Pretty sure the TT crafting different messages for candidates is an avoidable fuckup on their part that should give pause before sending would be the cause. It isn’t a good look on having an understanding of the process here when it comes to a member election.
No one forced Jeffe to comment on his own reports. Absent that there is no situation. So yes, he created this situation himself.
This is a board election, do people understand the process? You do not interfere with the candidates without some eligibility reason, and then it is to be transparent.
Jeffe's flat inability to avoid an obvious and simple conflict of interest that any corporate employee has probably had to take an HR-mandated new employee training on is an eligibility question in my mind.
But yes I would appreciate whatever receipts Hahnsoo or other mods are able to provide about whether Jeffe was commenting on his own reports.
Because that seems like a super easy and obvious conflict of interest to avoid.
Anyone here who thinks it would be okay to, as a not-mod, post in the mod forum in a report thread about your own posts has lost the plot.
That's such an easy no-go
If you are angry about this, and feel this was a breach of trust or security, there should be a question of who was aware of this on the TT and mods / admins, and why no action was taken at least the past six months since we got an admin to manage permissions on PAF.
As far as we know this happened in the open on the mod forums so if this is a problem - i don't think it is but some clearly do - it's more than about jeffe.
No actually it's still illegal to rob someone who leaves their door unlocked. Just because you shouldn't have been given access doesn't make it okay to use the access you have.
What is your basis that he wasn't supposed to have access?
He wasn't a mod anymore. He'd retired. He should not have had access to Reports.
maybe the real panopticon was the friends we made along the way
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
Your presence on this board is in direct violation of the rules but you are making accusations that you could only make if you were given access to mod forums without ever being a mod.
I was asked to be on the governance committee. If you have a problem with my presence assisting with setting up the new forums then feel free to not join them.
This seems like a pretty shitty thing to say as a member of the transition team to a person with concerns.
I am so beyond caring about the chicken littles with their persecution complex.
They can fuck off and make their own thing.
Chanus on
+2
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
we can see edit history, this would not be a very effective tactic if it had happened
So what would happen is, Jeffe would say something out of pocket, it would get reported, he would see the report, edit his comment, and the the overworked d&d mods (to put it mildly) would say "bigger problems - not dealing with that"
Oh and also while wearing the Retired Mod badge Jeffe could not be infracted, so there's also that.
that's just not functionally how the process works
i can't say Jeffe has never made a post that arguably should have received an infraction and didn't, but that is not unique to Jeffe in any way
it is pure speculation that his editing of posts affected any moderation decisions, willfully or unconsciously. i'd prefer this discussion stick to things we can be sure happened rather than veer off into "and another thing" theorycrafting
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
we can see edit history, this would not be a very effective tactic if it had happened
So what would happen is, Jeffe would say something out of pocket, it would get reported, he would see the report, edit his comment, and the the overworked d&d mods (to put it mildly) would say "bigger problems - not dealing with that"
Oh and also while wearing the Retired Mod badge Jeffe could not be infracted, so there's also that.
that's just not functionally how the process works
i can't say Jeffe has never made a post that arguably should have received an infraction and didn't, but that is not unique to Jeffe in any way
it is pure speculation that his editing of posts affected any moderation decisions, willfully or unconsciously. i'd prefer this discussion stick to things we can be sure happened rather than veer off into "and another thing" theorycrafting
That's very fair, it was pure speculation on my part, and I apologize for going off on that route.
Of course, that one can make that argument at all, and it be plausible, is itself part of the problem in a regular user having access to the forums.
Pretty sure the TT crafting different messages for candidates is an avoidable fuckup on their part that should give pause before sending would be the cause. It isn’t a good look on having an understanding of the process here when it comes to a member election.
No one forced Jeffe to comment on his own reports. Absent that there is no situation. So yes, he created this situation himself.
This is a board election, do people understand the process? You do not interfere with the candidates without some eligibility reason, and then it is to be transparent.
Jeffe's flat inability to avoid an obvious and simple conflict of interest that any corporate employee has probably had to take an HR-mandated new employee training on is an eligibility question in my mind.
But yes I would appreciate whatever receipts Hahnsoo or other mods are able to provide about whether Jeffe was commenting on his own reports.
Because that seems like a super easy and obvious conflict of interest to avoid.
Anyone here who thinks it would be okay to, as a not-mod, post in the mod forum in a report thread about your own posts has lost the plot.
