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The $20 problem
Phawx
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hey fellas,
So, the $20 problem. Everyone has their opinion about the supposed value of RPoD, but I find myself agreeing with both sides of the coin.
I have 'yet' to finish this game because of work and family but I hope to finish it tonight. SO FAR, I have LOL'd twice and smiled a couple of times. (I believe my problem for this may be because I am playing the 360 version and the tooltips that pop up when trying to inspect something is very hard to be accurate with. You guys should really have the D-pad cycle through different tooltips when in certain situations.) So when I pressing the 'A' button I will choose the wrong tooltip and just want to skip it and I feel rushed through this part of the game.
So, yea, comedy. So what? Is comedy in a videogame worth extra $ for some reason? Portal I found to be hilarious. Portal is also shorter than RPoD but I feel that game was worth $20 through Steam.
So people try comparing games. Like Puzzle Quest for XBLA at $15. Now personally, I don't like Puzzle Quest. I do like the entire Halo series (including the single player. I have read all the books and enjoy the Sci-fi Story.) Which M&J don't really care for the single player. Which is fine.
But M&J were on Major Nelson's Podcast and compared Bejeweled with RPoD (in terms of being $20) as a justification. Personally, I would never pay $20 for Bejeweled. But I did pay $20 for RPoD. I do believe a genre and its inherent properties lean toward value.
Fighting Games don't have story to carry it forward. # of charecters is worthless. The most important part of fighting games is how well you can fine tune the mechanics. And than it becomes a game of skill and can be played endlessly. That's the value of this Genre.
Compare that to an Adventure/RPG and it is a very linear story. So what can you add to it to increase value? Length of game play. Areas to explore. Charecter Development. Method of progression (Which I have to say I am a HUGE fan of the combat system. This is the only way turn-based RPG's should handle. Really, Bravo guys!)
The length of game play I am okay with. I wish there was more areas to explore than what is in episode 1, but it's fine. The charecter development is pretty good and I can see the troubles you had trying to have the comic strip feel into this video game.
I gotta wrap this up because I am going to be leaving work in a minute. So...
CONCLUSION
$20 is fine for the foundation of this game and episode 1. The following episodes better be either:
A.) Twice as deep as episode 1 for $20
-or-
B.) You treat further episodes as modules to a game system. Since the 'Foundation' of the game is already completed and everyone paid the 'tax', subsequent episodes will be priced at $10
Obviously this is just my opinion and quite a few people are angry about this 'price'. But when Castle Crashers comes out for 360 priced at $20, they are going to compare that game to yours and say 'WTF' and if the other episodes are priced at $20, personally for me, I will not purchase them.
Thanks for standing up for the gamer Mike and Jerry. Hopefully you carefully weigh this situation and proceed with caution. You guys *might* sound like hypocrites. With how you guys nail Gamestop all the time for screwing developers and gamers alike, now you'll just be screwing you're fanbase.
Yes, yes, it's *Only* $20. But it's the perceived VALUE of that $20 that's the problem.
Still a HUGE fan of P-A!
So, the $20 problem. Everyone has their opinion about the supposed value of RPoD, but I find myself agreeing with both sides of the coin.
I have 'yet' to finish this game because of work and family but I hope to finish it tonight. SO FAR, I have LOL'd twice and smiled a couple of times. (I believe my problem for this may be because I am playing the 360 version and the tooltips that pop up when trying to inspect something is very hard to be accurate with. You guys should really have the D-pad cycle through different tooltips when in certain situations.) So when I pressing the 'A' button I will choose the wrong tooltip and just want to skip it and I feel rushed through this part of the game.
So, yea, comedy. So what? Is comedy in a videogame worth extra $ for some reason? Portal I found to be hilarious. Portal is also shorter than RPoD but I feel that game was worth $20 through Steam.
So people try comparing games. Like Puzzle Quest for XBLA at $15. Now personally, I don't like Puzzle Quest. I do like the entire Halo series (including the single player. I have read all the books and enjoy the Sci-fi Story.) Which M&J don't really care for the single player. Which is fine.
