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Filming of Tom Cruise movie banned in Germany

KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
edited July 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
http://imdb.com/news/wenn/2007-06-26/
Germany has banned filming of Tom Cruise's new movie at its military bases because they object to the actor's Scientology religion. Scientology is not recognized as a church by the German government, who claim the controversial religion is a "money-making cult." Cruise is set to begin filming Valkyrie in Germany this summer, in which he plays Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, leader of an unsuccessful plot to kill Adolf Hitler during World War II. Harald Kammerbauer, spokesman for the country's Defense Ministry, says, "(Producers) will not be allowed to film at German military sites if Count Stauffenberg is played by Tom Cruise, who has publicly professed to being a member of the Scientology cult. In general, the Bundeswehr (German military) has a special interest in the serious and authentic portrayal of the events of July 20, 1944 and Stauffenberg's person."

Personally, I think stuff like this is bullshit. I realize Germany's censorship laws aren't the same as ours, and that this is probably constitutionally acceptable there, but they're essentially saying "We aren't fans of this religion, so it's okay to discriminate against it." I'm not a fan of Scientology any more than the rest of the world, but discrimination based on religion shouldn't be any more acceptable in this scenario than it would if they banned any movie directed by Christians.

What do you guys think? Is this as ethically unjustifiable as I perceive it to be?

Kaputa on
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Posts

  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Scientology isn't a religion, it's a money-making cult and I'm glad (and somewhat surprised) to hear Germany explicitly recognises it as such.

    Æthelred on
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  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I don't care if it's justified, I think it's awesome.


    Then again, I like whiny people getting fucked over once awhile.

    Magus` on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I doubt it's because he's a scientologist, but rather, because he's an outspoken scientologist. Germany likely doesn't want to associate themselves with im, and his religion.

    Is it right? That's debatable, but I do think the point should be made that anyone who is outspoken about their beliefs should be willing to face the consequences of that.

    Evander on
  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I don't understand what's so wrong about discriminating against foreigners in this manner. Tom Cruise is not a German citizen, he's not owed any right to do anything there. America does this too (well we do much worse, but I mean in a "this is ok and legal" sense). The only thing that's dumb about this is that the movie has nothing to do with Scientology, so they're kind stretching it.

    Either way, fuck Tom Cruise and his extra-retarded religion.

    Hoz on
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Scientology isn't a religion, it's a money-making cult and I'm glad (and somewhat surprised) to hear Germany explicitly recognises it as such.
    a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

    or
    a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

    How is Scientology not a religion? You could argue that it's not a good religion, but it's still a religion, even if it exploits its followers financially.

    And the difference between a cult and a religion is essentially how many people agree with it. Discriminating against a cult is no more justifiable than discriminating against a major religion.

    Kaputa on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    For anyone not totally understanding this: Germany hasn't banned Tom Cruise from entering the country, or the movie from being filmed there. They've not allowed it being filmed at military sites. The film is about the attempted assassination of Hitler in 1944, by members of the Germany military. Because Tom Cruise is a member of a cult - one which is monitored in Germany under suspicion that its activities are "directed against the free democratic order" - the Bundeswehr don't trust him to make a film about some of their officers.

    Æthelred on
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  • Something WittySomething Witty Registered User
    edited June 2007
    It must be the over-abundance of German psychiatrists. Their so glib.

    Something Witty on
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  • OtakuD00DOtakuD00D Can I hit the exploding rocks? San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.

    I don't see what the deal is here.

    OtakuD00D on
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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    What is it about Scientology that appeals so much to celebrities in the first place?

    Zek on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Wow.

    Fuck Germany and its discrimination.

    Tom Cruises religion means nothing to me nor should it to anyone else.

    The_Scarab on
    scarab you have mental problems
  • D90D90 Registered User
    edited June 2007
    If he was part of a real religion, then it would be morally unacceptable.
    But he isn't.
    So it's fine.

    It's just sort of annoying that it's getting in the way of a film.

    D90 on
  • Ant000Ant000 Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Tom Cruise as a German? A German Nazi? I really can't picture it...

    Ant000 on
  • AdrienAdrien Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Zek wrote: »
    What is it about Scientology that appeals so much to celebrities in the first place?

    ...money making cult?

    I mean it's gotta be like a home away from home.

    Adrien on
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  • OtakuD00DOtakuD00D Can I hit the exploding rocks? San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Zek wrote: »
    What is it about Scientology that appeals so much to celebrities in the first place?

    If you can, find the only recorded interview with L. Ron Hubbard. It's an interesting video, and pretty hilarious to boot.

    OtakuD00D on
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  • DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Just because Scientology is technically a religion doesn't mean that it can't be judged.

