We aren’t at hte point yet where congress is “bendin’ down to kiss nazi ass”
But if we don’t impeach Trump and expel his co-conspirators? We’ll sure as hell be a lot closer to it than any sensible person whose studied history should be comfortable with.
I think there's basically two competing tradeoffs here
There's a moral imperative that says impeaching Trump after he incites an attempted coup is more than warranted. It likely won't result it his removal and would only remove him from power maybe 10 days early at the outside and prevent a theoretical run in four years if more traditional law enforcement doesn't land him behind bars or dread before then but it sends a message that this behavior can't stand.
vs
The effort is unlikely to succeed because Republicans are monsters who are too dumb to cut bait and too scared of their base to try to change it. The political capital expended in an ultimately futile gesture will hamper real life policy goals of the Biden Administration including covid efforts. Excess people would likely due due to the reduced political power that could be directed at covid and other critical problems and Republicans would be more likely to regain power in two years. The Trump Administration showed norms are only as powerful as the people in power say they are, so the retention of government control is more pressing than setting a precedent or norm that this behavior won't stand.
Now I lean towards the former, but I can't really dismiss the latter. The biggest question is has the limit to Republican shame and cowardice in the Senate been hit? Or perhaps do some of those with ambition realize they can't out-Trump Trump and know they need to do away with a potential rival if they are to reform the expectations of their base to something that they are more likely to win over. If there is chance at actually convicting him in the Senate or if the political capital expended is negligible to negative (maybe it can win over some voters) it becomes easy but that's not an easy question. There's been some reporting that (somehow) there are enough votes to remove but I find it hard to rely on Republicans Senators en masse not being terrible and stupid.
I think in the end you have to just bite the bullet and do it because it was so egregious, but I can understand the hesitance that this could take focus away from DC statehood, 13 Justices, the Voting Rights Act and covid.
Stop talking about political capital for the love of christ
wrote:
The real problem is that the idea of political capital—or mandates, or momentum—is so poorly defined that presidents and pundits often get it wrong. “Presidents usually over-estimate it,” says George Edwards, a presidential scholar at Texas A&M University. “The best kind of political capital—some sense of an electoral mandate to do something—is very rare. It almost never happens. In 1964, maybe. And to some degree in 1980.” For that reason, political capital is a concept that misleads far more than it enlightens. It is distortionary. It conveys the idea that we know more than we really do about the ever-elusive concept of political power, and it discounts the way unforeseen events can suddenly change everything. Instead, it suggests, erroneously, that a political figure has a concrete amount of political capital to invest, just as someone might have real investment capital—that a particular leader can bank his gains, and the size of his account determines what he can do at any given moment in history.
...
Some political scientists who study the elusive calculus of how to pass legislation and run successful presidencies say that political capital is, at best, an empty concept, and that almost nothing in the academic literature successfully quantifies or even defines it. “It can refer to a very abstract thing, like a president’s popularity, but there’s no mechanism there. That makes it kind of useless,” says Richard Bensel, a government professor at Cornell University. Even Ornstein concedes that the calculus is far more complex than the term suggests. Winning on one issue often changes the calculation for the next issue; there is never any known amount of capital. “The idea here is, if an issue comes up where the conventional wisdom is that president is not going to get what he wants, and he gets it, then each time that happens, it changes the calculus of the other actors” Ornstein says. “If they think he’s going to win, they may change positions to get on the winning side. It’s a bandwagon effect.”
Because all it’s fucking doing right now is giving you an excuse to not eject the people who instigated a coup against certifying the election of the President of the United States.
This isn’t all the fucking arguments we’ve had about M4A, for the increase of the medium wage, for UBI or whatever fucking divisions we’ve argued about in the past year
This is about holding accountable the politicians who betrayed their oaths to the public and engaged in sedition against not simply our government, but against the very idea that we could vote against them
This was a coup to pave the way for authoritarian grabs of power and the death of democratic representation in America in favor of permanent Republican control
If we do not stop this now, they will try this again.
They absolutely, goddamn, fucking will. We have seen history prove this out before. This is not something we can just wait out and let it fix itself.
The president of the United States of America purposefully instigated a crowd of his supporters to attack Congress in hopes of scaring them into handing him the presidency. Several Senators and even more House representatives aided and abetted him in this effort, including after the attack.
Impeach him, expel them from their seats and do not let them back in, because they are literal threats to democracy.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
We aren't congressfolk. Us talking about or ignoring political science concepts will change nothing about anything. We, i.e. all of us here, can do literally nothing to stop these fascists by posting one way or another on these forums. I can link various articles that talk about political capital being a viable thing just as easily, it won't matter.
I'd love it if these threads didn't always, always devolve into left vs other left infighting. But, man. Even on this thing where we all essentially agree on everything but the minute details people are being pretty shitty to eachother.
Sometimes, a clever practitioner of power can get more done just because he’s aggressive and knows the hallways of Congress well. Texas A&M’s Edwards is right to say that the outcome of the 1964 election, Lyndon Johnson’s landslide victory over Barry Goldwater, was one of the few that conveyed a mandate. But one of the main reasons for that mandate (in addition to Goldwater’s ineptitude as a candidate) was President Johnson’s masterful use of power leading up to that election, and his ability to get far more done than anyone thought possible, given his limited political capital. In the newest volume in his exhaustive study of LBJ, The Passage of Power, historian Robert Caro recalls Johnson getting cautionary advice after he assumed the presidency from the assassinated John F. Kennedy in late 1963. Don’t focus on a long-stalled civil-rights bill, advisers told him, because it might jeopardize Southern lawmakers’ support for a tax cut and appropriations bills the president needed. “One of the wise, practical people around the table [said that] the presidency has only a certain amount of coinage to expend, and you oughtn’t to expend it on this,” Caro writes. (Coinage, of course, was what political capital was called in those days.) Johnson replied, “Well, what the hell’s the presidency for?”