But M&J were on Major Nelson's Podcast and compared Bejeweled with RPoD (in terms of being $20) as a justification. Personally, I would never pay $20 for Bejeweled. But I did pay $20 for RPoD. I do believe a genre and its inherent properties lean toward value.
Fighting Games don't have story to carry it forward. # of charecters is worthless. The most important part of fighting games is how well you can fine tune the mechanics. And than it becomes a game of skill and can be played endlessly. That's the value of this Genre.
Compare that to an Adventure/RPG and it is a very linear story. So what can you add to it to increase value? Length of game play. Areas to explore. Charecter Development. Method of progression (Which I have to say I am a HUGE fan of the combat system. This is the only way turn-based RPG's should handle. Really, Bravo guys!)
The length of game play I am okay with. I wish there was more areas to explore than what is in episode 1, but it's fine. The charecter development is pretty good and I can see the troubles you had trying to have the comic strip feel into this video game.
I gotta wrap this up because I am going to be leaving work in a minute. So...
CONCLUSION
$20 is fine for the foundation of this game and episode 1. The following episodes better be either:
A.) Twice as deep as episode 1 for $20
-or-
B.) You treat further episodes as modules to a game system. Since the 'Foundation' of the game is already completed and everyone paid the 'tax', subsequent episodes will be priced at $10
Obviously this is just my opinion and quite a few people are angry about this 'price'. But when Castle Crashers comes out for 360 priced at $20, they are going to compare that game to yours and say 'WTF' and if the other episodes are priced at $20, personally for me, I will not purchase them.
Thanks for standing up for the gamer Mike and Jerry. Hopefully you carefully weigh this situation and proceed with caution. You guys *might* sound like hypocrites. With how you guys nail Gamestop all the time for screwing developers and gamers alike, now you'll just be screwing you're fanbase.
Yes, yes, it's *Only* $20. But it's the perceived VALUE of that $20 that's the problem.
Still a HUGE fan of P-A!
Phawx on
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Posts
Be free, go Linux: www.ubuntu.com
I thought I had heard the most ridiculous thing possible on this forum long, long ago, but I was so very very wrong.
Totally off the tracks now: Half-Life2 episodes cost 20$ too, and the engine cost me 60 bucks a couple of years ago. Now in the dimension of the PA: Adventures game this would amount to something much less than $10 per Episode. That's all bullcrap of course but this perception is there.
Because I want to support this I think on that basis 15 dollars per episode is a reasonably high threshold. Considering the market, this appears to be what it boils down to. And at least I'm not pirating.
Be free, go Linux: www.ubuntu.com
I don't think that is a "very very" specific point of criticism when it is the foundation for your argument.
Of course I'm "delusional" but I'd rather say unknowing. How am I supposed to know what a game should cost or rather what is acceptable for what when I can get two completely different things for 20 dollars. I am a college student and to me even 15 bucks is a lot of money let alone full price 50-60 dollar games. If the guys say they can't do it for less than twenty that's that but can't we have an exchange of thoughts on this? Well apparently not.
Be free, go Linux: www.ubuntu.com
With episode 1 we paid for the Meat and Potatoes and the Fluff. It is my opinion that to speed production time, Hothead will continue to use the same 'Meat and Potatoes' and just add different Fluff.
Now if they add considerably MORE Fluff than episode 1, I would have no problem paying $20 again for the following episodes. However, if the try and sell me the same amount of Fluff since the last time without extra Meat and Potatoes, I'm not buying.
The only reason I suggest this is because episodic content to gamer's ears sounds like multiple small purchases. Whereas, compared to how awesome and the scope of, Castle Crashers for the same amount of money (hypothetical) will set the benchmark for these multi-year indie games.
Also, at what point was the game finished and the work begin on playgreenhouse.com and the XBLA DD channels. Because it seems like The Behemoth actually achieved more in the same amount of time plus +1 month and have far less people working on a project.