    Dichotomy on
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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.

    I don't see what the deal is here.
    "Religion" and "load of bullshit" are far from mutually exclusive. Just because we see Scientology as the bullshit it is doesn't make it less of a religion than Christianity or Islam.

    Kaputa on
  • Ant000Ant000 Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Zek wrote: »
    What is it about Scientology that appeals so much to celebrities in the first place?

    As far as I know they specifically go out to recruit celebrities, and give them a completely different experience and version of Scientology than those who follow the celebrities in will be apart of.

    Ant000 on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Kaputa wrote: »
    And the difference between a cult and a religion is essentially how many people agree with it. Discriminating against a cult is no more justifiable than discriminating against a major religion.

    No; they're totally different. An commercial organisation that decides to call itself a religion isn't a religion. When the founder of your 'religion' is on record saying "The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion." then DING DING DING we've found a cult. If Methodists extorted money from their followers and drove people to suicide then I'd damn well be down with blocking them at every step as well.

    Æthelred on
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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Big fucking deal. This isn't anything Hollywood can't accomplish on a set with a blue screen.

    Germany doesn't want to be associated with a whacko cultist celebrity. The German government has every right to make this decision.

    AbsoluteZero on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.

    That comment made me laugh.

    Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.

    Loren Michael on
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  • PharezonPharezon Struggle is an illusion. Victory is in the Qun.Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    hi5 Germany. :^:

    Pharezon on
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  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.

    The leadership is the issue to me. There's a serious difference between a religion, where the people at the top believe it to be true, and a cult, where the people at the top know it's all a pack of lies.

    Æthelred on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.

    The leadership is the issue to me. There's a serious difference between a religion, where the people at the top believe it to be true, and a cult, where the people at the top know it's all a pack of lies.

    I don't think you can make a substantive case either way. Did Jerry Falwell believe his own bullshit or not? Chris Hitchens didn't think so. I don't know for certain. I don't see the justification here. Do you think Tom Cruise doesn't believe that the tenets of Scientology are true?

    Loren Michael on
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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.

    That comment made me laugh.

    Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.
    Exactly. I'm not defending Scientology here, or saying that it's not exploitative and harmful, but you can't say "It's not a religion!" just because people try to gyp people out of money with it.

    Dichotomy wrote: »
    Just because Scientology is technically a religion doesn't mean that it can't be judged.
    It should be able to be judged, in the same way as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. The problem I have here isn't people negatively judging the religion.

    Kaputa on
  • HaphazardHaphazard Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.

    That comment made me laugh.

    Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.

    Yes, it is. In your country. Not over here.

    It is classified as a chiefly money oriented venture and not a church.

    Also you guys shoul hear what Stauffenbergs son has to say about Cruise playing his father (hint: it's not very positive).

    Haphazard on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited June 2007
    Tom Cruise is a stupid loon.

    Germany's decision is stupid and loony.

    Basically, everyone involved in this story is stupid and deserves to implode under the weight of said stupidity.

    ElJeffe on
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  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Personally, I think stuff like this is bullshit. I realize Germany's censorship laws aren't the same as ours, and that this is probably constitutionally acceptable there, but they're essentially saying "We aren't fans of this religion, so it's okay to discriminate against it." I'm not a fan of Scientology any more than the rest of the world, but discrimination based on religion shouldn't be any more acceptable in this scenario than it would if they banned any movie directed by Christians.
    It's not censorship.

    They're merely not allowing their facilities to be used for the film because they are concerned with how Claus von Stauffenberg, a very important figure in German history, will be portrayed my Tom Cruise.

    How would people react if a foreign company was going to produce a film about George Washington with a highly controversial personality in the title role?

    Would it be "censorship" for West Point to deny the film production access to its grounds?

    Andrew_Jay on
  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I have to say, this is pretty much the best thing i've read this month.

    Rami on
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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Basically the title of this thread is a lie. Nothing was banned, the German government just said "keep this crazy asshole out of our military bases please."

    Zek on
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Alright, I'll edit the thread title to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the story.
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Personally, I think stuff like this is bullshit. I realize Germany's censorship laws aren't the same as ours, and that this is probably constitutionally acceptable there, but they're essentially saying "We aren't fans of this religion, so it's okay to discriminate against it." I'm not a fan of Scientology any more than the rest of the world, but discrimination based on religion shouldn't be any more acceptable in this scenario than it would if they banned any movie directed by Christians.
    It's not censorship.

    They're merely not allowing their facilities to be used for the film because they are concerned with how Claus von Stauffenberg, a very important figure in German history, will be portrayed my Tom Cruise.