That's such an easy no-go
If you are angry about this, and feel this was a breach of trust or security, there should be a question of who was aware of this on the TT and mods / admins, and why no action was taken at least the past six months since we got an admin to manage permissions on PAF.
As far as we know this happened in the open on the mod forums so if this is a problem - i don't think it is but some clearly do - it's more than about jeffe.
No actually it's still illegal to rob someone who leaves their door unlocked. Just because you shouldn't have been given access doesn't make it okay to use the access you have.
What is your basis that he wasn't supposed to have access?
He wasn't a mod anymore. He'd retired. He should not have had access to Reports.
I think the issue boils down to some people thinking he didn't have access, some people thinking he did. Not having it codified was an issue. Jeffe himself didn't realize people didn't know he could see the reports and thus didn't see it as a problem. So it should have been directly addressed earlier.
0
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
Your presence on this board is in direct violation of the rules but you are making accusations that you could only make if you were given access to mod forums without ever being a mod.
I was asked to be on the governance committee. If you have a problem with my presence assisting with setting up the new forums then feel free to not join them.
This seems like a pretty shitty thing to say as a member of the transition team to a person with concerns.
I am so beyond caring about the chicken littles with their persecution complex.
They can fuck off and make their own thing.
i understand the frustration but let's try and avoid continuing to turn up the temperature on this
to maybe help clarify the issue at hand regarding access, every ex-mod had access to the Reports forum. it was not unusual for current mods to ask for context on issues sometimes and it was helpful to have people with experience able to provide it when needed
(this is not me agreeing with or defending ex-mods having that access, i am merely describing the situation as it was. i would personally prefer no access and that sought after context could be obtained in other ways when needed)
the issue that arose stemmed from a few cases where it was felt Jeffe's input was going beyond providing context and venturing into advocacy
i do not believe this was done with any malicious intent, and there certainly hadn't been any explicitly laid-out rule or guidance against it (an oversight for sure), but it was felt by those who raised the concern that it was inappropriate and changes to the access should be made
If this was happening, I apologize. The SE vs D&D thing has long tendrils, and sometimes those issues popped up in the mod forum, as well.
Dude, what?
This, for me, has nothing to do with forum beef. It's about you and your misconduct, which you still seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize and acknowledge. You did this. Stop deflecting and take some damn responsibility.
Pretty sure the TT crafting different messages for candidates is an avoidable fuckup on their part that should give pause before sending would be the cause. It isn’t a good look on having an understanding of the process here when it comes to a member election.
No one forced Jeffe to comment on his own reports. Absent that there is no situation. So yes, he created this situation himself.
This is a board election, do people understand the process? You do not interfere with the candidates without some eligibility reason, and then it is to be transparent.
Jeffe's flat inability to avoid an obvious and simple conflict of interest that any corporate employee has probably had to take an HR-mandated new employee training on is an eligibility question in my mind.
But yes I would appreciate whatever receipts Hahnsoo or other mods are able to provide about whether Jeffe was commenting on his own reports.
Because that seems like a super easy and obvious conflict of interest to avoid.
Anyone here who thinks it would be okay to, as a not-mod, post in the mod forum in a report thread about your own posts has lost the plot.
That's such an easy no-go
If you are angry about this, and feel this was a breach of trust or security, there should be a question of who was aware of this on the TT and mods / admins, and why no action was taken at least the past six months since we got an admin to manage permissions on PAF.
As far as we know this happened in the open on the mod forums so if this is a problem - i don't think it is but some clearly do - it's more than about jeffe.
No actually it's still illegal to rob someone who leaves their door unlocked. Just because you shouldn't have been given access doesn't make it okay to use the access you have.
What is your basis that he wasn't supposed to have access?
The mod forums and their rules are literally undocumented anywhere. Every admin and mod acted as if he rightfully retained access.
He was listed as a regular user to the public.
No other former mods shown as regular user retained access.
This is a fact because a special access role was created by Hahns specifically so that Jeffe would show as regular user but retain access.
is there any info about this somewhere that I missed? because uh...why would that have happened? I feel like if we'd actually been told "jeffe will be losing his badge but will still retain all of the special access that came with the badge" I doubt we would've been like "oh okay that's fine"
like wasn't half the issue of keeping him a former mod badge that lots of folks weren't comfortable with the access that afforded him?
this whole thing seems like a bit of a shitshow
Houk on
+1
amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
This is a VERY high level read of the situation but people here who aren't officially part of the TT (temp board), mod staff, or Governance committee are having conversations with those that are, and that does bother me somewhat. Either we're full transparency or we're not, and I'm honestly fine with either if they're done right.
