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I WOULD HAVE WORDS WITH THEE (Thor Thread)

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Posts

  • smokmnkysmokmnky Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    As much as I want to see it, I just don't think Thor is going to do much to Tony

    smokmnky on
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    >enter Hulk. Stage: Space<

    PantheraOnca on
  • BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2007
    smokmnky wrote: »
    As much as I want to see it, I just don't think Thor is going to do much to Tony
    You think so very very wrong.

    Yes, I remembered you like to read it all at once.

    Blankspace on
    SIG.gif
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Adaemus1sf wrote: »
    Also, he doesn't need to go after Stark for the Initiative stuff, since he's got every right to be pissed about the killer cyborg-clone. Thor's kicked people's asses for less than that.

    Oh yes, that's true. No doubt.

    As for invading: he rebuilt the capital of a sovereign nation within the borders of the USA. That's invasion. Again, part of my point is that he's done something that at the very least will be perceived as extremely antagonistic by the people in control of the US. There's no possible way he thought they'd say "Oh hey, Thor's back, isn't it great that he put his entire nation inside ours even though last time he did that he started to go mad with power by eliminating all free will?"

    When Thor took over, he suppressed everything. He didn't elevate at all, except to eliminate disease (which has the awful implication that he could eliminate disease right now, just like Reed Richards, etc.). That's the reason the future Thor implanted his memories is past Thor to prevent the future: he knew that taking control of people's free will isn't the answer.

    Stark hasn't engaged in that sort of behavior: he's extended existing mundane licensing/training/military laws to their logical coverage of super-powered individuals. We're not going to turn this thread into a SHRA thread, but the point is that Stark hasn't attempted anything near what Thor already did.

    What we're talking about here is that Thor began his return by doing something he KNEW, positively, would piss off anyone in charge of the USA. Why did he do that, except as an attempt to elicit this very sort of response by Stark? In fact, this makes Stark's (albeit foolish) initial conversation far more reasonable, because he's engaging in standard negotiating techniques to attempt to regain the upper hand. No negotiator pulls back when an aggressive opponent pushes forward: you push back. Thor has forced Stark's hand.

    mattharvest on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    To be fair, at the moment it's still a mostly-empty collection of floating buildings rather than a 'city' per se.

    Wildcat on
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    You like the word invasion.

    That's cool.

    Invasion invasion invasion invasion invasion.

    Now, the fact of the matter is, he just built a house/complex. Last I checked, that wasn't illegal. There aren't laws concerning the making of land to be floating, even in the marvel universe (as far as I know).
    They were able to scan Asgard and tell that it was empty.

    Tony needs to stop acting like a tool of The Man and be more human. An empty Asgard does not an invasion make.

    PantheraOnca on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    You like the word invasion.

    That's cool.

    Invasion invasion invasion invasion invasion.

    Now, the fact of the matter is, he just built a house/complex. Last I checked, that wasn't illegal. There aren't laws concerning the making of land to be floating, even in the marvel universe (as far as I know).
    They were able to scan Asgard and tell that it was empty.

    Tony needs to stop acting like a tool of The Man and be more human. An empty Asgard does not an invasion make.

    I want to be really clear: he declared the existence of a nation - Asgard - that would be outside the sovereign control of the US government, within the US government's boundaries.

    Do you get why that's invasion? If he built his Asgard, but said "We're subject to American laws and regulations, like everyone else who builds on American land" then we'd be okay, but he did just the opposite. His reaction to Stark only exemplifies this: he's outright rejecting US laws.

    So, to summarize:
    (1) building a private building on land you own = legal.
    (2) declaring yourself to be a sovereign land, no longer subject to US laws, despite being inside US land = illegal, and an act of war.

    If it helps to make this point clear, think of Waco et al.: all those survivalist idiots who declare themselves sovereign nation and force our military to surround them are violating the law. The only reason they're not "invaders" is that they started in the US legally. Thor, on the other hand, has invaded. But fine, if you don't like that word, we can stick with secession, the forcible removal of land from our nation, which has been illegal in the USA since the American Civil War. This isn't even debatable philosophy like the SHRA stuff: he's outright violating an explicit US law.

    mattharvest on
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    i don't remeber the sovereignty bit.

    i will check this when i get home.


    (p.s. should i turn out to be wrong im not admitting it because stark's a douche.)


