I didn't feel like I needed to make a wordy post about this, but I guess I do, so here goes [(COMPLETELY CORRECT) OPINIONS ENSUE]:
There is only one spell in the game that is a counterpart to Death Grip, and that is Leap of Faith.
Death Grip is not a mobility tool and comparing it to mobility tools is impossible because it does not fulfill the same function. It CAN perform the same function in the sense of closing distance between yourself and a target, but the ability isn't that simple. There are other just as important (usually more important) uses for the ability,
namely:
(1) Death Grip, like Leap of Faith, is also used to peel targets. Are there melee blowing up your squishies? Death Grip them as soon as you see them Charge. Death Grip them so they have to hoof it back and deal with your snares and Necrotic Strike. Death Grip removes pressure just as much as it can apply it.
(2) Death Grip and Leap of Faith also reposition often either out of line of sight or away/towards areas where the most harm can be inflicted. Example: You can Death Grip people into Ring of Frost, or Leap of Faith a friendly player out of line of sight of an enemy player.
Is Death Grip a richer ability than Feral Charge? I would say yes. It's also better at reliably moving someone from point A to point B. Does that make Death Grip better than Feral Charge?
No, because at that point you are throwing out the other uses of Death Grip (and ignoring the skill and decision making involved in the ability) as well as throwing out the other mobility tools that Druids have (and the skill and decision making associated with those abilities).
I could make the same argument about Death Grip vs Heroic Leap. Different classes and abilities are different, and this is one of those cases where they are divergent enough that they can't really be compared.
I didn't feel like I needed to make a wordy post about this, but I guess I do, so here goes [(COMPLETELY CORRECT) OPINIONS ENSUE]:
There is only one spell in the game that is a counterpart to Death Grip, and that is Leap of Faith.
Death Grip is not a mobility tool and comparing it to mobility tools is impossible because it does not fulfill the same function. It CAN perform the same function in the sense of closing distance between yourself and a target, but the ability isn't that simple. There are other just as important (usually more important) uses for the ability,
namely:
(1) Death Grip, like Leap of Faith, is also used to peel targets. Are there melee blowing up your squishies? Death Grip them as soon as you see them Charge. Death Grip them so they have to hoof it back and deal with your snares and Necrotic Strike. Death Grip removes pressure just as much as it can apply it.
(2) Death Grip and Leap of Faith also reposition often either out of line of sight or away/towards areas where the most harm can be inflicted. Example: You can Death Grip people into Ring of Frost, or Leap of Faith a friendly player out of line of sight of an enemy player.
Is Death Grip a richer ability than Feral Charge? I would say yes. It's also better at reliably moving someone from point A to point B. Does that make Death Grip better than Feral Charge?
No, because at that point you are throwing out the other uses of Death Grip (and ignoring the skill and decision making involved in the ability) as well as throwing out the other mobility tools that Druids have (and the skill and decision making associated with those abilities).
I could make the same argument about Death Grip vs Heroic Leap. Different classes and abilities are different, and this is one of those cases where they are divergent enough that they can't really be compared.
It's a gap closer. A gap is the space between one thing and another. You can go to them, they can come to you and either way the gap is closed.
Yes, Death Grip has a lot of uses that actually make it quite a bit better than charge/intercept/leap (and thus the cooldown), but lets not lose sight of what we were talking about here.
Shryke said
Outside maybe Arena, DG is a joke for gap closing.
Which is silly and demonstrably false, at least in the context of this game where the other options are various charges. DG is actually strategically better (let's not forget that you can deathgrip an opponent not just to yourself, but to your trigger happy buddy standing beside you.) for some of the reasons you've listed. They balance this by giving it a longish cooldown for a gap closing ability.
I apologize for my feathers being ruffled earlier, but really, what are you trying to argue about here?
Because this scenario assumes the other player in question has no other way to gain distance again. Every single class does though. And once they gain that distance again, you are out of gap closers.
The same would apply to charge though. The counter, is to snare them after charging and death gripping. I don't know what you're getting at here.
The key difference I see with charge, is the ability to run away from one opponent, by charging to another opponent in the opposite direction. Apart from that, I'm not seeing it, from an aggressive perspective.
Except then Warriors have intercept and heroic leap. DKs have ... to wait another 45 seconds. They also have stuns to maintain melee. DKs have an expensive slow. Unfortunately, slows aren't that useful when the other guy can slow you back.
Outside maybe Arena, DG is a joke for gap closing.
Which is silly and demonstrably false, at least in the context of this game where the other options are various charges. DG is actually strategically better (let's not forget that you can deathgrip an opponent not just to yourself, but to your trigger happy buddy standing beside you.) for some of the reasons you've listed. They balance this by giving it a longish cooldown for a gap closing ability.
I apologize for my feathers being ruffled earlier, but really, what are you trying to argue about here?
No, it's demonstrably true as any DK who's ever PvPed will tell you. DKs have no way to remove snares or slows (right now) and thus the ability to close the gap once every 45 seconds is useless because every class has a way to rewiden the gap and after that, you are fucked. And slowing before hand doesn't solve this issue.
DG does not compensate for the fact that DKs are incredibly immobile. It brings your target into range once every 45 seconds, but it doesn't give you the ability to stay on target long enough to actually DO much of anything.
I don't know if I would call Death Grip a bad gap closer, but you do have to be careful about how you use it. The opportunity cost for the ability is very high though. At best you have 35 seconds before you can use it again, and you have to dump a Frost rune to snare afterwards which denies you access to Festering Strike and Obliterate. It also doesn't work on rooted opponents.
Death Grip is good at closing the gap, and Chains of Ice is a good snare, but in the current state of competitive PvP a gap closer every 35 seconds combined with an expensive snare means that Death Knights get kited around a lot. There's a lot of ways to deal with it, like sending the ghoul after them, using ranged attacks, using AMS to absorb a slow effect, but none of those options make you more mobile (with the exception of if you get lucky with AMS or Dark Simulacrum someone's Blink), hence Death's Advance for Unholy and Chains root for Frost.
You know TB is shit when the thing that most pisses people off is when the other side destroys the towers and forces us all to spend an extra 15 minutes in that hellhole.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
You know TB is shit when the thing that most pisses people off is when the other side destroys the towers and forces us all to spend an extra 15 minutes in that hellhole.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
The towers are pointless. They do not help the attacker in any way
You know TB is shit when the thing that most pisses people off is when the other side destroys the towers and forces us all to spend an extra 15 minutes in that hellhole.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
The towers are pointless. They do not help the attacker in any way
Which is why it pisses the defenders off so much when they destroy them.
Because all it does is make the game go longer, with no change in outcome.
shryke on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
You know TB is shit when the thing that most pisses people off is when the other side destroys the towers and forces us all to spend an extra 15 minutes in that hellhole.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
The towers are pointless. They do not help the attacker in any way
Which is why it pisses the defenders off so much when they destroy them.
Because all it does is make the game go longer, with no change in outcome.
Even if half of the defending team are made of gibbering monkeys, they still win.
It is almost a foregone conclusion.
And I get locked out of the raid content my guild could conceivably invite me to.
You know TB is shit when the thing that most pisses people off is when the other side destroys the towers and forces us all to spend an extra 15 minutes in that hellhole.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
The towers are pointless. They do not help the attacker in any way
I think you get some honor for destroying them, don't you?
Alliance on my server seriously hop on to horde alts and queue for WG just so they can AFK at the central graveyard and win the game on offense.
Steel-Angel on
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Is anyone using the PvP metas? And if so, which one?
I'm trying to decide what to buy next on my Jewelcrafter. Personally, I use the same Engi goggles for PvE and PvP, so I just use the PvE healer meta. Both Powerful and Forlorn would be options for me, but I'm also not sure if the 10% is even worth it.
The 1% spell reflection probably provides more benefit, in the form of hilarious incidences of warlocks fearing themselves, than the 10% stun reduction would.
The 1% spell reflection probably provides more benefit, in the form of hilarious incidences of warlocks fearing themselves, than the 10% stun reduction would.
or ferals instant-cycloing themselves
back in the days of wrath that meta would stack with Frost Warding and the associated minor glyphs too
so you had about a 30% chance to negate a frost/fire attack and a 6% chance to reflect it
in other words, about 1/3 of the time frost and fire based abilities would fail outright when targeting a mage that had a ward up (including chains of ice)
Question: Which BG is the best for farming honour and HKs in cata? I haven't tried many but it clearly is no longer AV.
Tol Barad. Oh you really wanted a BG? Then still AV for honor, I'd say, although the bonus for winning a random can add up if you roll with a premade group. But AV at least rewards honor for burning towers etc so you can't really go out with zero honor.
Grobian on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
You know TB is shit when the thing that most pisses people off is when the other side destroys the towers and forces us all to spend an extra 15 minutes in that hellhole.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
I've won at the sixteen minute mark and at the 18 minute mark etc. as the attacker.
