So far I'm progressing in SMTV much slower than I think I would have if this game were move like IV/A, I think it's the general feeling of aimlessness to it because of the way they structured the open world. Still like it and will finish it for sure but I'm not quite as enthusiastic about it as I was about IV/A.
A few levels away from being able to fuse Alice and Idun though, so Team Girl Squad will soon be a go. (Why couldn't they let Nahobino be a female choice too? Not like baseline SMT ever has romance options to complicate things anyway, just drop in a second model)
Idun breaks the game , golden apple is amazing . Good heal and luster candy in one spell is just super good.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I actually ended up switching over to Demeter later.
Getting the overheal without needing 2 turns seemed huge. And if you have the skill to make buffs last longer you can just use regular luster candy feel pretty good for a few turns just mega healing when needed without the buff portion being wasted.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2022
All the changes made to the skills feel like the best thing about V. They came up with a whole bunch of new ways to break the game, but there's also a lot of things to take into consideration as well, like how fast buffs wear off, and all the ways to pierce through defenses.
It's true that SMTV only has two "proper" dungeons, but the overworld sections really felt like dungeons in and of themselves to me (with side paths, minibosses at regular intervals, treasure chests, and so on). From what I hear, the director of this game was one of the leads for the Etrian Odyssey series, which really shows in the feel of the overall flow of the game. Etrian Odyssey tends to have "home" and "the dungeon", where "the dungeon" is split into four or five floors, and likewise SMTV has "Tokyo" and "in Da'at", where Da'at is split into four major areas. So it's less that SMTV lacks dungeons and more that SMTV is all dungeon all the time.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2022
We've had some crackpot theories over the years about Nocturne, but buckle up for this one, it's a doozy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQN-VP8Ul0s&t=603s "My interpretation of Yuko Takao is that she was a total zealot. She fell for Hikawa's tricks due to her zealous beliefs, she outright stated that she felt no remorse for her actions of having annihilated all of humanity and forcing her own favorite students into the Vortex world, and to counteract Hikawa after being deceived by him, she immediately devotes herself completely to Aradia without any self-reflection for her actions despite having caused the end of the world. The reason she couldn't create a "Reason" was precisely because she was a zealot. She couldn't find her own meaning and instead used everyone around her as a crutch while presenting herself as the blameless victim for actions that she willfully chose to do. The moment she thought she could grasp at power for herself, like the Yahirono Himorogi that she took from you without earning it by her own efforts, she immediately expected her God to bestow her Reason and give her a path towards a happy ending. She's notoriously unreliable and upon her death, although she tries to suggest any path you choose is fine, she still also tries to suggest her own path with you doing her work for her after failing to fulfill it herself."
It's true that SMTV only has two "proper" dungeons, but the overworld sections really felt like dungeons in and of themselves to me (with side paths, minibosses at regular intervals, treasure chests, and so on). From what I hear, the director of this game was one of the leads for the Etrian Odyssey series, which really shows in the feel of the overall flow of the game. Etrian Odyssey tends to have "home" and "the dungeon", where "the dungeon" is split into four or five floors, and likewise SMTV has "Tokyo" and "in Da'at", where Da'at is split into four major areas. So it's less that SMTV lacks dungeons and more that SMTV is all dungeon all the time.
I can see that interpretation, and it's not so bad taken that way, but what makes me sad is the first "real" dungeon we get is a great one! I loved the architecture, puzzles, exploration, all of it, and the real world areas lack that same sense of interaction.
I feel so bad for Yuko. She gets tricked into helping the conception her goddess can’t give her a reason because she is “fictitious” in this reality and she tries to fix things but fails. Lucifer and hikawa explained the reasons why but it was still kinda confusing. Been thinking about it since I finished it but nocturne is a very apathetic and even nihilistic in some cases. Looking at the other endings they are all some flavor of miserable and even the freedom ending doesn’t matter because eventually the world will go through the conception anyway and this whole song and dance will begin again.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
I feel so bad for Yuko. She gets tricked into helping the conception her goddess can’t give her a reason because she is “fictitious” in this reality and she tries to fix things but fails. Lucifer and hikawa explained the reasons why but it was still kinda confusing. Been thinking about it since I finished it but nocturne is a very apathetic and even nihilistic in some cases. Looking at the other endings they are all some flavor of miserable and even the freedom ending doesn’t matter because eventually the world will go through the conception anyway and this whole song and dance will begin again.
The way the Lady in Black puts it, Aradia is a goddess of falsehood and fake promises that has no real power to offer her followers. Who knows how accurate that is, though. I always would've liked to have seen an Aradia/Yuko route.
I feel so bad for Yuko. She gets tricked into helping the conception her goddess can’t give her a reason because she is “fictitious” in this reality and she tries to fix things but fails. Lucifer and hikawa explained the reasons why but it was still kinda confusing. Been thinking about it since I finished it but nocturne is a very apathetic and even nihilistic in some cases. Looking at the other endings they are all some flavor of miserable and even the freedom ending doesn’t matter because eventually the world will go through the conception anyway and this whole song and dance will begin again.
The way the Lady in Black puts it, Aradia is a goddess of falsehood and fake promises that has no real power to offer her followers. Who knows how accurate that is, though. I always would've liked to have seen an Aradia/Yuko route.
Well she said she could only offer hope and then in the diet building hikawa says that beings from universes where the conception failed only hope is to then go to another world in the conception where they will be reborn/reincarnated and gain true power (actually I can’t remember if it was hikawa or devil nanny) . So she had a legitimate reason to want to aid her she just couldn’t compete with actual gods . Then again both sources of information are massive fucking liars so who knows. Interesting game world though.
Also, Yuko seems to have the whole Reason/God relation backwards. All the other characters figure out their Reason (more or less), then find a divine backer to give them the strength they need to make that Reason a reality.
Meanwhile, Yuko has no idea what she wants the new world to be like, so she's just kind of waiting around for Aradia to tell her. Which isn't how it's supposed to work.
Also, Yuko seems to have the whole Reason/God relation backwards. All the other characters figure out their Reason (more or less), then find a divine backer to give them the strength they need to make that Reason a reality.
Meanwhile, Yuko has no idea what she wants the new world to be like, so she's just kind of waiting around for Aradia to tell her. Which isn't how it's supposed to work.
It kinda makes her relatable , at least to me . Maybe it’s because she wasn’t trying to kill me as opposed to my other “friends”
I just finished SMTV. I was going to post in this thread a few days ago with some questions and criticisms but figured I might as well head on to the ending and get full context. Did two of the endings so far but wasn't intending to move forward with them, I'm more seriously leveling and questing for the third one which I intend to keep for a replay to then officially get the others too and unlock more things.
Previous experience with the series was just three-quarters of SMTIV, and I guess technically TMS#FE.
I think my problem is that I'm just too interested in the apocalypse itself, when the game wants to gloss over that completely and focuses on a really kind of minimalistic nonsensical story.