I'm not throwing stones, I'm trying to come at this neutrally.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
This is a ridiculous allegation. Like pretty much anyone here who's ever been in a heated discussion, there have been times when I've said something and then dialed it back. If this ever happened to a post that had been reported, it was a coincidence.
Please stop making things up.
Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
This is a ridiculous allegation. Like pretty much anyone here who's ever been in a heated discussion, there have been times when I've said something and then dialed it back. If this ever happened to a post that had been reported, it was a coincidence.
Pretty sure the TT crafting different messages for candidates is an avoidable fuckup on their part that should give pause before sending would be the cause. It isn’t a good look on having an understanding of the process here when it comes to a member election.
No one forced Jeffe to comment on his own reports. Absent that there is no situation. So yes, he created this situation himself.
This is a board election, do people understand the process? You do not interfere with the candidates without some eligibility reason, and then it is to be transparent.
Jeffe's flat inability to avoid an obvious and simple conflict of interest that any corporate employee has probably had to take an HR-mandated new employee training on is an eligibility question in my mind.
But yes I would appreciate whatever receipts Hahnsoo or other mods are able to provide about whether Jeffe was commenting on his own reports.
Because that seems like a super easy and obvious conflict of interest to avoid.
Anyone here who thinks it would be okay to, as a not-mod, post in the mod forum in a report thread about your own posts has lost the plot.
That's such an easy no-go
If you are angry about this, and feel this was a breach of trust or security, there should be a question of who was aware of this on the TT and mods / admins, and why no action was taken at least the past six months since we got an admin to manage permissions on PAF.
As far as we know this happened in the open on the mod forums so if this is a problem - i don't think it is but some clearly do - it's more than about jeffe.
No actually it's still illegal to rob someone who leaves their door unlocked. Just because you shouldn't have been given access doesn't make it okay to use the access you have.
What is your basis that he wasn't supposed to have access?
The mod forums and their rules are literally undocumented anywhere. Every admin and mod acted as if he rightfully retained access.
He was listed as a regular user to the public.
No other former mods shown as regular user retained access.
This is a fact because a special access role was created by Hahns specifically so that Jeffe would show as regular user but retain access.
is there any info about this somewhere that I missed? because uh...why would that have happened? I feel like if we'd actually been told "jeffe will be losing his badge but will still retain all of the special access that came with the badge" I doubt we would've been like "oh okay that's fine"
like wasn't half the issue of keeping him a former mod badge that lots of folks weren't comfortable with the access that afforded him?
this whole thing seems like a bit of a shitshow
Hahnsoo is reacting to posts here, he can confirm or deny this if he wants to.
For purposes of clarity, was ElJeffe the only candidate who received a non-standardized PM?
Every candidate that had an abuse of power scandal brewing got a non-standard PM.
Your honor, move to strike as non-responsive.
Was ElJeffe the only candidate who received a non-standardized PM?
It answers it more fully. The problem is not that Jeffe for an altered PM. The problem is Jeffe abused his power. If no other candidates did that then this would still be a problem. Because Jeffe abused his power.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
This is a ridiculous allegation. Like pretty much anyone here who's ever been in a heated discussion, there have been times when I've said something and then dialed it back. If this ever happened to a post that had been reported, it was a coincidence.
Please stop making things up.
You don't deny the rest, then.
This is really not helping!
+1
ToxI kill threadsDilige, et quod vis facRegistered Userregular
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
we can see edit history, this would not be a very effective tactic if it had happened
So what would happen is, Jeffe would say something out of pocket, it would get reported, he would see the report, edit his comment, and the the overworked d&d mods (to put it mildly) would say "bigger problems - not dealing with that"
Oh and also while wearing the Retired Mod badge Jeffe could not be infracted, so there's also that.
that's just not functionally how the process works
i can't say Jeffe has never made a post that arguably should have received an infraction and didn't, but that is not unique to Jeffe in any way
it is pure speculation that his editing of posts affected any moderation decisions, willfully or unconsciously. i'd prefer this discussion stick to things we can be sure happened rather than veer off into "and another thing" theorycrafting
I disagree with the characterization of pure speculation, but it is fully anecdotal for my part so I'll concede the larger point and drop it
maybe the real panopticon was the friends we made along the way
For purposes of clarity, was ElJeffe the only candidate who received a non-standardized PM?
Every candidate that had an abuse of power scandal brewing got a non-standard PM.
Your honor, move to strike as non-responsive.
