporting Pelosi. At least on paper they could do this. The idea was basically the same as most symbolic votes and ymmv on how you see those.
The Reps in question responded basically with "its a good idea but we think our focus here is better spent on securing committee seats and such"
Enter Jimmy fucking Dore. He ranped the whole vote forcing thing to 11. Literally screaming at people in town halls zoom calls and stuff for even mild disagreeement. He's targeting Ocasio Cortez in particular. Trying to argue she's the same as every other fake progressive Democrat etc.
Seriously, he behaves completely unhinged and then accuses people of tone policing or whatever.
Anyway Dore is pretty transparently using it to boost his profile. He didnt even support Sanders in this election.
i don't really have any skin in this game because electoralism, but AOC's reasoning in that one twitter thread rings pretty hollow when like two days later she got passed over for that committee gig in favor of someone who threatened pelosi during the last speaker vote
Straight up she lost it to someone who threatened to withhold their vote, is what I heard
Which is some deep irony
The thing that really gets me is AOC has gone on record as wanting this exact thing? Some sort of symbolic vote to figure out who actually supports healthcare, as well as saying she values action more than incrementalism, and now she’s trying to play it safe to get a committee seat and I must admit that sticks in my craw
The whole "find out who really supports it" thing is kind of baffling because a) we already know almost none of them do b) they can lie because its symbolic
Obviously
I think it’s a matter of having something tangible to point to and go “see, see, they voted against it during the pandemic, get their ass”
I mean shit even if they all lied and it passed the house then you’ve got something else to paint McConnell and the GOP with, one wonders why the democrats don’t do that more often
The whole "find out who really supports it" thing is kind of baffling because a) we already know almost none of them do b) they can lie because its symbolic
Obviously
I think it’s a matter of having something tangible to point to and go “see, see, they voted against it during the pandemic, get their ass”
I mean shit even if they all lied and it passed the house then you’ve got something else to paint McConnell and the GOP with, one wonders why the democrats don’t do that more often
All very true.
Dore seems to have moved onto Cenk though now so I can go back to letthemfight.gif
Yeah in it's own it's not a bad plan or anything, but also it's not, like, a super valuable or game changing plan? The idea that it reveals anything new or provides meaningful, immediate pressure is pretty sus imo, so basically it's forcing a symbolic vote that accomplishes nothing besides generating attack ads 2 years in the future.
Certainly it's not worth going full raging asshole and throwing a huge shit fit over, which really makes me question Dore's motivations here.
I guess there's a chance we find out if the Democrats actually want to do anything at all if they take the Senate majority
Pretty big if there, but it's there
Many of the current Dems did nothing meaningful to protect the "integrity" of the supreme court, but I guess if the house, the Senate and executive all push for something and the goddamned supreme court decides M4A and people's lives are unconstitutional, at least they can say they "tried"
As I was saying, they won't do anything to Trump because they think the election has resolved the internal contradictions of the American state. The George Floyd protests were a manifestation of those contradictions, i.e., Black Americans fighting the impunity of state violence.
While it isn't surprising, it demonstrates the extent to which the democratic party is hostile to the only forces that are capable of resolving these contradictions; they prefer "normalcy", or stasis, such as it exists, because instability is their real enemy, not anti-Blackness.
We've seen this story before and it's more likely that the democrats, precisely because of the position they occupy with the state, will permit these contradictions to be resolved by letting Black people's meager, formal rights be sacrificed.
there's a real catch-22 in american politics which is that leftist parties are force to work with the Democrats to have any hope at manifesting change, but it's a race against time before the system recognizes you as a foreign body and either rejects you or assimilates you/eats your soul.
And no major political reform can be enacted without the support of at least one, possibly both, of the ruling parties.
