Eight lvl 90s? I am jealous! I have no idea how you get so many books. I cap my guys at 81 and I’m still barely scraping up enough xp to level my supports.
I didn't notice that. I can't imagine leveling that many characters to 90, like, ever. I've only gotten a couple fully ascended, and the only characters I'd consider taking beyond 81 are the ones that scale off HP or defense.
I did take Beidou to 90 because of bias, though.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
I took Jean and Mona to 90 because they're favorites, but Childe, Hu Tao, Keqing, Bennett, and Ningguang are all 81 and probably staying there.
Eight lvl 90s? I am jealous! I have no idea how you get so many books. I cap my guys at 81 and I’m still barely scraping up enough xp to level my supports.
Nine actually. I took them all to 81 first but eventually ended up leveling them all. I used Razor in floors 9 + 10, but not 11 + 12 this time.
Chars + Levels
Geared people are all the 90s and 80s, sans Noelle who I haven't gotten to yet. Though Xinyan needs to be rebuilt and Traveler could use better artifacts as well. I'm currently working on re-gearing Fishl (and gearing Beidou a little bit while I do that) while also prepping for Eula and maybe Rosaria.
Eight lvl 90s? I am jealous! I have no idea how you get so many books. I cap my guys at 81 and I’m still barely scraping up enough xp to level my supports.
I find that between the battlepass, event rewards, and daily resin stuff, I’m always pretty well-stocked in purple xp books.
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
Out of curiosity for people who are using pure support Kaeya, what sets did you decide to go on him? 4 Noblesse? 2 Noblesse+2 Cryo? Aiming at a superconduct comp if it matters.
Either is fine, but I'd personally go for a 4 piece that gives a benefit to the active char. The 15% cryo isn't really something that matters much, especially not for Kaeya's burst.
Either is fine, but I'd personally go for a 4 piece that gives a benefit to the active char. The 15% cryo isn't really something that matters much, especially not for Kaeya's burst.
I might agree with preferring 4 pc Noblesse, but Kaeya can do a pretty substantial amount of damage with his burst and his E. I could definitely see using 2 pc of each working out pretty well. I've seem some parties that don't specifically use him to enable another character, and rather just have a lot of different attacks going out and don't really care which attack triggers reactions. In a party like that where he might be getting some Melt procs, maximizing his personal damage would make a lot of sense.
Random through while running Peculiar Wonderland in pursuit of the correct events:
If they ever plan to release a Qiqi banner, I really hope they take some time to revise that poor zombie-girl, and dramatically so. Because if Keqing can't open up the wallets (comparatively so), what hope would Qiqi have?
While I've defended her in the past, it's increasingly apparent that she's of substantially lower power than all other 5-stars, and the most charitable (albeit reductive) description is "Cryo Jean, but worse". My intuition is that they may have started with a design that leaned into the zombie flavor and revive mechanic of her C6, but then got scared of those functions in terms of game balance and just slopped together this hodgepodge.
I think it'd be neat if they pursued something like an inverse-Hu Tao, where you were incentivized to maintain full health and leverage high Healing Bonus as an effective means to that end. At the very least, it'd be nice if she had a better 1st Ascension Talent.
The thing about QiQi is that unless they give her something other than healing she's not going to be useful at the top end.
Not taking damage > Healing, which leaves healers in kind of a bad spot overall
Sure. And that's partly why I believe Qiqi needs a radical redesign. But, if MiHoYo feels it necessary to just have some lesser characters (which feels extra bad when a 5-star is defined as such), I think they ought to at least pursue slight tweaks, like letting Herald of Frost clear and prevent elemental debuffs.
I mean, just think how absurd it is that her C6 is on a 15 Minute cooldown! They were absolutely terrified by how it could distort the balance of the Abyss, even knowing that almost none of their players could conceivably acquire it.
The thing about QiQi is that unless they give her something other than healing she's not going to be useful at the top end.
Not taking damage > Healing, which leaves healers in kind of a bad spot overall
I doubt MHY is going to bother reworking her since she works fine as a healer. I'd love a buff sure since I have her but the only character they've really buffed so far was Zhongli and that took an epic shitstorm.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
The thing about QiQi is that unless they give her something other than healing she's not going to be useful at the top end.
Not taking damage > Healing, which leaves healers in kind of a bad spot overall
You don't need to build her as a healer at all tho. She does enough default healing without any investment you can build her for burst support without focusing on healing at all (and no maidens, ew, get that shit out of here, waste of time) and she will still heal your characters to full with ease.
And building her like that does work in end game content. And heals you.
Build: 2 pc nobless oblige. 2 pc cryo% set.
Cryo %, Attack%, Crit %, Crit Damage% etc all that. Also some energy recharge.
Don't stack attack% because you lose out on a lot of burst damage and she does not need it for healing, you want cryo%.
Sacrificial still best, since her burst is costly, but it has very high damage scaling, better than a fair few dps, which is why this build works even in end game content.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
You could do the same with any Cryo character though if you just wanted to apply Cryo
The additional "And it heals" has a very limited value in my eyes, but I think healing in general is mostly pretty inessential
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Qiqi can get respectable damage out of her burst if she's built for it (in large part because of elemental reactions), but it's a lot of effort to gear up for an 80 energy burst on a character that has a hard time generating energy for it. Personally I just stick with maiden's set so she can properly provide the big heals for selfish carries like Razor, because if you're not trying to efficiently top up a selfish carry...why are you using Qiqi? There's just better options available at that point.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2021
Because she can heal him to full anyway (without burst). With her talent that pops a seal on for normal attacks then swap back. Without maidens. In seconds. You might as well do damage in that case whenever you swap to her and she has a burst up.
She does not need maidens to top up the selfish carry.
That min max mentality? Its a trap here. You are being less efficient not more.
Sometimes hybrid is actually better. More than the sum of the parts.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
I agree that Maidens is a trap set
I disagree that she is very good as burst support, and that video showing a Melt proc for like 30k only really helps my argument when Kaeya can do that with his elemental skill
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
I used Maidens on Diona, but I really think I'm going to be switching it to a 2pc Maiden/2pc whatever the new +HP set is called once 1.5 comes around.
I used Maidens on Diona, but I really think I'm going to be switching it to a 2pc Maiden/2pc whatever the new +HP set is called once 1.5 comes around.
I actually literally just swapped her over to 4pc Noblesse, though I haven't had the opportunity to test that yet.
--
Qiqi's issue is that the current perma content just rewards doing damage as fast as possible. Further, if you kill things -really- fast, you can even dodge more annoying parts of their patterns. Golems don't get time to spin if you're really disgustingly kitted out, Cicin Electro Witches don't go into their fuck everything mode, etc.
Even on a floor that does a lot of hard to avoid damage like the current 12, it's still hard to justify bringing her over shielders or healers who at least buff or have better reactions because her burst is then only an okay spike unless you really really put a lot of investment in.
Because she can heal him to full anyway (without burst). With her talent that pops a seal on for normal attacks then swap back. Without maidens. In seconds. You might as well do damage in that case whenever you swap to her and she has a burst up.
She does not need maidens to top up the selfish carry.
That min max mentality? Its a trap here. You are being less efficient not more.
Sometimes hybrid is actually better. More than the sum of the parts.
The point isn't that she "needs" maiden's to function, it's that you don't bring her at all unless you want healing and her elemental application. She doesn't have her burst up often enough to build her as a burst support, and frankly it's kind of a silly effort to jump through all the prep involved to gear her up to do so. Burst supports make sense in team comps where you want to switch around your characters, not in comps where you're bringing healers to keep your carries healthy.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2021
Theres no point gearing her as a healer because she massively overheals and its all wasted. You might as well chuck that gear out the window. Her base attack alone is enough to keep a carry up.
Nobody needs a healing optimised Qiqi. Period. Burst support is her optimal build for all roles.
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It's more like "nobody needs a healer," which is why Qiqi and Barbara are bad characters who don't see much play on serious content. But there's no universe where a character with an 80 energy cost burst and poor energy generation is ideally used as a burst support. If you want a burst support with off field healing application you'd bring Bennett for that, because his burst is both cheaper and he creates far more energy than Qiqi ever will.
Recommending a damage dealing burst Qiqi is like recommending dps Barbara. Yeah, she can get some numbers with her charge attacks if you gear her up to do so, just like you can get some numbers on Qiqi's burst. But it's a huge waste of resin to get that gear for her and it's never gonna compare to what a proper dps could be doing in the same situation, and sacrificing their purpose (healing and aura element application) to try to get mediocre damage out of them instead is just missing the point. Fast clears are never going to be based around a burst Qiqi any more than they would a dps Barbara.
It's more like "nobody needs a healer," which is why Qiqi and Barbara are bad characters who don't see much play on serious content. But there's no universe where a character with an 80 energy cost burst and poor energy generation is ideally used as a burst support. If you want a burst support with off field healing application you'd bring Bennett for that, because his burst is both cheaper and he creates far more energy than Qiqi ever will.
Recommending a damage dealing burst Qiqi is like recommending dps Barbara. Yeah, she can get some numbers with her charge attacks if you gear her up to do so, just like you can get some numbers on Qiqi's burst. But it's a huge waste of resin to get that gear for her and it's never gonna compare to what a proper dps could be doing in the same situation, and sacrificing their purpose (healing and aura element application) to try to get mediocre damage out of them instead is just missing the point. Fast clears are never going to be based around a burst Qiqi any more than they would a dps Barbara.
No. It's because there is no point in gearing her for healing so you might as well build her for burst support.
That's it. That is the logic. It's straight up as simple as that. Nothing you have said changes this.
With only base attack (that's level + weapon) she can keep a carry up just fine.
That means her gear (artifacts, setpiece) are all completely optional. She does not need gear to keep the carry up. If that is the case there is no reason not to make her a burst support because no matter what you are getting something more useful out of her because her healing job is already done.
If you are using her as a healer, you do not need to go hard on her to make her a burst support. You can go nice and light, good enough artifacts, even some you might have lying around. In that video I posted her burst is only level 6 and she's doing absolutely fine. The resin cost is equivalent.
You do not need a lot of investment. You need about the same investment as you would to put her in maidens. You just point that investment at burst support instead, and you get everything you want from a healer and she can be more useful to boot. This myth that you need to focus on this build hard is false. She's good enough that it isn't necessary. You can half ass her burst support build and she's still more useful than geared for healing.
I am saying nothing unusual here. It's just a fact of how the numbers and logic work out that Burst Support is the better build, for all situations, for the same cost in resin as giving her healing gear. That's just how good she is, naturally, at healing. She doesn't need any further help at healing. This is not a dps barbara situation. It's not a fringe build, at all. This is a very simple piece of logic, that is based on her utterly absurd healing potential, which is so high that focusing on it is a complete waste of time because nobody has enough hp to make it worthwhile doing so. It makes sense, and there's no reason to do anything else.
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I gear my Qiqi for her E damage and doing her primary job well. /shrug.
And no, you don't need to gear her for healing to heal a single character. You can just use her talisman proc for that. But it's very effective for her to be geared for Attack and maybe even healing bonus when you're using her to quickly heal your entire team at once, including someone who might be too low and dangerous to swap in.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2021
Yeah like, I'm not saying go make a burst support QiQqi she will solve all your problems and make her a high tier 5 star and the best burst support etc and I don't see what I said that makes it sound like that's the way it should be read.
I was responding to two assertions: 1). she must be geared for healing, and 2). she cannot scale late game.
Neither are true. 1). It doesn't make sense to make anything other than burst support, and 2). that burst support does scale into late game.
Those are pretty specific points.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
New topic: I just now found the time to sit down and read through Eula's leaked abilities and holy hell she looks like she's going to do a hell of a lot of damage. What the hell is with that burst.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
New topic: I just now found the time to sit down and read through Eula's leaked abilities and holy hell she looks like she's going to do a hell of a lot of damage. What the hell is with that burst.
You're only gonna be able to stack up to around 15 stacks. The 30 stacks is only for C6 Turbo Whales. It's still really strong though.
New topic: I just now found the time to sit down and read through Eula's leaked abilities and holy hell she looks like she's going to do a hell of a lot of damage. What the hell is with that burst.
You're only gonna be able to stack up to around 15 stacks. The 30 stacks is only for C6 Turbo Whales. It's still really strong though.
That's already ridiculous!
Talent level 6 of that burst does 600% physical already without any stacks!
plus 96% per stack.
Lets say you hit 15. That's 1400% just from the stacks alone.
That is absurd!
If you had her c6 the world would just implode every time it went off!
Surely they'll tone that down before release?
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
I wouldn't be surprised if it was tweaked downward, but at the same time Tartaglia can do a huge AoE Hydro hit for 650% with an additional 168% explosion per enemy
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2021
Now stack bennet + zhongli shield + superconduct and get to 15.
Inb4 10 million damage youtube video.
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Her numbers have to be high. She's a 5star physical carry. They have to make her more attractive than Razor and Xinyan. I am curious on what the cooldown and cost are gonna be on launch. It's rumored different on the beta than on the datamine so they're testing it at various values.
The fun comparison is that her physical combo is about as fast as Razor's when he's ulting, but she has more hits (at less % per, but still, more hits).
MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
Physical also just naturally has less burst damage potential, so like those numbers look extremely high but then you take into account that you can't slap a 2x multiplier on it like Hydro or Pyro can
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2021
Yes that explains why she has a potential 20x multiplier on one of her attacks. (No it doesn't)
Those big numbers from other characters are starting with 400%, doubling to 800%, not 2000%.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
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I didn't notice that. I can't imagine leveling that many characters to 90, like, ever. I've only gotten a couple fully ascended, and the only characters I'd consider taking beyond 81 are the ones that scale off HP or defense.
I did take Beidou to 90 because of bias, though.
Nine actually. I took them all to 81 first but eventually ended up leveling them all. I used Razor in floors 9 + 10, but not 11 + 12 this time.
Chars + Levels
Geared people are all the 90s and 80s, sans Noelle who I haven't gotten to yet. Though Xinyan needs to be rebuilt and Traveler could use better artifacts as well. I'm currently working on re-gearing Fishl (and gearing Beidou a little bit while I do that) while also prepping for Eula and maybe Rosaria.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I find that between the battlepass, event rewards, and daily resin stuff, I’m always pretty well-stocked in purple xp books.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
They give percentage boosts and you are guaranteed to get something that progresses, even if it just means you have to craft, you got something.
I might agree with preferring 4 pc Noblesse, but Kaeya can do a pretty substantial amount of damage with his burst and his E. I could definitely see using 2 pc of each working out pretty well. I've seem some parties that don't specifically use him to enable another character, and rather just have a lot of different attacks going out and don't really care which attack triggers reactions. In a party like that where he might be getting some Melt procs, maximizing his personal damage would make a lot of sense.
If they ever plan to release a Qiqi banner, I really hope they take some time to revise that poor zombie-girl, and dramatically so. Because if Keqing can't open up the wallets (comparatively so), what hope would Qiqi have?
While I've defended her in the past, it's increasingly apparent that she's of substantially lower power than all other 5-stars, and the most charitable (albeit reductive) description is "Cryo Jean, but worse". My intuition is that they may have started with a design that leaned into the zombie flavor and revive mechanic of her C6, but then got scared of those functions in terms of game balance and just slopped together this hodgepodge.
I think it'd be neat if they pursued something like an inverse-Hu Tao, where you were incentivized to maintain full health and leverage high Healing Bonus as an effective means to that end. At the very least, it'd be nice if she had a better 1st Ascension Talent.
Not taking damage > Healing, which leaves healers in kind of a bad spot overall
Sure. And that's partly why I believe Qiqi needs a radical redesign. But, if MiHoYo feels it necessary to just have some lesser characters (which feels extra bad when a 5-star is defined as such), I think they ought to at least pursue slight tweaks, like letting Herald of Frost clear and prevent elemental debuffs.
I mean, just think how absurd it is that her C6 is on a 15 Minute cooldown! They were absolutely terrified by how it could distort the balance of the Abyss, even knowing that almost none of their players could conceivably acquire it.
Not to mention WSG was on the same banner. It was probably the single best weapon banner since the game launched.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I doubt MHY is going to bother reworking her since she works fine as a healer. I'd love a buff sure since I have her but the only character they've really buffed so far was Zhongli and that took an epic shitstorm.
You don't need to build her as a healer at all tho. She does enough default healing without any investment you can build her for burst support without focusing on healing at all (and no maidens, ew, get that shit out of here, waste of time) and she will still heal your characters to full with ease.
And building her like that does work in end game content. And heals you.
Build: 2 pc nobless oblige. 2 pc cryo% set.
Cryo %, Attack%, Crit %, Crit Damage% etc all that. Also some energy recharge.
Don't stack attack% because you lose out on a lot of burst damage and she does not need it for healing, you want cryo%.
Sacrificial still best, since her burst is costly, but it has very high damage scaling, better than a fair few dps, which is why this build works even in end game content.
The additional "And it heals" has a very limited value in my eyes, but I think healing in general is mostly pretty inessential
I think you missed the 400% scaling burst support part.
She can do a lot of damage with her burst. Thats why it is a Burst Support. Not just for applying cryo. For killing things.
And no not every Cryo can do that because their scaling isnt high enough.