SMTIV I felt had an awesome story and setting, there was a lot of plot early on and a lot of random NPCs to flesh out the world. In some ways it felt Fallout-ish (of course without the humor, just the idea of pockets of humans scraping by). SMTV has none of that. And the pacing was way off, there's an intro that explains nothing, then 10 hours of no further story at all, then you get a dump of 4-5 hours of actual story. I guess that's not unheard of in gaming since Breath of the Wild had a similar pace at the start depending on how long it took you to find a town, but still...this is no Breath of the Wild. It really stretched me to the limit of gameplay-without-impetus, although I would say it improved a lot toward the end.
The game's lack of NPCs, or really any view of what the world looks like/common people, made the extremely impactful ending decisions and narration feel pointless. Like, without wanting to spoil too much, imagine a game where you go through dungeons and fight monsters and talk to no one the whole time. You get to the end and you can blow up the earth or save it. Well what do I care about either choice? Sure, I can imagine towns and villages and people crying out in anguish or joy, but if you haven't given me anything concrete to care about destroying or saving, what's the point?
Also I managed to make it to the end of the game without understanding what actually happened 18 years ago or the current state of the world. I hope somebody can give me their thoughts on this because I'm lost:
18 years ago an apocalypse happened. Was the entire world destroyed? Or just Japan/Tokyo? Like if I grabbed a ship in Da'at and sailed to the US, what would I find there? More desert and destroyed buildings? Are any humans left alive? I think based on the demon/Knowledge dichotomy, supposedly humans should be surviving somewhere?
Is Da'at even real, or some other strange virtual/dimensional location? There's a line said in the game referencing that "a new Da'at would be created." Is this just a horribly roundabout way of saying, if you start with a lush beautiful world it's just going to get destroyed again? And for some reason we have to refer to the apocalyptic wasteland as Da'at and not just...the ruins of earth?
So God fought Lucifer and I'll just assume their battle destroyed Tokyo. God said "oh man this is no good" and made a "fake" Tokyo (I guess created a new virtual machine on his server and pulled up a recent backup of Tokyo and restored it to the VM), and then he died. Nobody living in Tokyo knows this, they think they're living in a normal world. As far as I can tell the VM backup interpretation makes the most sense, since they'd be as real as they were before, and a restored backup from a few days before armageddon could let them keep existing in a time-shifted reality where armageddon never happened. But...does everyone just never feel the need to leave this Tokyo? Were they self-sufficient with no imports or exports for 18 years? And regardless of the reality of semi-virtual people living in this semi-virtual Tokyo, it feels like that runs counter to the themes of the people possessing real Knowledge which demons desire. If God's death means the miracle is fading, I assume that means the people are fading, which probably also means the Knowledge is fading too? I thought Knowledge was an intrinsic force to the world. If the people don't fade alongside Tokyo, where do they go? When the miracle fails, do they all just suddenly poof into Da'at, confused and terrified?
Again, are the fake humans in fake Tokyo the only humans left?
I know none of this is supposed to matter, but they're things I want to know. They're setting details that I feel for example SMTIV explained sufficiently.
Anyway. The gameplay was good and I have no problem with the balance of open world vs. dungeons etc. As others have said the open worlds were just very large dungeons themselves. The only thing I thought was really strange was the final dungeon, which was completely based around
avoiding encounters. The entire theme of the last dungeon was figuring out corridors you can duck into to avoid fights with charging enemies, or enemies that form a line you can't cross so you have to go around. This feels counter to the gameplay which is all based around how you deal with encounters...like...I can just fight these enemies and go through to the next area. But the dungeon is designed with intent for me to find a way around without fighting. Just a bizarre choice.
I just finished SMTV. I was going to post in this thread a few days ago with some questions and criticisms but figured I might as well head on to the ending and get full context. Did two of the endings so far but wasn't intending to move forward with them, I'm more seriously leveling and questing for the third one which I intend to keep for a replay to then officially get the others too and unlock more things.
Previous experience with the series was just three-quarters of SMTIV, and I guess technically TMS#FE.
I think my problem is that I'm just too interested in the apocalypse itself, when the game wants to gloss over that completely and focuses on a really kind of minimalistic nonsensical story.
SMTIV I felt had an awesome story and setting, there was a lot of plot early on and a lot of random NPCs to flesh out the world. In some ways it felt Fallout-ish (of course without the humor, just the idea of pockets of humans scraping by). SMTV has none of that. And the pacing was way off, there's an intro that explains nothing, then 10 hours of no further story at all, then you get a dump of 4-5 hours of actual story. I guess that's not unheard of in gaming since Breath of the Wild had a similar pace at the start depending on how long it took you to find a town, but still...this is no Breath of the Wild. It really stretched me to the limit of gameplay-without-impetus, although I would say it improved a lot toward the end.
The game's lack of NPCs, or really any view of what the world looks like/common people, made the extremely impactful ending decisions and narration feel pointless. Like, without wanting to spoil too much, imagine a game where you go through dungeons and fight monsters and talk to no one the whole time. You get to the end and you can blow up the earth or save it. Well what do I care about either choice? Sure, I can imagine towns and villages and people crying out in anguish or joy, but if you haven't given me anything concrete to care about destroying or saving, what's the point?
Also I managed to make it to the end of the game without understanding what actually happened 18 years ago or the current state of the world. I hope somebody can give me their thoughts on this because I'm lost:
18 years ago an apocalypse happened. Was the entire world destroyed? Or just Japan/Tokyo? Like if I grabbed a ship in Da'at and sailed to the US, what would I find there? More desert and destroyed buildings? Are any humans left alive? I think based on the demon/Knowledge dichotomy, supposedly humans should be surviving somewhere?
Is Da'at even real, or some other strange virtual/dimensional location? There's a line said in the game referencing that "a new Da'at would be created." Is this just a horribly roundabout way of saying, if you start with a lush beautiful world it's just going to get destroyed again? And for some reason we have to refer to the apocalyptic wasteland as Da'at and not just...the ruins of earth?
So God fought Lucifer and I'll just assume their battle destroyed Tokyo. God said "oh man this is no good" and made a "fake" Tokyo (I guess created a new virtual machine on his server and pulled up a recent backup of Tokyo and restored it to the VM), and then he died. Nobody living in Tokyo knows this, they think they're living in a normal world. As far as I can tell the VM backup interpretation makes the most sense, since they'd be as real as they were before, and a restored backup from a few days before armageddon could let them keep existing in a time-shifted reality where armageddon never happened. But...does everyone just never feel the need to leave this Tokyo? Were they self-sufficient with no imports or exports for 18 years? And regardless of the reality of semi-virtual people living in this semi-virtual Tokyo, it feels like that runs counter to the themes of the people possessing real Knowledge which demons desire. If God's death means the miracle is fading, I assume that means the people are fading, which probably also means the Knowledge is fading too? I thought Knowledge was an intrinsic force to the world. If the people don't fade alongside Tokyo, where do they go? When the miracle fails, do they all just suddenly poof into Da'at, confused and terrified?