Are we paying this price because Hothead and PA both need their seperate cut? And than you have to factor in XBLA, they have their cut as well. Last rumor that went around said new plans cut profits down to 35% of gross going to the developers. If that is indeed the case, why couldn't PA/Hothead charge less on their playgreenhouse.com DD channel? Because they control playgreenhouse.com the only thing they are paying for is bandwidth. I have no idea how their DRM is handled on the PC side, but it sounds steam-ish, why couldn't they release this through a .torrent and distribute the cost of bandwidth onto other people?
Who is really to blame for this situation? Is it Microsoft that said, "Listen I know you are getting less profit from us through our channels, but you can't charge less through you channels." Because than it would be clear that it would be in MS's fault for the current pricing structure, which I truly believe *hurts* PA if they continue this pricing scheme WITHOUT adding more.
Believe it or not, I am looking out for all gamer's when I talk about this. I could pay for this game many times over in a single days work.
The entire point of this thread was to point out that most gamers see Penny Arcade and now Yahtzee as bastions to defend us and bring to light what game companies are doing and be our voice. Digital Distribution is the next frontier for media in general and pricing structures NEED to be reworked.
Think about this clearly. If there is NO: Packaging/Shipping/Labor (Physical)/Retailer WHY should we be paying the SAME? I would like nothing more than MORE money going to these developers, provided that it was fair to the developer and the consumer. It's a very rainslick precipice we stand on.
Just saying that a magic number does exist. Much like how I will never buy songs for $1/song through Itunes. Just believe that a system needs to exist to benefits all consumers with digital distribution in mind.
$20 for several hours of fun vs the 1 hour it took me to earn $20 at a minimum wage job.
Given that it is pretty clear that it what was worth the money.
Taking it further, what could I really have spent $20 on, I guess I could have gone to the cinema, it is what a ticket costs if I want something to drink aswell, or I could bought like half a DVD movie, I could have gone to Burger King twice, gotten almost two pizzas, etc, etc, etc. All of this would bring me less fun for the buck so I think it was a good deal.
What other games of this caliber can you get for $20?
How many for less then $20?
Xbox games are $60, and some of the top shelf titles have LESS gameplay per dollar then RSPOD.
And I'm not even going to go into the quality of those $60 games. I don't want to hijack the topic.
15 bucks? 20 bucks?
Are any of you seriously saying that $5 will make or break it for you? You can't even get a cup of coffee for $5, and soon you will fondly remember when gas was ONLY five bucks a gallon.
Cheapskates.
My name is antichris, and I approve this message.
Minimum wage here is $5.25/hr. Anyone here on minimum wage would have to work about as many hours to purchase it as it would take for them to play through the content.
I could do quite a bit for the 20$ all told.
If a person only made minimum wage, I think they should really be bitching about gas prices and worring about paying rent on time. Hopefully a luxury like a computer game, much less a computer, is not even on the top 20 list of worries.
On a side note, the minimum wage in the united stats is now $5.85 and will raise to $6.55 on July 24, 2008.
My name is antichris, and I approve this message.
Both are funny, high quality games. Sam and Max has roughly the same amount of game time as Episode 1 of the PA game.
But Sam and Max is $9 an episode, and you can get the pack of 5 for $35. Season 1 was 6 episodes for $30. Much greater value.
There is no argument to be had here. If you think those games are a better value then you should buy them and not our game. I'm not going to bend over backwards to try and convince someone that the game is worth $20. We think it is, if you don't that's fine.
I did buy those games, and I bought Episode 1. I probably won't be buying the other episodes at that price point unless theres significantly more content.
So? Sam and Max is especially cheap. When I see a very good value, I buy it. I don't proceed to declare everything else a poor one.
I had plans to buy this game from the beginning. I have no idea what you guys plan on doing for the future episodes and this was more or less a friendly debate.
Either way, thanks for telling us that it is, what it is. If I don't feel the second episode is worth it, I won't buy it.
This thread wasn't a complaint from me but trying to draw a point. There are two sides to everything.
Thanks for replying.