What the hell is Congress for if not to expel those in the government who commit sedition against the very notion of democratic representation
We aren't congressfolk. Us talking about or ignoring political science concepts will change nothing about anything. We, i.e. all of us here, can do literally nothing to stop these fascists by posting one way or another on these forums. I can link various articles that talk about political capital being a viable thing just as easily, it won't matter.
I'd love it if these threads didn't always, always devolve into left vs other left infighting. But, man. Even on this thing where we all essentially agree on everything but the minute details people are being pretty shitty to eachother.
It’s a Democracy.
They’re not our kings, not our lords.
They’re our representatives.
So at some point? Yeah, it does fall on those of us who are politically aware enough to understand what is going on. And trying to make excuses ahead of time for the failure of our representatives to do their jobs against fucking fascists is a shit way to manage our responsibilities as the citizens of a democracy.
At some point, shit devolves into “left versus other left fighting” is because some folks seem to think that we can just keep skating by and shit will be fine as it the inertia of past politics will carry us through, and the rest of us are looking around at the fires threatening to burn us all alive and asking what the fuck is wrong with you, grab a fucking hose”
You read enough stories about real-life fascism and you start to see the common threads
One of them is “we should have taken this way more seriously way sooner”
Fascists are uniformly pathetic people. After all the type of person who wants their political opponents jailed and killed, does so because they're terribly offended on an individual basis about someone thinking ill of them.
You read enough stories about real-life fascism and you start to see the common threads
One of them is “we should have taken this way more seriously way sooner”
I feel like everyone capable of recognizing the arc very much did recognize it and then said something about it and then voted to stop it, but any desire by the populace to stop the threat early was completely countermanded by how much fucking money media outlets were making off the situation because they couldn't give less of a shit about a potentially-fascist nation as long as they could keep lining their pockets.
If the Democratic party wasn't about to have the power to drop the anti-monopoly hammer it should've dropped 10-15 years ago, I can guarantee the social media venues would be doing fuck-all against Trump now. They would be pouring all their efforts into amplifying his message and trying to destroy his opposition, while shutting down Democratic opposition. That Georgia runoff is probably the only thing that tipped social media outlets over the line to pretending they suddenly care about truth and actual democracy.
The totally spineless traditional media outlets also fucked this up considerably, simply be allowing mealy-mouthed double-talk and outright lies to become the acceptable norm. If interviewers would hammer politicians on the points they keep trying to talk around and refuse to let them wiggle their way free of things they don't want to discuss, again, we would not be where we are now. We just need plain, direct shit like forcing Trump to say the names of all these "they" groups he brings up to amp up rumors, with not one damn reporter allowing him to have another question until he fesses up that there is no "they" or he walks out.
This is not simply an issue of cultural engagement, this is hugely about unrestrained capitalism enormously distorting information to make the rich even more rich while trying to strip more power from people who see the problems.
I understand the urgency to remove Trump immediately through impeachment but with the system we have now, and the sheer amount of GOP sycophants and cowards, that is just very unlikely. The only sure fire way to remove Trump immediately, or at least prevent him from taking action before he’s out of office, is the 25th which is an unknown at best.
Let’s keep things in perspective here; even if we had all six infinity stones and snapped our fingers to immediately put Trump in prison, that doesn’t also stop whatever next domestic terrorism event from happening. I just don’t see whatever rightwing terrorist group dropping all plans for their next violent attempt at insurrection because Trump is impeached or 25th’d. So IMO, removing Trump to stop the next attack is immaterial, as it’s either gonna be attempted or not regardless of Trump being in office.
Trump is only the immediate problem in that he’s still POTUS with all the power and threat that entails, but like I said, there simply isn’t a likely path to remove him before his term is up. We need to accept that in all likelihood, Trump will remain in office until Biden is sworn in no matter what course the House takes next week. The long term problem, and the one we should be focused on, is all the enablers that allowed us to get to this point in the first place. The Stephen Millers, the Giulianis, the Flynns, the Meadows, and all the other fuckers installed in our government that enabled this attack on our democracy to happen, especially the conspirators that almost assuredly exist in federal agencies.
This is about more than just Trump. In order to get them all there needs to be a thorough investigation and public inquiry into the how, who, what, and all the other W’s in order to excise our public agencies of assholes that enabled this insurrection.
Rushing this too fast gives the GOP political cover and risks fucking the investigation up. I don’t just want Trump, I want every single one of them and a public, thorough investigation is the best way to ensure that. It sucks and I wish things were different, but they aren’t and unless there is a more realistic path to remove Trump before the 20th, the best path forward for the safety of the nation is to give time for the Dems to take over the Senate, give time for Biden to remove Trump sycophants from US agencies, give time to the FBI and DOJ to investigate, and give time to the new Senate to bring those results to the public and force the GOP to vote on what is discovered.
I don’t know how long that will reasonably take, but I am confident that rushing a Senate vote before a thorough investigation only serves to provide cover for all the GOP that enabled and covered for this attack on our democracy. And IMO, giving chance for these traitors to remain in positions of power because of a rushed investigations is far more dangerous to the safety of the nation, because they will try again. We may not be so lucky next time.
Edit: I am not against the House voting for impeachment, that should’ve happened yesterday. I am against rushing the trial and investigation. That needs to be very thorough. Like I said, I don’t just want Trump. I want them all.