Again, are the fake humans in fake Tokyo the only humans left?
I know none of this is supposed to matter, but they're things I want to know. They're setting details that I feel for example SMTIV explained sufficiently.
Anyway. The gameplay was good and I have no problem with the balance of open world vs. dungeons etc. As others have said the open worlds were just very large dungeons themselves. The only thing I thought was really strange was the final dungeon, which was completely based around
avoiding encounters. The entire theme of the last dungeon was figuring out corridors you can duck into to avoid fights with charging enemies, or enemies that form a line you can't cross so you have to go around. This feels counter to the gameplay which is all based around how you deal with encounters...like...I can just fight these enemies and go through to the next area. But the dungeon is designed with intent for me to find a way around without fighting. Just a bizarre choice.
I'm maybe halfway through the game so far, but they do outright say that the original Tokyo was invaded by demons and dragged into Da'at some decades ago and everyone in it was killed when it became a battlefield, and God "the Creator" made a replacement Tokyo and its inhabitants in the real world so no one was ever the wiser outside of specific Order-aligned groups like Bethel. The rest of the world is seemingly fine, and they have been mentioning other global branches of Bethel in passing fairly often.
I feel like I remember someone mentioning "the more time you spend in Da'at/around demons, the more demonic you become." So if Da'at is the real world, wouldn't any humans left living there gradually become demonic? And in fact, if they all already possess Knowledge, wouldn't they all be slowly turning into Nahobino?
I'm maybe halfway through the game so far, but they do outright say that the original Tokyo was invaded by demons and dragged into Da'at some decades ago and everyone in it was killed when it became a battlefield, and God "the Creator" made a replacement Tokyo and its inhabitants in the real world so no one was ever the wiser outside of specific Order-aligned groups like Bethel. The rest of the world is seemingly fine, and they have been mentioning other global branches of Bethel in passing fairly often.
I think this is something you might get a different perspective on as you get closer to the end of the game. This is a spoiler for I think post-third open world area, regarding Tokyo:
Tokyo is definitely in its own virtual bubble and begins falling apart. You see it dematerializing in a digital sense like Tron or the Matrix or something, and people start forgetting about parts of the city (just from one specific conversation with a guy in town that's easy to miss). It's not in the real world, because it's falling apart into nothingness, it's not like Da'at is gradually being revealed underneath it, it's just...white.
Further thoughts about the SMTV Chaos ending and how I really don't think the writers thought through the consequences.
To review:
Law - uphold God's order, maintain things the way he established them, people worship one God
Chaos - reject God's order, leading to the age of the rule of the myriad gods, who will squabble and vie for power in their own ways, but groups of gods will presumably watch over their chosen territories e.g. Japan
Neutral - destroy the throne, meaning no demon will be able to rewrite creation again, and humans can move forward with no otherworldly powers dominating them
Others online have described these as less about law/chaos/neutrality and instead monotheism/polytheism/atheism, with various pros and cons to each approach.
But remember the other component to God's order: the Condemnation, which separated all demons from their Knowledge and made it so that no demon could ever be powerful enough to challenge God's rule. No other Nahobinos could exist, but now we know that they can. And their Knowledge is tucked away inside humans.
So when existence is rewritten at the throne, what exactly does rejecting God's order mean? Part of the whole point of choosing this ending is to revert things to the way they were before the one God, which I would assume means stripping the Knowledge from every human and returning it to the demons, right? Or at the very least, doing nothing to impede the process of demons regaining their Knowledge.
Because the whole point of there being myriad gods powerful enough to defend their territories and perform miracles relies on them being restored to their godlike status, which means reuniting with their Knowledge. You're lifting the Condemnation and saying "everybody gets to be a Nahobino again."
So what does a human look like, stripped of their Knowledge? In a biblical sense, it was intended to be the knowledge of good and evil, the idea that without Knowledge you are innocent and pure and cannot sin because you don't know the difference. Like an animal, acting on instinct. You don't know that killing is wrong, you don't think twice and just do it for the sake of self-preservation, or because that guy was being annoying. I don't know if SMTV intends Knowledge to have this much importance, but it has to mean something, surely humanity would feel the loss in some way.
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
Further thoughts about the SMTV Chaos ending and how I really don't think the writers thought through the consequences.
To review:
Law - uphold God's order, maintain things the way he established them, people worship one God
Chaos - reject God's order, leading to the age of the rule of the myriad gods, who will squabble and vie for power in their own ways, but groups of gods will presumably watch over their chosen territories e.g. Japan
Neutral - destroy the throne, meaning no demon will be able to rewrite creation again, and humans can move forward with no otherworldly powers dominating them
Others online have described these as less about law/chaos/neutrality and instead monotheism/polytheism/atheism, with various pros and cons to each approach.
But remember the other component to God's order: the Condemnation, which separated all demons from their Knowledge and made it so that no demon could ever be powerful enough to challenge God's rule. No other Nahobinos could exist, but now we know that they can. And their Knowledge is tucked away inside humans.
So when existence is rewritten at the throne, what exactly does rejecting God's order mean? Part of the whole point of choosing this ending is to revert things to the way they were before the one God, which I would assume means stripping the Knowledge from every human and returning it to the demons, right? Or at the very least, doing nothing to impede the process of demons regaining their Knowledge.
Because the whole point of there being myriad gods powerful enough to defend their territories and perform miracles relies on them being restored to their godlike status, which means reuniting with their Knowledge. You're lifting the Condemnation and saying "everybody gets to be a Nahobino again."
So what does a human look like, stripped of their Knowledge? In a biblical sense, it was intended to be the knowledge of good and evil, the idea that without Knowledge you are innocent and pure and cannot sin because you don't know the difference. Like an animal, acting on instinct. You don't know that killing is wrong, you don't think twice and just do it for the sake of self-preservation, or because that guy was being annoying. I don't know if SMTV intends Knowledge to have this much importance, but it has to mean something, surely humanity would feel the loss in some way.
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
Well the split knowledge was done under God's order. When remaking the world you have the power to allow the knowledge to be with everyone. Prior to YHVH's rule there already WAS a full pantheon of gods and humans(or whatever their followers were at the time just assumed to human because that's easiest to imagine) all existing together. It hasn't always been the way it was under YHVH's rule. This whole thing was under his plan.
Not how it always is.
Further thoughts about the SMTV Chaos ending and how I really don't think the writers thought through the consequences.
To review:
Law - uphold God's order, maintain things the way he established them, people worship one God
Chaos - reject God's order, leading to the age of the rule of the myriad gods, who will squabble and vie for power in their own ways, but groups of gods will presumably watch over their chosen territories e.g. Japan
Neutral - destroy the throne, meaning no demon will be able to rewrite creation again, and humans can move forward with no otherworldly powers dominating them
Others online have described these as less about law/chaos/neutrality and instead monotheism/polytheism/atheism, with various pros and cons to each approach.