Was ElJeffe the only candidate who received a non-standardized PM?
It answers it more fully. The problem is not that Jeffe for an altered PM. The problem is Jeffe abused his power. If no other candidates did that then this would still be a problem. Because Jeffe abused his power.
I think it is a serious ethical breach to access reports you're not intended to access, or to access or comment on reports made against your own posts. Downplaying that behavior in this way shows very poor judgment and, in my opinion, should be disqualifying of a leadership role.
In what way was Jeffe not intended to have access to the mod or report sub-forum? Hahnsoo was well aware, as were the other current and retired mods, because he couldn't have been posting in those sub-forums without them seeing it.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
This is a ridiculous allegation. Like pretty much anyone here who's ever been in a heated discussion, there have been times when I've said something and then dialed it back. If this ever happened to a post that had been reported, it was a coincidence.
Please stop making things up.
You don't deny the rest, then.
This is really not helping!
There's really only one thing that can help the situation and it has to come from Jeffe.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
we can see edit history, this would not be a very effective tactic if it had happened
FWIW, Chanus, I do appreciate you trying to offer a 3rd party view of this. It's clear that there's been some miscommunication somewhere between the mod staff and the TT, whether deliberate or not, and certain members coming out and making definitive sounding statements about things that they only have hearsay about is probably not helping
This is a VERY high level read of the situation but people here who aren't officially part of the TT (temp board), mod staff, or Governance committee are having conversations with those that are, and that does bother me somewhat. Either we're full transparency or we're not, and I'm honestly fine with either if they're done right.
I'm not throwing stones, I'm trying to come at this neutrally.
I am not certain what you are looking for. I have attempted to be as transparent as I can be. There is not much that is left out of here. I have also been trying to limit my comments to people specifically seeking a position of power in the new forums. I don't have a full list of that, and I am ok with it.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
This is a ridiculous allegation. Like pretty much anyone here who's ever been in a heated discussion, there have been times when I've said something and then dialed it back. If this ever happened to a post that had been reported, it was a coincidence.
I know fast moving threads where you need to reply to everyone can be overwhelming. I wanted to ask again here with an @ because the question is genuinely very important to my decisions moving forward. Not that you are fully aware of the lines you have crossed do you understand why people are upset?
That, apparently, is the scandal. I never pretended to not have access to these forums, I never told anyone I would stop using them, and I tried to operate with the utmost respect for those still performing the hard work of keeping this place running.
This is an outright lie.
I, and multiple other people, brought up concerns in the State of the Forums Threads and Geebs' Feedback Thread that your status as a Retired Mod and your access to the Mod Forum was a massive concern in terms of your access to information about moderation action, and you said on more than one occasion that you not using your access to the Mod Forum to look into reports.
I know for a while following ceasing formal moderation duties that I stopped dealing with the reports forum because after being the victim of substantial and sustained abuse, I couldn't really deal with any forum drama for a while. This was probably around that time.
In truth, conversations about various forum matters kind of bleed into each other and across the mod forum / reports forum boundary. (Mods are just as bad about staying on topic as anyone else, sometimes.) As I had more time to decompress, I was able to better deal with the drama and felt that trying to help a batch of new mods learn the ropes was worth the emotional labor. They seemed appreciative, nobody else in the mod community seemed to mind at the time, and managing the expectations of the community at large was beyond my pay grade.
It's the case that managing a community as large as PA is about dealing with lots of demands, many of them mutually conflicting, and many of them unreasonable. So I opted to act in accordance with established policy.
If established policy at CoRe, as decided democratically by our community, dictates differently, obviously I would act differently.
So putting aside the fact that you're not refuting that you lied, repeatedly, about your level of access to the mod forum:
I find it egregious in the extreme that you would try to recast people expressing concern about your moderation decisions and your level of access to moderation resources as "substantial and sustained abuse."
I was repeatedly called a racist, a transphobe, a fascist, a terrible husband, a rotten parent, and all manner of four letter words, both in PM and in public.
Many people "expressed concern about my moderation decisions." Usually the back and forth was civil. Often it resulted in me dialing back an infraction. That's not what I'm talking about.
Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
0
QuetziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderatormod
In the interest of clarity and transparency in this conversation, as someone who does have access to the reports forum, I will confirm that there were at times places were ElJeffe commented on reports that were at least indirectly concerning him. I can wrestle with the search function for a bit if we need to confirm whether or not those were directly his posts that were reported, but I know that he and I have had conversations in the reports forum that were directly linked to conversations that he was also involved in outside of the reports forum.