Mild Confusion on
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If we do not stop this now, they will try this again.
They absolutely, goddamn, fucking will. We have seen history prove this out before. This is not something we can just wait out and let it fix itself.
The president of the United States of America purposefully instigated a crowd of his supporters to attack Congress in hopes of scaring them into handing him the presidency. Several Senators and even more House representatives aided and abetted him in this effort, including after the attack.
Impeach him, expel them from their seats and do not let them back in, because they are literal threats to democracy.
They will try this again. Impeachment will not stop them from doing that because it doesn't actually change the incentive structures that caused this to happen in the first place. It's a mistake to think impeachment will actually stop the shit Trump or the GOP is doing.
shryke on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Sarah Jeong (NYT, elsewhere) had a relevant thought about the whole they almost died thing.
honestly there has nothing been more flabbergasting than Democrats having faced down getting blown up / shot / kidnapped and then pretending like they have no power to do anything about it
It turns out it’s not that they didn’t care about their constituents, they’re just abject cowards who can’t even stand up for themselves in an ongoing emergency where the lack of consequences makes a second, third, fourth attack more likely????
...
Silicon Valley companies with soul-crushing moral cowardice built into their DNA have moved faster, *what is wrong with you*
“Ah ha, but let’s not ruin Biden’s first one hundred days”
A mob just tried to kill you??? Like, there’s bombs and stuff and a cop died???? Why the fuck do you think we’re on a normal schedule anymore!!!
This whole "We can't do that" mentality is asinine under the circumstances. YOU CAN DO FUCKING ANYTHING. Jesus, if this doesn't qualify as an emergency, a time to break precedent, a time to get shit done, then when???
The GOP were breaking norms and bucking rules from day one, but the dems are just like "We caaaaaaan't", even when someone almost literally has a gun to their head. What the fuck.
Because impeaching Trump will not get Democrats re-elected. That's what this comes down to imo. The historical lesson here is that voters just don't care enough about all this shit to have it move their votes so the question of what is more important is skewed away from shit like "holding Trump accountable" and towards their legislative agenda.
I may have agreed a few months ago, but right know the iron is fucking hot and you strike, goddamnit.
You strip him of all his presidential benefits and ban him from ever running from office again. That sounds p fucking important.
I may have agreed a few months ago, but right know the iron is fucking hot and you strike, goddamnit.
You strip him of all his presidential benefits and ban him from ever running from office again. That sounds p fucking important.
But to do that you need 17 Republican Senators to agree to convict him.
He was obviously and overtly guilty last time. His criminality was even more clear if not as heinous.
Romney, maybe Toomey and Murkowski. Maybe Collins if she is sufficiently concerned. Burr I guess? And at that point you still need another dozen Republican Senators.
Maybe this is when the Republican party cuts bait, but I doubt it.
Impeachment is not about removal or conviction. It is a political move. It may be (and almost certainly is) one born of reasserting basic political norms and even doing what is right, but the facts of the case are only relevant to the extent that they sway votes in the Senate, and to the extent that the legislative actions impact voter support.
Trump will face actual criminal repercussions at least at the state level after Jan 20th. There facts will matter more (hopefully). Until then its about political power.
And you expel his boot licking cronies with him while you’re at it
If Ted Cruz wanted to keep his seat, he shouldn’t have done his part in stoking this fucking fire. Hawley and the rest of their brigade too
Let their final acts in Washington be to have to walk down the steps of the Capitol pouting, their office belongings in a too small box as they’re kicked to the metaphorical curb.
Maybe the indignity of having to chase after some brickabrack that tumbled out of the box
I may have agreed a few months ago, but right know the iron is fucking hot and you strike, goddamnit.
You strip him of all his presidential benefits and ban him from ever running from office again. That sounds p fucking important.
But to do that you need 17 Republican Senators to agree to convict him.
He was obviously and overtly guilty last time. His criminality was even more clear if not as heinous.
Romney, maybe Toomey and Murkowski. Maybe Collins if she is sufficiently concerned. Burr I guess? And at that point you still need another dozen Republican Senators.
Maybe this is when the Republican party cuts bait, but I doubt it.
Impeachment is not about removal or conviction. It is a political move. It may be (and almost certainly is) one born of reasserting basic political norms and even doing what is right, but the facts of the case are only relevant to the extent that they sway votes in the Senate, and to the extent that the legislative actions impact voter support.
Trump will face actual criminal repercussions at least at the state level after Jan 20th. There facts will matter more (hopefully). Until then its about political power.
We cannot let the fucking recalcitrance of the GOP to hold us back forever Pants.
They invited sedition and promulgated an assault on Congress.
There were armed terrorists, ready with planning, flex cuffs and the motivation to do the unspeakable.
I may have agreed a few months ago, but right know the iron is fucking hot and you strike, goddamnit.
You strip him of all his presidential benefits and ban him from ever running from office again. That sounds p fucking important.
But to do that you need 17 Republican Senators to agree to convict him.
He was obviously and overtly guilty last time. His criminality was even more clear if not as heinous.
Romney, maybe Toomey and Murkowski. Maybe Collins if she is sufficiently concerned. Burr I guess? And at that point you still need another dozen Republican Senators.
Maybe this is when the Republican party cuts bait, but I doubt it.
Impeachment is not about removal or conviction. It is a political move. It may be (and almost certainly is) one born of reasserting basic political norms and even doing what is right, but the facts of the case are only relevant to the extent that they sway votes in the Senate, and to the extent that the legislative actions impact voter support.