But remember the other component to God's order: the Condemnation, which separated all demons from their Knowledge and made it so that no demon could ever be powerful enough to challenge God's rule. No other Nahobinos could exist, but now we know that they can. And their Knowledge is tucked away inside humans.
So when existence is rewritten at the throne, what exactly does rejecting God's order mean? Part of the whole point of choosing this ending is to revert things to the way they were before the one God, which I would assume means stripping the Knowledge from every human and returning it to the demons, right? Or at the very least, doing nothing to impede the process of demons regaining their Knowledge.
Because the whole point of there being myriad gods powerful enough to defend their territories and perform miracles relies on them being restored to their godlike status, which means reuniting with their Knowledge. You're lifting the Condemnation and saying "everybody gets to be a Nahobino again."
So what does a human look like, stripped of their Knowledge? In a biblical sense, it was intended to be the knowledge of good and evil, the idea that without Knowledge you are innocent and pure and cannot sin because you don't know the difference. Like an animal, acting on instinct. You don't know that killing is wrong, you don't think twice and just do it for the sake of self-preservation, or because that guy was being annoying. I don't know if SMTV intends Knowledge to have this much importance, but it has to mean something, surely humanity would feel the loss in some way.
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
Well the split knowledge was done under God's order. When remaking the world you have the power to allow the knowledge to be with everyone. Prior to YHVH's rule there already WAS a full pantheon of gods and humans(or whatever their followers were at the time just assumed to human because that's easiest to imagine) all existing together. It hasn't always been the way it was under YHVH's rule. This whole thing was under his plan.
Not how it always is.
I thought it was said or implied that humanity gained Knowledge at whatever the SMTV equivalent of the garden of eden was, when the first humans ate fruit from the tree, resulting in all humans inheriting that Knowledge.
I thought the opening cutscenes basically stated that YHVH created humans and the snake wanted to cause mayhem so he gave them Knowledge to spoil YHVH's people and make them a target for demons wanting to regain their divinity.
There seems to be some sort of cosmic law of conservation of mass, rules that even gods have to operate under. YHVH couldn't just destroy Knowledge, he had to siphon it away and put it in something. Presumably, you don't get to simply say "now double the Knowledge exists, humans have it AND demons have it and everyone's happy!" By the end of the game, it's still inside humans. So either it's removed from humans to grant the myriad gods the divinity they need (a big part of rejecting YHVH's order), or you're shrugging and expecting things to work themselves out, which means humans are now targets for every demon seeking to regain divinity.
Further thoughts about the SMTV Chaos ending and how I really don't think the writers thought through the consequences.
To review:
Law - uphold God's order, maintain things the way he established them, people worship one God
Chaos - reject God's order, leading to the age of the rule of the myriad gods, who will squabble and vie for power in their own ways, but groups of gods will presumably watch over their chosen territories e.g. Japan
Neutral - destroy the throne, meaning no demon will be able to rewrite creation again, and humans can move forward with no otherworldly powers dominating them
Others online have described these as less about law/chaos/neutrality and instead monotheism/polytheism/atheism, with various pros and cons to each approach.
But remember the other component to God's order: the Condemnation, which separated all demons from their Knowledge and made it so that no demon could ever be powerful enough to challenge God's rule. No other Nahobinos could exist, but now we know that they can. And their Knowledge is tucked away inside humans.
So when existence is rewritten at the throne, what exactly does rejecting God's order mean? Part of the whole point of choosing this ending is to revert things to the way they were before the one God, which I would assume means stripping the Knowledge from every human and returning it to the demons, right? Or at the very least, doing nothing to impede the process of demons regaining their Knowledge.
Because the whole point of there being myriad gods powerful enough to defend their territories and perform miracles relies on them being restored to their godlike status, which means reuniting with their Knowledge. You're lifting the Condemnation and saying "everybody gets to be a Nahobino again."
So what does a human look like, stripped of their Knowledge? In a biblical sense, it was intended to be the knowledge of good and evil, the idea that without Knowledge you are innocent and pure and cannot sin because you don't know the difference. Like an animal, acting on instinct. You don't know that killing is wrong, you don't think twice and just do it for the sake of self-preservation, or because that guy was being annoying. I don't know if SMTV intends Knowledge to have this much importance, but it has to mean something, surely humanity would feel the loss in some way.
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
Well the split knowledge was done under God's order. When remaking the world you have the power to allow the knowledge to be with everyone. Prior to YHVH's rule there already WAS a full pantheon of gods and humans(or whatever their followers were at the time just assumed to human because that's easiest to imagine) all existing together. It hasn't always been the way it was under YHVH's rule. This whole thing was under his plan.
Not how it always is.
I thought it was said or implied that humanity gained Knowledge at whatever the SMTV equivalent of the garden of eden was, when the first humans ate fruit from the tree, resulting in all humans inheriting that Knowledge.
I thought the opening cutscenes basically stated that YHVH created humans and the snake wanted to cause mayhem so he gave them Knowledge to spoil YHVH's people and make them a target for demons wanting to regain their divinity.
There seems to be some sort of cosmic law of conservation of mass, rules that even gods have to operate under. YHVH couldn't just destroy Knowledge, he had to siphon it away and put it in something. Presumably, you don't get to simply say "now double the Knowledge exists, humans have it AND demons have it and everyone's happy!" By the end of the game, it's still inside humans. So either it's removed from humans to grant the myriad gods the divinity they need (a big part of rejecting YHVH's order), or you're shrugging and expecting things to work themselves out, which means humans are now targets for every demon seeking to regain divinity.
All of that was just at the start of YHVH's cycle in power. Prior to YHVH Baal was the one sitting on the throne for who knows how long. During this time the gods had knowledge and there were still followers of gods.
And before Baal another god and for who knows how many cycles before that. Everything involved in this game is just this one particular cycle where YHVH decided to find a way to give themselves the power.
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Andy JoeWe claim the land for the highlord!The AdirondacksRegistered Userregular
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
I expect the reigning gods of each pantheon would limit who is allowed to become a Nahobino to themselves and their closest allies, and to stamp out lower-ranking gods and demons (local or foreign) that would try to obtain Knowledge for themselves and/or kill humans.
Besides, obtaining Knowledge is more useful for the ability to use the throne than the boost in combat power it gives you. Any demon that just wants to be a tough guy in his own little fiefdom instead of going for it all will think twice about drawing unneeded attention and looking more dangerous and ambitions than they actually are.
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
I expect the reigning gods of each pantheon would limit who is allowed to become a Nahobino to themselves and their closest allies, and to stamp out lower-ranking gods and demons (local or foreign) that would try to obtain Knowledge for themselves and/or kill humans.
Besides, obtaining Knowledge is more useful for the ability to use the throne than the boost in combat power it gives you. Any demon that just wants to be a tough guy in his own little fiefdom instead of going for it all will think twice about drawing unneeded attention and looking more dangerous and ambitions than they actually are.