I have zero proof of the speculation that he has edited his posts based on reports that were made about them, and I don't recall ever seeing anything like that happen. I don't really think that's worth our time arguing over, as it is both difficult to prove and could reasonably be based around the same thing that many of us have done, saying something heated and then deciding to take it back moments later.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
we can see edit history, this would not be a very effective tactic if it had happened
So what would happen is, Jeffe would say something out of pocket, it would get reported, he would see the report, edit his comment, and the the overworked d&d mods (to put it mildly) would say "bigger problems - not dealing with that"
Oh and also while wearing the Retired Mod badge Jeffe could not be infracted, so there's also that.
that's just not functionally how the process works
i can't say Jeffe has never made a post that arguably should have received an infraction and didn't, but that is not unique to Jeffe in any way
it is pure speculation that his editing of posts affected any moderation decisions, willfully or unconsciously. i'd prefer this discussion stick to things we can be sure happened rather than veer off into "and another thing" theorycrafting
It's not only speculation it's speculation that doesn't make sense.Mods can see edits. We've had people banned for things they edited out of posts before!
I think it is a serious ethical breach to access reports you're not intended to access, or to access or comment on reports made against your own posts. Downplaying that behavior in this way shows very poor judgment and, in my opinion, should be disqualifying of a leadership role.
In what way was Jeffe not intended to have access to the mod or report sub-forum? Hahnsoo was well aware, as were the other current and retired mods, because he couldn't have been posting in those sub-forums without them seeing it.
I wasn't aware. You weren't aware.
That's the problem, that's the concern. WE weren't made aware jeffe could read and respond to our reports, all the way up to a few weeks ago.
That's a problem for the administrator though. That jeffe did respond to reports/read reports about himself, that's something that I feel everyone should be made aware of if he's going to be going for a board seat.
I think it is a serious ethical breach to access reports you're not intended to access, or to access or comment on reports made against your own posts. Downplaying that behavior in this way shows very poor judgment and, in my opinion, should be disqualifying of a leadership role.
In what way was Jeffe not intended to have access to the mod or report sub-forum? Hahnsoo was well aware, as were the other current and retired mods, because he couldn't have been posting in those sub-forums without them seeing it.
"intended" isn't the right word because yes the people who had the power to let him see those things did so knowingly. that they let him do that while making him appear as a "regular" user is a breach of trust on their part, and choosing to use (and seemingly abuse) that access despite knowing he appeared as a "regular" user to others is a breach of trust on his (and I don't accept "I didn't know people didn't know that I, a regular user, had access to parts of the forum that no other regular user did" as an excuse)
I think it is a serious ethical breach to access reports you're not intended to access, or to access or comment on reports made against your own posts. Downplaying that behavior in this way shows very poor judgment and, in my opinion, should be disqualifying of a leadership role.
In what way was Jeffe not intended to have access to the mod or report sub-forum? Hahnsoo was well aware, as were the other current and retired mods, because he couldn't have been posting in those sub-forums without them seeing it.
The intention is beyond the point. Advocating for yourself and your friends in the mod forums is an abuse of power. There is simply no other way to view it.
I think painting that as blackmail or coercion is incredibly inflammatory. They warned you that your past actions would be addressed with the community, if not by them than by the community at large. Honestly this alone makes me think you don't belong in that role, regardless of what may or may not have happened behind the scenes.
That was my immediate red flag.
There's a thing called DARVO. It stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender. It's a very common tactic for abusers when confronted with their behavior.
This is not too call Jeffe an abuser - but the way that the immediate response was to solicit sympathy while claiming you're being black mailed?
LasbrookIt takes a lot to make a stewWhen it comes to me and youRegistered Userregular
I know it's been asserted twice now but I find the notion that every single person who's ever had mod status in the 15 or so years here effectively never had it revoked ludicrous. If you quit being a mod you should not have access to the mod forums full stop. We had a vanilla developer on hire for the first couple of years, you can't tell me we never built revoking permissions into the system.
Also, we need to stop acting like the retired mod status was ever meant to serve a purpose. It was created as a stopgap to try and placate people who felt there was an abuse of power by someone who had stepped down and then was never followed up on until we got new, active, administration.
...It has been known since time immemorial that ex-mods have access to the mod forums. I have no fucking clue how anyone with a reg date ante 2020 and more than two functioning brain cells does not know this.