Price has always been about competition. Currently there isn't anything to compete with RPoD...on XBLA anyway. People will vote with their wallet. I am a Penny-Arcade fan. I bought episode 1 and I feel like it was totally worth it. How long have I been enjoying PA comics without them seeing anything from me? However, If the worth of the subsequent episodes matches E1 at the same price, I won't buy it.
THIS IS IMPORTANT! I don't matter, I am not special. This is just my opinion and I only have PA's interest in mind. I could be completely wrong. Just saying they need to weigh everything <--- this doesn't matter as Gabe already said they feel E1 is worth $20 and I am inclined to agree.
I have faith that they will do what is fair.
I keep on editing this thing.
It's not that Sam n' Max is especially cheap. It has, TO SOME people, a better perceived value.
Then, as Gabe said, spend your money on Sam and Max. I'll be over here stalking the HotHead guys until they release PA Episode 2...
His minimum wage is higher, but many of his costs (if not most) are also MUCH higher than they would be in the US. Overall, it sorta evens out.
I'm with you!
I am so sick of this 20$ bullshit, it's $20 you fucking mongoloid.
it shows quality writing, beautiful gameplay, enjoyable combat mechanics and several other adjectives applied to nouns.
edit: feel free to try and assert that this was not what you meant to do/say if you wish to phawx, but it is exactly how you appear
back on topic:
if the episodes after this one have the same quality of writing and the same length, i have no problem buying each for twenty dollars, this is a great game, highly enjoyable, and i do not feel that releasing a second episode of this same caliber at the same price would be a ripoff.
I think that making more episodes will be slightly more complicated than copying some new textures into a folder. Yes they already have their engine but does this mean that every game that uses the Unreal engine should be $10? There is a lot to do, even with an existing engine.
I don't think this whole "they already made the engine, so they better not skimp on extra-engine matter" arguement is very sound. First of all, they'll fix the engine; things are broken. Second of all, they only have 4 months to make the second one, bearing in mind the first one took 4 years. Thirdly, everyone who bought it and complained about it obviously thought the price was fair, so we know they can accurately appraise their own product, right?
Ergo(!), the next one will either be:
a) Adequately improved in gameplay/replayability,
b) Appropriately expanded in length/depth,
c) A good deal longer than 4 months away,
or
d) Accordingly adjusted in price.
I can see someone like Mr Khoo setting the price at $17 or something just to tip the scales of indecision, and I'd agree with them for doing that, but I'd happily pay $20 again just to experience their second attempt. I love a good laugh and I'm all for the gamer, but in the end, if PA don't make money at their game franchise, it will fold, along with any ideals they uphold through it. Right?
I agree with you, that the game is fair at $20. I think the interesting conversation is, if Ep 2 has NO SIGNIFICANT engine/gameplay upgrades, will it still cost the full 20 dollars? It's like, will the Ep 2, be a full sequal, or an expansion pack? Expansion packs usually don't totally overhaul the game engine, they just add lots of new bells and whistles, a new story, etc, and the rarely cost as much as the original purchase did.
Or will it contain a fully new gameplay experience?
I would think that the forthcoming episodes would deserve to be more in the 12-15 dollar range. I'll assume that they'll have the same engine, probably with some tweaks (ie, the difficulty scaling, probably the most true complaint I've heard) but still, the same system. That's ok, I LIKED the gameplay system, it was fun. But fighting battles with the same system and getting a new plot isn't worth the same price as the original game was, and I think that was the point.
Would I still buy it? Probably, yeah. But to follow the pattern, the next one should be cheaper probably unless it really is a complete and total overhaul of the gameplay.
The price I paid for this game was not solely for the enjoyment I gleaned from it;
It was also an investment into future Hothead/PA games, and I suppose in some small way digital distribution as a whole.
As far as changes for the next episode, I believe length and some slight tuning of the engine relevant to feedback is all that's needed. I'll play an 80 hour RPG that has the same battle system all game. Why does this one have to change drastically after only 5-6 hours? I like it.
On a side note, is there an official way to leave criticism/feedback? I can't imagine Hothead and PA combing through every thread on the Hothead/PA/Greenhouse forums for feedback.