Keep in mind that there is also motivation for humans to seek to merge with demons also to become Nahobino. By the end of the game this could still be considered a secret that humanity is oblivious about, but if anyone ever learned that they could gain eternal life as well as sweet-ass demonic powers, you would see people seeking to merge with their Knowledge demon too. They have more to gain than the demons have to lose.
Assuming the truth ever got out, that's a lot of entities vying to ascend.
Also I naturally assumed that the Chaos ending as envisioned by Koshimizu wouldn't be one of hypocrisy. The demons hate what God did, separating them from their Knowledge. You wouldn't expect the ideal world to be one which STILL has that issue, but simply one layer removed, as now there's a pantheon jealously keeping others from gaining Knowledge instead of just one guy doing it. I understand that could very well be the case, but I don't see it as what Koshimizu or the protagonist would want.
DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
edited January 2022
Also I now know your reddit account haha. We seem to frequent a lot of the same haunts.
But on the topic..
The game leaves a lot of the smaller details open. It's not quite so cut and dry and no real reason to assume too hard on how the details work. Again there have been many cycles of this. This is the only one where it became a game of hiding knowledge. So don't put too much of a premium on the requirements of how knowledge is spread out.
And also absolutely many of the gods in the Chaos path will do all sorts of terrible shit. That's kinda the idea.
There will be shitty ones, There will be good ones. And it will be humans decisions who they follow and don't follow based on that. It's giving full on choice to everyone, gods and humans, to do what they want. For better or worse. But it's their choice.
At the end of the day that's the one I went with because it's basically the same as the neutral path in that way.
We already know that a world without gods is just ruled by humans who will do the most horrible things to each other. Both good and evil still exist. That doesn't change with or without the gods. So at least in the Chaos path my character has the powers of a god to do their best to protect and work for those that deserve it. Unlike in the regular world where they would be powerless to do anything but sit back and watch.
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
I expect the reigning gods of each pantheon would limit who is allowed to become a Nahobino to themselves and their closest allies, and to stamp out lower-ranking gods and demons (local or foreign) that would try to obtain Knowledge for themselves and/or kill humans.
Besides, obtaining Knowledge is more useful for the ability to use the throne than the boost in combat power it gives you. Any demon that just wants to be a tough guy in his own little fiefdom instead of going for it all will think twice about drawing unneeded attention and looking more dangerous and ambitions than they actually are.
Keep in mind that there is also motivation for humans to seek to merge with demons also to become Nahobino. By the end of the game this could still be considered a secret that humanity is oblivious about, but if anyone ever learned that they could gain eternal life as well as sweet-ass demonic powers, you would see people seeking to merge with their Knowledge demon too. They have more to gain than the demons have to lose.
Well gee Sora, does this mean that if Xemnas and Ansem get back together they can form one of them Nuh... Ne... Nabinos you were talkin' about?
This is my headcanon on Knowledge, basically entirely separate from in-game evidence:
Though they refer to it as "the Knowledge of Good and Evil", what Knowledge really feels like to me is, to coin a phrase, "the power of conceptualization". To possess Knowledge is to possess the power to change the nature of a thing, to draw boundaries between it and other things. Think of "good and evil" as less moral imperatives and more "what is pleasing to me and like me, and what is displeasing to me and unlike me".
On the other side of the human/demon split is Life, which I interpret as "the power of existence". Demons cannot be truly and permanently destroyed because after the Condemnation, they still possess Life, which grants them an eternal existence (unlike mortals).
Because mortals possess Knowledge, they are capable of changing the essence of a demon; as everyone's collective impression of Thor, or the Pixie, or Baphomet, changes, so to does the demon itself.
A Nahobino, possessing both Life and Knowledge, possesses both attributes, being able to determine their own form, and the spiritual force of will to realize that imagined form. And, with the power of the Throne, to impose their image of the world on everyone else.
Kupi on
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
Also I now know your reddit account haha. We seem to frequent a lot of the same haunts.
Yeah it's not a secret or anything, I cross posted it because I'm interested what people think. :P
I was wondering if that was coincidence. I’m doing a hard run in smtv , it is pretty miserable so far but I can see it getting easier once I get some decent demons.
After finishing SMT5 a few times I got the SMT3 Nocturne remaster.
In the wider culture, why does everyone insist on calling it by its full name or Nocturne? I see it shortened to SMT3N even. As far as I can tell there is no regular SMT3 that it would be a spinoff of, like SMT4A which does deserve its acronym, so I don't get why everyone doesn't just call it SMT3.
Anyway it's pretty great. This is maybe a weird thing to like about it, but I like how it feels like an old first person dungeon crawler, just with a 3D guy running around in view of the camera. If you ignore your character, it's basically a classic dungeon crawler. The camera locks to orthogonal angles and all the dungeons were designed in squares for it to do so. It almost feels like they designed the game to be a first person dungeon crawler but partway through development said "nobody will buy a game this old school, put a little character in there running around!"
After finishing SMT5 a few times I got the SMT3 Nocturne remaster.
In the wider culture, why does everyone insist on calling it by its full name or Nocturne? I see it shortened to SMT3N even. As far as I can tell there is no regular SMT3 that it would be a spinoff of, like SMT4A which does deserve its acronym, so I don't get why everyone doesn't just call it SMT3.
Anyway it's pretty great. This is maybe a weird thing to like about it, but I like how it feels like an old first person dungeon crawler, just with a 3D guy running around in view of the camera. If you ignore your character, it's basically a classic dungeon crawler. The camera locks to orthogonal angles and all the dungeons were designed in squares for it to do so. It almost feels like they designed the game to be a first person dungeon crawler but partway through development said "nobody will buy a game this old school, put a little character in there running around!"
You can even play it that way once you finish it. It's really weird how much V wants to be a sequel to Nocturne, but doesn't understand anything about what made it so great.
After finishing SMT5 a few times I got the SMT3 Nocturne remaster.
In the wider culture, why does everyone insist on calling it by its full name or Nocturne? I see it shortened to SMT3N even. As far as I can tell there is no regular SMT3 that it would be a spinoff of, like SMT4A which does deserve its acronym, so I don't get why everyone doesn't just call it SMT3.
Anyway it's pretty great. This is maybe a weird thing to like about it, but I like how it feels like an old first person dungeon crawler, just with a 3D guy running around in view of the camera. If you ignore your character, it's basically a classic dungeon crawler. The camera locks to orthogonal angles and all the dungeons were designed in squares for it to do so. It almost feels like they designed the game to be a first person dungeon crawler but partway through development said "nobody will buy a game this old school, put a little character in there running around!"
Oh yeah I meant to mention I beat the Matador on my first try.
But I cheated. I knew what element he used so I was able to have a team ready to resist it. And to compare myself to the longstanding narrative of the brick wall he poses, there's just the fact that at the time on PS2 SMT was new to the west and people didn't know how to dance on the game's terms. I have a few under my belt so I know to buff and debuff.