I guess there's a chance we find out if the Democrats actually want to do anything at all if they take the Senate majority
Pretty big if there, but it's there
Many of the current Dems did nothing meaningful to protect the "integrity" of the supreme court, but I guess if the house, the Senate and executive all push for something and the goddamned supreme court decides M4A and people's lives are unconstitutional, at least they can say they "tried"
"Quote"
I think there’s a good chance they take the senate majority
I think theres zero chance they do anything with it
We just elected two people and the VP pick’s big idea was the fucking beyond parody Pell grant thing, they don’t want to change anything
The ongoing brouhaha with Jimmy Dore and the Speaker vote is some of the most tedious left wing infighting Ive ever seen
What's going on? Just asking for a brief recap
So some people on the left wanted the Squad to use their weight to force a M4A vote in exchange for supporting Pelosi. At least on paper they could do this. The idea was basically the same as most symbolic votes and ymmv on how you see those.
The Reps in question responded basically with "its a good idea but we think our focus here is better spent on securing committee seats and such"
Enter Jimmy fucking Dore. He ranped the whole vote forcing thing to 11. Literally screaming at people in town halls zoom calls and stuff for even mild disagreeement. He's targeting Ocasio Cortez in particular. Trying to argue she's the same as every other fake progressive Democrat etc.
Seriously, he behaves completely unhinged and then accuses people of tone policing or whatever.
Anyway Dore is pretty transparently using it to boost his profile. He didnt even support Sanders in this election.
i don't really have any skin in this game because electoralism, but AOC's reasoning in that one twitter thread rings pretty hollow when like two days later she got passed over for that committee gig in favor of someone who threatened pelosi during the last speaker vote
Straight up she lost it to someone who threatened to withhold their vote, is what I heard
Which is some deep irony
The thing that really gets me is AOC has gone on record as wanting this exact thing? Some sort of symbolic vote to figure out who actually supports healthcare, as well as saying she values action more than incrementalism, and now she’s trying to play it safe to get a committee seat and I must admit that sticks in my craw
AOC worked on campaigns and decided to run a usurper campaign to get elected instead of making a name within the party and then getting anointed for a run.
Which is good, because the DNC makes sure you're filthy/compromised by the time they decide to elevate you.
But she's not a revolutionary - she is and always has been a person willing to work within the system, even if she wants to radically change it.
After two years in Congress she's decided that gunning for that committee seat was her next move. You can take that one of two ways:
- She's still the person you thought she was and she thinks this is what's best
- The system has in some measure corrupted her and her goals are not exactly the same as they were two years ago
Personally I lean towards the first because the way forward is spreading influence and winning seats. Most of the squad and AOC in particular seem fairly in tune with that and I don't see them as some sort of token resistance that exists to grab media attention but ultimately do nothing.
RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
Come Overwatch with meeeee
+22
Options
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited January 2021
Assadist mostly being "the guy we sent the people we kidnapped during the GWOT to get tortured by did nothing wrong and those silly rebels gassed themselves for the attention"
with a mix of "the Ba'ath party claims to be socialist so they couldn't possibly do any wrong"
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
American centrism is highly "small c" conservative - strongly opposed to change, only supporting things once there is majority support for it, only pushing for the sllest possible increments when forced to it. Openly hostile to any challenge to the status quo.
+9
Options
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
Thanks to the successful class warfare and propaganda in this country, middle class white folks are generally 1) much more comfortable than others 2) aware of how fragile that comfortability is in the current system 3) aware that nearly every policy change pushed has cost them something 4) confident that they're just "one big break" from being wealthy.
Generally I've found the most successful argument is that the goal should be to bring everyone up to how comfortable they are, take away the dread of losing that level of comfort, and why hope for the big win later when we can all have the rest of it later. If you can convince them of that, then your next argument is convincing them to actually put in effort.