    How would people react if a foreign company was going to produce a film about George Washington with a highly controversial personality in the title role?

    Would it be "censorship" for West Point to deny the film production access to its grounds?
    Their justification for not allowing them to use their facilities is his religion. People would bitch endlessly if, say, an outspoken Muslim wanted to make a film and the government said "No, you can't film at these facilities, because you're a Muslim."

    Kaputa on
  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    If by "outspoken Muslim" you mean an extremist then no they wouldn't.

    Hoz on
  • HaphazardHaphazard Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Get over it, Scientology is not a recognised religion in most of Europe. Try to rework your argument from there.

    Haphazard on
  • CaswynbenCaswynben Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Their justification for not allowing them to use their facilities is his religion. People would bitch endlessly if, say, an outspoken Muslim wanted to make a film and the government said "No, you can't film at these facilities, because you're a Muslim."
    This is nothing like that. Scientology is literally a money making scam pretending to be a religion.

    Caswynben on
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Tom Cruise is a stupid loon.

    Germany's decision is stupid and loony.

    Basically, everyone involved in this story is stupid and deserves to implode under the weight of said stupidity.
    I agree with this post entirely.
    Haphazard wrote: »
    Get over it, Scientology is not a recognised religion in most of Europe. Try to rework your argument from there.
    Okay. I think it's stupid that Germany's government arbitrarily decides which religions are officially "recognized."

    Kaputa on
  • HaphazardHaphazard Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Haphazard wrote: »
    Get over it, Scientology is not a recognised religion in most of Europe. Try to rework your argument from there.
    Okay. I think it's stupid that Germany's government arbitrarily decides which religions are officially "recognized."

    Your Government does it too. You know that, right?

    Haphazard on
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Their justification for not allowing them to use their facilities is his religion. People would bitch endlessly if, say, an outspoken Muslim wanted to make a film and the government said "No, you can't film at these facilities, because you're a Muslim."

    His religion browbeats and frames people in attempts to drive them to suicide, and has infiltrated the US government to try and, IIRC, throw a court case.

    I wouldn't want them anywhere near my country either, but we appear to be stuck with the morons. :P

    Phoenix-D on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Alright, I'll edit the thread title to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the story.

    It's still wrong; it's only banned from filming at military bases.
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    Their justification for not allowing them to use their facilities is his religion. People would bitch endlessly if, say, an outspoken Muslim wanted to make a film and the government said "No, you can't film at these facilities, because you're a Muslim."

    The US military only tends to allow filming at military sites and use of official vehicles etc if the film portrays war in a good light. Is that okay? And like Hoz said, if that Muslim was an extremist - which all Scientologists by definition are - then you can be damn sure that he wouldn't be allowed to film at West Point.

    Æthelred on
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  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Caswynben wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Their justification for not allowing them to use their facilities is his religion. People would bitch endlessly if, say, an outspoken Muslim wanted to make a film and the government said "No, you can't film at these facilities, because you're a Muslim."
    This is nothing like that. Scientology is literally a money making scam pretending to be a religion.
    What Tom Cruise thinks Scientology is relevant, not what we think it is.

    Hoz on
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Caswynben wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Their justification for not allowing them to use their facilities is his religion. People would bitch endlessly if, say, an outspoken Muslim wanted to make a film and the government said "No, you can't film at these facilities, because you're a Muslim."
    This is nothing like that. Scientology is literally a money making scam pretending to be a religion.
    How is it "pretending" to be a religion? Do you not think that most Scientologists believe in what the religion teaches? I don't see how "money making scam" and "religion" are mutually exclusive either.

    Kaputa on
  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    For anyone not totally understanding this: Germany hasn't banned Tom Cruise from entering the country, or the movie from being filmed there. They've not allowed it being filmed at military sites. The film is about the attempted assassination of Hitler in 1944, by members of the Germany military. Because Tom Cruise is a member of a cult - one which is monitored in Germany under suspicion that its activities are "directed against the free democratic order" - the Bundeswehr don't trust him to make a film about some of their officers.

    The thing I thought was interesting was that they had some German MP on BBC World Service this morning and she seemed to be saying that this was more just that they don't let people film on military locations often, like apparently they wouldn't let Spielberg film at the Reichstag for Schindler's List or whatever. She did point out specifically that they were perfectly free to set up on a soundstage. I don't know how accurate that is though, since she probably wasn't directly involved.

    And I don't think something's a religion if you have to pay to progress in it. I mean, monetary contributions are encouraged in most religions, but it's not like "Oh man, you're never going to believe what happens to Jesus next. But I can't tell you anything more until you cough up a couple thousand bucks for this seminar we're having."

    seasleepy on
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