Trump will face actual criminal repercussions at least at the state level after Jan 20th. There facts will matter more (hopefully). Until then its about political power.
We cannot let the fucking recalcitrance of the GOP to hold us back forever Pants.
They invited sedition and promulgated an assault on Congress.
There were armed terrorists, ready with planning, flex cuffs and the motivation to do the unspeakable.
That's a cop out. They'll impeach tomorrow, roughly. They'll even have some Republican votes. And Trump will almost certainly not be convicted. That isn't "holding back" that's reality.
I don't think I care as much about the impeachment question after seeing the sheer number of people getting arrested since Wednesday.
I don't know what the process is for kicking people out of the House or Senate, but that seems like a more worthwhile avenue to seek out than the impeachment proceeding.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
The impeachment has to happen, whether or not he's actually convicted is another story and is, in my honest opinion, the less important of the two.
I don't think I care as much about the impeachment question after seeing the sheer number of people getting arrested since Wednesday.
I don't know what the process is for kicking people out of the House or Senate, but that seems like a more worthwhile avenue to seek out than the impeachment proceeding.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik there's a few things you could do:
You can censure someone fairly easily. That's basically, in the House, Pelosi decides she wants to do it and it's done. But that's just "Pelosi makes you stand in front of the class and yells at you". Like, almost literally. The Senate McConnell I think would have to do it, so you know, pfft.
Expulsion would be the "throw them out of the chamber" option but that requires 2/3rds votes so it's about as likely as impeachment. Maybe slightly more so honestly since everyone hates Cruz.
This is why you've seen the 14th amendment floated around. Section 3 says insurrectionists can't hold office. There's been some suggestions, and Pelosi outright mentioning it in her letter suggests some of those suggestions are coming from inside the caucus, to use section 3 to chuck a bunch of people out of Congress for supporting this crap.
I'm not aware of any other options for dealing with the people in Congress.
The impeachment has to happen, whether or not he's actually convicted is another story and is, in my honest opinion, the less important of the two.
Impeachment in the House is almost assured, the question is what follows.
Trump being convicted in the Senate is all but impossible even once the GA Senators are seated on the 23rd. So does the Senate move to vote immediately thereby empowering the GOP sycophants and coward to say we should move past this for whatever mealy mouthed reason the media will buy, or allow witnesses and time for investigations that brings public light to just how implicated the GOP is in allowing traitors to nearly murder Congress?
I for one feel that convicting Trump is a lost cause and that the real focus should be on public hearings on witness and investigations results. Unfortunately, that takes time.
Putting GOP Senators on the record will happen, it’s what leads up to that is what matters.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
the articles of impeachment need to be sent to the senate the day after they are voted on
otherwise the house is essentially saying 'we don't believe that trump represents a real threat' and they will be (rightfully) verbally crucified by everyone
the articles of impeachment need to be sent to the senate the day after they are voted on
otherwise the house is essentially saying 'we don't believe that trump represents a real threat' and they will be (rightfully) verbally crucified by everyone
That’s all well and good, but what do we think will happen when McConnell doesn’t allow witnesses or subpoenas or anything else and forces a rapid vote just like last time? Trump will not likely be removed nor will it work as a preemptive for potential domestic terrorist attacks already in the works.
Sure, the traitors and enablers in the Senate will be forced to vote on the record, but that’s all it allows and both the media and general public is fickle with the next election two years away, while making further Senate investigations a political issue without the backdrop of an impeachment trial having already been voted upon.
Waiting for McConnell to lose leadership and allowing time for witnesses and the FBI and DOJ to complete at least some investigations into GOP traitors is the best path forward IMO.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
the articles of impeachment need to be sent to the senate the day after they are voted on
otherwise the house is essentially saying 'we don't believe that trump represents a real threat' and they will be (rightfully) verbally crucified by everyone
That’s all well and good, but what do we think will happen when McConnell doesn’t allow witnesses or subpoenas or anything else and forces a rapid vote just like last time? Trump will not likely be removed nor will it work as a preemptive for potential domestic terrorist attacks already in the works.
Sure, the traitors and enablers in the Senate will be forced to vote on the record, but that’s all it allows and both the media and general public is fickle with the next election two years away, while making further Senate investigations a political issue without the backdrop of an impeachment trial having been already being voted upon.
Waiting for McConnell to lose leadership and allowing time for witnesses and the FBI and DOJ to complete at least some investigations into GOP traitors is the best path forward IMO.
I know it might not play well, but if McConnell did that, I'd be "Fuck it, we'll do it again after the 20th.", and push the narrative that Republican leadership is actively complicit.
I know the media treat Republicans and Democrats differently, but that's never going to change if Democrats continue to kowtow out of fear of messaging, and Republicans continue to be the party of "Yeah, I shit myself, what are you gonna do about it?".
Be tge party of "adults in the room", but call the screaming shitflingers out for what they are. Anything else just concedes that you consider your opposition to be on the same level as you and/or are afraid of the media.
There's a reason people like AOC, Sanders, Schatz and Schiff get the base animated. I get that the politics of the first two might not fly in deep purple states, but it's their engagement as much as it is their policies that do that.
Who is satisfied by a 100 day delay in impeachment? The people who want it now are going to be pissed off. The people who want it held off aren't going to want it in 100 days.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Waiting the 100 days might be the best thing from the potential results of the trial, although I don't think it's likely to produce a conviction anyway. Might be less of a sham trial.
Waiting the 100 days is extremely terrible for optics though. I understand the logic but am still pissed off at them. If you're unlikely to get a conviction anyway I believe it's a terrible idea to wait, people got killed and there was a coup attempt, you can't wait in dealing with this. No research but I get a gut feeling that waiting would disillusion people en masse from ever voting in anything again.