    Spite makes Right.

    PantheraOnca on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Regardless of whether Thor has or hasn't any moral high ground, were I Tony Stark I would possibly decide to be a bit more circumspect in putting my points across to the God of Thunder and Lightning, y'know?

    Wildcat on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    i don't remeber the sovereignty bit.

    i will check this when i get home.


    (p.s. should i turn out to be wrong im not admitting it because stark's a douche.)


    Spite makes Right.

    In fairness, I fully agree that Thor gets a free "Beat the hell out of Stark" card for the ridiculous Clor debacle. Everything else aside, that was batshit crazy.

    Now, as a preemptive point: no, Thor hasn't explicitly stated "This is sovereign land, bitches!" but all his conversation about it (as well as internal narrative) has shown him to believe it sovereign. Moreover, his immediate rejection of Stark confirms it.

    Moreover, you have the obvious fact that Asgard couldn't run as anything but sovereign: otherwise, police and military (not to mention SHIELD) would have to have full access to it (in the same way as any other private land) to enforce US laws. Since Thor has stated that's not happening, that's all it takes.

    mattharvest on
  • AstnsAstns Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    First post!

    Loving the new series, nothing but awesome thus far.

    However I've been wondering what the word is on Thor still having the Odin-power as he did at the end of Disassembled? Summoning Asgard from oblivion & then making the entire place float above the ground seems beyond the capabilities of plain old vanilla Thor.

    If he does still possess it then what are the implications? Especially for Tony?

    Astns on
  • delphinusdelphinus Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Astns wrote: »
    First post!

    Loving the new series, nothing but awesome thus far.

    However I've been wondering what the word is on Thor still having the Odin-power as he did at the end of Disassembled? Summoning Asgard from oblivion & then making the entire place float above the ground seems beyond the capabilities of plain old vanilla Thor.

    If he does still possess it then what are the implications? Especially for Tony?

    Thor will have a new red and gold, iron crown

    delphinus on
  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    If Thor beats the living hell out of Stark he will be my new favorite character of all time.

    Stark is, like, the best villain ever.

    Accualt on
  • TachTach Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Why does Iron Man even think that he can order Thor around? I mean- he knows the guy is a GOD, right. Pretty much puts him above Tony's petty earth-bound concerns.

    I'm ready for the hammer to fall, though. Stark needs a good beat down from someone besides the Hulk.

    Speaking of that- have we a timeline for when these events are taking place?

    Tach on
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Does it really matter if it's a Soverign Nation if he's a god?

    Just the fact that he is Thor should mean that he can put his crap where ever he wants to.

    Xaquin on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Does it really matter if it's a Soverign Nation if he's a god?

    Just the fact that he is Thor should mean that he can put his crap where ever he wants to.

    Well, it all hinges on your understanding of "god". There was a thread about this awhile ago, but the salient points are these: in Marvel's universe, there were several groups of "gods" - e.g. the Roman and Greek gods (and their confusing contemporaries, the Eternals) as well as the Norse. None of these beings are creator-gods (the Sky-Father gods in each pantheon have conspired with each other on multiple occasions, admitting that they're not the creators). We've never been given an origin of each of these pantheons, although Ragnarok told us a lot about the Norse. Per Ragnarok's revelations, Those Who Sit Above created (or manipulated) the Norse into their circular fate of death and rebirth. Moreover, the status of TWSA and the Norse is malleable, since THSA offered to make Thor one of them.

    Fantastic Four has shown us the creator-god of Marvel in the form of a comic artist (per Thing's resurrection and the repair of Reed's then-scarred face).

    We also know about the Tribunal and other cosmic entities, all of whom are orders of magnitude higher in power than any of the Norse or other pantheons.

    So, at the end of the day, the Norse gods are just powerful aliens, just like Silver Surfer at best. Actually, Silver Surfer has a better claim on what we'd traditionally refer to as "godhood", since Galactus is literally a part of our universe's creation, and Surfer's powers flow directly from Galactus. Thor, on the other hand, appears to just be powered the same way Cyclops is: through evolution of some sort within our physical universe.

    This means that Thor should be regarded in precisely the same way as any other powered individual.

    This sort of confusion is the natural outcome of Marvel's universe having an extremely blurry line between physics and metaphysics. The concrete existence of a creator-god (and all the ensuing philosophical problems therein) makes it harder, because we don't know how he relates to the other semi-divine aspects of the universe. The only entities we KNOW to be truly divine are the Aspects of the Universe - e.g. Eternity, Galactus, and the Living Tribunal - with all other apparent gods such as the Norse being apparently mere aliens.

    mattharvest on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Tach wrote: »
    Why does Iron Man even think that he can order Thor around? I mean- he knows the guy is a GOD, right. Pretty much puts him above Tony's petty earth-bound concerns.

    I'm ready for the hammer to fall, though. Stark needs a good beat down from someone besides the Hulk.

    Speaking of that- have we a timeline for when these events are taking place?

    Implicitly post-WWH (otherwise Thor would have intervened in WWH, after Hulk threatened to destroy the world) and thus post-Ultron. There hasn't been an explicit timeline yet.

    mattharvest on
  • delphinusdelphinus Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Tach wrote: »
    Why does Iron Man even think that he can order Thor around? I mean- he knows the guy is a GOD, right. Pretty much puts him above Tony's petty earth-bound concerns.

    I'm ready for the hammer to fall, though. Stark needs a good beat down from someone besides the Hulk.

    Speaking of that- have we a timeline for when these events are taking place?

    Implicitly post-WWH (otherwise Thor would have intervened in WWH, after Hulk threatened to destroy the world) and thus post-Ultron. There hasn't been an explicit timeline yet.

    i think they completely screwed over WWH hulk with this pre and post storyline nonsense

    delphinus on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Does it really matter if it's a Soverign Nation if he's a god?

    Just the fact that he is Thor should mean that he can put his crap where ever he wants to.

    Well, it all hinges on your understanding of "god". There was a thread about this awhile ago, but the salient points are these: in Marvel's universe, there were several groups of "gods" - e.g. the Roman and Greek gods (and their confusing contemporaries, the Eternals) as well as the Norse. None of these beings are creator-gods (the Sky-Father gods in each pantheon have conspired with each other on multiple occasions, admitting that they're not the creators). We've never been given an origin of each of these pantheons, although Ragnarok told us a lot about the Norse. Per Ragnarok's revelations, Those Who Sit Above created (or manipulated) the Norse into their circular fate of death and rebirth. Moreover, the status of TWSA and the Norse is malleable, since THSA offered to make Thor one of them.

    Fantastic Four has shown us the creator-god of Marvel in the form of a comic artist (per Thing's resurrection and the repair of Reed's then-scarred face).

    We also know about the Tribunal and other cosmic entities, all of whom are orders of magnitude higher in power than any of the Norse or other pantheons.

    So, at the end of the day, the Norse gods are just powerful aliens, just like Silver Surfer at best. Actually, Silver Surfer has a better claim on what we'd traditionally refer to as "godhood", since Galactus is literally a part of our universe's creation, and Surfer's powers flow directly from Galactus. Thor, on the other hand, appears to just be powered the same way Cyclops is: through evolution of some sort within our physical universe.

    This means that Thor should be regarded in precisely the same way as any other powered individual.

    This sort of confusion is the natural outcome of Marvel's universe having an extremely blurry line between physics and metaphysics. The concrete existence of a creator-god (and all the ensuing philosophical problems therein) makes it harder, because we don't know how he relates to the other semi-divine aspects of the universe. The only entities we KNOW to be truly divine are the Aspects of the Universe - e.g. Eternity, Galactus, and the Living Tribunal - with all other apparent gods such as the Norse being apparently mere aliens.

    Didn't Thor 1 cover the whole 'gods are created from belief by mortals' bit pretty well? Or am I misremembering?

    SageinaRage on
    sig.gif
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    sageina, thats pretty much what it said.

    also, while silver surfer may have the same or similar power level as some supposed gods, he doesn't have a belief structure built around him.

    Those Who Sit Above may be a recurring antagonist for the new thor run, who knows.

    long story short, there may not be much of a difference between some super-powered entities and entities classified as gods, but they (the super non-gods) are rarely, if ever, referred to as gods as part of the narration.

    PantheraOnca on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Ok, it's time to revive this thread because not only is a new issue coming out this week, drawn by the extremely talented Marko Djurdjevic (who will hopefully allow Copiel to get some issues in the can and get this book back on schedule).

    But, this past weekend at WWLA we finally got to see some preview art from Matt Fraction's upcoming Thor one-shots.

    ho lee shit

    thorages001002-03.jpg
    thorages001004-05.jpg
    thorages001006-07.jpg

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • smokmnkysmokmnky Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Wow

    smokmnky on
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    So awesome

    deadonthestreet on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I dont even want them to color it. I'd buy it in black and white with no hesitations.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    That's preeeetry amazing.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2008
    holy shit thor clobbered that idiot

    Servo on
    newsigs.jpg
  • CerriusCerrius Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Does it really matter if it's a Soverign Nation if he's a god?

    Just the fact that he is Thor should mean that he can put his crap where ever he wants to.

    That second sentence is hilarious if you've read Thor #6, where they discuss how Asgard disposes of its waste.

    Cerrius on
    [SIGPIC]image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5578&dateline=1219903129[/SIGPIC]
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    hahahahahahaha


    "That would explain the smell..."

    Crimsondude on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Man, that is fantastic. I really do hope they put out an uncoloured version as well as the main one.

    Wildcat on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2008
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Does it really matter if it's a Soverign Nation if he's a god?

    Just the fact that he is Thor should mean that he can put his crap where ever he wants to.

    Well, it all hinges on your understanding of "god". There was a thread about this awhile ago, but the salient points are these: in Marvel's universe, there were several groups of "gods" - e.g. the Roman and Greek gods (and their confusing contemporaries, the Eternals) as well as the Norse. None of these beings are creator-gods (the Sky-Father gods in each pantheon have conspired with each other on multiple occasions, admitting that they're not the creators). We've never been given an origin of each of these pantheons, although Ragnarok told us a lot about the Norse. Per Ragnarok's revelations, Those Who Sit Above created (or manipulated) the Norse into their circular fate of death and rebirth. Moreover, the status of TWSA and the Norse is malleable, since THSA offered to make Thor one of them.

    Fantastic Four has shown us the creator-god of Marvel in the form of a comic artist (per Thing's resurrection and the repair of Reed's then-scarred face).

    We also know about the Tribunal and other cosmic entities, all of whom are orders of magnitude higher in power than any of the Norse or other pantheons.

    So, at the end of the day, the Norse gods are just powerful aliens, just like Silver Surfer at best. Actually, Silver Surfer has a better claim on what we'd traditionally refer to as "godhood", since Galactus is literally a part of our universe's creation, and Surfer's powers flow directly from Galactus. Thor, on the other hand, appears to just be powered the same way Cyclops is: through evolution of some sort within our physical universe.

    This means that Thor should be regarded in precisely the same way as any other powered individual.

    This sort of confusion is the natural outcome of Marvel's universe having an extremely blurry line between physics and metaphysics. The concrete existence of a creator-god (and all the ensuing philosophical problems therein) makes it harder, because we don't know how he relates to the other semi-divine aspects of the universe. The only entities we KNOW to be truly divine are the Aspects of the Universe - e.g. Eternity, Galactus, and the Living Tribunal - with all other apparent gods such as the Norse being apparently mere aliens.

    but in thor this week we find out that
    odin created man

    now it's even more confusing!

    (the whole issue was totally kickass though. i love the ravens. i hope thor keeps them hanging around on his shoulders, like he did for a while in ragnarok)

    Servo on
    newsigs.jpg
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I assume that Odin is either deluded, lying, or some combination of the two. We know for a fact that, in Marvel, man evolved. We know this because of, among other things, the various aliens that have interacted with us at different times in our evolution (e.g. the Celestials and their tinkering).

    Alternately, Odin may be speaking metaphorically: the timescales here are absurdly large, potentially, meaning his 'creation' of humanity may involve breathing the spark of life into the first living cells on Earth, etc.

    Also, keep in mind Herc's comments over in Incredible Herc: myths exist only to have meaning for the person hearing it.

    mattharvest on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Also, keep in mind Herc's comments over in Incredible Herc: myths exist only to have meaning for the person hearing it.

    That's exactly what I was thinking when I read Thor. Odin is making a point, not recounting history.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Or JMS dosen't give a shit.

    That's always a possibility.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I assume that Odin is either deluded, lying, or some combination of the two. We know for a fact that, in Marvel, man evolved. We know this because of, among other things, the various aliens that have interacted with us at different times in our evolution (e.g. the Celestials and their tinkering).