I beat SMTV yesterday, then I went back to beat the (non-DLC) bonus boss. I'm at a good break point, so I'm ready to give my thoughts.
At first I was shocked that they actually went out and killed YHVH, but the more I thought about it, I don't think that The Creator is the same as YHVH. I don't think of YHVH would have other gods that exist before it, and the way Knowledge works doesn't seem to match with other universes. I'm of the opinion that it's an a parallel universe, similar to SMT: Nocturne.
How did I like it? Pretty good, but I liked SMT:N better. It was lacking ... civilization. I wish there were more places like the Faerie Village, places where you can peacefully interact with demons to prove that they're not inherently bad. Plus, I like using interacting with fictional society for worldbuilding. I don't mind the limited dungeons and the open worlds were fun, but they ran too long.
The bonus boss wasn't too bad. I beat him with my first try, not counting when I was level 80 and wanted to see what the battle was like. Despite that, I was level 99 and had a dozen demons of the same level, so I'm embarrassed that it came as close as it did. I should have figured out the "Kill all but one of the summoned enemies" trick faster.
Have you ever given a thought about how you would recreate the world yourself if you weren't bound by the three alignments and the technical limits of game design? Since it was established demons have a corresponding human with their Knowledge, I would start by having all demons and their humans meet, where they can decide if they wish to merge, hang out together, or keep their distance. I see a layered world, possibly by ditching the whole "the world is round thing." Huge cities for people who prefer structure and society, vast plains for more wandering and nomadic people and demons, dark caverns for demons, undead, and well, goths, floating continents, people and angels living on clouds, whole nine yards yay.
You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
I see a layered world, possibly by ditching the whole "the world is round thing." Huge cities for people who prefer structure and society, vast plains for more wandering and nomadic people and demons, dark caverns for demons, undead, and well, goths, floating continents, people and angels living on clouds, whole nine yards yay.
I beat SMTV yesterday, then I went back to beat the (non-DLC) bonus boss. I'm at a good break point, so I'm ready to give my thoughts.
At first I was shocked that they actually went out and killed YHVH, but the more I thought about it, I don't think that The Creator is the same as YHVH. I don't think of YHVH would have other gods that exist before it, and the way Knowledge works doesn't seem to match with other universes. I'm of the opinion that it's an a parallel universe, similar to SMT: Nocturne.
How did I like it? Pretty good, but I liked SMT:N better. It was lacking ... civilization. I wish there were more places like the Faerie Village, places where you can peacefully interact with demons to prove that they're not inherently bad. Plus, I like using interacting with fictional society for worldbuilding. I don't mind the limited dungeons and the open worlds were fun, but they ran too long.
The bonus boss wasn't too bad. I beat him with my first try, not counting when I was level 80 and wanted to see what the battle was like. Despite that, I was level 99 and had a dozen demons of the same level, so I'm embarrassed that it came as close as it did. I should have figured out the "Kill all but one of the summoned enemies" trick faster.
Have you ever given a thought about how you would recreate the world yourself if you weren't bound by the three alignments and the technical limits of game design? Since it was established demons have a corresponding human with their Knowledge, I would start by having all demons and their humans meet, where they can decide if they wish to merge, hang out together, or keep their distance. I see a layered world, possibly by ditching the whole "the world is round thing." Huge cities for people who prefer structure and society, vast plains for more wandering and nomadic people and demons, dark caverns for demons, undead, and well, goths, floating continents, people and angels living on clouds, whole nine yards yay.
I mostly agree. Especially about story and characterization/people to talk to. I do think the few dungeons are pretty bad compared to the ones in SMT3 though.
I beat SMTV yesterday, then I went back to beat the (non-DLC) bonus boss. I'm at a good break point, so I'm ready to give my thoughts.
At first I was shocked that they actually went out and killed YHVH, but the more I thought about it, I don't think that The Creator is the same as YHVH. I don't think of YHVH would have other gods that exist before it, and the way Knowledge works doesn't seem to match with other universes. I'm of the opinion that it's an a parallel universe, similar to SMT: Nocturne.
How did I like it? Pretty good, but I liked SMT:N better. It was lacking ... civilization. I wish there were more places like the Faerie Village, places where you can peacefully interact with demons to prove that they're not inherently bad. Plus, I like using interacting with fictional society for worldbuilding. I don't mind the limited dungeons and the open worlds were fun, but they ran too long.
The bonus boss wasn't too bad. I beat him with my first try, not counting when I was level 80 and wanted to see what the battle was like. Despite that, I was level 99 and had a dozen demons of the same level, so I'm embarrassed that it came as close as it did. I should have figured out the "Kill all but one of the summoned enemies" trick faster.
Have you ever given a thought about how you would recreate the world yourself if you weren't bound by the three alignments and the technical limits of game design? Since it was established demons have a corresponding human with their Knowledge, I would start by having all demons and their humans meet, where they can decide if they wish to merge, hang out together, or keep their distance. I see a layered world, possibly by ditching the whole "the world is round thing." Huge cities for people who prefer structure and society, vast plains for more wandering and nomadic people and demons, dark caverns for demons, undead, and well, goths, floating continents, people and angels living on clouds, whole nine yards yay.
I mostly agree. Especially about story and characterization/people to talk to. I do think the few dungeons are pretty bad compared to the ones in SMT3 though.
It's a massive step up over the ones in IV, which apart from Lucifer's Palace, are mostly tunnels and warps with minimal verticality. There's a formula for some amazing dungeons in V, and I hope they build on it in the future.
To be clear, IV blows V away in terms of quantity, but the one(!?) dungeon we get in V was a lot more like what I enjoy in an SMT game, and felt like a Nocturne dungeon. IV's are more like the I/II/SJ formula.
It's a massive step up over the ones in IV, which apart from Lucifer's Palace, are mostly tunnels and warps with minimal verticality. There's a formula for some amazing dungeons in V, and I hope they build on it in the future.
To be clear, IV blows V away in terms of quantity, but the one(!?) dungeon we get in V was a lot more like what I enjoy in an SMT game, and felt like a Nocturne dungeon. IV's are more like the I/II/SJ formula.
I would categorize the school and the final areas as dungeons too, just bad ones.
It's a massive step up over the ones in IV, which apart from Lucifer's Palace, are mostly tunnels and warps with minimal verticality. There's a formula for some amazing dungeons in V, and I hope they build on it in the future.
To be clear, IV blows V away in terms of quantity, but the one(!?) dungeon we get in V was a lot more like what I enjoy in an SMT game, and felt like a Nocturne dungeon. IV's are more like the I/II/SJ formula.
I would categorize the school and the final areas as dungeons too, just bad ones.
Never even crossed my mind to categorize them that way.
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A few levels away from being able to fuse Alice and Idun though, so Team Girl Squad will soon be a go. (Why couldn't they let Nahobino be a female choice too? Not like baseline SMT ever has romance options to complicate things anyway, just drop in a second model)
Getting the overheal without needing 2 turns seemed huge. And if you have the skill to make buffs last longer you can just use regular luster candy feel pretty good for a few turns just mega healing when needed without the buff portion being wasted.
