And yeah, Germany would've done better for themselves if they hadn't used the word cult here. They get in enough trouble for spying on and bullying the scientologists as it is.
Ah, but Scientology is a cult.
And besides which Scientologists themselves bully and spy on people all the time. Them complaining about it is laughably hypocritical.
It's not so much "afraid of someone who things differently than them" as much as they are unwilling to co-operate with a production that will feature someone who they consider to be a weirdo portraying an important German hero. The temporary physical presence of Tom Cruise on the set is the least of their worries.
I wish I could think of an example, but I'm sure there must be other examples of an actor being criticised for not being "suitable" to play some historical figure.
You are awesome Jay.
And yeah, Germany would've done better for themselves if they hadn't used the word cult here. They get in enough trouble for spying on and bullying the scientologists as it is.
Cult is precisely what scientology is, and many of its leaders are guilty of conspiracy, harassment, defamation, racketeering and fraud. They usually respond to any criticism of their organization, however valid, by accusing the critics of membership in a vast international conspiracy to "destroy the Scientology religion" and of concealing a secret criminal past. They then attack their critics with a multi-pronged shitstorm of litigation, harassment, impersonation and slander, for example by calling up their relatives, friends and colleagues and telling them the critic is a child molester. I would frankly be floored if Tom Cruise, who has basically become the figurehead of Scientology, were not in some way involved in such activities.
I would frankly be floored if Tom Cruise, who has basically become the figurehead of Scientology, were not in some way involved in such activities.
He's likely not, and neither is Kirstie Alley or that little red head from Grounded for Life. Scientologists celebreties are much like the British royalty, Tom Cruise just seems to take his role with a bit more zealotry than others.
I mean, hell, they have an entire division of their command structure dedicated to recruiting and keeping celebrities, with their own center in Hollywood. It's a very different thing for them than it is for the stupid little dipshits that tried to get in a fight with me at Kennesaw State University for wearing a t-shirt that said "SP" on it.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
t's a very different thing for them than it is for the stupid little dipshits that tried to get in a fight with me at Kennesaw State University for wearing a t-shirt that said "SP" on it.
What the fuck? "SP?" What the fuck was their issue with that?
No one is suggesting that Scientologists should be allowed to go anywhere on earth they please, least of all BECAUSE they are scientologists. The debate here is if the German government is justified in denying Tom Cruise access to a movie set specifically because he is a scientologist. You are WAY off base.
Well, let's see here:
Tom Cruise, prior to obtaining clearance to access a German military base: Not allowed to access a German military base.
Tom Cruise, after attempting to obtain clearance to access a German military base: Not allowed to access a German military base.
That poor, oppressed Tom Cruise! What have they done to him!?
The fact of the matter is that even though the German government is more than justified in denying Cruise access due to his ties with Scientology, who have been shown to engage in espionage against the German government, they don't fucking have to justify it. By default, people are not allowed on a German military base; it's a goddamn privilege. People can't just go up and gain clearance automatically.
t's a very different thing for them than it is for the stupid little dipshits that tried to get in a fight with me at Kennesaw State University for wearing a t-shirt that said "SP" on it.
What the fuck? "SP?" What the fuck was their issue with that?
It means suppressive person. Hubbard coined it himself, and anybody that is deemed an SP is subject to loss of their property, harm, destruction, etc. as acted upon by any member of the church. A few people came to campus one semester and started handing out pamphlets on Dianetics, and had decided to make a regular thing of it. I stood about thirty feet away handing out t-shirts I made with "SP" branded on them, extolling the virtues of the church.
One of the fuckers walked over to me and stuck a loudspeaker in my face and made that squealing noise, so I found their van later and flattened their tires. I really need to stop sharing all my stories of aggression and hatred to you, Hacks.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
So with crews like this, with lots of people suckered in and giving up loot and totally convinced that its all true, do the upper echelons believe its all true as well? If they don't have they just faked their way to the top or what?
Is there some sort of vetting process to select the few top dogs in these cults?
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You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
So with crews like this, with lots of people suckered in and giving up loot and totally convinced that its all true, do the upper echelons believe its all true as well? If they don't have they just faked their way to the top or what?
Is there some sort of vetting process to select the few top dogs in these cults?
The people who make it to the top get a share of the phat lewtz. I doubt they gives two shits about whether or not it's fake.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
or
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
How is Scientology not a religion? You could argue that it's not a good religion, but it's still a religion, even if it exploits its followers financially.
And the difference between a cult and a religion is essentially how many people agree with it. Discriminating against a cult is no more justifiable than discriminating against a major religion.
Hey look, I just created a religion; it's called you're an idiot.
What we do is form a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of your stupidity. I'd like you to join, because without you-there would be no religion.