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
American centrism is highly "small c" conservative - strongly opposed to change, only supporting things once there is majority support for it, only pushing for the sllest possible increments when forced to it. Openly hostile to any challenge to the status quo.
i dunno
it generally feels like they're much more openly hostile to challenges from the left than they are from the right
republicans need to be understood, respected, compromised with. We gotta interview random white supremacists so that we can understand them better. we gotta reach across the aisle to republican legislators even as they openly shit on us.
leftists though need to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down and let the adults handle things
Assadist mostly being "the guy we sent the people we kidnapped during the GWOT to get tortured by did nothing wrong and those silly rebels gassed themselves for the attention"
with a mix of "the Ba'ath party claims to be socialist so they couldn't possibly do any wrong"
I guess I’m just too far removed from these issues but mostly what I see this leveled at is people who say “we shouldn’t be in Syria”
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
American centrism is highly "small c" conservative - strongly opposed to change, only supporting things once there is majority support for it, only pushing for the sllest possible increments when forced to it. Openly hostile to any challenge to the status quo.
i dunno
it generally feels like they're much more openly hostile to challenges from the left than they are from the right
republicans need to be understood, respected, compromised with. We gotta interview random white supremacists so that we can understand them better. we gotta reach across the aisle to republican legislators even as they openly shit on us.
leftists though need to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down and let the adults handle things
I agree and I don't think it's a position that is at odds with what Ursus was saying
+8
Options
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
Assadist mostly being "the guy we sent the people we kidnapped during the GWOT to get tortured by did nothing wrong and those silly rebels gassed themselves for the attention"
with a mix of "the Ba'ath party claims to be socialist so they couldn't possibly do any wrong"
I guess I’m just too far removed from these issues but mostly what I see this leveled at is people who say “we shouldn’t be in Syria”
And we shouldn’t!
The first is literally a thing Tulsi Gabbard did.
and the presence of US troops keeping turkey from war-criming Rojava was actually a net good until trump had his tantrum.
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
American centrism is highly "small c" conservative - strongly opposed to change, only supporting things once there is majority support for it, only pushing for the sllest possible increments when forced to it. Openly hostile to any challenge to the status quo.
i dunno
it generally feels like they're much more openly hostile to challenges from the left than they are from the right
republicans need to be understood, respected, compromised with. We gotta interview random white supremacists so that we can understand them better. we gotta reach across the aisle to republican legislators even as they openly shit on us.
leftists though need to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down and let the adults handle things
I agree and I don't think it's a position that is at odds with what Ursus was saying
yeah not totally, i dunno. i guess i just mean that it seems like they're... not happy about challenges to the status quo from the right, but a lot less willing to fight about it
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
American centrism is highly "small c" conservative - strongly opposed to change, only supporting things once there is majority support for it, only pushing for the sllest possible increments when forced to it. Openly hostile to any challenge to the status quo.
i dunno
it generally feels like they're much more openly hostile to challenges from the left than they are from the right
republicans need to be understood, respected, compromised with. We gotta interview random white supremacists so that we can understand them better. we gotta reach across the aisle to republican legislators even as they openly shit on us.
leftists though need to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down and let the adults handle things
I think part of it is embedded in whose problems are seen as 'legitimate' by the dominant culture (progressives tend to be younger and more minority-led/diverse)
and part of it is just that the Democratic party IS conservative, and they are more ideologically troubled by the structural upsets proposed by progressives than the violently reactionary fascists on the other side of the aisle, because those guys are a known quantity who have been around (in the American political landscape) basically forever. if I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, I might say it's a boiling the frog scenario, but tbh I suspect they (cynically, but correctly) view encroaching authoritarianism as less disruptive to the institutes they care about than serious socialist reform.
Centrism in the current American context strikes me as primarily a reaction to fear.
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
American centrism is highly "small c" conservative - strongly opposed to change, only supporting things once there is majority support for it, only pushing for the sllest possible increments when forced to it. Openly hostile to any challenge to the status quo.
i dunno
it generally feels like they're much more openly hostile to challenges from the left than they are from the right
republicans need to be understood, respected, compromised with. We gotta interview random white supremacists so that we can understand them better. we gotta reach across the aisle to republican legislators even as they openly shit on us.
leftists though need to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down and let the adults handle things
Because American leftists challenge the status quo and want it changed while the right just wants more of it. The right is closer to not changing the status quo than the left is, hence democrats being friendlier.
