Asking someone to explain faith or knowledge of God (and hence the afterlife) without feelings is like asking someone to explain calculus theorems without numbers. Its just not possible.
Yes, and since feelings are in no way an effective basis for making claims about reality, what does this tell you?
It tells me you don't include spirituality as part of reality.
Asking someone to explain faith or knowledge of God (and hence the afterlife) without feelings is like asking someone to explain calculus theorems without numbers. Its just not possible.
Yes, and since feelings are in no way an effective basis for making claims about reality, what does this tell you?
It tells me you don't include spirituality as part of reality.
...because it isn't?
why do you believe it isnt?
Because the word "spirituality" doesn't even mean anything. It's just a catch word people use to include everything that is supposedly transcendent of physical reality, because it's too hard to construct a coherent conceptual framework for that idea.
There is no reason to believe "spirituality" is a part of reality. Why do you believe it is? Spirituality was just invoked to suggest that feelings are worthwhile as evidence; if you invoke feelings to support spirituality, surely you will see that it is completely circular and unconvincing.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Asking someone to explain faith or knowledge of God (and hence the afterlife) without feelings is like asking someone to explain calculus theorems without numbers. Its just not possible.
Yes, and since feelings are in no way an effective basis for making claims about reality, what does this tell you?
It tells me you don't include spirituality as part of reality.
Let me explain.
If I feel there is no god/afterlife/whatever, I have exactly as much evidence as anyone else who claims there is. Our argument is equally strong, in that there is none. The guy on the street who thinks he's god himself? His argument is just as strong as anyone who claims god is real because they feel it.
Since many other claims based on feelings are demonstrably wrong, every day, every second, there is no reason to believe that feelings ever have any connection to reality. Trying to privilege certain feelings by calling them "spiritual" has no justification; there is no demonstrable difference between these so-called spiritual feelings and any other feelings.
Whenever a feeling is right, it is not right because we felt it; and no one believes the claim simply because of that feeling. Usually they are right because they are generated by a bunch of subconscious observations that percolate in the hindbrain before coming to the fore, or because you got lucky. To take feelings as evidence in themselves is to abandon the ability to discuss and make conclusions and communicate in any meaningful way.
Feelings are not means to an end, they are an end in themselves.
The bolded statement is why this is a pointless debate. I believe that feelings can be conduits to the truth. Not all feelings are conduits to the truth. But when its learned to distinguish "truth through feelings from God" from heartburn, then knowledge and progress can be obtained through feelings.
You however have never learned the above process and, from the sounds of your posts, never accept it as possible. You are effectively asking me to explain calculus (spirituality) without using numbers (feelings).
This is a pointless debate until you untie my hands by allowing feelings to be an acceptable form of gaining knowledge.
Asking someone to explain faith or knowledge of God (and hence the afterlife) without feelings is like asking someone to explain calculus theorems without numbers. Its just not possible.
Yes, and since feelings are in no way an effective basis for making claims about reality, what does this tell you?
It tells me you don't include spirituality as part of reality.
Let me explain.
If I feel there is no god/afterlife/whatever, I have exactly as much evidence as anyone else who claims there is. Our argument is equally strong, in that there is none. The guy on the street who thinks he's god himself? His argument is just as strong as anyone who claims god is real because they feel it.
Since many other claims based on feelings are demonstrably wrong, every day, every second, there is no reason to believe that feelings ever have any connection to reality. Trying to privilege certain feelings by calling them "spiritual" has no justification; there is no demonstrable difference between these so-called spiritual feelings and any other feelings.
Whenever a feeling is right, it is not right because we felt it; and no one believes the claim simply because of that feeling. Usually they are right because they are generated by a bunch of subconscious observations that percolate in the hindbrain before coming to the fore, or because you got lucky. To take feelings as evidence in themselves is to abandon the ability to discuss and make conclusions and communicate in any meaningful way.
Feelings are not means to an end, they are an end in themselves.
just as much as you believe that feelings cannot be used to clarify something or prove that something is true, we believe that they can be.
just because you dont believe something is true doesnt mean it isnt. meaning: you dont accept/believe that feelings coming from the Spirit can be used conclusively because you dont believe there is a Spirit to provide those feelings; such that you believe that any feeling comes from the person themselves and not an outside source and, therefore, you reject our conclusion that feelings can be used as conclusive evidence.
We believe that it is not the PERSON who creates the feelings. We believe it comes from an outside source. There is no way to duplicate these feelings without that source. They are extremely different than the feelings that my body creates when responding to earthly/secular things. But when pure and true knowledge is presented to a person, the feeling that comes with it is different than just "oh how interesting" or "i like that".
Feelings are demonstrably nerve impulses and chemicals shooting through your brain. Feelings are, even with our very limited comprehension of the brain, quite clearly physical events that can be manipulated physically.
How do you know the feeling is truth from God and not just your brain acting up? How do you know it's not Satan, for that matter, or an alien beaming rays into your cranium? More likely, how do you know it's not just the manifestation of years of social conditioning - which is the source of most feelings, like morality, aesthetic taste, etc? Why assume it's truth from god and not just the truth hammered into by your parents, peers and community?
Feelings are demonstrably nerve impulses and chemicals shooting through your brain. Feelings are, even with our very limited comprehension of the brain, quite clearly physical events that can be manipulated physically.
How do you know the feeling is truth from God and not just your brain acting up? How do you know it's not Satan, for that matter, or an alien beaming rays into your cranium? More likely, how do you know it's not just the manifestation of years of social conditioning - which is the source of most feelings, like morality, aesthetic taste, etc? Why assume it's truth from god and not just the truth hammered into by your parents, peers and community?
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit. you learn to recognize those difference, like obifett said.
in fact, sometimes, i want to believe things are true and my body begins to try to duplicate Spiritual feelings. Those imitations leave one feeling confused and not satisfied in the mind and heart. True feelings from the Spirit leave one feeling satisfied and uplifted. The difference is there, you just have to pay attention to it. Satan tries to replicate the feelings of the Spirit that leaves one similarly unsatisfied and empty, just as when the body, or, i should say, your subconscious, tries to duplicate those feelings.
Thats how you can conclusively use feelings as evidence.
Feelings are demonstrably nerve impulses and chemicals shooting through your brain. Feelings are, even with our very limited comprehension of the brain, quite clearly physical events that can be manipulated physically.
How do you know the feeling is truth from God and not just your brain acting up? How do you know it's not Satan, for that matter, or an alien beaming rays into your cranium? More likely, how do you know it's not just the manifestation of years of social conditioning - which is the source of most feelings, like morality, aesthetic taste, etc? Why assume it's truth from god and not just the truth hammered into by your parents, peers and community?
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit. you learn to recognize those difference, like obifett said.
Why do you believe this? Do you have brain scans and hormone analysis? Do you have some information that Dr. Ramashandran has not come across in his intensive study of the religious aspects of the brain? Or is it because they "feel" different - which, I must say, is not a compelling argument in a discussion about the validity of feelings as evidence.
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit.
So we should be able to determine the difference empirically.
actually, yes.
the fruits of the Spirit are very observable outside of feelings too. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. Those who feel those things have fruits(deeds) that reflect those feelings. Service, kindness to other, selflessness, etc. Those are all things that come from listening to the Spirit and when you do those things, the feelings of peace, joy, love, etc come to your heart the same as when you learn about God and eternal truths.
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit.
So we should be able to determine the difference empirically.
actually, yes.
the fruits of the Spirit are very observable outside of feelings too. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.
You have not been reading the same bible I've been reading
"Of course you can tell the difference between feelings that come from God rather than the ones that come from you! You see, all the good feelings come from God."
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit.
So we should be able to determine the difference empirically.
actually, yes.
the fruits of the Spirit are very observable outside of feelings too. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. Those who feel those things have fruits(deeds) that reflect those feelings. Service, kindness to other, selflessness, etc. Those are all things that come from listening to the Spirit and when you do those things, the feelings of peace, joy, love, etc come to your heart the same as when you learn about God and eternal truths.
Feelings are demonstrably nerve impulses and chemicals shooting through your brain. Feelings are, even with our very limited comprehension of the brain, quite clearly physical events that can be manipulated physically.
How do you know the feeling is truth from God and not just your brain acting up? How do you know it's not Satan, for that matter, or an alien beaming rays into your cranium? More likely, how do you know it's not just the manifestation of years of social conditioning - which is the source of most feelings, like morality, aesthetic taste, etc? Why assume it's truth from god and not just the truth hammered into by your parents, peers and community?
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit. you learn to recognize those difference, like obifett said.
in fact, sometimes, i want to believe things are true and my body begins to try to duplicate Spiritual feelings. Those imitations leave one feeling confused and not satisfied in the mind and heart. True feelings from the Spirit leave one feeling satisfied and uplifted. The difference is there, you just have to pay attention to it. Satan tries to replicate the feelings of the Spirit that leaves one similarly unsatisfied and empty, just as when the body, or, i should say, your subconscious, tries to duplicate those feelings.
Thats how you can conclusively use feelings as evidence.
how about you answer these questions with something a little better than "You'll just know when you feel it, if you feel it, non-believer!"
Anyways, so from what I read(skimmed, really, dinner is ready) all sorts of "sprituallity" are merely caused by nerve impulses in your brain. Also, since we are all defined by our social interactions, feelings of "God" are nothing more than your brain "acting up."
Interesting, because for a minute there I thought we had something called free will...
Remember? Free will? That silly, non-existent part of ourselves that...well, cannot exist because it can't be proven. So I'll remember that because I lived in an extremely religous area, mostly republican/conservative area too, that I am obviously just like them. After all, aren't we all just copies of our forefathers?
Also, since this took a shockingly predictable path towards a religous discussion, I'll post this on death:
It's inevitable, and I'd like to at least see my kids grow up before I go.
The bolded statement is why this is a pointless debate. I believe that feelings can be conduits to the truth. Not all feelings are conduits to the truth. But when its learned to distinguish "truth through feelings from God" from heartburn, then knowledge and progress can be obtained through feelings.
You however have never learned the above process and, from the sounds of your posts, never accept it as possible. You are effectively asking me to explain calculus (spirituality) without using numbers (feelings).
This is a pointless debate until you untie my hands by allowing feelings to be an acceptable form of gaining knowledge.
Knowledge in what sense?
That rather implies that feelings allow you to know something.
I think you need to amend your statement to "feelings allow me to gain belief in something" or else give an example of how feelings informed you of a fact that we all agree is a fact. Illustrate your point with some experience in which feelings revealled a truth to you that is observably true.
Because I think all of us have had the experience of feelings deceiving us. We think that girl likes us, someone is out to get us, that the investment is a good one, that nothing bad will happen if we take a risk etc. Later it turns out that was wishful thinking, or otherwise erroneous.
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit.
So we should be able to determine the difference empirically.
actually, yes.
the fruits of the Spirit are very observable outside of feelings too. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. Those who feel those things have fruits(deeds) that reflect those feelings. Service, kindness to other, selflessness, etc. Those are all things that come from listening to the Spirit and when you do those things, the feelings of peace, joy, love, etc come to your heart the same as when you learn about God and eternal truths.
I have not observed a lack of these qualities in atheists. Apparently other causes also give rise to these qualities.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
That rather implies that feelings allow you to know something.
I think you need to amend your statement to "feelings allow me to gain belief in something" or else give an example of how feelings informed you of a fact that we all agree is a fact. Illustrate your point with some experience in which feelings revealled a truth to you that is observably true.
I could amend the statement to "sometimes feelings strengthen my belief in something while other times truth is given through feelings". Alot of the examples I have are actually very special to me so I hope you understand me not wanting to type them on the internet. But a more basic example could be the following:
- I was one of those LDS Missionaries that went around knocking on doors and stuff. In one of my areas the wards (congregations) we were assigned to only consisted of married students. Literally. You had to be married and a student to go to this ward. So the people we could teach had to be able to go to this ward. This limited us to only a very small percentage of a very large city. We would literally knock on doors and never run across one married couple that was also attended the university. At the end of one day, while in the car (yeah, I never had to ride a bike) I was just really sick of not meeting anyone who we could actually teach. In one of my most sincere prayers in my life, I asked that we be directed to just one non-member married student family. I just wanted one chance to talk to someone that could be taught by us. I felt nothing. Eh, I thought, I guess we're done for the day. About 3 minutes later, we passed a group of houses and I had one of the strongest feelings like I should knock on a specific house and we would meet someone there we could teach. We knocked, and sure enough it was a non-member married student family. A feeling in that instance = knowledge of something I could not have known in any other way.