Obviously Ganny can because shes op.
She does not need maidens to top up the selfish carry.
That min max mentality? Its a trap here. You are being less efficient not more.
Sometimes hybrid is actually better. More than the sum of the parts.
I disagree that she is very good as burst support, and that video showing a Melt proc for like 30k only really helps my argument when Kaeya can do that with his elemental skill
--
Qiqi's issue is that the current perma content just rewards doing damage as fast as possible. Further, if you kill things -really- fast, you can even dodge more annoying parts of their patterns. Golems don't get time to spin if you're really disgustingly kitted out, Cicin Electro Witches don't go into their fuck everything mode, etc.
Even on a floor that does a lot of hard to avoid damage like the current 12, it's still hard to justify bringing her over shielders or healers who at least buff or have better reactions because her burst is then only an okay spike unless you really really put a lot of investment in.
The point isn't that she "needs" maiden's to function, it's that you don't bring her at all unless you want healing and her elemental application. She doesn't have her burst up often enough to build her as a burst support, and frankly it's kind of a silly effort to jump through all the prep involved to gear her up to do so. Burst supports make sense in team comps where you want to switch around your characters, not in comps where you're bringing healers to keep your carries healthy.
Nobody needs a healing optimised Qiqi. Period. Burst support is her optimal build for all roles.
Recommending a damage dealing burst Qiqi is like recommending dps Barbara. Yeah, she can get some numbers with her charge attacks if you gear her up to do so, just like you can get some numbers on Qiqi's burst. But it's a huge waste of resin to get that gear for her and it's never gonna compare to what a proper dps could be doing in the same situation, and sacrificing their purpose (healing and aura element application) to try to get mediocre damage out of them instead is just missing the point. Fast clears are never going to be based around a burst Qiqi any more than they would a dps Barbara.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
No. It's because there is no point in gearing her for healing so you might as well build her for burst support.
That's it. That is the logic. It's straight up as simple as that. Nothing you have said changes this.
With only base attack (that's level + weapon) she can keep a carry up just fine.
That means her gear (artifacts, setpiece) are all completely optional. She does not need gear to keep the carry up. If that is the case there is no reason not to make her a burst support because no matter what you are getting something more useful out of her because her healing job is already done.
If you are using her as a healer, you do not need to go hard on her to make her a burst support. You can go nice and light, good enough artifacts, even some you might have lying around. In that video I posted her burst is only level 6 and she's doing absolutely fine. The resin cost is equivalent.
You do not need a lot of investment. You need about the same investment as you would to put her in maidens. You just point that investment at burst support instead, and you get everything you want from a healer and she can be more useful to boot. This myth that you need to focus on this build hard is false. She's good enough that it isn't necessary. You can half ass her burst support build and she's still more useful than geared for healing.
I am saying nothing unusual here. It's just a fact of how the numbers and logic work out that Burst Support is the better build, for all situations, for the same cost in resin as giving her healing gear. That's just how good she is, naturally, at healing. She doesn't need any further help at healing. This is not a dps barbara situation. It's not a fringe build, at all. This is a very simple piece of logic, that is based on her utterly absurd healing potential, which is so high that focusing on it is a complete waste of time because nobody has enough hp to make it worthwhile doing so. It makes sense, and there's no reason to do anything else.
And no, you don't need to gear her for healing to heal a single character. You can just use her talisman proc for that. But it's very effective for her to be geared for Attack and maybe even healing bonus when you're using her to quickly heal your entire team at once, including someone who might be too low and dangerous to swap in.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I was responding to two assertions: 1). she must be geared for healing, and 2). she cannot scale late game.
Neither are true. 1). It doesn't make sense to make anything other than burst support, and 2). that burst support does scale into late game.
Those are pretty specific points.
You're only gonna be able to stack up to around 15 stacks. The 30 stacks is only for C6 Turbo Whales. It's still really strong though.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
That's already ridiculous!
Talent level 6 of that burst does 600% physical already without any stacks!
plus 96% per stack.
Lets say you hit 15. That's 1400% just from the stacks alone.
That is absurd!
If you had her c6 the world would just implode every time it went off!
Surely they'll tone that down before release?
Inb4 10 million damage youtube video.
The fun comparison is that her physical combo is about as fast as Razor's when he's ulting, but she has more hits (at less % per, but still, more hits).
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Those big numbers from other characters are starting with 400%, doubling to 800%, not 2000%.