There is more to it than that, but I'm sticking to my rather narrow lens here
EDIT: i think we are talking about different things: I talk about the underlying worldview, you are talking about it's real world application. I don't disagree with you at all
sorry, a white nationalist group has a chairman named enrique tarrio?????
The proud boys as an organization are very adamant that they are NOT white nationalists, but "western chauvinists." As long as you agree that western culture is superior to all others they claim not to care what you look like
A position which infuriates openly white supremacist proud boys, of which there are obviously very many
sorry, a white nationalist group has a chairman named enrique tarrio?????
The proud boys as an organization are very adamant that they are NOT white nationalists, but "western chauvinists." As long as you agree that western culture is superior to all others they claim not to care what you look like
A position which infuriates openly white supremacist proud boys, of which there are obviously very many
Didn't they recently openly proclaim to be a white supremacist organization that wanted to remove their supporters of colour, or was that another attention grab
sorry, a white nationalist group has a chairman named enrique tarrio?????
The proud boys as an organization are very adamant that they are NOT white nationalists, but "western chauvinists." As long as you agree that western culture is superior to all others they claim not to care what you look like
A position which infuriates openly white supremacist proud boys, of which there are obviously very many
Didn't they recently openly proclaim to be a white supremacist organization that wanted to remove their supporters of colour, or was that another attention grab
sorry, a white nationalist group has a chairman named enrique tarrio?????
The proud boys as an organization are very adamant that they are NOT white nationalists, but "western chauvinists." As long as you agree that western culture is superior to all others they claim not to care what you look like
A position which infuriates openly white supremacist proud boys, of which there are obviously very many
Didn't they recently openly proclaim to be a white supremacist organization that wanted to remove their supporters of colour, or was that another attention grab
There were public statements of the group splintering when Tarrio was on "vacation" but I don't think anything major came of that
sorry, a white nationalist group has a chairman named enrique tarrio?????
The pyramid of fascism is always looking for a diverse collection of helpful useful idiots with prejudices and hatreds they can exploit while telling them that "there's room at the top for you because you're 'one of the good ones'".
Posts
Straight up she lost it to someone who threatened to withhold their vote, is what I heard
Which is some deep irony
The thing that really gets me is AOC has gone on record as wanting this exact thing? Some sort of symbolic vote to figure out who actually supports healthcare, as well as saying she values action more than incrementalism, and now she’s trying to play it safe to get a committee seat and I must admit that sticks in my craw
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Obviously
I think it’s a matter of having something tangible to point to and go “see, see, they voted against it during the pandemic, get their ass”
I mean shit even if they all lied and it passed the house then you’ve got something else to paint McConnell and the GOP with, one wonders why the democrats don’t do that more often
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
All very true.
Dore seems to have moved onto Cenk though now so I can go back to letthemfight.gif
Certainly it's not worth going full raging asshole and throwing a huge shit fit over, which really makes me question Dore's motivations here.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Pretty big if there, but it's there
Many of the current Dems did nothing meaningful to protect the "integrity" of the supreme court, but I guess if the house, the Senate and executive all push for something and the goddamned supreme court decides M4A and people's lives are unconstitutional, at least they can say they "tried"
"Quote"
Text in spoiler for those without twitter embeds
And no major political reform can be enacted without the support of at least one, possibly both, of the ruling parties.
I think there’s a good chance they take the senate majority
I think theres zero chance they do anything with it
We just elected two people and the VP pick’s big idea was the fucking beyond parody Pell grant thing, they don’t want to change anything
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
AOC worked on campaigns and decided to run a usurper campaign to get elected instead of making a name within the party and then getting anointed for a run.
Which is good, because the DNC makes sure you're filthy/compromised by the time they decide to elevate you.
But she's not a revolutionary - she is and always has been a person willing to work within the system, even if she wants to radically change it.