@ege02: It's the same reason why we think you're a douche-because you are.
I don't see why people think Tom Cruise is a douche.
Public figurehead for a shady cult. What's not to hate?
Yeah, but people hated him way before that.
But this organization is being far douchier than most, go back and look at the links for project snow white or project freakout, or just type them in wiki.
If you disagree with these people publicly, or show them in anything other than a flattering light they will do their utmost to ruin your life. This is not an exaggeration. Aside from the aforementioned calling everyone you know and telling them you might be a pedophile they have also tried to frame crtitics for bomb threats and once tried to have a woman commited to an asylum. This is not secret information. Anybody who still choses to associate with folks like these deserves whatever shunning they get.
ALocksly on
Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
It's just much more transparent in its being full of shit than most since people have grown up believing in magical spirits and not magical aliens.
I'd argue that the relevant thing that's more transparent about it are its clandestine activities.
Maybe you haven't read much about the history of, say, the Catholic church.
It really just comes down to people being more skeptical about "Zomg, Aliens!" than "Zomg, Angels!"
Mind you, I do not look forward to the future possibility of the Crusade of the Space Pope.
look, people are wondering why Scientology gets all the shitalk. It's because they are, to this day, doing those clandestine things that have been mentioned, on top of bullying people who speak out against them with legal threats and other unseemly, but legal means.
that is why they're generally classified as a cult where other religions aren't. now if you want to argue that other religions are, right this very instant doing shit as bad/worse than Scientology, fine, argue that. If you want to argue that if Scientology was more popular and widely accepted, it wouldn't be so cultish and unseemly then fine, argue that.
As it is now, I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing, other than,"buuuut look what the christian/islam/othermajorreligions did X years ago! that was also bad!" If that is what you're saying, I do not care. I do not care about religions, or how valid they are. I care about their impact on society, and I think Scientology is much more of a net loss than the other major players today.
Cult and religion are interchangeable terms. Their common use just regards their POPULARITY and ACCEPTANCE. They mean the same thing.
The valid concern with scientology is that they are doing things that, for the most part, other religions STOPPED doing a century or so ago in the West.
But it really hasn't been that long since heretics have been slaughtered for questioning church edicts.
My point is that it's stupid to pretend they aren't a religion. They're just unusually aggressive for a modern Western religion at this particular moment. They should still get the shit kicked out of them, but stop pulling this rhetorical crap.
Cult and religion are interchangeable terms. Their common use just regards their POPULARITY and ACCEPTANCE. They mean the same thing.
The valid concern with scientology is that they are doing things that, for the most part, other religions STOPPED doing a century or so ago in the West.
But it really hasn't been that long since heretics have been slaughtered for questioning church edicts.
My point is that it's stupid to pretend they aren't a religion. They're just unusually aggressive for a modern Western religion at this particular moment. They should still get the shit kicked out of them, but stop pulling this rhetorical crap.
So what are your thoughts on governmentally classified cults?
Its not just that they do things that other religions stopped doing centuries ago, its that much of the stuff they do is downright illegal in the present. Look at the catholic church, i fucking hate it, i think its a despicable bastion of filth, a weeping sore upon society. But at least it does its dirty stuff legally, for the most part. There are however documented cases about scientology doing everything from harassing and defaming people to stealing government documents, to ENSLAVING ITS MEMBERS. Thats the difference between it and an accepted religion
Can we invent some sort of "Godwin's Law: The Religious Version", whereby any religious discussion will inevitably result in someone saying "But, The Crusades!!!!".
No one is suggesting that Scientologists should be allowed to go anywhere on earth they please, least of all BECAUSE they are scientologists. The debate here is if the German government is justified in denying Tom Cruise access to a movie set specifically because he is a scientologist. You are WAY off base.
Well, let's see here:
Tom Cruise, prior to obtaining clearance to access a German military base: Not allowed to access a German military base.
Tom Cruise, after attempting to obtain clearance to access a German military base: Not allowed to access a German military base.
That poor, oppressed Tom Cruise! What have they done to him!?
The fact of the matter is that even though the German government is more than justified in denying Cruise access due to his ties with Scientology, who have been shown to engage in espionage against the German government, they don't fucking have to justify it. By default, people are not allowed on a German military base; it's a goddamn privilege. People can't just go up and gain clearance automatically.
NO BECAUSE IN AMERICA WE ALLOW ANYONE INTO MILITARY BASES WHO WANT TO SHOOT MOVIES ON THEM!!
Oh wait we don't do that here either..
Seriously I think people just read the first few lines and see "Tom Cruise.. filming.. in Germany.. banned.." OH SHIT TOM CRUISE IS BANNED FROM GERMANY!
You fools, Scientology isn't a religion or a cult, it's a study of knowingness. Don't you uncivilized fools know enlightenment when it comes up and bites you on your collective asses?
You obviously know nothing of the outnesses about you.
I actually liked Tom Cruises's acting in recent years with Minority Report and War Of The Worlds. As he ages his acting becomes more appealing to me as I never liked him in his older hot shot films. Anyways, I can care less about Scientology but what Germany did was discrimination and makes me wonder what else they are discriminating against as well. Jews perhaps?!?
I actually liked Tom Cruises's acting in recent years with Minority Report and War Of The Worlds. As he ages his acting becomes more appealing to me as I never liked him in his older hot shot films. Anyways, I can care less about Scientology but what Germany did was discrimination and makes me wonder what else they are discriminating against as well. Jews perhaps?!?
How is it discrimination? non military personal are refused access to an army base. Hardly sounds terribly unjust given the background of scientology. Also shut the fuck up mate.
You fools, Scientology isn't a religion or a cult, it's a study of knowingness. Don't you uncivilized fools know enlightenment when it comes up and bites you on your collective asses?
You obviously know nothing of the outnesses about you.
they had all the right in the world to ban him from a military base
For some reason some people think that Germany is obligated to allow Hollywood filming crews on operational military bases.
I dont think anyone's questiong whether they had the right to do it. It was more the reason they chose to give.
I know absolutely nothing about scientology - other than anectotal assertions that its either ridiculous or evil. I'm agnostic myself, but I dont like the idea of anyone being singled out purely on the basis of their beliefs. I certainly dont like it.
I cant help but think that there may be more to it - and that we dont know the full extent of the difficulties between scientology and the German govt?
they had all the right in the world to ban him from a military base
For some reason some people think that Germany is obligated to allow Hollywood filming crews on operational military bases.
I dont think anyone's questiong whether they had the right to do it. It was more the reason they chose to give.
I know absolutely nothing about scientology - other than anectotal assertions that its either ridiculous or evil. I'm agnostic myself, but I dont like the idea of anyone being singled out purely on the basis of their beliefs. I certainly dont like it.
I cant help but think that there may be more to it - and that we dont know the full extent of the difficulties between scientology and the German govt?
Go to wiki and type in Project Snow White or Project Freakout. I think any government would be justified in keeping that oraganization out.
ALocksly on
Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
Well apparently "At the Interior Ministers and State Senators Conference of 5/6 June 1997, it was found that the Scientology Organization (SO) in fact manifested key indicators of endeavors against the German liberal democratic system, thereby fulfilling the legal provisions for the surveillance of the organization by Constitutional Security.:"
so..it seems like Germany treats Scientology almost as a terrorist organization, hell they apparently have them under surveillance, it's common sense that a Government that views an organization as terrorists shouldn't allow its members inside military installations...
See, yeah. An organization that essentially wants to subvert democratic order in your country wants to put a person in one of your military bases? I too would have said no.
Yeah yeah yeah, hurr all religions are the same, but the pope isn't planning on defrauding the german government.
I hope.
Edit: Plus, L. Ron's books were shit. Why couldn't Hal Clement have started a cult?
Posts
And besides which Scientologists themselves bully and spy on people all the time. Them complaining about it is laughably hypocritical.
Cult is precisely what scientology is, and many of its leaders are guilty of conspiracy, harassment, defamation, racketeering and fraud. They usually respond to any criticism of their organization, however valid, by accusing the critics of membership in a vast international conspiracy to "destroy the Scientology religion" and of concealing a secret criminal past. They then attack their critics with a multi-pronged shitstorm of litigation, harassment, impersonation and slander, for example by calling up their relatives, friends and colleagues and telling them the critic is a child molester. I would frankly be floored if Tom Cruise, who has basically become the figurehead of Scientology, were not in some way involved in such activities.
He's likely not, and neither is Kirstie Alley or that little red head from Grounded for Life. Scientologists celebreties are much like the British royalty, Tom Cruise just seems to take his role with a bit more zealotry than others.
I mean, hell, they have an entire division of their command structure dedicated to recruiting and keeping celebrities, with their own center in Hollywood. It's a very different thing for them than it is for the stupid little dipshits that tried to get in a fight with me at Kennesaw State University for wearing a t-shirt that said "SP" on it.
Well, let's see here:
Tom Cruise, prior to obtaining clearance to access a German military base: Not allowed to access a German military base.
Tom Cruise, after attempting to obtain clearance to access a German military base: Not allowed to access a German military base.
That poor, oppressed Tom Cruise! What have they done to him!?
The fact of the matter is that even though the German government is more than justified in denying Cruise access due to his ties with Scientology, who have been shown to engage in espionage against the German government, they don't fucking have to justify it. By default, people are not allowed on a German military base; it's a goddamn privilege. People can't just go up and gain clearance automatically.
It means suppressive person. Hubbard coined it himself, and anybody that is deemed an SP is subject to loss of their property, harm, destruction, etc. as acted upon by any member of the church. A few people came to campus one semester and started handing out pamphlets on Dianetics, and had decided to make a regular thing of it. I stood about thirty feet away handing out t-shirts I made with "SP" branded on them, extolling the virtues of the church.
One of the fuckers walked over to me and stuck a loudspeaker in my face and made that squealing noise, so I found their van later and flattened their tires. I really need to stop sharing all my stories of aggression and hatred to you, Hacks.
Is there some sort of vetting process to select the few top dogs in these cults?
He does have terrible taste in women, but still.
They're going to snipe you.
Yeah, but people hated him way before that.
Hey look, I just created a religion; it's called you're an idiot.
What we do is form a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of your stupidity. I'd like you to join, because without you-there would be no religion.
@ege02: It's the same reason why we think you're a douche-because you are.
It's just much more transparent in its being full of shit than most since people have grown up believing in magical spirits and not magical aliens.
I'd argue that the relevant thing that's more transparent about it are its clandestine activities.
On the black screen
Maybe you haven't read much about the history of, say, the Catholic church.
It really just comes down to people being more skeptical about "Zomg, Aliens!" than "Zomg, Angels!"
Mind you, I do not look forward to the future possibility of the Crusade of the Space Pope.
But this organization is being far douchier than most, go back and look at the links for project snow white or project freakout, or just type them in wiki.
If you disagree with these people publicly, or show them in anything other than a flattering light they will do their utmost to ruin your life. This is not an exaggeration. Aside from the aforementioned calling everyone you know and telling them you might be a pedophile they have also tried to frame crtitics for bomb threats and once tried to have a woman commited to an asylum. This is not secret information. Anybody who still choses to associate with folks like these deserves whatever shunning they get.
look, people are wondering why Scientology gets all the shitalk. It's because they are, to this day, doing those clandestine things that have been mentioned, on top of bullying people who speak out against them with legal threats and other unseemly, but legal means.
that is why they're generally classified as a cult where other religions aren't. now if you want to argue that other religions are, right this very instant doing shit as bad/worse than Scientology, fine, argue that. If you want to argue that if Scientology was more popular and widely accepted, it wouldn't be so cultish and unseemly then fine, argue that.
As it is now, I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing, other than,"buuuut look what the christian/islam/othermajorreligions did X years ago! that was also bad!" If that is what you're saying, I do not care. I do not care about religions, or how valid they are. I care about their impact on society, and I think Scientology is much more of a net loss than the other major players today.
On the black screen
The valid concern with scientology is that they are doing things that, for the most part, other religions STOPPED doing a century or so ago in the West.
But it really hasn't been that long since heretics have been slaughtered for questioning church edicts.
My point is that it's stupid to pretend they aren't a religion. They're just unusually aggressive for a modern Western religion at this particular moment. They should still get the shit kicked out of them, but stop pulling this rhetorical crap.
So what are your thoughts on governmentally classified cults?
On the black screen
NO BECAUSE IN AMERICA WE ALLOW ANYONE INTO MILITARY BASES WHO WANT TO SHOOT MOVIES ON THEM!!
Oh wait we don't do that here either..
Seriously I think people just read the first few lines and see "Tom Cruise.. filming.. in Germany.. banned.." OH SHIT TOM CRUISE IS BANNED FROM GERMANY!
I never asked for this!
You obviously know nothing of the outnesses about you.
How is it discrimination? non military personal are refused access to an army base. Hardly sounds terribly unjust given the background of scientology. Also shut the fuck up mate.
Oh snapz! His thetans be _vexed!_
For some reason some people think that Germany is obligated to allow Hollywood filming crews on operational military bases.
I dont think anyone's questiong whether they had the right to do it. It was more the reason they chose to give.
I know absolutely nothing about scientology - other than anectotal assertions that its either ridiculous or evil. I'm agnostic myself, but I dont like the idea of anyone being singled out purely on the basis of their beliefs. I certainly dont like it.
I cant help but think that there may be more to it - and that we dont know the full extent of the difficulties between scientology and the German govt?
Go to wiki and type in Project Snow White or Project Freakout. I think any government would be justified in keeping that oraganization out.
so..it seems like Germany treats Scientology almost as a terrorist organization, hell they apparently have them under surveillance, it's common sense that a Government that views an organization as terrorists shouldn't allow its members inside military installations...
Yeah yeah yeah, hurr all religions are the same, but the pope isn't planning on defrauding the german government.
I hope.
Edit: Plus, L. Ron's books were shit. Why couldn't Hal Clement have started a cult?