The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
[US Congress] Is A Thing
Bogart
Streetwise HerculesRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
Streetwise HerculesRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
Talk about Congress, if you must.
DO:
- Talk about stuff congress is doing
- Talk about specific bills, committees, or other congressional type stuff that might be happening at the moment
- Try to give posters the benefit of the doubt and assume good faith of people you disagree with
- Use the report button if you think someone is being a problem
DON'T:
- Talk about stuff only vaguely related to congress
- Get too into the weeds regarding discussion of future election prospects
- Engage with others in a hostile fashion
- Complain about other forumers in the thread
- Bring personal beef or gripes from other threads into this one
- Talk about violence, riots, or revolution as either the solution to, or the consequence of, congressional action or inaction
- Talk about the 1/6 coup - we have a dedicated thread for that
Remember, we have threads specifically for climate change, police brutality, the coup, the economy, and a host of other topics. If you want to talk about one of these subjects in an in depth fashion and there's not a bill active in congress right now, one of these threads might be a better fit.
The forum policy on encouraging law-breaking or talking about how you want a violent revolution is not suspended because you think it's morally correct. Go do that someplace else.
DO:
- Talk about stuff congress is doing
- Talk about specific bills, committees, or other congressional type stuff that might be happening at the moment
- Try to give posters the benefit of the doubt and assume good faith of people you disagree with
- Use the report button if you think someone is being a problem
DON'T:
- Talk about stuff only vaguely related to congress
- Get too into the weeds regarding discussion of future election prospects
- Engage with others in a hostile fashion
- Complain about other forumers in the thread
- Bring personal beef or gripes from other threads into this one
- Talk about violence, riots, or revolution as either the solution to, or the consequence of, congressional action or inaction
- Talk about the 1/6 coup - we have a dedicated thread for that
Remember, we have threads specifically for climate change, police brutality, the coup, the economy, and a host of other topics. If you want to talk about one of these subjects in an in depth fashion and there's not a bill active in congress right now, one of these threads might be a better fit.
The forum policy on encouraging law-breaking or talking about how you want a violent revolution is not suspended because you think it's morally correct. Go do that someplace else.
Bogart on
+23
Posts
MSNBC Reporter
Lol, somebody is spooked.
I guess when you hold the entire world economy hostage and say, "NYEH HEH HEH, you'd have to end the filibuster to free the hostage!" and then the president begins seriously talking about ending the filibuster, you backpedal some.
Oh you just want to kick the can down the road because you realize you will lose the filibuster for this and soon other things?
Yeah get fucked McConnell.
Meanwhile, I don't trust McConnell to stick by anything he promises anyway. But it's at least nice to see him backpedal a bit.
Yeah, I super hope no one takes him up on it. I assume its more there to give Manchin and Sinema more space to obstruct things from inside. Suddenly its not "we have to do something or it all falls apart".
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
And the filibuster is on shaky ground too.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Ehh. Not constitutionally. The Senate gets to decide its own rules.
That said, opting in to a rule that almost entirely benefits Republicans just for some "fair play" cred is stupid as shit, because the Republicans under McConnell have consistently destroyed rules when doing so hurts Democrats and benefits themselves.
Fair play is a myth, there is only power and the exercising of it now.
I'd argue the way the filibuster is being implemented could be considered on shaky grounds. It's very "technically the rules don't say you can't do that"
Basically evergreen.
This is also true for some Dems, but to a far lesser degree.
Technically there's an October Recess scheduled from the 11th-17th, so there are only 4 Legislative Days available to fix this without having to do yet more procedural stuff. Cloture takes time, and Reconciliation takes a lot more time. Even if you assume that it's an extra Reconciliation Bill that doesn't count against using another one (which seems like given the Parliamentarian's previous interpretation) it's running up against the deadline to actually do it and not just Default by accident.
I guess, just the reverence everyone shows the filibuster rule is bullshit. People treat it like a longstanding enshrined rule, and its not. We need stronger leftwing media able to point that out loud enough to get through to at least Dem voters, so they start questioning/putting weight on it.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
The filibuster is all inside baseball anyway. The only people that really care about keeping it around are either ultra conservative or Beltway insiders.
You could pass a "reconcilliation" bill by just giving Dems cloture and allowing them to take the bill through with only 51 votes w/o grandstanding.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
The "reverence" argument is an excuse to avoid stating the real reason- "I'll be forced to go on record and be accountable to my voters."
In some ways the dam is already broken- the Dem majority leader in the Senate, the Speaker of the House, and even the POTUS (with caveats) are in favor of ending it. Every Dem Senate candidate going forward will need to go on record- one way or the other- with ending the filibuster.
No, you can't. Reconciliation has prescribed steps and certain amounts of committee work and debate required. You could theoretically override that with Unanimous Consent, but if Unanimous Consent to pay our bills existed Democrats wouldn't have to go through those hoops in the first place.
And what McConnell is trying to do here is head off:
1) a full filibuster repeal
2) a full debt ceiling repeal
Please Dems, find your teeth.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
Oh my god, I hate him so much.
The Legislative Filibuster won't last this decade. It's just a question of when it dies and by who's hand.
The Senate also has institutionalists. And they are as infuriatingly stupid as you'd think.
You see the same thing with the federal courts.
I swear to God, the filibuster is McConnell's phylactery. I'm not even joking, his position as the head of the party in the Senate is contingent on his ability and willingness to act as a shield/ lightning rod protecting more vulnerable Senators. He's not actually adroit at wrangling his caucus. Without the filibuster, McConnell usefulness as majority leader quickly diminishes.
It also means his biggest and virtually only tool to win back the Senate is gone. McConnell's entire strategy is to let the Democrats accomplish nothing and then run on the Democrats not doing anything for you and vote for us instead.
In particular, keeping them from overhauling voting rights.
Time to go email him and give him a pat on the head.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
It was a debt ceiling specific carve out today.
Are Democrats willing to change the filibuster to raise the debt ceiling?
So it is being discussed.
Republicans that care more about winning even if it destroys the nation and the economy are clearly at odds with the corporate class here. The filibuster not being applicable to the debt ceiling means that the corporate class no longer has to worry about shithead republicans constantly threatening to blow up the economy and their bottom line, every time it needs to come up for a vote. If the corporate class gives those two senators marching orders to kill that nonsense, well democrats will have their majority to make that no longer a thing. It's too the democrats benefit to also not have the US default on it's debt while they control all three elected levers of the federal government. The GOP is the only group that loses out here.
Like yes, the corporate class wants to stymie the democratic agenda when it interferes with their whims, but their interests and democratic interests are the same in regards to the filibuster. Neither they, nor the democrats want the US to default on it's bills and to end up fucking the economy. So a carve out for the debt ceiling means the economy stays intact, while they get to use Manchin and Sinema as pawns against democratic goals that they don't like and given how they've become less thrilled with the republicans, they are probably only all to happy to fuck the GOP here. Again, the corporate class wants to pull certain things down, they just don't want a US default, nor the US government to collapse because that's bad for their bottom line and this is where you're starting to see them and the GOP being at serious odds. The Trumpians that now control the GOP are quite happy to gain rule over a pile of ashes because they care more about power than anything else and they've hinted that they are quite willing to fuck the corporate class over for their goals.
I'd be kind of shocked if this led to a full filibuster reform because again that means the corporate class loses a ton of their tools to fuck with the parts of the democratic agenda they don't like. Now maybe there is some bullshit rule I missed with the debt ceiling or some fuck up aspect of it, that means a full filibuster reform is needed to disarm the harm that can be done by taking it hostage. Thing is, once it's gone, some of the less batshit crazy republicans, and keep in mind these are still really shitty people, might be more inclined to cross the party line on a number of votes. When filibuster means that a bill is failing by 10 votes because you now need 60 votes instead of 50, it's much easier to get people to lock into the party line, since they now have some sort of cover. You make it be actually one or two votes and you know actual come up for a vote and suddenly someone that has to make some attempt to appease their voters, isn't going to help nuke something their voters really want and happens to be something they kind of want as well.
I mean other thing is possible, that this has been such a lucrative hostage for the GOP. That McConnell believes he'll be constantly having to fight to keep his spot if the GOP can no longer use it. Also possible he sees how that accelerates the death of the filibuster, which is actually a bad proposition for the GOP. The GOP agenda is broadly unpopular and the filibuster has allowed the GOP to have both their cake and it. if it goes they either have to start voting against parts of their agenda because they only picked it for conveniently picking up the rubes as a talking point or they have to vote for it and then reap the public backlash. Democrats killing it for the debt ceiling means that future republicans will clamor even harder to kill it when their pet issues gets blocked by it and they control both branches of Congress and the white house.
The idea that 41 senators can threaten to destroy the economy in defiance of the other 59 is complete madness.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
He doesn't have to wrangle his caucus. He's spent the past 12 years teaching them to vote no on everything.
50+1
At any time for any reason
50+1
And no, you vote as normal, when someone tries to filibuster you just go "nah" and continue, which requires 50+1