After two years in Congress she's decided that gunning for that committee seat was her next move. You can take that one of two ways:
- She's still the person you thought she was and she thinks this is what's best
- The system has in some measure corrupted her and her goals are not exactly the same as they were two years ago
Personally I lean towards the first because the way forward is spreading influence and winning seats. Most of the squad and AOC in particular seem fairly in tune with that and I don't see them as some sort of token resistance that exists to grab media attention but ultimately do nothing.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
with a mix of "the Ba'ath party claims to be socialist so they couldn't possibly do any wrong"
They are terrified of changes and above all else, they want to prevent any changes. I wish I could make them understand that fundamental, systematic change is the antidote
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
American centrism is highly "small c" conservative - strongly opposed to change, only supporting things once there is majority support for it, only pushing for the sllest possible increments when forced to it. Openly hostile to any challenge to the status quo.
always relevant
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
Thanks to the successful class warfare and propaganda in this country, middle class white folks are generally 1) much more comfortable than others 2) aware of how fragile that comfortability is in the current system 3) aware that nearly every policy change pushed has cost them something 4) confident that they're just "one big break" from being wealthy.
Generally I've found the most successful argument is that the goal should be to bring everyone up to how comfortable they are, take away the dread of losing that level of comfort, and why hope for the big win later when we can all have the rest of it later. If you can convince them of that, then your next argument is convincing them to actually put in effort.
i dunno
it generally feels like they're much more openly hostile to challenges from the left than they are from the right
republicans need to be understood, respected, compromised with. We gotta interview random white supremacists so that we can understand them better. we gotta reach across the aisle to republican legislators even as they openly shit on us.
leftists though need to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down and let the adults handle things
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I guess I’m just too far removed from these issues but mostly what I see this leveled at is people who say “we shouldn’t be in Syria”
And we shouldn’t!
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
I agree and I don't think it's a position that is at odds with what Ursus was saying
The first is literally a thing Tulsi Gabbard did.
and the presence of US troops keeping turkey from war-criming Rojava was actually a net good until trump had his tantrum.
yeah not totally, i dunno. i guess i just mean that it seems like they're... not happy about challenges to the status quo from the right, but a lot less willing to fight about it
i dunno, maybe i'm nitpicking word choice here
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I think part of it is embedded in whose problems are seen as 'legitimate' by the dominant culture (progressives tend to be younger and more minority-led/diverse)
and part of it is just that the Democratic party IS conservative, and they are more ideologically troubled by the structural upsets proposed by progressives than the violently reactionary fascists on the other side of the aisle, because those guys are a known quantity who have been around (in the American political landscape) basically forever. if I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, I might say it's a boiling the frog scenario, but tbh I suspect they (cynically, but correctly) view encroaching authoritarianism as less disruptive to the institutes they care about than serious socialist reform.
Because American leftists challenge the status quo and want it changed while the right just wants more of it. The right is closer to not changing the status quo than the left is, hence democrats being friendlier.
There is more to it than that, but I'm sticking to my rather narrow lens here
EDIT: i think we are talking about different things: I talk about the underlying worldview, you are talking about it's real world application. I don't disagree with you at all
Tweet is from National Correspondent, Extremism & Emerging Issues at USAToday
Seems confirmed
Good! Fuck him!
Sneaking suspicion that the FBI/police were waiting until just before the 6th so that any movements in DC would have their leaders absent.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
Yep! Trying real hard to bend his anti-Blackness into being let into the White Club.
The proud boys as an organization are very adamant that they are NOT white nationalists, but "western chauvinists." As long as you agree that western culture is superior to all others they claim not to care what you look like
A position which infuriates openly white supremacist proud boys, of which there are obviously very many
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Didn't they recently openly proclaim to be a white supremacist organization that wanted to remove their supporters of colour, or was that another attention grab
3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
That was indeed them.
There were public statements of the group splintering when Tarrio was on "vacation" but I don't think anything major came of that
but the group is explicitly racist
The pyramid of fascism is always looking for a diverse collection of helpful useful idiots with prejudices and hatreds they can exploit while telling them that "there's room at the top for you because you're 'one of the good ones'".
There isn't, but they never tell them that.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky