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FINALS: PRE-FIGHT DEBATE

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    GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I can't see how Wonder Woman would lose this. She's a warrior from birth, she's just as powerful as Superman, and worthy of lifting Mjolnir. She'd fuck all that shit up, Maxwell Lord style.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    I can't see how Wonder Woman would lose this. She's a warrior from birth, she's just as powerful as Superman, and worthy of lifting Mjolnir. She'd fuck all that shit up, Maxwell Lord style.

    Now that's a good point. She doesn't get any special equipment, but she can steal someone else's normal equipment.

    Fencingsax on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Besides her "normal" equipment is pretty strong. Unbreakable magic lasso: Check. Unbreakable Bracelets that when clanged together can breifly reform the shield Aegis: check. Razor sharp magic boomerang Tiarra: Check.

    Then lets give her speed, strength, thoughness, martial prowess, wisdom, insight, the ability to meld with the earth and heal...she's got it all baby.

    Monkeydrye on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    1) Is Shades Darkness actually Magic? I just thought it was some alternative energy type thing.
    2) Hiding in the dark will not work on Supes or WW...they have hightened senses.


    I think it goes:
    WW
    Shade
    Thor
    Superman

    Shade has expeience, WW has skill and tactics (she is apparently one of the smartest league members as well). There is too much magic and weird stuff for Superman to handle, and everyone would gun for him.

    It's magic energy from what is pretty much Hell (some shit with the Anti-Monitor's arm, but yeah it's pretty much Hell).

    And if he conceals himself using Hell magic, then I don't think Superman's heightened senses will pinpoint him.

    And as I've said before, if Wonder Woman loses to Shade it's because her invulnerability doesn't protect her from piercing attacks and her bracelets can only block one side of her body while Shade could trap her in something like an Iron Maiden.

    robosagogo on
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    HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    Wonder Woman loses to Shade it's because her invulnerability doesn't protect her from piercing attacks

    Really? I had no idea that her power was limited like that. Good to know.

    Hensler on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Hensler wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Wonder Woman loses to Shade it's because her invulnerability doesn't protect her from piercing attacks

    Really? I had no idea that her power was limited like that. Good to know.
    Yeah, it's really stupid. I think they only made her that way so she'd still be dependent on the bracelets to deflect bullets and the like.

    robosagogo on
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    Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Thor and Shade could win

    Thor because, oh, I dunno, he's got a hammer that shoots magic lightning. And we all know how much Superman likes magic lightning.

    and Shade, hero or not, is ruthless enough that he'd kill someone if he had to. And Wonder Woman's ripe for the penetration.

    Kuribo's Shoe on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The more I think about it, Wonder Woman stands a really good chance in this fight. She has been trained from birth to be a warrior and could probably only lose to Superman if he went all out, which he never does. Besides once Thor gets put down, she can grab his hammer and make this happen.
    wonderwomanhammergu4.jpg

    Marathon on
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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Hrrrghhh...

    Can't decide.

    I really don't want to vote for Shade based on the fact I don't think I've ever read a single thing with him in it.

    Furu on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I'd have thought the gods of misogynistic vikings would have made the power of Thor gender exclusive.

    Evidently not.

    robosagogo on
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    NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Marathon wrote:
    The more I think about it, Wonder Woman stands a really good chance in this fight. She has been trained from birth to be a warrior and could probably only lose to Superman if he went all out, which he never does. Besides once Thor gets put down, she can grab his hammer and make this happen.
    wonderwomanhammergu4.jpg

    does this mean, that Thor has more power than WW ever had? If so, how the hell is she going to get the hammer form him, AND if thor really is so much more powerful than WW, he should be a little over superman.

    Nogs on
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    Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Shade being the badass he sounds like shows off his awesome power early causing everyone to see him as the biggest threat (plus everyone has no doubt watched his video). Thor,WW and Supes all beat on him putting him down early.

    I wish it could stop there and have a three way tie but alas it cannot be.

    Thor and Wonder Woman start fighting, they are both godlike sorta and have a similar taste in clothes so why not right? Thor comes out on top thanks to his friggin' big hammer and control over lightning baby!

    Then Superman and Thor have a fight that lasts all night and all day with Superman narrowly coming out on top. Because he is fricken Superman.

    The End.

    Caveman Paws on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    So basically, Shade exhausts himself with an awesome, non-lethal display of power and is then trounced by three people at once?

    That's kind of stupid.

    robosagogo on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I haven't see enough of shade to think he is some kind of God. Almost evertime I see him deal it, it is against normal humans. Aside from the Flash. Despide her "weakness" to piercing, WW can still move FAST. Any Iron Maiden attack could be broken. And even if not envulnerable to piercing, she is still super tough.

    Monkeydrye on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    I haven't see enough of shade to think he is some kind of God. Almost evertime I see him deal it, it is against normal humans. Aside from the Flash. Despide her "weakness" to piercing, WW can still move FAST. Any Iron Maiden attack could be broken. And even if not envulnerable to piercing, she is still super tough.
    How do you break out of an Iron Maiden style attack? Punching the spikes and impaling your hands? Sure she could block her front with the Aegis Shield, but then she'd just get plugged in the rear.

    robosagogo on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    You're talking about a woman who cut off one of Medusa's snakes, and then squirted herself in the eyes to blind herself so she wouldn't accidently look at her. You don't think she will let one of her hands get mangled to keep from losing?

    Besides, everything I has seen him do is based on him making nasty monsters and such. I would happy to be educated, but thus far he seems to summon nightmares...not use his powers like a green lantern.

    Monkeydrye on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    You're talking about a woman who cut off one of Medusa's snakes, and then squirted herself in the eyes to blind herself so she wouldn't accidently look at her. You don't think she will let one of her hands get mangled to keep from losing?

    Besides, everything I has seen him do is based on him making nasty monsters and such. I would happy to be educated, but thus far he seems to summon nightmares...not use his powers like a green lantern.
    He's made robots and giant scissors too, but that was only to make himself seem ridiculous.

    robosagogo on
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2006
    I'm not sure that picking up Thor's hammer is an option for anyone else here. As I understand it, it's not just available to anyone who's worthy. In JLA/Avengers he tosses it to Superman and Supes goes to town with it, but later on he can't lift it. It's laid out explicitly that the enchantment lets certain 'worthy' others lift it in 'desperate' need, but that privilege can be revoked when the need has passed. You may be on the list of worthies, but that doesn't mean you can just nick it anytime you please. I don't think a free for all is going to count as desperate need, especially as it's every man for himself, and Thor isn't going to want anyone else to win.

    Then again, I could of course be wrong, having not read enough Thor. I haven't read Marvel vs DC, but under what circumstances did WW pick up the hammer? Is it suggested there that Thor's hammer is up for grabs when he's down and out?

    Bogart on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well, my take on this whole thing is to use the people like they would normally do. Keep them in character. Otherwise superman doesn't care about killing, and owns everyone faster than they can think.

    Do we have any canon of shade dealing with any one like a Superman or WW? Flash is fast, but not tough or strong...and not an especially amazing fighter. And Jack may have had some power, he was a newbie hero against a ageless villain. Someone like Thor, Supes, or WW are a bit more experienced and a bit more powerful.

    I am just saying, what he can do on paper, and what he WOULD do are probably not the same. Green lantern could just make little green bubbles in everyone's brains and kill most foes in this contest...but he wouldn't. So, would Shade impale an attractive (probably THE most attractive DC woman thanks to aphrodite's blessing) just to proove he was the best hero?

    When I think about it, without a compelling reason, he probably would have dropped out ages ago.

    Monkeydrye on
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    The LuggageThe Luggage Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Shade could win, but he'd probably give it to Superman.

    The Luggage on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Well, my take on this whole thing is to use the people like they would normally do. Keep them in character. Otherwise superman doesn't care about killing, and owns everyone faster than they can think.

    Do we have any canon of shade dealing with any one like a Superman or WW? Flash is fast, but not tough or strong...and not an especially amazing fighter. And Jack may have had some power, he was a newbie hero against a ageless villain. Someone like Thor, Supes, or WW are a bit more experienced and a bit more powerful.

    I am just saying, what he can do on paper, and what he WOULD do are probably not the same. Green lantern could just make little green bubbles in everyone's brains and kill most foes in this contest...but he wouldn't. So, would Shade impale an attractive (probably THE most attractive DC woman thanks to aphrodite's blessing) just to proove he was the best hero?

    When I think about it, without a compelling reason, he probably would have dropped out ages ago.

    Superman can't do anything against magic. The only power he has that isn't gimped by that liability is his super-speed. There is literally nothing he can do to beat Shade at all, and that's all there is to it.

    Flash was so powerful that they only allowed his weakest incarnation into this fight (and Impulse, who only lost because everyone thinks his ADD would interfere).

    Jack and Shade never really fought either, as best as I can recall. Shade was being controlled by someone else, and in the end Jack won by freeing Shade.

    Shade fought for fun. The only person who's more likely to enjoy this is Thor, and I'd say Shade and WW are tied for liking this sort of thing. Superman, meanwhile, would probably drop out given the option.

    robosagogo on
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    Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    edited November 2006
    Nogs wrote:
    Marathon wrote:
    The more I think about it, Wonder Woman stands a really good chance in this fight. She has been trained from birth to be a warrior and could probably only lose to Superman if he went all out, which he never does. Besides once Thor gets put down, she can grab his hammer and make this happen.
    wonderwomanhammergu4.jpg

    does this mean, that Thor has more power than WW ever had? If so, how the hell is she going to get the hammer form him, AND if thor really is so much more powerful than WW, he should be a little over superman.

    No, it means that Wonder Woman + Thor is stronger than Wonder Woman by herself

    Garlic Bread on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Well, my take on this whole thing is to use the people like they would normally do. Keep them in character. Otherwise superman doesn't care about killing, and owns everyone faster than they can think.

    Do we have any canon of shade dealing with any one like a Superman or WW? Flash is fast, but not tough or strong...and not an especially amazing fighter. And Jack may have had some power, he was a newbie hero against a ageless villain. Someone like Thor, Supes, or WW are a bit more experienced and a bit more powerful.

    I am just saying, what he can do on paper, and what he WOULD do are probably not the same. Green lantern could just make little green bubbles in everyone's brains and kill most foes in this contest...but he wouldn't. So, would Shade impale an attractive (probably THE most attractive DC woman thanks to aphrodite's blessing) just to proove he was the best hero?

    When I think about it, without a compelling reason, he probably would have dropped out ages ago.

    Superman can't do anything against magic. The only power he has that isn't gimped by that liability is his super-speed. There is literally nothing he can do to beat Shade at all, and that's all there is to it.

    Flash was so powerful that they only allowed his weakest incarnation into this fight (and Impulse, who only lost because everyone thinks his ADD would interfere).

    Jack and Shade never really fought either, as best as I can recall. Shade was being controlled by someone else, and in the end Jack won by freeing Shade.

    Shade fought for fun. The only person who's more likely to enjoy this is Thor, and I'd say Shade and WW are tied for liking this sort of thing. Superman, meanwhile, would probably drop out given the option.

    Well, I do think Supers could still burn magic stuff with his heat vision. But, I agree, he goes down. But again, the old "He's not tissue paper to magic, he just isn't super invulnerable" issue raises it's head. And WW is HIGHLY resistant to magic. Does that mean he would be more tolerant of Shades stuff?

    Monkeydrye on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I don't see how you can beat shadow constructs with heat.

    Is Wonder Woman more resistant to magic than she is invulnerable? Would a magic punch hurt LESS than a normal punch? If not, then a piercing shadow would hurt her as much as a bullet.

    robosagogo on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Does Wonder Woman respect other Gods in DC's universe? Would she have a problem fighting against Thor because he's a God?

    Malkor on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well, the shadows I have seen have a solid component. I mean green lanterns energy is energy...but if he makes it into a solid bubble, somone can break it. Again...his "shadows" have a very nebulous definition. I mean, if they are shadows, they should be very weak against light.

    As for her resistance, well, not we get down to this: Just because something is powered by magic does not mean it does magic damage. If it did, Thor would own Supes in 5 seconds flat. But his hammer is not enchanted to do extra magic damage.
    So, a fire started by magic is regualr fire. And supes would be resistant. A magical fire is actually magic and supes goes down, WW is very resistant (well, she's also natually resistant to fire anyway).

    So, if Shade makes and nasty solid spike, but it doesn't have any kind of magical sharpness, WW gets hurt bad, Supes flicks it off. Not sure if Shade can have it both ways.

    Monkeydrye on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Malkor wrote:
    Does Wonder Woman respect other Gods in DC's universe? Would she have a problem fighting against Thor because he's a God?

    I don't think she would. I think they would be like "slum gods", or posers. She is pretty loyal to her Gods. So much so she was willing to write a book and potentially upset a lot of people (including religions) with her thoughts on the world.

    Monkeydrye on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Well, the shadows I have seen have a solid component. I mean green lanterns energy is energy...but if he makes it into a solid bubble, somone can break it. Again...his "shadows" have a very nebulous definition. I mean, if they are shadows, they should be very weak against light.

    As for her resistance, well, not we get down to this: Just because something is powered by magic does not mean it does magic damage. If it did, Thor would own Supes in 5 seconds flat. But his hammer is not enchanted to do extra magic damage.
    So, a fire started by magic is regualr fire. And supes would be resistant. A magical fire is actually magic and supes goes down, WW is very resistant (well, she's also natually resistant to fire anyway).

    So, if Shade makes and nasty solid spike, but it doesn't have any kind of magical sharpness, WW gets hurt bad, Supes flicks it off. Not sure if Shade can have it both ways.

    The magic behind Shade's shadows, unlike Thor's hammer, is clearly designed to cause harm. If it weren't, they'd be as harmful as normal shadows. That's how Superman gets beaten by Shade.

    Heat vision is a very weak light source. In fact, the only reason it's even red is so we can see it. Last I checked, pure heat didn't have a color and also had no effect on shadows. Even if it did, the beams are thin and the shadow could just seal the gap after it had been cut. There's no psychic backlash if a shadow is cut, unlike with Sue's bubbles.

    robosagogo on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    So you believe that the shadows are in fact intangible shadows that do their damage by magic? That says to me that WW is pretty resistant. The piercing weakness is to actual physical poking attacks (yes I just talked about poking WW). This also means anything he makes to try and stop her (walls, cages, beasts) she can beak easier since they aren't really solid.

    Now, if they are solid, they should get damages by heat vision just like any solid.

    It's really hard to use logic with "shadows" in comics. Because there is no such thing as shadow energy in real life. All darkness is, is an absense of light.

    Monkeydrye on
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    AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    why would odin allow superman or ww to pick up the hammer?

    he allowed them before, because it had to be done. you think he'll just be like oh hey go ahead and kill thor with his own hammer, it's all cool.

    Angry on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    So you believe that the shadows are in fact intangible shadows that do their damage by magic? That says to me that WW is pretty resistant. The piercing weakness is to actual physical poking attacks (yes I just talked about poking WW). This also means anything he makes to try and stop her (walls, cages, beasts) she can beak easier since they aren't really solid.

    Now, if they are solid, they should get damages by heat vision just like any solid.

    It's really hard to use logic with "shadows" in comics. Because there is no such thing as shadow energy in real life. All darkness is, is an absense of light.

    Can heat vision break through Green Lantern constructs, out of curiousity?

    Shade can render his shadows tangible and intangible just as he can render himself tangible and intangible.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/askmegrimlock/Starman_06_0495_18.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/askmegrimlock/Starman_06_0495_19.jpg

    The shadows themselves are magic, but that doesn't mean they can't also be solid.

    I don't see, though, why Wonder Woman wouldn't be vulnerable to piercing damage from a magic attack. She's invulnerable to magic, granted, but she's invulnerable to mundane damage as well. Why would she be vulnerable to bullets but not magic bullets?

    Do you have anything to cite that says she's MORE invulnerable to magic than she is to mundane damage?

    robosagogo on
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    BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Marathon wrote:
    The more I think about it, Wonder Woman stands a really good chance in this fight. She has been trained from birth to be a warrior and could probably only lose to Superman if he went all out, which he never does. Besides once Thor gets put down, she can grab his hammer and make this happen.
    wonderwomanhammergu4.jpg
    I'm not going to get into another arugument over Marvel vs. DC's(That is what it's from, yes?) canon, but we have proof that it's no longer canon. Also, she was worthy then, before the whole Max Lord thing. Yes, she killed him because it had to be done but it might have an effect on her worthiness.

    Blankspace on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Thor's probably done tons of killing.

    But yeah, I'm pretty sure you can only wield the hammer of Thor when you have good cause to. Needing to have the hammer so that you can beat up its owner isn't a good cause, nor is (arguably) needing Thor's hammer to help your odds in this fight.

    robosagogo on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I'm not sure how that hammer thing works. Does Odin decide? I thought someone just had to be virtuous enough (even though the actually Mythical thor was not all that nice a guy). Didn't freaking Storm use it once? Or was that a fake hammer?


    Ok, if he can make them solid, yes they would pierce. Solid is solid. BUT the magic part, that would make it supernatuarally sharp...that no worky. She resists that.

    I have never been a fan of the "you can't hit it because it is intangeable...except when it hits you, the suddenly it is. I mean, as far as I know, Shade thinks as fast as a normal person...Supes and WW think faster.

    Monkeydrye on
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    But yeah, I'm pretty sure you can only wield the hammer of Thor when you have good cause to. Needing to have the hammer so that you can beat up its owner isn't a good cause, nor is (arguably) needing Thor's hammer to help your odds in this fight.

    JLA/Avengers backs this up. I'm not a regular Thor reader, though, so apart from that one instance I have no idea.

    Bogart on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    I'm not sure how that hammer thing works. Does Odin decide? I thought someone just had to be virtuous enough (even though the actually Mythical thor was not all that nice a guy). Didn't freaking Storm use it once? Or was that a fake hammer?


    Ok, if he can make them solid, yes they would pierce. Solid is solid. BUT the magic part, that would make it supernatuarally sharp...that no worky. She resists that.

    I have never been a fan of the "you can't hit it because it is intangeable...except when it hits you, the suddenly it is. I mean, as far as I know, Shade thinks as fast as a normal person...Supes and WW think faster.

    What do you mean by supernaturally sharp?

    And I'm sure Shade thinks faster than the average person as well. He's got supernaturally enhanced physiology (hence immortality and invulnerability), and his mind isn't so slow that the Flash could just cold clock him in between blinks..

    robosagogo on
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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    What I heard through the grapevine is that Odin allowed Supes to pick up the hammar (that is one of the two possible requirements you can fill to lift it). The other is blah blah blah virtue etc., which only Beta Ray Bill has been able to do (and it surprised the fuck out of Odin).

    Munkus Beaver on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well, take the Vorpal blade that the Fables folks were using. It is "magically" sharp. If WW let it hit her, it could hurt her, but not like someone without magic resistance. Basically someone takes "magical" damage.

    A friend and I have had a long standing fight about magic and superman and wonderwoman. Cpt. Marvel. He is POWERED by magic. But to me, his fistsjust hit hard...they don't do "extra" magic damage. Mind you, his lightning IS magic, but not his fists. My friend believes otherwise. He thinks a punch from Marvel flatens Supes (or should).

    I feel like this is the same. Coming from magic, or originating from magic is not the same as being magically enchanted. If Dr. Fate made regualr iron chains appear from nowhere "magically", superman could still break them. But if Dr. Fate made magically hardened chains, Superman would have a harder time (if not impossible).

    Monkeydrye on
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    MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    What I heard through the grapevine is that Odin allowed Supes to pick up the hammar (that is one of the two possible requirements you can fill to lift it). The other is blah blah blah virtue etc., which only Beta Ray Bill has been able to do (and it surprised the fuck out of Odin).

    So, what were the circumstances of WW picking it up in that picture.

    Monkeydrye on
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    ArcibiArcibi Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Arcibi on
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