    Alternately, Odin may be speaking metaphorically: the timescales here are absurdly large, potentially, meaning his 'creation' of humanity may involve breathing the spark of life into the first living cells on Earth, etc.

    Also, keep in mind Herc's comments over in Incredible Herc: myths exist only to have meaning for the person hearing it.

    Maybe he just created the Norse man.

    Crimsondude on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I assume that Odin is either deluded, lying, or some combination of the two. We know for a fact that, in Marvel, man evolved. We know this because of, among other things, the various aliens that have interacted with us at different times in our evolution (e.g. the Celestials and their tinkering).

    Alternately, Odin may be speaking metaphorically: the timescales here are absurdly large, potentially, meaning his 'creation' of humanity may involve breathing the spark of life into the first living cells on Earth, etc.

    Also, keep in mind Herc's comments over in Incredible Herc: myths exist only to have meaning for the person hearing it.

    Maybe he just created the Norse man.

    That's a problem, since Norse man seems to have bred quite successfully with the rest of us as a species.

    I think the most likely thing is that it's metaphorical, that 'creation' refers to breathing a spark of life or what have you. Alternately, he COULD be referring to 'elevating' the humans in his area by making them smarter but still human, etc.

    mattharvest on
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    or he could be claiming responsibility for the mutation in our ape-like ancestors that resulted in mankind.

    PantheraOnca on
  • übergeekübergeek Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Odin is the son of gods who created the universe. He "borrowed" Dad's recipe to create his Norse men, hence the explanation as to why his Norse can have kids with any other humans, and why Dad was displeased with Odin. It's either that or a Myth like Herc explained, no need for the "RAWR U R WRONG!"

    übergeek on
    camo_sig.png
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Odin is the son of gods who created the universe. He "borrowed" Dad's recipe to create his Norse men, hence the explanation as to why his Norse can have kids with any other humans, and why Dad was displeased with Odin. It's either that or a Myth like Herc explained, no need for the "RAWR U R WRONG!"

    The problem is that Odin is laying claim to something that is equally claimed by his peers. For example, he has exactly the same status (relative to the established history of creation in Marvel) as Zeus. Both of them claim to have 'created' man, and neither has a greater (apparent) claim.

    So, how do we figure that out?

    I'm not saying we know, I'm saying that it's frustrating that we don't know how to really view Odin's otherwise quite-cool story.

    mattharvest on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2008
    here's what he said, pulled right out of the book, just for clarity's sake (i don't have a scanner)
    "I walked in Midgard before mortals existed, and found it beautiful, but empty. And I thought, perhaps a new race, created in this palce, could be my dream. My legacy.

    And so it was that I first breathed life into man. My father was...ill-pleased."

    then he goes on to talk about how his dad made man suffer from lighting storms and wolf attacks, but it definitely is being presented as though Odin created man.

    that said, i agree that in the MU, nothing seems to be quite that simple, but in the book it is definitely stated flat out that there weren't people on earth before odin put them there.

    my gut reaction is actually more along the line of august's, in that, while in the marvel universe there may be evolution and/or a creator god in addition to the norse pantheon, JMS just doesn't give a shit and is telling a cool thor epic. which really, that's fine with me. galactus is just gonna eat 'em all in the end anyway.

    Servo on
    newsigs.jpg
  • LockeColeLockeCole Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    here's what he said, pulled right out of the book, just for clarity's sake (i don't have a scanner)
    "I walked in Midgard before mortals existed, and found it beautiful, but empty. And I thought, perhaps a new race, created in this palce, could be my dream. My legacy.

    And so it was that I first breathed life into man. My father was...ill-pleased."
    then he goes on to talk about how his dad made man suffer from lighting storms and wolf attacks, but it definitely is being presented as though Odin created man.

    that said, i agree that in the MU, nothing seems to be quite that simple, but in the book it is definitely stated flat out that there weren't people on earth before odin put them there.

    my gut reaction is actually more along the line of august's, in that, while in the marvel universe there may be evolution and/or a creator god in addition to the norse pantheon, JMS just doesn't give a shit and is telling a cool thor epic. which really, that's fine with me. galactus is just gonna eat 'em all in the end anyway.

    Query: Are we sure in the MU that Midgard is Earth? Perhaps he created humans on some other planet/universe?

    LockeCole on
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