Trying to blackmail an ex-mod with "If you don't back out of your candidacy for a completely separate forum that nominally is leaving all the PA stuff behind, we're gonna reveal that you, an ex-mod, had access to the mod forums after you retired" reads about as serious a thing as Trump going "If you don't do what we want, we'll reveal that you, ex-official, still have a security clearance".
I also find it funny that this is happening with ElJeffe and not Bogey, Rankenphile, Whippy, Knob, etc. who have all either practically stepped back, or explicitly done so while still retaining full backroom access.
Fortunately I assume none of the mods and board members of the future will have any friends
Being willing to hold your friends to the same rules as everyone else is a requirement for every position of power. Mods here have absolutely had to infract their friends before. I remember one hilarious instance of a mod infracting his girlfriend because she @ed him while breaking the Glorious Edict.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
Your presence on this board is in direct violation of the rules but you are making accusations that you could only make if you were given access to mod forums without ever being a mod.
Gereg request a self ban and post wipe for personal reasons, not for breaking any rules.
They have access to this information because they are part of the group organising the transition to the new forums and moderators raised the issue.
...It has been known since time immemorial that ex-mods have access to the mod forums. I have no fucking clue how anyone with a reg date ante 2020 and more than two functioning brain cells does not know this.
Trying to blackmail an ex-mod with "If you don't back out of your candidacy for a completely separate forum that nominally is leaving all the PA stuff behind, we're gonna reveal that you, an ex-mod, had access to the mod forums after you retired" reads about as serious a thing as Trump going "If you don't do what we want, we'll reveal that you, ex-official, still have a security clearance".
I also find it funny that this is happening with ElJeffe and not Bogey, Rankenphile, Whippy, Knob, etc. who have all either practically stepped back, or explicitly done so while still retaining full backroom access.
If any of them want to be on the board and kept advocating on reports they're involved i I would also want that reported before I voted for them.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
Your presence on this board is in direct violation of the rules but you are making accusations that you could only make if you were given access to mod forums without ever being a mod.
Gereg request a self ban and post wipe for personal reasons, not for breaking any rules.
They have access to this information because they are part of the group organising the transition to the new forums and moderators raised the issue.
to be perfectly clear here
the issue was raised out of the mod forum and we considered it to be relevant to the Governance committee, which is how Gereg is involved
Fortunately I assume none of the mods and board members of the future will have any friends
Being willing to hold your friends to the same rules as everyone else is a requirement for every position of power. Mods here have absolutely had to infract their friends before. I remember one hilarious instance of a mod infracting his girlfriend because she @ed him while breaking the Glorious Edict.
Okay but do we have evidence of that? Posting to offer advice and advocating for leinency for a friend are two very different things.
There's a lack of transparency that makes this whole thing difficult to discuss.
Another thing: it's very obvious in retrospect that Jeffe used his access to the report forums to edit posts that were reported so that he wouldn't necessarily get an infraction.
Your presence on this board is in direct violation of the rules but you are making accusations that you could only make if you were given access to mod forums without ever being a mod.
Gereg request a self ban and post wipe for personal reasons, not for breaking any rules.
They have access to this information because they are part of the group organising the transition to the new forums and moderators raised the issue.
to be perfectly clear here
the issue was raised out of the mod forum and we considered it to be relevant to the Governance committee, which is how Gereg is involved
Gereg does not have access to any mod forum
Who even the fuck is Gereg, anyway? Beyond flouting the rules about no alt accounts allowed outside of H&A.
Fortunately I assume none of the mods and board members of the future will have any friends
Being willing to hold your friends to the same rules as everyone else is a requirement for every position of power. Mods here have absolutely had to infract their friends before. I remember one hilarious instance of a mod infracting his girlfriend because she @ed him while breaking the Glorious Edict.
Sounds as hilarious as the modding-unseriously power dynamics of stickying joke threads and letting Jeffe keep a status has turned out to be.
That, apparently, is the scandal. I never pretended to not have access to these forums, I never told anyone I would stop using them, and I tried to operate with the utmost respect for those still performing the hard work of keeping this place running.
This is an outright lie.
I, and multiple other people, brought up concerns in the State of the Forums Threads and Geebs' Feedback Thread that your status as a Retired Mod and your access to the Mod Forum was a massive concern in terms of your access to information about moderation action, and you said on more than one occasion that you not using your access to the Mod Forum to look into reports.
I know for a while following ceasing formal moderation duties that I stopped dealing with the reports forum because after being the victim of substantial and sustained abuse, I couldn't really deal with any forum drama for a while. This was probably around that time.
In truth, conversations about various forum matters kind of bleed into each other and across the mod forum / reports forum boundary. (Mods are just as bad about staying on topic as anyone else, sometimes.) As I had more time to decompress, I was able to better deal with the drama and felt that trying to help a batch of new mods learn the ropes was worth the emotional labor. They seemed appreciative, nobody else in the mod community seemed to mind at the time, and managing the expectations of the community at large was beyond my pay grade.
It's the case that managing a community as large as PA is about dealing with lots of demands, many of them mutually conflicting, and many of them unreasonable. So I opted to act in accordance with established policy.
If established policy at CoRe, as decided democratically by our community, dictates differently, obviously I would act differently.
So putting aside the fact that you're not refuting that you lied, repeatedly, about your level of access to the mod forum:
I find it egregious in the extreme that you would try to recast people expressing concern about your moderation decisions and your level of access to moderation resources as "substantial and sustained abuse."
I was repeatedly called a racist, a transphobe, a fascist, a terrible husband, a rotten parent, and all manner of four letter words, both in PM and in public.
Many people "expressed concern about my moderation decisions." Usually the back and forth was civil. Often it resulted in me dialing back an infraction. That's not what I'm talking about.
For what it's worth, I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Having said that, it's also extremely telling that you didn't bother to separate all of that from the feedback you considered "civil," and it's completely irrelevant to the point that you had access to resources you shouldn't have had, made use of that access for your own benefit, and then lied about it repeatedly.
If Jeffe was a MAGA who had sold anti-vax multilevel marketing over the boards, had abused his power and was also a bad tipper, this would not justify the behavior of the TT.
As it is @Chanus confirms no rules were violated and the biggest complaint is that *some* felt he got too close to advocacy on moderation issues.
Attempting to redirect from the documented, with receipts, behavior of the TT is telling.
Posts
He wasn't a mod anymore. He'd retired. He should not have had access to Reports.
I am so beyond caring about the chicken littles with their persecution complex.
They can fuck off and make their own thing.
that's just not functionally how the process works
i can't say Jeffe has never made a post that arguably should have received an infraction and didn't, but that is not unique to Jeffe in any way
it is pure speculation that his editing of posts affected any moderation decisions, willfully or unconsciously. i'd prefer this discussion stick to things we can be sure happened rather than veer off into "and another thing" theorycrafting
That's very fair, it was pure speculation on my part, and I apologize for going off on that route.
Of course, that one can make that argument at all, and it be plausible, is itself part of the problem in a regular user having access to the forums.
I think the issue boils down to some people thinking he didn't have access, some people thinking he did. Not having it codified was an issue. Jeffe himself didn't realize people didn't know he could see the reports and thus didn't see it as a problem. So it should have been directly addressed earlier.
i understand the frustration but let's try and avoid continuing to turn up the temperature on this
Dude, what?
This, for me, has nothing to do with forum beef. It's about you and your misconduct, which you still seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize and acknowledge.
You did this. Stop deflecting and take some damn responsibility.
is there any info about this somewhere that I missed? because uh...why would that have happened? I feel like if we'd actually been told "jeffe will be losing his badge but will still retain all of the special access that came with the badge" I doubt we would've been like "oh okay that's fine"
like wasn't half the issue of keeping him a former mod badge that lots of folks weren't comfortable with the access that afforded him?
this whole thing seems like a bit of a shitshow
I'm not throwing stones, I'm trying to come at this neutrally.
This is a ridiculous allegation. Like pretty much anyone here who's ever been in a heated discussion, there have been times when I've said something and then dialed it back. If this ever happened to a post that had been reported, it was a coincidence.
Please stop making things up.
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You don't deny the rest, then.
Hahnsoo is reacting to posts here, he can confirm or deny this if he wants to.
It answers it more fully. The problem is not that Jeffe for an altered PM. The problem is Jeffe abused his power. If no other candidates did that then this would still be a problem. Because Jeffe abused his power.
This is really not helping!
I disagree with the characterization of pure speculation, but it is fully anecdotal for my part so I'll concede the larger point and drop it
It is a simple "yes" or "no" question.
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In what way was Jeffe not intended to have access to the mod or report sub-forum? Hahnsoo was well aware, as were the other current and retired mods, because he couldn't have been posting in those sub-forums without them seeing it.
There's really only one thing that can help the situation and it has to come from Jeffe.