"My interpretation of Yuko Takao is that she was a total zealot. She fell for Hikawa's tricks due to her zealous beliefs, she outright stated that she felt no remorse for her actions of having annihilated all of humanity and forcing her own favorite students into the Vortex world, and to counteract Hikawa after being deceived by him, she immediately devotes herself completely to Aradia without any self-reflection for her actions despite having caused the end of the world. The reason she couldn't create a "Reason" was precisely because she was a zealot. She couldn't find her own meaning and instead used everyone around her as a crutch while presenting herself as the blameless victim for actions that she willfully chose to do. The moment she thought she could grasp at power for herself, like the Yahirono Himorogi that she took from you without earning it by her own efforts, she immediately expected her God to bestow her Reason and give her a path towards a happy ending. She's notoriously unreliable and upon her death, although she tries to suggest any path you choose is fine, she still also tries to suggest her own path with you doing her work for her after failing to fulfill it herself."
I can see that interpretation, and it's not so bad taken that way, but what makes me sad is the first "real" dungeon we get is a great one! I loved the architecture, puzzles, exploration, all of it, and the real world areas lack that same sense of interaction.
I wrote up a full spiel here:
https://iwakuraproductions.wordpress.com/2022/01/17/post-mortem-shin-megami-tensei-v/
The way the Lady in Black puts it, Aradia is a goddess of falsehood and fake promises that has no real power to offer her followers. Who knows how accurate that is, though. I always would've liked to have seen an Aradia/Yuko route.
Well she said she could only offer hope and then in the diet building hikawa says that beings from universes where the conception failed only hope is to then go to another world in the conception where they will be reborn/reincarnated and gain true power (actually I can’t remember if it was hikawa or devil nanny) . So she had a legitimate reason to want to aid her she just couldn’t compete with actual gods . Then again both sources of information are massive fucking liars so who knows. Interesting game world though.
Meanwhile, Yuko has no idea what she wants the new world to be like, so she's just kind of waiting around for Aradia to tell her. Which isn't how it's supposed to work.
It kinda makes her relatable , at least to me . Maybe it’s because she wasn’t trying to kill me as opposed to my other “friends”
Previous experience with the series was just three-quarters of SMTIV, and I guess technically TMS#FE.
I think my problem is that I'm just too interested in the apocalypse itself, when the game wants to gloss over that completely and focuses on a really kind of minimalistic nonsensical story.
SMTIV I felt had an awesome story and setting, there was a lot of plot early on and a lot of random NPCs to flesh out the world. In some ways it felt Fallout-ish (of course without the humor, just the idea of pockets of humans scraping by). SMTV has none of that. And the pacing was way off, there's an intro that explains nothing, then 10 hours of no further story at all, then you get a dump of 4-5 hours of actual story. I guess that's not unheard of in gaming since Breath of the Wild had a similar pace at the start depending on how long it took you to find a town, but still...this is no Breath of the Wild. It really stretched me to the limit of gameplay-without-impetus, although I would say it improved a lot toward the end.
The game's lack of NPCs, or really any view of what the world looks like/common people, made the extremely impactful ending decisions and narration feel pointless. Like, without wanting to spoil too much, imagine a game where you go through dungeons and fight monsters and talk to no one the whole time. You get to the end and you can blow up the earth or save it. Well what do I care about either choice? Sure, I can imagine towns and villages and people crying out in anguish or joy, but if you haven't given me anything concrete to care about destroying or saving, what's the point?
Also I managed to make it to the end of the game without understanding what actually happened 18 years ago or the current state of the world. I hope somebody can give me their thoughts on this because I'm lost:
Is Da'at even real, or some other strange virtual/dimensional location? There's a line said in the game referencing that "a new Da'at would be created." Is this just a horribly roundabout way of saying, if you start with a lush beautiful world it's just going to get destroyed again? And for some reason we have to refer to the apocalyptic wasteland as Da'at and not just...the ruins of earth?
So God fought Lucifer and I'll just assume their battle destroyed Tokyo. God said "oh man this is no good" and made a "fake" Tokyo (I guess created a new virtual machine on his server and pulled up a recent backup of Tokyo and restored it to the VM), and then he died. Nobody living in Tokyo knows this, they think they're living in a normal world. As far as I can tell the VM backup interpretation makes the most sense, since they'd be as real as they were before, and a restored backup from a few days before armageddon could let them keep existing in a time-shifted reality where armageddon never happened. But...does everyone just never feel the need to leave this Tokyo? Were they self-sufficient with no imports or exports for 18 years? And regardless of the reality of semi-virtual people living in this semi-virtual Tokyo, it feels like that runs counter to the themes of the people possessing real Knowledge which demons desire. If God's death means the miracle is fading, I assume that means the people are fading, which probably also means the Knowledge is fading too? I thought Knowledge was an intrinsic force to the world. If the people don't fade alongside Tokyo, where do they go? When the miracle fails, do they all just suddenly poof into Da'at, confused and terrified?
Again, are the fake humans in fake Tokyo the only humans left?
I know none of this is supposed to matter, but they're things I want to know. They're setting details that I feel for example SMTIV explained sufficiently.
Anyway. The gameplay was good and I have no problem with the balance of open world vs. dungeons etc. As others have said the open worlds were just very large dungeons themselves. The only thing I thought was really strange was the final dungeon, which was completely based around
I think this is something you might get a different perspective on as you get closer to the end of the game. This is a spoiler for I think post-third open world area, regarding Tokyo:
Others online have described these as less about law/chaos/neutrality and instead monotheism/polytheism/atheism, with various pros and cons to each approach.
But remember the other component to God's order: the Condemnation, which separated all demons from their Knowledge and made it so that no demon could ever be powerful enough to challenge God's rule. No other Nahobinos could exist, but now we know that they can. And their Knowledge is tucked away inside humans.
So when existence is rewritten at the throne, what exactly does rejecting God's order mean? Part of the whole point of choosing this ending is to revert things to the way they were before the one God, which I would assume means stripping the Knowledge from every human and returning it to the demons, right? Or at the very least, doing nothing to impede the process of demons regaining their Knowledge.
Because the whole point of there being myriad gods powerful enough to defend their territories and perform miracles relies on them being restored to their godlike status, which means reuniting with their Knowledge. You're lifting the Condemnation and saying "everybody gets to be a Nahobino again."
So what does a human look like, stripped of their Knowledge? In a biblical sense, it was intended to be the knowledge of good and evil, the idea that without Knowledge you are innocent and pure and cannot sin because you don't know the difference. Like an animal, acting on instinct. You don't know that killing is wrong, you don't think twice and just do it for the sake of self-preservation, or because that guy was being annoying. I don't know if SMTV intends Knowledge to have this much importance, but it has to mean something, surely humanity would feel the loss in some way.