PSN: Honkalot
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
the articles of impeachment need to be sent to the senate the day after they are voted on
otherwise the house is essentially saying 'we don't believe that trump represents a real threat' and they will be (rightfully) verbally crucified by everyone
The problem with doing that literally is that the next day is inauguration.
the articles of impeachment need to be sent to the senate the day after they are voted on
otherwise the house is essentially saying 'we don't believe that trump represents a real threat' and they will be (rightfully) verbally crucified by everyone
That’s all well and good, but what do we think will happen when McConnell doesn’t allow witnesses or subpoenas or anything else and forces a rapid vote just like last time? Trump will not likely be removed nor will it work as a preemptive for potential domestic terrorist attacks already in the works.
Sure, the traitors and enablers in the Senate will be forced to vote on the record, but that’s all it allows and both the media and general public is fickle with the next election two years away, while making further Senate investigations a political issue without the backdrop of an impeachment trial having already been voted upon.
Waiting for McConnell to lose leadership and allowing time for witnesses and the FBI and DOJ to complete at least some investigations into GOP traitors is the best path forward IMO.
The day Congress opens is the 19th. The next day is inauguration, and then 2 or 3 days after that the GA senators are sworn in, and control flips.
I guess my take is that the most critical goal for me is impeachment and conviction of Trump.
I want him barred from public office because without that 2024 is absolutely going to be 2016 2.0 and I'm willing to put up with whatever the hell it takes to prevent that.
I want this cult of personality to have a future that is firmly sealed within a coffin shut by constitutional nails.
I guess my take is that the most critical goal for me is impeachment and conviction of Trump.
I want him barred from public office because without that 2024 is absolutely going to be 2016 2.0 and I'm willing to put up with whatever the hell it takes to prevent that.
I want this cult of personality to have a future that is firmly sealed within a coffin shut by constitutional nails.
And the thing is, this is what Republicans should want too. If Trump is alive in 4 years I don’t see any way he doesn’t run, and if he does he’ll win the primary.
I guess my take is that the most critical goal for me is impeachment and conviction of Trump.
I want him barred from public office because without that 2024 is absolutely going to be 2016 2.0 and I'm willing to put up with whatever the hell it takes to prevent that.
I want this cult of personality to have a future that is firmly sealed within a coffin shut by constitutional nails.
And the thing is, this is what Republicans should want too. If Trump is alive in 4 years I don’t see any way he doesn’t run, and if he does he’ll win the primary.
Or, if he doesn't win the primary, he'll do enough damage to sink them in the general. Because they'll either have to go as bugnuts as he is, or those that might have been fine with a non-bugnuts candidate, but will absolutely tear shit down if they don't step aside for their chosen one (think 2008 PUMA or 2016 Bernie Bros).
So if they want to win the primary AND have a chance in the general, they can't have Trump run.
Honestly, I hope they're stuck in the wilderness for decades, but I'd rather have a somewhat principled conservative (also, a pony, a unicorn pony), than a repeat or facsimile of Trumpism.
I'm of the opinion that the House needs to impeach and send it to the Senate ASAP. If the GOP won't do anything, that's on them, but this is an event that simply has to be acted upon. He won't be removed (though I'd bet you get at least a handful of GOP Senators to sign on) but if an honest to goodness act of sedition can't get it to happen then we rapidly approach the point of it no longer mattering.
Same with voting to expel the Traitor Caucus. Even if you don't have the votes you have to at least send a message.
Trump won't be removed, but like last time (sigh) the object is to get them on record, and hope that means something when everyone is up for re-election.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited January 2021
I had written a pretty long post about "we all agree that the president needs to be impeached and convicted, the only question is how best to get there," and "posting on videogame webforums isn't going to change the political outcome" doesn't mean capitulation or thinking we live in a monarchy, but very clearly means that if you want results in changing the democratic process the Penny Arcade forums aren't going to sway your congressperson or voters hearts and minds, and "painting this as a purity test and those who disagree with you as literal nazi-enablers is pretty goosish," but it doesn't matter.
None of that matters. Nothing I type here will be taken in context. Anyone who doesn't think lockstep with that group will be vilified by them just as plainly as if we marched on the capital ourselves, no matter what the reality is or what our positions very clearly are.
I come to these threads because I'm a left-leaning democrat in a solidly red county in a solidly red state. My family drank to coolaid, most of my coworkers the same, and this is a place where I could discuss and process these topics. I'm sick of being called a fucking nazi for wondering "which way would get Trump gone for good?" So I'm gonna bow out.
As much as I’m ranting, it’s to beg folks to stop treating this like they do any other congressional roadblock scenario, where everyone is expected to sagely acknowledge the Wonkish Wisdom of “political capital” as a finite resource that more often than not boils down to “do we really want to do a thing when the GOP will just scuttle it?”
Which happens with every. Single. Fucking. Thing. That comes up here for as far back as I can remember, often from the same people each time like clockwork.
Except this time we’re not dealing with an M4A bill. Or some better labor protection regs. Or any of the other issues we’ve basically cratered to the ground at this point, or when we bickered about if it was really prudent and wise to impeach trump the first time.
No
This time we’re talking about impeachment over the fact the president directed his supporters to attack congress to stop the certification of the election he lost.
And somehow we still have the same folks wringing their hands about how it will ultimately be a futile gesture that won’t make a difference because of the GOP, where like before the subtext is that, therefore, we should not pursue that course because it could have some blowback that invariably emboldens and empowers the GOP.