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I am not certain what you are looking for. I have attempted to be as transparent as I can be. There is not much that is left out of here. I have also been trying to limit my comments to people specifically seeking a position of power in the new forums. I don't have a full list of that, and I am ok with it.
@ElJeffe
I know fast moving threads where you need to reply to everyone can be overwhelming. I wanted to ask again here with an @ because the question is genuinely very important to my decisions moving forward. Not that you are fully aware of the lines you have crossed do you understand why people are upset?
I was repeatedly called a racist, a transphobe, a fascist, a terrible husband, a rotten parent, and all manner of four letter words, both in PM and in public.
Many people "expressed concern about my moderation decisions." Usually the back and forth was civil. Often it resulted in me dialing back an infraction. That's not what I'm talking about.
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I have zero proof of the speculation that he has edited his posts based on reports that were made about them, and I don't recall ever seeing anything like that happen. I don't really think that's worth our time arguing over, as it is both difficult to prove and could reasonably be based around the same thing that many of us have done, saying something heated and then deciding to take it back moments later.
It's not only speculation it's speculation that doesn't make sense.Mods can see edits. We've had people banned for things they edited out of posts before!
I wasn't aware. You weren't aware.
That's the problem, that's the concern. WE weren't made aware jeffe could read and respond to our reports, all the way up to a few weeks ago.
That's a problem for the administrator though. That jeffe did respond to reports/read reports about himself, that's something that I feel everyone should be made aware of if he's going to be going for a board seat.
"intended" isn't the right word because yes the people who had the power to let him see those things did so knowingly. that they let him do that while making him appear as a "regular" user is a breach of trust on their part, and choosing to use (and seemingly abuse) that access despite knowing he appeared as a "regular" user to others is a breach of trust on his (and I don't accept "I didn't know people didn't know that I, a regular user, had access to parts of the forum that no other regular user did" as an excuse)
nobody's the good guy here
The intention is beyond the point. Advocating for yourself and your friends in the mod forums is an abuse of power. There is simply no other way to view it.
That was my immediate red flag.
There's a thing called DARVO. It stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender. It's a very common tactic for abusers when confronted with their behavior.
This is not too call Jeffe an abuser - but the way that the immediate response was to solicit sympathy while claiming you're being black mailed?
Yikes. That's a huge red flag.
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Also, we need to stop acting like the retired mod status was ever meant to serve a purpose. It was created as a stopgap to try and placate people who felt there was an abuse of power by someone who had stepped down and then was never followed up on until we got new, active, administration.
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Trying to blackmail an ex-mod with "If you don't back out of your candidacy for a completely separate forum that nominally is leaving all the PA stuff behind, we're gonna reveal that you, an ex-mod, had access to the mod forums after you retired" reads about as serious a thing as Trump going "If you don't do what we want, we'll reveal that you, ex-official, still have a security clearance".
I also find it funny that this is happening with ElJeffe and not Bogey, Rankenphile, Whippy, Knob, etc. who have all either practically stepped back, or explicitly done so while still retaining full backroom access.
Being willing to hold your friends to the same rules as everyone else is a requirement for every position of power. Mods here have absolutely had to infract their friends before. I remember one hilarious instance of a mod infracting his girlfriend because she @ed him while breaking the Glorious Edict.
Gereg request a self ban and post wipe for personal reasons, not for breaking any rules.
They have access to this information because they are part of the group organising the transition to the new forums and moderators raised the issue.
If any of them want to be on the board and kept advocating on reports they're involved i I would also want that reported before I voted for them.
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to be perfectly clear here
the issue was raised out of the mod forum and we considered it to be relevant to the Governance committee, which is how Gereg is involved
Gereg does not have access to any mod forum
Okay but do we have evidence of that? Posting to offer advice and advocating for leinency for a friend are two very different things.
There's a lack of transparency that makes this whole thing difficult to discuss.
Who even the fuck is Gereg, anyway? Beyond flouting the rules about no alt accounts allowed outside of H&A.
Sounds as hilarious as the modding-unseriously power dynamics of stickying joke threads and letting Jeffe keep a status has turned out to be.
For what it's worth, I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Having said that, it's also extremely telling that you didn't bother to separate all of that from the feedback you considered "civil," and it's completely irrelevant to the point that you had access to resources you shouldn't have had, made use of that access for your own benefit, and then lied about it repeatedly.
As it is @Chanus confirms no rules were violated and the biggest complaint is that *some* felt he got too close to advocacy on moderation issues.
Attempting to redirect from the documented, with receipts, behavior of the TT is telling.