Sometimes you beat your head against the wall hard enough, you break through.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think back in Vanilla a Mage could fireball a guy with then engineering reflector, and if the mage had a reflector as well it'd fly back at the original target.
You know TB is shit when the thing that most pisses people off is when the other side destroys the towers and forces us all to spend an extra 15 minutes in that hellhole.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
I've won at the sixteen minute mark and at the 18 minute mark etc. as the attacker.
Sometimes you beat your head against the wall hard enough, you break through.
As far as I've ever seen, the only way to win short of cheating is if too many defenders try to defend the towers to make the game end sooner.
Which is kinda the point I was making:
People will defend a pointless and difficult to defend objective and run the risk of losing, just to not have to spend 15 more minutes in TB
Destroying the towers isn't useless, the game is just so stacked in favor of the defense that a longer game rarely makes an actual difference.
Destroying all the towers doubles the length of the game, which gives the offense more chances to win. It's just that the offense' chance to win in an evenly matched game is so low that it doesn't matter.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I was waiting on the bridge for TB to start and I saw an interesting pally. He was in all holy pvp gear but he was speced in prot. All of his gear was reforged for mastery. Its he somekind of unkillable annoyance or just crazy?
Lostprophet8 on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Gah, had some guild just join our TB match when we were on defense (today being the first day I've seen us control the place in a week). They spent the whole time never coming down from the central graveyard and barking bad advice in general chat constantly. If anyone tried to give actual good advice (ie. Turtling is bad and will cause us to lose, stop defending the towers because it's pointless and will also cause us to lose) they would get flamed to the ground.
Ultimately, we lost and they celebrated, so I'm fairly sure they were all alts from the other faction.
Is being that detrimental to your team a reportable offense, or do I just have to hope karma hits them all with the flu or something? Because if this is going to be a common occurrence, I'm just going to pretend the southern Tol Barad island doesn't even exist. Blizzard put enough fail into that place without the players adding to it.
The towers aren't that bad honour/time. If what you're doing after TB is winning WSG in a premade on WSG weekend, then no, don't destroy the towers. If you're going back to idle in your faction's capital while you write angry posts about how slow the honor grind is, then yes, destroy the towers.
Calixtus on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
The towers aren't that bad honour/time. If what you're doing after TB is winning WSG in a premade on WSG weekend, then no, don't destroy the towers. If you're going back to idle in your faction's capital while you write angry posts about how slow the honor grind is, then yes, destroy the towers.
why would you grind honor?
you do TB to get Baradin Hold.
Elldren on
fuck gendered marketing
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited January 2011
No, you get TB to get three free tokens.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I said it before, I have fun in PvP. In Arenas, in BGs, even in TB. I only queue for TB when I want a big zerg, so at most once a day. Yes, some battles or situations are frustrating. Yes, some design choices by Blizz are horrible. I still have fun. If I stop having fun, I go do something else and return later.
@all: Thanks for your comments RE: metas. I won't buy the cuts on my Jewelcrafter, except maybe the spell reflect one. I used that in WotLK and it was funny sometimes.
Gah, had some guild just join our TB match when we were on defense (today being the first day I've seen us control the place in a week). They spent the whole time never coming down from the central graveyard and barking bad advice in general chat constantly. If anyone tried to give actual good advice (ie. Turtling is bad and will cause us to lose, stop defending the towers because it's pointless and will also cause us to lose) they would get flamed to the ground.
Ultimately, we lost and they celebrated, so I'm fairly sure they were all alts from the other faction.
Is being that detrimental to your team a reportable offense, or do I just have to hope karma hits them all with the flu or something? Because if this is going to be a common occurrence, I'm just going to pretend the southern Tol Barad island doesn't even exist. Blizzard put enough fail into that place without the players adding to it.
Yup, that's the way TB switches sides these days. Most of the time anyway.
You either hope for a pack of retards on the other team or, more often, you cheat.
shryke on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Gah, had some guild just join our TB match when we were on defense (today being the first day I've seen us control the place in a week). They spent the whole time never coming down from the central graveyard and barking bad advice in general chat constantly. If anyone tried to give actual good advice (ie. Turtling is bad and will cause us to lose, stop defending the towers because it's pointless and will also cause us to lose) they would get flamed to the ground.
Ultimately, we lost and they celebrated, so I'm fairly sure they were all alts from the other faction.
Is being that detrimental to your team a reportable offense, or do I just have to hope karma hits them all with the flu or something? Because if this is going to be a common occurrence, I'm just going to pretend the southern Tol Barad island doesn't even exist. Blizzard put enough fail into that place without the players adding to it.
Yup, that's the way TB switches sides these days. Most of the time anyway.
You either hope for a pack of retards on the other team or, more often, you cheat.
why hope for a pack of retards when you can be a pack of retards?
I had a warrior charge me, and I just sat there not being able to do anything; I did a fake cast and heard him hit me with something then successfully got hex off, tried to heal myself in the gcd it took for him to trinket and charge me again and I died not long after.
In addition to this obviously being a lrn2gear issue, what made this even worse, was that a mage on my side was just pinking away, very ineffectively, at the guy, but made no attempt to help me out.
As in, no peels or cc, to help out that healer on his side that is getting his shit kicked in. You know who I saw 10 seconds later at the GY? Oh yes, that mage.
Just another day in pug pvp.
It's ok though, because when a fight kicks off, that mage gets zero heals / support and he gets to watch me healing others. Then it's just a matter of waiting for the inevitable "why u no heal me".
Redcoat-13 on
PSN Fleety2009
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
PvP is fun. PvP in WoW is sometimes fun. PvP in WoW BGs is ok fun. PvP in TB is depressing if your defending or rage inducing if your attacking. World PvP with meaningful cross realm conflicts reminiscent of DAOC would be MUCH MORE FUN.
Posts
There is only one spell in the game that is a counterpart to Death Grip, and that is Leap of Faith.
Death Grip is not a mobility tool and comparing it to mobility tools is impossible because it does not fulfill the same function. It CAN perform the same function in the sense of closing distance between yourself and a target, but the ability isn't that simple. There are other just as important (usually more important) uses for the ability,
namely:
(1) Death Grip, like Leap of Faith, is also used to peel targets. Are there melee blowing up your squishies? Death Grip them as soon as you see them Charge. Death Grip them so they have to hoof it back and deal with your snares and Necrotic Strike. Death Grip removes pressure just as much as it can apply it.
(2) Death Grip and Leap of Faith also reposition often either out of line of sight or away/towards areas where the most harm can be inflicted. Example: You can Death Grip people into Ring of Frost, or Leap of Faith a friendly player out of line of sight of an enemy player.
Is Death Grip a richer ability than Feral Charge? I would say yes. It's also better at reliably moving someone from point A to point B. Does that make Death Grip better than Feral Charge?
No, because at that point you are throwing out the other uses of Death Grip (and ignoring the skill and decision making involved in the ability) as well as throwing out the other mobility tools that Druids have (and the skill and decision making associated with those abilities).
I could make the same argument about Death Grip vs Heroic Leap. Different classes and abilities are different, and this is one of those cases where they are divergent enough that they can't really be compared.
It's a gap closer. A gap is the space between one thing and another. You can go to them, they can come to you and either way the gap is closed.
Yes, Death Grip has a lot of uses that actually make it quite a bit better than charge/intercept/leap (and thus the cooldown), but lets not lose sight of what we were talking about here.
Shryke said
Which is silly and demonstrably false, at least in the context of this game where the other options are various charges. DG is actually strategically better (let's not forget that you can deathgrip an opponent not just to yourself, but to your trigger happy buddy standing beside you.) for some of the reasons you've listed. They balance this by giving it a longish cooldown for a gap closing ability.
I apologize for my feathers being ruffled earlier, but really, what are you trying to argue about here?
Except then Warriors have intercept and heroic leap. DKs have ... to wait another 45 seconds. They also have stuns to maintain melee. DKs have an expensive slow. Unfortunately, slows aren't that useful when the other guy can slow you back.
No, it's demonstrably true as any DK who's ever PvPed will tell you. DKs have no way to remove snares or slows (right now) and thus the ability to close the gap once every 45 seconds is useless because every class has a way to rewiden the gap and after that, you are fucked. And slowing before hand doesn't solve this issue.
DG does not compensate for the fact that DKs are incredibly immobile. It brings your target into range once every 45 seconds, but it doesn't give you the ability to stay on target long enough to actually DO much of anything.
Death Grip is good at closing the gap, and Chains of Ice is a good snare, but in the current state of competitive PvP a gap closer every 35 seconds combined with an expensive snare means that Death Knights get kited around a lot. There's a lot of ways to deal with it, like sending the ghoul after them, using ranged attacks, using AMS to absorb a slow effect, but none of those options make you more mobile (with the exception of if you get lucky with AMS or Dark Simulacrum someone's Blink), hence Death's Advance for Unholy and Chains root for Frost.
I've got this power aura set up where it displays DANGER! in bright red across my entire screen if I have the debuff on me.
Also, WG is surprisingly decent for honor if you do the quests.
Seriously, it's amazing how many people will defend those towers just to make the game end sooner.
The towers are pointless. They do not help the attacker in any way
Which is why it pisses the defenders off so much when they destroy them.
Because all it does is make the game go longer, with no change in outcome.
Even if half of the defending team are made of gibbering monkeys, they still win.
It is almost a foregone conclusion.
And I get locked out of the raid content my guild could conceivably invite me to.
I think you get some honor for destroying them, don't you?
Alliance on my server seriously hop on to horde alts and queue for WG just so they can AFK at the central graveyard and win the game on offense.
Forlorn Shadowspirit
Powerful Shadowspirit
Impassive Shadowspirit
I'm trying to decide what to buy next on my Jewelcrafter. Personally, I use the same Engi goggles for PvE and PvP, so I just use the PvE healer meta. Both Powerful and Forlorn would be options for me, but I'm also not sure if the 10% is even worth it.
http://www.wowhead.com/item=52298/destructive-shadowspirit-diamond
shit is so cash
or ferals instant-cycloing themselves
back in the days of wrath that meta would stack with Frost Warding and the associated minor glyphs too
so you had about a 30% chance to negate a frost/fire attack and a 6% chance to reflect it
in other words, about 1/3 of the time frost and fire based abilities would fail outright when targeting a mage that had a ward up (including chains of ice)
Tol Barad. Oh you really wanted a BG? Then still AV for honor, I'd say, although the bonus for winning a random can add up if you roll with a premade group. But AV at least rewards honor for burning towers etc so you can't really go out with zero honor.
I've won at the sixteen minute mark and at the 18 minute mark etc. as the attacker.
Sometimes you beat your head against the wall hard enough, you break through.
I think back in Vanilla a Mage could fireball a guy with then engineering reflector, and if the mage had a reflector as well it'd fly back at the original target.
As far as I've ever seen, the only way to win short of cheating is if too many defenders try to defend the towers to make the game end sooner.
Which is kinda the point I was making:
People will defend a pointless and difficult to defend objective and run the risk of losing, just to not have to spend 15 more minutes in TB
Destroying all the towers doubles the length of the game, which gives the offense more chances to win. It's just that the offense' chance to win in an evenly matched game is so low that it doesn't matter.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
gotcha
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Ultimately, we lost and they celebrated, so I'm fairly sure they were all alts from the other faction.
Is being that detrimental to your team a reportable offense, or do I just have to hope karma hits them all with the flu or something? Because if this is going to be a common occurrence, I'm just going to pretend the southern Tol Barad island doesn't even exist. Blizzard put enough fail into that place without the players adding to it.
why would you grind honor?
you do TB to get Baradin Hold.
All hail the broken gem system and its grand illusion of choice.
I said it before, I have fun in PvP. In Arenas, in BGs, even in TB. I only queue for TB when I want a big zerg, so at most once a day. Yes, some battles or situations are frustrating. Yes, some design choices by Blizz are horrible. I still have fun. If I stop having fun, I go do something else and return later.
@all: Thanks for your comments RE: metas. I won't buy the cuts on my Jewelcrafter, except maybe the spell reflect one. I used that in WotLK and it was funny sometimes.
Yup, that's the way TB switches sides these days. Most of the time anyway.
You either hope for a pack of retards on the other team or, more often, you cheat.
why hope for a pack of retards when you can be a pack of retards?
In addition to this obviously being a lrn2gear issue, what made this even worse, was that a mage on my side was just pinking away, very ineffectively, at the guy, but made no attempt to help me out.
As in, no peels or cc, to help out that healer on his side that is getting his shit kicked in. You know who I saw 10 seconds later at the GY? Oh yes, that mage.
Just another day in pug pvp.
It's ok though, because when a fight kicks off, that mage gets zero heals / support and he gets to watch me healing others. Then it's just a matter of waiting for the inevitable "why u no heal me".
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Jesus christ it'll be great whenever we get the cap up to 2200 so we can get a piece of epic gear per week.
I quit wrath right when IC was released, and it seems elitestjerks and arenajunkies are no longer good places for pvp info.