So no, no one is calling anyone here a fucking Nazi. Just fed up that this fucking nightmare is getting treated with the same blasé disregard that any other suggestion that we change the status quo for the better seems to get in our countless US politics threads
I’m tired of a defeatist attitude being propped up with a few beltway buzzwords and passed off as realpolitik
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
So if we shouldn't treat this issue the same as we do every other, why are you?
Honestly, it hasn't even been 24 hours since Clyburn put forward the 100 days nonsense, so let's see what the actual plan is first, maybe?
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when you let it slide, the fascists grow bolder
a video game, but depressingly politically relevant
“You don’t get it, do you? Before all this, before the Germans, before the war: back home, man, you were the Nazis!”
But if we don’t impeach Trump and expel his co-conspirators? We’ll sure as hell be a lot closer to it than any sensible person whose studied history should be comfortable with.
There's a moral imperative that says impeaching Trump after he incites an attempted coup is more than warranted. It likely won't result it his removal and would only remove him from power maybe 10 days early at the outside and prevent a theoretical run in four years if more traditional law enforcement doesn't land him behind bars or dread before then but it sends a message that this behavior can't stand.
vs
The effort is unlikely to succeed because Republicans are monsters who are too dumb to cut bait and too scared of their base to try to change it. The political capital expended in an ultimately futile gesture will hamper real life policy goals of the Biden Administration including covid efforts. Excess people would likely due due to the reduced political power that could be directed at covid and other critical problems and Republicans would be more likely to regain power in two years. The Trump Administration showed norms are only as powerful as the people in power say they are, so the retention of government control is more pressing than setting a precedent or norm that this behavior won't stand.
Now I lean towards the former, but I can't really dismiss the latter. The biggest question is has the limit to Republican shame and cowardice in the Senate been hit? Or perhaps do some of those with ambition realize they can't out-Trump Trump and know they need to do away with a potential rival if they are to reform the expectations of their base to something that they are more likely to win over. If there is chance at actually convicting him in the Senate or if the political capital expended is negligible to negative (maybe it can win over some voters) it becomes easy but that's not an easy question. There's been some reporting that (somehow) there are enough votes to remove but I find it hard to rely on Republicans Senators en masse not being terrible and stupid.
I think in the end you have to just bite the bullet and do it because it was so egregious, but I can understand the hesitance that this could take focus away from DC statehood, 13 Justices, the Voting Rights Act and covid.
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https://news.yahoo.com/no-thing-political-capital-201002390--politics.html
Because all it’s fucking doing right now is giving you an excuse to not eject the people who instigated a coup against certifying the election of the President of the United States.
This isn’t all the fucking arguments we’ve had about M4A, for the increase of the medium wage, for UBI or whatever fucking divisions we’ve argued about in the past year
This is about holding accountable the politicians who betrayed their oaths to the public and engaged in sedition against not simply our government, but against the very idea that we could vote against them
This was a coup to pave the way for authoritarian grabs of power and the death of democratic representation in America in favor of permanent Republican control
They absolutely, goddamn, fucking will. We have seen history prove this out before. This is not something we can just wait out and let it fix itself.
The president of the United States of America purposefully instigated a crowd of his supporters to attack Congress in hopes of scaring them into handing him the presidency. Several Senators and even more House representatives aided and abetted him in this effort, including after the attack.
Impeach him, expel them from their seats and do not let them back in, because they are literal threats to democracy.
I'd love it if these threads didn't always, always devolve into left vs other left infighting. But, man. Even on this thing where we all essentially agree on everything but the minute details people are being pretty shitty to eachother.
What the hell is Congress for if not to expel those in the government who commit sedition against the very notion of democratic representation
It’s a Democracy.
They’re not our kings, not our lords.
They’re our representatives.
So at some point? Yeah, it does fall on those of us who are politically aware enough to understand what is going on. And trying to make excuses ahead of time for the failure of our representatives to do their jobs against fucking fascists is a shit way to manage our responsibilities as the citizens of a democracy.
At some point, shit devolves into “left versus other left fighting” is because some folks seem to think that we can just keep skating by and shit will be fine as it the inertia of past politics will carry us through, and the rest of us are looking around at the fires threatening to burn us all alive and asking what the fuck is wrong with you, grab a fucking hose”
EDIT: In the words of KC Green:
https://thenib.com/this-is-not-fine/
One of them is “we should have taken this way more seriously way sooner”
“That Hitler guy’s no threat! Guy is such a clown!” - literally everyone aware of Hitler in the 30s
“Oh fuck” - Literally everyone reading about the Enabling Act
Fascists are uniformly pathetic people. After all the type of person who wants their political opponents jailed and killed, does so because they're terribly offended on an individual basis about someone thinking ill of them.
But it doesn't make them any less dangerous.
There is no bottom.
I feel like everyone capable of recognizing the arc very much did recognize it and then said something about it and then voted to stop it, but any desire by the populace to stop the threat early was completely countermanded by how much fucking money media outlets were making off the situation because they couldn't give less of a shit about a potentially-fascist nation as long as they could keep lining their pockets.
If the Democratic party wasn't about to have the power to drop the anti-monopoly hammer it should've dropped 10-15 years ago, I can guarantee the social media venues would be doing fuck-all against Trump now. They would be pouring all their efforts into amplifying his message and trying to destroy his opposition, while shutting down Democratic opposition. That Georgia runoff is probably the only thing that tipped social media outlets over the line to pretending they suddenly care about truth and actual democracy.
