Come to think of it, he already stopped all that book crap, right? When PA first hired him? So is this like, Salesinator 2? Or S3: Judgement Day? What I'm asking is, are PA's children in danger of bankruptcy, too?
Jazmeister on
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Goose!That's me, honeyShow me the way home, honeyRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
I've said it in the finished it thread, but its worth repeating I think: Anyone complaining about paying 20 dollars for a video game must really get pissed when they spend around and sometimes more than that buying a dvd. Because all they'll come away with is half the enjoyment time, and zero interactivity. And nobody in this world can tell me with a straight face that they haven't purchased a movie before in their life (without getting infracted).
Episode 1 cost over a million dollars, episode two is around half of that. Anyone who uses that to try and argue that episode two should cost ten dollars needs to be shot. Source for the numbers is the Forbes article on episodic gaming from April.
When they interviewed me for that article, I wouldn't tell her how much the game cost to make, but she asked "well, can i say it's over a million dollars?" and I replied with "sure," which sadly people are interpreting as "the game cost a million dollars to make."
For the record, development costs were much much greater than this.
Would it be accurate to say that Ep.1 will probably lose money, but you guys are planning on making it up on the backend with Episodes 2-4?
Yes, this is accurate.
As far as having everyone help us sell it, yeah, obviously every little bit helps. The entire model is a huge experiment for the industry that a few players like Telltale and us are taking part in... independent, no publisher support, figuring out our own channel... our bet was that the model is viable, but there's still a huge chance it's not.
I'd be very interested, and I suspect so would the entire industry and all it entails, to know how the Greenhouse sales are going. Not so much for a "wow, they made so much cash" but more "okay, is this thing viable, what can the industry learn from this, etc" point of view.
Compared to another Episodic game series, Sam and Max, from Telltale games, its pretty poor value.
Both are funny, high quality games. Sam and Max has roughly the same amount of game time as Episode 1 of the PA game.
But Sam and Max is $9 an episode, and you can get the pack of 5 for $35. Season 1 was 6 episodes for $30. Much greater value.
There is no argument to be had here. If you think those games are a better value then you should buy them and not our game. I'm not going to bend over backwards to try and convince someone that the game is worth $20. We think it is, if you don't that's fine.
I'd argue against actually, I'm a really big fan of Sam and Max, read the comics, watched all the episodes of the animated series and loved the old Lucasarts game. All that said I was pretty disappointed with the new games, finished the first episode, bought the second as well but haven't really bothered to play through it.
The PA game on the other hand may be twice as expensive, but even just the demo of Rainslick is more fun than the Sam and Max episodes. The production value is higher imo, it's better written and the style is far cooler.
I'll gladly pay $20 per episode and I hope you'll make lots of them. They should hire you guys to make the next Sam and Max games imo.
I think the second episode is MUCH better. More/better cut scenes, some awesome new characters,more puzzles,some really amazing boss fights, really cool new zones. We learned a ton with Episode 1. They will only get better from here.
I have no idea how their DRM is handled on the PC side, but it sounds steam-ish, why couldn't they release this through a .torrent and distribute the cost of bandwidth onto other people?
I'm not really asking why the price/DRM issue. My question is why not a .torrent? Pulling down such a large file at such a slow speed due to network congestion is painful. Plus I know that the server it's hosted on can do more, since at work I can pull this down at 1MB/sec, but at home it's 22kb/sec (yes, that's a drop in units there).
A torrent not only spreads the bandwidth, but also works around network congestion. Then maybe I could have played this weekend, instead of not finishing my download until I have to go to work today.
Anything over 100MB should be a .torrent as well as a direct download. Think of it as a content accelerator for large files, not just as a means to save bandwidth. Not everyone can afford, or needs to use Akamai. The PA community can combine their bandwidth to get the demo out there better, faster, shorter.
The main problem with torrents is then you then have to tech support it. Believe or not, there are many people out there who a) are not in a position to download torrents or b) do not know how to and do not possess the technical knowledge or patience to get it to work without a lot of technical support. They will demand to know why people who use torrents are getting a faster download than they are if/when you do manage to get users downloading from the torrent quickly.
You can, of course, go for a hybrid torrent/HTTP solution, but none of the ones I have seen have been successful in a) alleviating enough of the HTTP load on webservers to make it worthwhile or b) be a true turn-key solution for the technically challenged.
Initial seeding also tends to be quite slow, and would lead most users to hit the HTTP download anyway considering bandwidth from the swarm to you would ebb and flow dramatically for a significant period.
You'd also need to setup a separate connection to run the seed, and maintain a new set of hardware to do so if you wanted to get it out there as quickly and effectively as possible. It's a fair investment in time and infrastructure.
Of course I'm sure there's a solution out there that solves these issues, but they are the problems I have seen for companies which have tried using torrents to solve their bandwidth problems.
My only problem with the 20 dollars is going to be related to the amount of episodes. If there's 3 episodes for the "complete" game, then that's 60 bucks. Full game cost right there. I'm okay with that.
However, if there's 5 or even 6 episodes, and each one is 20 bucks, then I have a huge issue. You're then paying 100/120 bucks for the complete game. Which is a total rip off.
My only problem with the 20 dollars is going to be related to the amount of episodes. If there's 3 episodes for the "complete" game, then that's 60 bucks. Full game cost right there. I'm okay with that.
However, if there's 5 or even 6 episodes, and each one is 20 bucks, then I have a huge issue. You're then paying 100/120 bucks for the complete game. Which is a total rip off.
Ya, this doesn't really make sense. You know, regardless of the number of episodes each episode will probably have similar lengths. This means that, no matter how many episodes you buy, you are still geint x # of entertainment minutes/dollar spent.
I like the loss-leader approach to episode 1 sales. 20 bucks was just fine for me. I had my issues with the DRM, but I've come to terms thanks to the "we're not dicks" promise by Hothead.
I see Gabe posted some initial sales figures, which I assume are XBLA only.
How does this compare to Greenhouse sales?
By my math, if you sold 16.5k copies, assuming you got the standard 70/30 split from MS, you made about $231,000. Gabe says he's happy with that, but it sounds kind of low to me, considering you spent "much more than a million dollars" developing it.
I have no doubt thsi thing will eventually make you some money, though. The best part of digital distribution and episodic format is the re-release potential. When episode 2 or 3 is imminent, you do a little price drop down to like 10-15 bucks for old episodes, and scrape up a bunch of new sales. Then once all 4 are done you collect it into a box and sell it on store shelves, hitting up the customers who refuse to buy things unless they have a physical nature.
It's a long term strategy, but I agree that it certainly looks viable.
Factoid on
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jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
Well yeah if you skipped 60% of the content then yes you could beat Mass Effect in 8 hours.
Which of course, to me is silly. Why skip 60% of the content (I suspect your point was that people would NOT skip 60%). Speaking of money, content and Mass Effect: New content was 500 points. It was listed as 90 minutes (I bet most people really got about 60 minutes out of it). Doing the math, 90 minutes at 500 pts. means to be equal, PA espisode one would have to last you 6 hours. Is it worth it? Decide for yourself. I loved Mass Effect but have not downloaded the new content. I did download PA adventures and am looking forward for episode two. I would guess I spent 8 hours on episode one. I had two housemates who watched me play as though they were watching a movie. They loved it just as much as I did. $20 for 3 people to have 8 hours of enjoyment. In my book, bargain.
Decide for yourself what you would and would not spend $20 on. Two movie tickets? Not me.
A new DVD? Not me.
1/3 a case of paintballs? Yes I would.
PA episode two? Yup.
I am glad that, so far, this debate of personal options have stayed so civil. Let's keep it up.
jefe414 on
Xbox Live: Jefe414
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Captain ElevenThe last card is a kronkRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
I have no problem paying $20 per episode. Let's do the math, assuming 4 episodes and an average of 7 hours to play through each episode. That comes out to a total of 28 hours. If you pay $80 total for all 4 episodes, that's roughly $2.86 per hour.
That's a fucking great value. How much does it cost to see a movie? Or to buy a DVD? Or go to a sporting event?
If you have a problem with paying $2.86 per hour for PAA, you don't like fun,
Heavenly Sword is a 'complete' game at $60, but many people rail against its value due to its length.
If each piece of content is worth $20, if they suddenly produce more than $60 worth of content (3 episodes) it magically becomes a rip off?
Come again?
As mentioned, you can skip 60% of Mass Effect and finish the game in around 8 hours. That's not really completeing it. That's just rushing to the end.
Heavenly Sword, previously mentioned Max Payne, etc. I do consider rip offs. Pretty graphics and a DVD case don't make up for the lack of content.
It's tough to explain further than I already did, but I guess what I'm getting at is that when it's all said and done I want to feel like my money was worth it over all. I'm generally opposed to episodic releases in general though, so my being biased is probably coming into play.
I have no problem paying $20 per episode. Let's do the math, assuming 4 episodes and an average of 7 hours to play through each episode. That comes out to a total of 28 hours. If you pay $80 total for all 4 episodes, that's roughly $2.86 per hour.
That's a fucking great value. How much does it cost to see a movie? Or to buy a DVD? Or go to a sporting event?
If you have a problem with paying $2.86 per hour for PAA, you don't like fun,
Comparing videogaming to the other industries is just unfair. But I'll play your game...(price/hours = price per hour) and 60 dollars will be the control for the off-the-shelf games
I've gotten about 40 hours out of GTAIV so...$1.5 per hour
I've played ~100 games of Madden08, at 40 minutes a game, that's 60 hours....$1 ph
Fight Night Round 3: Probably 25 hours out of me, so $2.4 ph
Need for Speed Carbon I played for roughly 15., so $4 ph
Forza Motorsport 2 is again around 25 hours, so $2.4 ph again
Street Fighter II for 10 bucks has probably seen 20 hours of play, so 50c ph.
On the opposite end of my arcade games, Mortal Kombat 3 is lucky to have seen 2 hours of play, so $5 ph.
These are just a couple games I own, throw in a game like Kingdom Hearts II where I played through it twice (one being 100% complete) and spent 40 bucks on it and not 60, and the numbers drop substantially.
And of course, these numbers are based on my own estimates of play times so they vary for everyone, but I guess my point is that $2.86ph is a tad on the high side.
But despite my concerns over the price, they are fun and enjoyable games. I played through Episode 1 twice, mostly to finish achievements, and I still had fun the second time around. And Fun is what gaming is all about.
I'm surprised you call it a "problem", if you don't like the price point, don't pay for it. Really though it seems to be more an issue with Microsoft's arcane points system. I've never liked the fact that they've worked so hard to obscure actual value. It's not really about worth to me, I've always been a fan of PA and want to support their endeavors. The fact that their endeavor is a game stunning in appearance and streamlined for a great gameplay experience is just icing on the cake. Though I do wish they would refine the blocking mechanism just a little bit.
I have no problem paying $20 per episode. Let's do the math, assuming 4 episodes and an average of 7 hours to play through each episode. That comes out to a total of 28 hours. If you pay $80 total for all 4 episodes, that's roughly $2.86 per hour.
That's a fucking great value. How much does it cost to see a movie? Or to buy a DVD? Or go to a sporting event?
If you have a problem with paying $2.86 per hour for PAA, you don't like fun,
Comparing videogaming to the other industries is just unfair. But I'll play your game...(price/hours = price per hour) and 60 dollars will be the control for the off-the-shelf games
I've gotten about 40 hours out of GTAIV so...$1.5 per hour
I've played ~100 games of Madden08, at 40 minutes a game, that's 60 hours....$1 ph
Fight Night Round 3: Probably 25 hours out of me, so $2.4 ph
Need for Speed Carbon I played for roughly 15., so $4 ph
Forza Motorsport 2 is again around 25 hours, so $2.4 ph again
Street Fighter II for 10 bucks has probably seen 20 hours of play, so 50c ph.
On the opposite end of my arcade games, Mortal Kombat 3 is lucky to have seen 2 hours of play, so $5 ph.
These are just a couple games I own, throw in a game like Kingdom Hearts II where I played through it twice (one being 100% complete) and spent 40 bucks on it and not 60, and the numbers drop substantially.
And of course, these numbers are based on my own estimates of play times so they vary for everyone, but I guess my point is that $2.86ph is a tad on the high side.
But despite my concerns over the price, they are fun and enjoyable games. I played through Episode 1 twice, mostly to finish achievements, and I still had fun the second time around. And Fun is what gaming is all about.
ahahaha fighting games and racing games are totally different beasts than a turn based dialogue driven rpg.
compare the hourly fun of rspod to how much time you spent seeing brand new content in those games, and it might be more accurate. but then its still an unfair assessment because games like that are meant to be played over and over.
The Sam and Max games are a poor comparison. I waltzed through episodes three and four of Season one yesterday in less than two and a half hours. There's next to zero replay value in them after you've played through them, other than for the sake of nostalgia - which, by rights should only come after a three year hiatus from not playing the game or it needs to be hand delivered by Adrian Veidt.
Reasonably speaking, you can get Sam and Max (all of them) for $9.95 on GameTap. Turn up the good, turn down the suck and you should be able to beat all current episodes in less than a week. Go do that.
Then: don't buy a soda per day for two weeks. Dig around the couch for some extra change and buy PAA. Srsly.
If they make Episodes 2 and 3, each at the same time allotment, and the same price point, that is 15 hours of gameplay for $60. That puts it pretty square with most non sports or simulation games really.
Now I do hope they dont get any shorter, because then I will feel robbed. I mean I *need* the game to be longer! I was so sad when Episode 1 ended because, I wanted to play more! I was ready to punch some more gods!!! It was awesomely written, someone needs a lightening bolt in their Buisness Card for the writing imo!
On the graphics, all I can say is my wife said "wow that is a very pretty game" while watching me play. She doesnt read PA, and she was playing C&C 3 while she was looking at my screen. I think I got 10 minutes of gameplay from just trying to breath while laughing at the Fruit Fucker animations, regular and distracted via Orange.
Anyhow that was a home run for me. I think the $20 is right on the mark for the entertainment you get from the game. Are there games with ore hours of play per dollar? Sure. Hell I could go buy War and Peace and read that instead of playing games at all, theres some value. However I dont think Episode 1 in any way fails to give you a great entertainment experience for your dollar. I would love to see another 12 episodes 5-8 hours in length and at $20 I will be setting aside that money every time.
My only question is, dear god when is the next one due!?!?
mordenkhai on
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Judge-ZTeacher, for Great JusticeUpstate NYRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
For those of you for whom $20 for an episodic game, even a gem like this one, is an insurmountable psychological barrier (or if you're a poor student and need to save every possible ducat), I may have a temporary solution.
Target is selling 1600 point 360 cards for $15, until the end of this week. You get the game for $15, and the PA and Hothead crews get full credit for selling another copy on marketplace, because to MS, points is points.
The game was easily worth $20 to me. The amount of play time was about the same as COD 4's single player campaign was for me, and who wouldn't have paid $20 for that? (And yes, I know COD had significantly fancier production values, but we're not all about the bells and whistles here, are we? Look how many people around here still play rogue-likes!) Hell, having an in-game avatar that actually looked a bit like me was worth a few bucks right there! But I have disposable income. I know there are people hemming and hawing over the price, and maybe this will be enough to push them into a purchase - as Khoo said, anything we can do to sell a few more copies helps!
Just finished, even though it only took 6 hours I would place it at 20 bucks.
GalactusGo on
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
I think being a self-sustaining adult puts this in perspective. Recently I have bought these things for the price of Episode One:
A half tank of gas
Lunch with my wife
A Metrocard
A tshirt
Half a pair of shoes
My dry cleaning
Tickets to Indy 4
A couple of paperbacks
For the price of the whole damn series, at $20 a pop, I have recently bought:
Dinner with friends
A bag
My electric bill
Half of my business electric bill
That said, $20 for this game is a no-brainer. $80 for the whole series over the course of a year is a given. I'd happily pay $30 per installment. Another poster put it perfectly, that this game is targeted at a VERY specific demographic that I fit into (PA Fans). I think that earns my cash, no questions asked.
minor incident on
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
It's $20. One-fifth of a full price game. Seriously. 5 of these or a full price game. It's very reasonable. Most $20 books don't last me as long as this game did.
A lot of places on this very planet, I for certain know of nations in South America, Europe and Australia where games can run over $100 so this is not a foreign concept to a lot of us.
I'm coming in late here, and I've not yet finished Episode 1, but I am astounded that somebody thought their twenty dollars was paying for a game engine rather than the game Hothead and PA made with it. When you buy HL2 it is not a given that any other Source engine game is going to be cheaper because you already bought one. That's something like wanting to pay half price on a movie because you already bought another movie filmed on the same camera.
Now, if you really want to pay for a game engine, you may need to go to the bank because the going rate for, say, the Source engine is several hundred thousand dollars.
All of you whining about paying 20 bucks really just disgusts me. This isn't sony or microsoft here trying rip you off or scam you into thinking a game is more than it actually is with flashy marketing schemes it's freaking Mike and Jerry for gods sake.
They go to the trouble of creating a game for their fans and due to the scope of the project they break it down into multiple episodes. It goes without saying that each episode is going to be greater than the one that came before it and I think Episode One was a damn good start all things considered.
Twenty Dollars is only a "problem" if you're a cheap son of a bitch. I bought the game, finished it on my day off and I loved it. Some of you are acting like paying 20 bucks for this game would put you in dire financial straits and if this is the case then you probably shouldn't be wasting money on any videogames at all.
The 20 dollar problem? Why do people feel there is a problem? Do they not have 20 dollars? THAT's a genuine problem, and one that should involve them worrying about more important things then the PA game. Do they not want to pay 20 dollars for a PA game? If so, then I suppose they don't feel it's worth it. If they don't feel it's worth it, then there should be no problem, because they don't really like it that much. I don't think that diamond encrusted scepters are worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars they cost - I mean, I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of one. It just sits there. Since I don't want it, I don't complain about the price. Who fucking cares? I DON'T THINK ITS WORTH BUYING. NO PROBLEM HERE. I mean, if someone said, "Hey, I've got this diamond encrusted scepter that I'm not really enjoying right no, do you want to borrow it for awhile?" I'd probably take it - but it's no skin off my back. I'm perfectly happy without it.
Now look, if you don't feel that the PA game is worth fucking TWENTY DOLLARS, then you just don't like it that much. I mean, would you like minimum 6 hours of funny RPG/adventure gameplay? Would you like it as much as two lunches out at Wendy's? Would you like it as much as a new t-shirt? How about two hermit crabs? There is literally a TON OF DIFFERENT SHIT you could use that 20 dollars to buy. If so many fucking things are ahead of the PA game that you don't have 20 dollars left to buy it, then guess what YOU CHOSE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU LIKED BETTER. So your life is now full of SHIT THAT YOU LIKE BETTER THAN THE PA GAME. Why are you complaining? Do you wish you had more money? So do I. I wish I could buy everything that I even like just a little bit. But your inability to buy everything that you like even a little bit is hardly a COMPLAINT AGAINST THE PA GAME.
If you say "it doesn't have 20 dollars worth of VALUE to it" you are just saying that you don't like it that much. The "value" you get for your money is not measured against an absolute standard - you get to decide how much value you got for your money based on how much you like what you bought. So saying "it's not worth 20 dollars" translates in to "I don't think it's worth 20 dollars" which means "I don't like it as much as other things I can buy for 20 dollars" and since we're talking about TWENTY FUCKING DOLLARS HERE, you clearly just don't like the game that much.
So all those people who don't like the game, just don't buy it. Do you go on the Dolche and Gabana forums to tell them how you wouldn't pay as much as they're asking for their clothes, because you don't like clothes that much? I don't know, maybe you do - but you shouldn't. I'm sure people who really enjoy clothes will point out to you that to them the expensive clothes they're buying are totally priced at the right "value" for them. You're just complaining for the sake of complaining. YOU DON'T LIKE CLOTHES THAT MUCH. Do you go to art auctions and complain loudly that there's no way you'd pay 10 million for that Picasso because you don't like it very much? WHY COMPLAIN - YOU DON'T LIKE IT AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT. For all those people who are genuinely poor, direct complaints to your government or something, rather than the PA forums. There are bigger problems here than with the pricing of a video game.
I'm sorry to rant here, but I can't believe the number of people who are upset with the price. There may be legitimate issues to tackle with pricing (such as the parity for Xbox and PC pricing), but that it is 20 dollars is not a reasonable complaint.
I've finished it and although it wasn't OMG BEST GAEM EVAR!!!11 it was well worth $20.
The argument that "I have paid for the engine now, next time I just want to pay for the content" is particularily stupid IMO. That's usually not the way it works. When they drew up the budget for this game I'm pretty sure they calculated that the cost of creating the game engine was to be split and recuperated from the price of all four episodes.
I agree it was worth $20 bucks but I don't agree that the next couple episodes should be 20 bucks
Especially if say it's 4 episodes and they are all 20 bucks than that's at least 20 bucks more expensive than it should be for a full game
That's the biggest issue I have for it, I just think that overall if each episode is 20 bucks than the package is more expensive than it should be for the full package.
I'm sorry to rant here, but I can't believe the number of people who are upset with the price. There may be legitimate issues to tackle with pricing (such as the parity for Xbox and PC pricing), but that it is 20 dollars is not a reasonable complaint.
Well Your Wrong the price is a reasonable thing to complain about and your ranting is just nonsense especially when the price is fine with being 20 but it's the overall pricing of all the episodes that should be more of a concern and I don't care if it's Penny Arcade or not when it's unresonable pricing than it's unreasonable pricing
Now if the rest of the episodes are say 15 bucks than I can say that's not that bad of a deal but if they all are 20 than that's definitely not worth it overall.
I agree it was worth $20 bucks but I don't agree that the next couple episodes should be 20 bucks
Especially if say it's 4 episodes and they are all 20 bucks than that's at least 20 bucks more expensive than it should be for a full game
That's the biggest issue I have for it, I just think that overall if each episode is 20 bucks than the package is more expensive than it should be for the full package.
It isn't a game split up into 4 parts. It's four episodic games with an overarching storyline. This stupid "Oh but when you put it all together, it's more expensive than a game I buy on the shelves" idea uses some really twisted logic. If the game is fun, and each episode is value for money, having four episodes suddenly makes it not value for money?
What happens if, as Gabe says, episodes 2-4 have more content, more puzzles, more everything? "Oh, but when you put the prices together it's more than a boxed game."
It sounds like you just have a hardon against the episodic game format and you're trying to shove it into your mental "off the shelf" box.
What about if you take two games, like Doom 3, Doom 3:RE, and Quake 4 (lol 3 games then dicks), and combine their prices?
I'm not paying that much for just the same shit that's been messed around with and some writing tacked on!
...Oh wait, actually, I did. And I didn't complain, and it put me about £150 out of pocket. Which is "296.84" USD according to google exchange (using exact conversion for approximate amounts, ftw). Why?
It just took longer between eps Who cares that the story was different? Did you buy that for the story? Well, this time, you are, right? And it's going to be awesome. I feel like I'm playing CoC with Jerry. I'll buy anything they put out that I can download and play. A PA Pong reskin. PA Q3 models. It's not cause I'm a fanboy, I just trust their creative direction.
Same reason I didn't panic when I heard that Peter Jackson was doing King Kong. I thought, okay, he'll take care of it. He won't be afraid to change what he needs to, and it'll still feel like King Kong. I trust the PA brand, I know it'll be shit hot whatever it spits out.
In this thread, and bunch of people brag about how they have no real life responsibilities and/or are amazingly wealthy. In the meanwhile, for we mere normal humans, the game is more expensive than most games with similar quality and play length.
If you take Any Random Game You Enjoyed, it was less expensive than the Rain Slick series will be, and likely had more replayability and depth.
This stupid "Oh but when you put it all together, it's more expensive than a game I buy on the shelves" idea uses some really twisted logic. If the game is fun, and each episode is value for money, having four episodes suddenly makes it not value for money?
No. The argument is that each episode is not worth $20. The combining of them is just to show that a ~30 hour game with no replayability would cost $80. It's really not hard to understand.
Posts
Can....
Can I buy it.... twice?
The PA game on the other hand may be twice as expensive, but even just the demo of Rainslick is more fun than the Sam and Max episodes. The production value is higher imo, it's better written and the style is far cooler.
I'll gladly pay $20 per episode and I hope you'll make lots of them. They should hire you guys to make the next Sam and Max games imo.
Sounds great!
I'm not really asking why the price/DRM issue. My question is why not a .torrent? Pulling down such a large file at such a slow speed due to network congestion is painful. Plus I know that the server it's hosted on can do more, since at work I can pull this down at 1MB/sec, but at home it's 22kb/sec (yes, that's a drop in units there).
A torrent not only spreads the bandwidth, but also works around network congestion. Then maybe I could have played this weekend, instead of not finishing my download until I have to go to work today.
Anything over 100MB should be a .torrent as well as a direct download. Think of it as a content accelerator for large files, not just as a means to save bandwidth. Not everyone can afford, or needs to use Akamai. The PA community can combine their bandwidth to get the demo out there better, faster, shorter.
You can, of course, go for a hybrid torrent/HTTP solution, but none of the ones I have seen have been successful in a) alleviating enough of the HTTP load on webservers to make it worthwhile or b) be a true turn-key solution for the technically challenged.
Initial seeding also tends to be quite slow, and would lead most users to hit the HTTP download anyway considering bandwidth from the swarm to you would ebb and flow dramatically for a significant period.
You'd also need to setup a separate connection to run the seed, and maintain a new set of hardware to do so if you wanted to get it out there as quickly and effectively as possible. It's a fair investment in time and infrastructure.
Of course I'm sure there's a solution out there that solves these issues, but they are the problems I have seen for companies which have tried using torrents to solve their bandwidth problems.
However, if there's 5 or even 6 episodes, and each one is 20 bucks, then I have a huge issue. You're then paying 100/120 bucks for the complete game. Which is a total rip off.
Heavenly Sword is a 'complete' game at $60, but many people rail against its value due to its length.
If each piece of content is worth $20, if they suddenly produce more than $60 worth of content (3 episodes) it magically becomes a rip off?
Come again?
Ya, this doesn't really make sense. You know, regardless of the number of episodes each episode will probably have similar lengths. This means that, no matter how many episodes you buy, you are still geint x # of entertainment minutes/dollar spent.
I see Gabe posted some initial sales figures, which I assume are XBLA only.
How does this compare to Greenhouse sales?
By my math, if you sold 16.5k copies, assuming you got the standard 70/30 split from MS, you made about $231,000. Gabe says he's happy with that, but it sounds kind of low to me, considering you spent "much more than a million dollars" developing it.
I have no doubt thsi thing will eventually make you some money, though. The best part of digital distribution and episodic format is the re-release potential. When episode 2 or 3 is imminent, you do a little price drop down to like 10-15 bucks for old episodes, and scrape up a bunch of new sales. Then once all 4 are done you collect it into a box and sell it on store shelves, hitting up the customers who refuse to buy things unless they have a physical nature.
It's a long term strategy, but I agree that it certainly looks viable.
Decide for yourself what you would and would not spend $20 on. Two movie tickets? Not me.
A new DVD? Not me.
1/3 a case of paintballs? Yes I would.
PA episode two? Yup.
I am glad that, so far, this debate of personal options have stayed so civil. Let's keep it up.
That's a fucking great value. How much does it cost to see a movie? Or to buy a DVD? Or go to a sporting event?
If you have a problem with paying $2.86 per hour for PAA, you don't like fun,
As mentioned, you can skip 60% of Mass Effect and finish the game in around 8 hours. That's not really completeing it. That's just rushing to the end.
Heavenly Sword, previously mentioned Max Payne, etc. I do consider rip offs. Pretty graphics and a DVD case don't make up for the lack of content.
It's tough to explain further than I already did, but I guess what I'm getting at is that when it's all said and done I want to feel like my money was worth it over all. I'm generally opposed to episodic releases in general though, so my being biased is probably coming into play.
Comparing videogaming to the other industries is just unfair. But I'll play your game...(price/hours = price per hour) and 60 dollars will be the control for the off-the-shelf games
I've gotten about 40 hours out of GTAIV so...$1.5 per hour
I've played ~100 games of Madden08, at 40 minutes a game, that's 60 hours....$1 ph
Fight Night Round 3: Probably 25 hours out of me, so $2.4 ph
Need for Speed Carbon I played for roughly 15., so $4 ph
Forza Motorsport 2 is again around 25 hours, so $2.4 ph again
Street Fighter II for 10 bucks has probably seen 20 hours of play, so 50c ph.
On the opposite end of my arcade games, Mortal Kombat 3 is lucky to have seen 2 hours of play, so $5 ph.
These are just a couple games I own, throw in a game like Kingdom Hearts II where I played through it twice (one being 100% complete) and spent 40 bucks on it and not 60, and the numbers drop substantially.
And of course, these numbers are based on my own estimates of play times so they vary for everyone, but I guess my point is that $2.86ph is a tad on the high side.
But despite my concerns over the price, they are fun and enjoyable games. I played through Episode 1 twice, mostly to finish achievements, and I still had fun the second time around. And Fun is what gaming is all about.
ahahaha fighting games and racing games are totally different beasts than a turn based dialogue driven rpg.
compare the hourly fun of rspod to how much time you spent seeing brand new content in those games, and it might be more accurate. but then its still an unfair assessment because games like that are meant to be played over and over.
Reasonably speaking, you can get Sam and Max (all of them) for $9.95 on GameTap. Turn up the good, turn down the suck and you should be able to beat all current episodes in less than a week. Go do that.
Then: don't buy a soda per day for two weeks. Dig around the couch for some extra change and buy PAA. Srsly.
If they make Episodes 2 and 3, each at the same time allotment, and the same price point, that is 15 hours of gameplay for $60. That puts it pretty square with most non sports or simulation games really.
Now I do hope they dont get any shorter, because then I will feel robbed. I mean I *need* the game to be longer! I was so sad when Episode 1 ended because, I wanted to play more! I was ready to punch some more gods!!! It was awesomely written, someone needs a lightening bolt in their Buisness Card for the writing imo!
On the graphics, all I can say is my wife said "wow that is a very pretty game" while watching me play. She doesnt read PA, and she was playing C&C 3 while she was looking at my screen. I think I got 10 minutes of gameplay from just trying to breath while laughing at the Fruit Fucker animations, regular and distracted via Orange.
Anyhow that was a home run for me. I think the $20 is right on the mark for the entertainment you get from the game. Are there games with ore hours of play per dollar? Sure. Hell I could go buy War and Peace and read that instead of playing games at all, theres some value. However I dont think Episode 1 in any way fails to give you a great entertainment experience for your dollar. I would love to see another 12 episodes 5-8 hours in length and at $20 I will be setting aside that money every time.
My only question is, dear god when is the next one due!?!?
Target is selling 1600 point 360 cards for $15, until the end of this week. You get the game for $15, and the PA and Hothead crews get full credit for selling another copy on marketplace, because to MS, points is points.
The game was easily worth $20 to me. The amount of play time was about the same as COD 4's single player campaign was for me, and who wouldn't have paid $20 for that? (And yes, I know COD had significantly fancier production values, but we're not all about the bells and whistles here, are we? Look how many people around here still play rogue-likes!) Hell, having an in-game avatar that actually looked a bit like me was worth a few bucks right there! But I have disposable income. I know there are people hemming and hawing over the price, and maybe this will be enough to push them into a purchase - as Khoo said, anything we can do to sell a few more copies helps!
A half tank of gas
Lunch with my wife
A Metrocard
A tshirt
Half a pair of shoes
My dry cleaning
Tickets to Indy 4
A couple of paperbacks
For the price of the whole damn series, at $20 a pop, I have recently bought:
Dinner with friends
A bag
My electric bill
Half of my business electric bill
That said, $20 for this game is a no-brainer. $80 for the whole series over the course of a year is a given. I'd happily pay $30 per installment. Another poster put it perfectly, that this game is targeted at a VERY specific demographic that I fit into (PA Fans). I think that earns my cash, no questions asked.
Perhaps Planet Australia?
And I thought it was going to be 4 Episodes, not 5. Four Gods on the window sill and all :?:
A lot of places on this very planet, I for certain know of nations in South America, Europe and Australia where games can run over $100 so this is not a foreign concept to a lot of us.
On what planet is 100 bucks an amount worth pissing oneself over?
gold star me.
...slight exaggeration, but it does come to half that in pounds. Which is why they should charge more in britain, because I'd have paid more.
So yeah, all those people who were shocked at the $100 comment, and thought the guy was an idiot... owned.
Now, if you really want to pay for a game engine, you may need to go to the bank because the going rate for, say, the Source engine is several hundred thousand dollars.
They go to the trouble of creating a game for their fans and due to the scope of the project they break it down into multiple episodes. It goes without saying that each episode is going to be greater than the one that came before it and I think Episode One was a damn good start all things considered.
Twenty Dollars is only a "problem" if you're a cheap son of a bitch. I bought the game, finished it on my day off and I loved it. Some of you are acting like paying 20 bucks for this game would put you in dire financial straits and if this is the case then you probably shouldn't be wasting money on any videogames at all.
Now look, if you don't feel that the PA game is worth fucking TWENTY DOLLARS, then you just don't like it that much. I mean, would you like minimum 6 hours of funny RPG/adventure gameplay? Would you like it as much as two lunches out at Wendy's? Would you like it as much as a new t-shirt? How about two hermit crabs? There is literally a TON OF DIFFERENT SHIT you could use that 20 dollars to buy. If so many fucking things are ahead of the PA game that you don't have 20 dollars left to buy it, then guess what YOU CHOSE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU LIKED BETTER. So your life is now full of SHIT THAT YOU LIKE BETTER THAN THE PA GAME. Why are you complaining? Do you wish you had more money? So do I. I wish I could buy everything that I even like just a little bit. But your inability to buy everything that you like even a little bit is hardly a COMPLAINT AGAINST THE PA GAME.
If you say "it doesn't have 20 dollars worth of VALUE to it" you are just saying that you don't like it that much. The "value" you get for your money is not measured against an absolute standard - you get to decide how much value you got for your money based on how much you like what you bought. So saying "it's not worth 20 dollars" translates in to "I don't think it's worth 20 dollars" which means "I don't like it as much as other things I can buy for 20 dollars" and since we're talking about TWENTY FUCKING DOLLARS HERE, you clearly just don't like the game that much.
So all those people who don't like the game, just don't buy it. Do you go on the Dolche and Gabana forums to tell them how you wouldn't pay as much as they're asking for their clothes, because you don't like clothes that much? I don't know, maybe you do - but you shouldn't. I'm sure people who really enjoy clothes will point out to you that to them the expensive clothes they're buying are totally priced at the right "value" for them. You're just complaining for the sake of complaining. YOU DON'T LIKE CLOTHES THAT MUCH. Do you go to art auctions and complain loudly that there's no way you'd pay 10 million for that Picasso because you don't like it very much? WHY COMPLAIN - YOU DON'T LIKE IT AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT. For all those people who are genuinely poor, direct complaints to your government or something, rather than the PA forums. There are bigger problems here than with the pricing of a video game.
I'm sorry to rant here, but I can't believe the number of people who are upset with the price. There may be legitimate issues to tackle with pricing (such as the parity for Xbox and PC pricing), but that it is 20 dollars is not a reasonable complaint.
I like you. You're angry and you write with a cohesive style. You're good people, Green Dream.
I agree it was worth $20 bucks but I don't agree that the next couple episodes should be 20 bucks
Especially if say it's 4 episodes and they are all 20 bucks than that's at least 20 bucks more expensive than it should be for a full game
That's the biggest issue I have for it, I just think that overall if each episode is 20 bucks than the package is more expensive than it should be for the full package.
Well Your Wrong the price is a reasonable thing to complain about and your ranting is just nonsense especially when the price is fine with being 20 but it's the overall pricing of all the episodes that should be more of a concern and I don't care if it's Penny Arcade or not when it's unresonable pricing than it's unreasonable pricing
Now if the rest of the episodes are say 15 bucks than I can say that's not that bad of a deal but if they all are 20 than that's definitely not worth it overall.
I didn't expect a price cut on Sam & Max Episode 2 or Half Life 2: Episode 2 and I don't expect one here.
It isn't a game split up into 4 parts. It's four episodic games with an overarching storyline. This stupid "Oh but when you put it all together, it's more expensive than a game I buy on the shelves" idea uses some really twisted logic. If the game is fun, and each episode is value for money, having four episodes suddenly makes it not value for money?
What happens if, as Gabe says, episodes 2-4 have more content, more puzzles, more everything? "Oh, but when you put the prices together it's more than a boxed game."
It sounds like you just have a hardon against the episodic game format and you're trying to shove it into your mental "off the shelf" box.
I'm not paying that much for just the same shit that's been messed around with and some writing tacked on!
...Oh wait, actually, I did. And I didn't complain, and it put me about £150 out of pocket. Which is "296.84" USD according to google exchange (using exact conversion for approximate amounts, ftw). Why?
It just took longer between eps
Same reason I didn't panic when I heard that Peter Jackson was doing King Kong. I thought, okay, he'll take care of it. He won't be afraid to change what he needs to, and it'll still feel like King Kong. I trust the PA brand, I know it'll be shit hot whatever it spits out.
If you take Any Random Game You Enjoyed, it was less expensive than the Rain Slick series will be, and likely had more replayability and depth.
No. The argument is that each episode is not worth $20. The combining of them is just to show that a ~30 hour game with no replayability would cost $80. It's really not hard to understand.