Alternatively, if every human contains some demon's Knowledge, and the process of becoming a Nahobino means merging with a demon, then eventually humanity will completely cease to exist as all humans either become Nahobino or die (as demons kill humans to prevent rival demons from regaining their Knowledge). Much was said about the myriad gods protecting Japan, but what will be left to protect? There won't be humble farmers tending to the rice fields. There won't be a lesser class that worships the gods and relies on their protection, because everyone will be gods (or dead).
Chaos either immediately ruins humanity, or at least makes it open season on them. ...Did Atsuta and Koshimizu actually think this through?
Not how it always is.
I thought the opening cutscenes basically stated that YHVH created humans and the snake wanted to cause mayhem so he gave them Knowledge to spoil YHVH's people and make them a target for demons wanting to regain their divinity.
There seems to be some sort of cosmic law of conservation of mass, rules that even gods have to operate under. YHVH couldn't just destroy Knowledge, he had to siphon it away and put it in something. Presumably, you don't get to simply say "now double the Knowledge exists, humans have it AND demons have it and everyone's happy!" By the end of the game, it's still inside humans. So either it's removed from humans to grant the myriad gods the divinity they need (a big part of rejecting YHVH's order), or you're shrugging and expecting things to work themselves out, which means humans are now targets for every demon seeking to regain divinity.
And before Baal another god and for who knows how many cycles before that. Everything involved in this game is just this one particular cycle where YHVH decided to find a way to give themselves the power.
Besides, obtaining Knowledge is more useful for the ability to use the throne than the boost in combat power it gives you. Any demon that just wants to be a tough guy in his own little fiefdom instead of going for it all will think twice about drawing unneeded attention and looking more dangerous and ambitions than they actually are.
Assuming the truth ever got out, that's a lot of entities vying to ascend.
Also I naturally assumed that the Chaos ending as envisioned by Koshimizu wouldn't be one of hypocrisy. The demons hate what God did, separating them from their Knowledge. You wouldn't expect the ideal world to be one which STILL has that issue, but simply one layer removed, as now there's a pantheon jealously keeping others from gaining Knowledge instead of just one guy doing it. I understand that could very well be the case, but I don't see it as what Koshimizu or the protagonist would want.
But on the topic..
And also absolutely many of the gods in the Chaos path will do all sorts of terrible shit. That's kinda the idea.
There will be shitty ones, There will be good ones. And it will be humans decisions who they follow and don't follow based on that. It's giving full on choice to everyone, gods and humans, to do what they want. For better or worse. But it's their choice.
At the end of the day that's the one I went with because it's basically the same as the neutral path in that way.
We already know that a world without gods is just ruled by humans who will do the most horrible things to each other. Both good and evil still exist. That doesn't change with or without the gods. So at least in the Chaos path my character has the powers of a god to do their best to protect and work for those that deserve it. Unlike in the regular world where they would be powerless to do anything but sit back and watch.
Yeah it's not a secret or anything, I cross posted it because I'm interested what people think. :P
On the other side of the human/demon split is Life, which I interpret as "the power of existence". Demons cannot be truly and permanently destroyed because after the Condemnation, they still possess Life, which grants them an eternal existence (unlike mortals).
Because mortals possess Knowledge, they are capable of changing the essence of a demon; as everyone's collective impression of Thor, or the Pixie, or Baphomet, changes, so to does the demon itself.
A Nahobino, possessing both Life and Knowledge, possesses both attributes, being able to determine their own form, and the spiritual force of will to realize that imagined form. And, with the power of the Throne, to impose their image of the world on everyone else.
I was wondering if that was coincidence. I’m doing a hard run in smtv , it is pretty miserable so far but I can see it getting easier once I get some decent demons.
SMT 4's music is like, something else.
I went back to IV to finish my second run, and yeah, it's night and day, even the presentation feels more compelling than V's, for being a 3DS game.
It's been a long time since SMT4 but there was some stuff I absolutely loved in SMT5.
V's OST is enjoyable, but nothing in it really has the kick of tracks like this:
In the wider culture, why does everyone insist on calling it by its full name or Nocturne? I see it shortened to SMT3N even. As far as I can tell there is no regular SMT3 that it would be a spinoff of, like SMT4A which does deserve its acronym, so I don't get why everyone doesn't just call it SMT3.
Anyway it's pretty great. This is maybe a weird thing to like about it, but I like how it feels like an old first person dungeon crawler, just with a 3D guy running around in view of the camera. If you ignore your character, it's basically a classic dungeon crawler. The camera locks to orthogonal angles and all the dungeons were designed in squares for it to do so. It almost feels like they designed the game to be a first person dungeon crawler but partway through development said "nobody will buy a game this old school, put a little character in there running around!"
You can even play it that way once you finish it. It's really weird how much V wants to be a sequel to Nocturne, but doesn't understand anything about what made it so great.
I need to start my hard playthrough soon.
But I cheated. I knew what element he used so I was able to have a team ready to resist it. And to compare myself to the longstanding narrative of the brick wall he poses, there's just the fact that at the time on PS2 SMT was new to the west and people didn't know how to dance on the game's terms. I have a few under my belt so I know to buff and debuff.
How did I like it? Pretty good, but I liked SMT:N better. It was lacking ... civilization. I wish there were more places like the Faerie Village, places where you can peacefully interact with demons to prove that they're not inherently bad. Plus, I like using interacting with fictional society for worldbuilding. I don't mind the limited dungeons and the open worlds were fun, but they ran too long.
The bonus boss wasn't too bad. I beat him with my first try, not counting when I was level 80 and wanted to see what the battle was like. Despite that, I was level 99 and had a dozen demons of the same level, so I'm embarrassed that it came as close as it did. I should have figured out the "Kill all but one of the summoned enemies" trick faster.
Have you ever given a thought about how you would recreate the world yourself if you weren't bound by the three alignments and the technical limits of game design? Since it was established demons have a corresponding human with their Knowledge, I would start by having all demons and their humans meet, where they can decide if they wish to merge, hang out together, or keep their distance. I see a layered world, possibly by ditching the whole "the world is round thing." Huge cities for people who prefer structure and society, vast plains for more wandering and nomadic people and demons, dark caverns for demons, undead, and well, goths, floating continents, people and angels living on clouds, whole nine yards yay.
Grats you just created the outer planes :bzz:
I mostly agree. Especially about story and characterization/people to talk to. I do think the few dungeons are pretty bad compared to the ones in SMT3 though.
It's a massive step up over the ones in IV, which apart from Lucifer's Palace, are mostly tunnels and warps with minimal verticality. There's a formula for some amazing dungeons in V, and I hope they build on it in the future.
To be clear, IV blows V away in terms of quantity, but the one(!?) dungeon we get in V was a lot more like what I enjoy in an SMT game, and felt like a Nocturne dungeon. IV's are more like the I/II/SJ formula.
I would categorize the school and the final areas as dungeons too, just bad ones.
Never even crossed my mind to categorize them that way.