The totally spineless traditional media outlets also fucked this up considerably, simply be allowing mealy-mouthed double-talk and outright lies to become the acceptable norm. If interviewers would hammer politicians on the points they keep trying to talk around and refuse to let them wiggle their way free of things they don't want to discuss, again, we would not be where we are now. We just need plain, direct shit like forcing Trump to say the names of all these "they" groups he brings up to amp up rumors, with not one damn reporter allowing him to have another question until he fesses up that there is no "they" or he walks out.
This is not simply an issue of cultural engagement, this is hugely about unrestrained capitalism enormously distorting information to make the rich even more rich while trying to strip more power from people who see the problems.
Let’s keep things in perspective here; even if we had all six infinity stones and snapped our fingers to immediately put Trump in prison, that doesn’t also stop whatever next domestic terrorism event from happening. I just don’t see whatever rightwing terrorist group dropping all plans for their next violent attempt at insurrection because Trump is impeached or 25th’d. So IMO, removing Trump to stop the next attack is immaterial, as it’s either gonna be attempted or not regardless of Trump being in office.
Trump is only the immediate problem in that he’s still POTUS with all the power and threat that entails, but like I said, there simply isn’t a likely path to remove him before his term is up. We need to accept that in all likelihood, Trump will remain in office until Biden is sworn in no matter what course the House takes next week. The long term problem, and the one we should be focused on, is all the enablers that allowed us to get to this point in the first place. The Stephen Millers, the Giulianis, the Flynns, the Meadows, and all the other fuckers installed in our government that enabled this attack on our democracy to happen, especially the conspirators that almost assuredly exist in federal agencies.
This is about more than just Trump. In order to get them all there needs to be a thorough investigation and public inquiry into the how, who, what, and all the other W’s in order to excise our public agencies of assholes that enabled this insurrection.
Rushing this too fast gives the GOP political cover and risks fucking the investigation up. I don’t just want Trump, I want every single one of them and a public, thorough investigation is the best way to ensure that. It sucks and I wish things were different, but they aren’t and unless there is a more realistic path to remove Trump before the 20th, the best path forward for the safety of the nation is to give time for the Dems to take over the Senate, give time for Biden to remove Trump sycophants from US agencies, give time to the FBI and DOJ to investigate, and give time to the new Senate to bring those results to the public and force the GOP to vote on what is discovered.
I don’t know how long that will reasonably take, but I am confident that rushing a Senate vote before a thorough investigation only serves to provide cover for all the GOP that enabled and covered for this attack on our democracy. And IMO, giving chance for these traitors to remain in positions of power because of a rushed investigations is far more dangerous to the safety of the nation, because they will try again. We may not be so lucky next time.
Edit: I am not against the House voting for impeachment, that should’ve happened yesterday. I am against rushing the trial and investigation. That needs to be very thorough. Like I said, I don’t just want Trump. I want them all.
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They will try this again. Impeachment will not stop them from doing that because it doesn't actually change the incentive structures that caused this to happen in the first place. It's a mistake to think impeachment will actually stop the shit Trump or the GOP is doing.
I may have agreed a few months ago, but right know the iron is fucking hot and you strike, goddamnit.
You strip him of all his presidential benefits and ban him from ever running from office again. That sounds p fucking important.
But to do that you need 17 Republican Senators to agree to convict him.
He was obviously and overtly guilty last time. His criminality was even more clear if not as heinous.
Romney, maybe Toomey and Murkowski. Maybe Collins if she is sufficiently concerned. Burr I guess? And at that point you still need another dozen Republican Senators.
Maybe this is when the Republican party cuts bait, but I doubt it.
Impeachment is not about removal or conviction. It is a political move. It may be (and almost certainly is) one born of reasserting basic political norms and even doing what is right, but the facts of the case are only relevant to the extent that they sway votes in the Senate, and to the extent that the legislative actions impact voter support.
Trump will face actual criminal repercussions at least at the state level after Jan 20th. There facts will matter more (hopefully). Until then its about political power.
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If Ted Cruz wanted to keep his seat, he shouldn’t have done his part in stoking this fucking fire. Hawley and the rest of their brigade too
Let their final acts in Washington be to have to walk down the steps of the Capitol pouting, their office belongings in a too small box as they’re kicked to the metaphorical curb.
Maybe the indignity of having to chase after some brickabrack that tumbled out of the box
We cannot let the fucking recalcitrance of the GOP to hold us back forever Pants.
They invited sedition and promulgated an assault on Congress.
There were armed terrorists, ready with planning, flex cuffs and the motivation to do the unspeakable.
That's a cop out. They'll impeach tomorrow, roughly. They'll even have some Republican votes. And Trump will almost certainly not be convicted. That isn't "holding back" that's reality.
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I don't know what the process is for kicking people out of the House or Senate, but that seems like a more worthwhile avenue to seek out than the impeachment proceeding.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik there's a few things you could do:
You can censure someone fairly easily. That's basically, in the House, Pelosi decides she wants to do it and it's done. But that's just "Pelosi makes you stand in front of the class and yells at you". Like, almost literally. The Senate McConnell I think would have to do it, so you know, pfft.
Expulsion would be the "throw them out of the chamber" option but that requires 2/3rds votes so it's about as likely as impeachment. Maybe slightly more so honestly since everyone hates Cruz.
This is why you've seen the 14th amendment floated around. Section 3 says insurrectionists can't hold office. There's been some suggestions, and Pelosi outright mentioning it in her letter suggests some of those suggestions are coming from inside the caucus, to use section 3 to chuck a bunch of people out of Congress for supporting this crap.
I'm not aware of any other options for dealing with the people in Congress.
Impeachment in the House is almost assured, the question is what follows.