I didn't even think about the price. I'd have paid thirty. Why are you lot debating when there IS no debate? In olden times I finished Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past in a day, and I paid a whole lot more for that - which didn't even involve killing clowns and mimes.
I agree 100%. I take every opportunity, within my limited financial means, to endorse both digital distribution and PA, among other things.
If I was one of the parties involved I would have a person doing just that, especially for a first time venture like this one.
(Speaking of which: Hi there official post ready guy(s), gal(s), and moderator(s)! , take a second and massage your tired eyes on me)
My name is antichris, and I approve this message.
Why is everyone so nitpicky about what I wrote? The point I was trying to make is that it "feels" like copying new textures for $20 to ME ... me in front of my computer watching the download bar go up. Of course I know that on the other side there is lots of work from many different people involved and I appreciate that. But in the end I have to choose between $20 clicks all the time and I can't quite bother with how much work was involved or why it is like that. I'll even go a step further and say If I knew how much work was involved in different types of games, I probably would buy much less because I could compare apples and oranges. Right now I gotta take the leap and just get something and hope it's good and lots of work was involved.
The other thing is: This is sort of a fanbase driven project at least that is what it looks like to me. This game is made from Penny Arcade for Penny Arcade fans. And I can tell you guys are really into it hence everyone shouting "I'd gladly pay more". I totally dig this and I think it's fantastic what a great fan crowd this is around here but then there are people like me that don't even like Penny Arcade webcomic that much ... (silence falls over the crowd -I'm getting banned for this).
I bought the game mainly out of curiosity and because I loved that they treated Linux like a viable platform (which it is). Now here I am, stuck with a game that I've finished, that I enjoyed greatly and that I still didn't feel perfectly satisfied with. That's why I wrote an extensive post about what I would like to see (just to improve things overall) and it seems this got some good reception. Just understand this: To me Gabe and Tycho are just two guys in a comic (*gasp*) I don't know anything about them and all I ever really saw was in that game. Therefore it's definitely worth $20 dollars. I don't know If I'd pay it again for a second episode but probably yes. Would I prefer to pay less? Of course! Why wouldn't I?
But get this too: I don't have any "reason" to buy this game in the classic sense like PA fans do. I still did and what I got was good, all I'm saying is that this game can be made into something that is very very enjoyable for people who don't even know the comic or don't even care. And then you'll have me in the "I'd pay thirty"-zone right with you. For you the fact that your heroes are in a game now is worth the extra money. To me, not so much but I'd pay it again for the cutscenes and improved combat. Like I wrote in that other post, with some work this could transcend the Penny Arcade fan realm easily because the combat is truly fun and enjoyable and for everyone who is not a "fan" in the classic sense this means much more (at least to me it does -like I said love the artwork and dialog but it's not as important to me as it is to you guys).
Since I can't explain my point properly w/o writing a book on price perception and fan devotion this will probably just lead to some more heat.
Be free, go Linux: www.ubuntu.com
Belruel,
I do advise them what I believe to be right, but I clearly said in my previous post that I can be completely wrong. I really fucking hate repeating myself, it's surely not getting the point across. Especially with myopic, pretentious and elitist folks such as yourself. Is the air so thin way up there on your throne that its affecting your brain? Have you ever thought about taking a step down and breath in some perspective?
http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2008/05/19/xbla-this-week-penny-arcade-adventures/
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/05/14/penny-arcade-adventures-also-coming-to-pc-next-week/
http://majornelson.com/archive/2008/05/21/arcade-penny-arcade-episode-1.aspx
Look at all the comments. Take a step back and try to think where they are coming from.
Personally I still think 20 bucks is dirt cheap for what's essentially an extension of the free content we've been getting for ten years (not to mention a laugh a minute; normally I'd say money can't buy that kind of entertainment), and I would gladly pay another twenty for the exact same quality material, much less something even better.
More cut scenes and more puzzles were gonna be my top two suggestions for future installments, so I'm excited already.