Trump being convicted in the Senate is all but impossible even once the GA Senators are seated on the 23rd. So does the Senate move to vote immediately thereby empowering the GOP sycophants and coward to say we should move past this for whatever mealy mouthed reason the media will buy, or allow witnesses and time for investigations that brings public light to just how implicated the GOP is in allowing traitors to nearly murder Congress?
I for one feel that convicting Trump is a lost cause and that the real focus should be on public hearings on witness and investigations results. Unfortunately, that takes time.
Putting GOP Senators on the record will happen, it’s what leads up to that is what matters.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
otherwise the house is essentially saying 'we don't believe that trump represents a real threat' and they will be (rightfully) verbally crucified by everyone
That’s all well and good, but what do we think will happen when McConnell doesn’t allow witnesses or subpoenas or anything else and forces a rapid vote just like last time? Trump will not likely be removed nor will it work as a preemptive for potential domestic terrorist attacks already in the works.
Sure, the traitors and enablers in the Senate will be forced to vote on the record, but that’s all it allows and both the media and general public is fickle with the next election two years away, while making further Senate investigations a political issue without the backdrop of an impeachment trial having already been voted upon.
Waiting for McConnell to lose leadership and allowing time for witnesses and the FBI and DOJ to complete at least some investigations into GOP traitors is the best path forward IMO.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I know it might not play well, but if McConnell did that, I'd be "Fuck it, we'll do it again after the 20th.", and push the narrative that Republican leadership is actively complicit.
I know the media treat Republicans and Democrats differently, but that's never going to change if Democrats continue to kowtow out of fear of messaging, and Republicans continue to be the party of "Yeah, I shit myself, what are you gonna do about it?".
Be tge party of "adults in the room", but call the screaming shitflingers out for what they are. Anything else just concedes that you consider your opposition to be on the same level as you and/or are afraid of the media.
There's a reason people like AOC, Sanders, Schatz and Schiff get the base animated. I get that the politics of the first two might not fly in deep purple states, but it's their engagement as much as it is their policies that do that.
Who is satisfied by a 100 day delay in impeachment? The people who want it now are going to be pissed off. The people who want it held off aren't going to want it in 100 days.
Waiting the 100 days is extremely terrible for optics though. I understand the logic but am still pissed off at them. If you're unlikely to get a conviction anyway I believe it's a terrible idea to wait, people got killed and there was a coup attempt, you can't wait in dealing with this. No research but I get a gut feeling that waiting would disillusion people en masse from ever voting in anything again.
The problem with doing that literally is that the next day is inauguration.
The day Congress opens is the 19th. The next day is inauguration, and then 2 or 3 days after that the GA senators are sworn in, and control flips.
I want him barred from public office because without that 2024 is absolutely going to be 2016 2.0 and I'm willing to put up with whatever the hell it takes to prevent that.
I want this cult of personality to have a future that is firmly sealed within a coffin shut by constitutional nails.
And the thing is, this is what Republicans should want too. If Trump is alive in 4 years I don’t see any way he doesn’t run, and if he does he’ll win the primary.
Or, if he doesn't win the primary, he'll do enough damage to sink them in the general. Because they'll either have to go as bugnuts as he is, or those that might have been fine with a non-bugnuts candidate, but will absolutely tear shit down if they don't step aside for their chosen one (think 2008 PUMA or 2016 Bernie Bros).
So if they want to win the primary AND have a chance in the general, they can't have Trump run.
Honestly, I hope they're stuck in the wilderness for decades, but I'd rather have a somewhat principled conservative (also, a pony, a unicorn pony), than a repeat or facsimile of Trumpism.
Same with voting to expel the Traitor Caucus. Even if you don't have the votes you have to at least send a message.
None of that matters. Nothing I type here will be taken in context. Anyone who doesn't think lockstep with that group will be vilified by them just as plainly as if we marched on the capital ourselves, no matter what the reality is or what our positions very clearly are.
I come to these threads because I'm a left-leaning democrat in a solidly red county in a solidly red state. My family drank to coolaid, most of my coworkers the same, and this is a place where I could discuss and process these topics. I'm sick of being called a fucking nazi for wondering "which way would get Trump gone for good?" So I'm gonna bow out.
As much as I’m ranting, it’s to beg folks to stop treating this like they do any other congressional roadblock scenario, where everyone is expected to sagely acknowledge the Wonkish Wisdom of “political capital” as a finite resource that more often than not boils down to “do we really want to do a thing when the GOP will just scuttle it?”
Which happens with every. Single. Fucking. Thing. That comes up here for as far back as I can remember, often from the same people each time like clockwork.
Except this time we’re not dealing with an M4A bill. Or some better labor protection regs. Or any of the other issues we’ve basically cratered to the ground at this point, or when we bickered about if it was really prudent and wise to impeach trump the first time.
No
This time we’re talking about impeachment over the fact the president directed his supporters to attack congress to stop the certification of the election he lost.
And somehow we still have the same folks wringing their hands about how it will ultimately be a futile gesture that won’t make a difference because of the GOP, where like before the subtext is that, therefore, we should not pursue that course because it could have some blowback that invariably emboldens and empowers the GOP.
So no, no one is calling anyone here a fucking Nazi. Just fed up that this fucking nightmare is getting treated with the same blasé disregard that any other suggestion that we change the status quo for the better seems to get in our countless US politics threads
I’m tired of a defeatist attitude being propped up with a few beltway buzzwords and passed off as realpolitik
Honestly, it hasn't even been 24 hours since Clyburn put forward the 100 days nonsense, so let's see what the actual plan is first, maybe?