Because I think all of us have had the experience of feelings deceiving us. We think that girl likes us, someone is out to get us, that the investment is a good one, that nothing bad will happen if we take a risk etc. Later it turns out that was wishful thinking, or otherwise erroneous.
The reality is that I have had my own feeling deceive me plenty of times. The difference is that I knew they were my own feelings prior to the results of that feeling. But, I have also had many experiences feeling something that can not be generated by my own physiology. This has been proven to me time and time again to come from God.
This is how I know there is something after this life. So death is not the end. Its just a new path that has limitless possibilities for us.
edit: ah geez. what a crazy first post of a page for debate and discourse...
This has been proven to me time and time again to come from God.
Why can't these feelings have come from you? For that matter, why couldn't these feelings have come from Athena? Sure, you say in your example that your feelings came to you after praying to God, but Athena is a just and merciful goddess and heeds even those prayers not directed towards Her, for She has no need of worship and is happy to help others along on their paths, whatever they may be. And I know this to be true, because I feel in my heart that it is true.
I could amend the statement to "sometimes feelings strengthen my belief in something while other times truth is given through feelings". Alot of the examples I have are actually very special to me so I hope you understand me not wanting to type them on the internet. But a more basic example could be the following:
- I was one of those LDS Missionaries that went around knocking on doors and stuff. In one of my areas the wards (congregations) we were assigned to only consisted of married students. Literally. You had to be married and a student to go to this ward. So the people we could teach had to be able to go to this ward. This limited us to only a very small percentage of a very large city. We would literally knock on doors and never run across one married couple that was also attended the university. At the end of one day, while in the car (yeah, I never had to ride a bike) I was just really sick of not meeting anyone who we could actually teach. In one of my most sincere prayers in my life, I asked that we be directed to just one non-member married student family. I just wanted one chance to talk to someone that could be taught by us. I felt nothing. Eh, I thought, I guess we're done for the day. About 3 minutes later, we passed a group of houses and I had one of the strongest feelings like I should knock on a specific house and we would meet someone there we could teach. We knocked, and sure enough it was a non-member married student family. A feeling in that instance = knowledge of something I could not have known in any other way.
just out of curiousity, did you actually manage to get them to join?
also, what actually made "this feeling" the true divine hand of god lending help to your plight and for comparison, how many times did your most sincere prayers come true that also had "this feeling?"
Which is why what I hope happens after people is they get to play choose their own adventure for all of eternity, or until they decide to just cease to exist. Heaven with choirs of angels and shit like that is not my idea of a perfect existence. I can think of a billion things I'd rather do, and it'd be cool if I got a chance to do them.
That.. would be awesome. I'd star as the lead character in my very own RPG. With Godmode.
This is called confirmation bias. Consider two hypothetical scenarios:
1) I have a strange feeling that someone is watching me. I look around. No one is watching me.
2) I have a strange feeling that someone is watching me. I look around. Someone is watching me!
Which of these is more memorable? We have strange and irrational feelings about things all the time - we only remember them when they come true, and they give us this sense either that we have magical powers of some kind or that there's some kind of higher power at work or whatever. The truth is, though, that all we're experiencing is coincidence.
I have a friend who believes that she has some kind of metaphysical powers because sometimes when she's walking down the street at night a streetlight will go out when she's looking at it. Of course, this is absurd, but our brains are wired to find meaning in everything, including in coincidental events which have no meaning. Hence, confirmation bias and magical powers.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
yeah, yeah. "What if it was just a coincidence?" "What you are doing is called 'confirmation bias'." "If you are positive it comes from outside you, then how can you be certain it comes from where you think it is coming from?"
Trust me, I've been through all this in my head millions of times. I am an incredibly logical person. Philosophy and Computer Science major in college. I am not the kind of person to blindly believe in something that others tell me. I have been "all over the map" on this subject and have ended up where I am as a result of lots of contemplation, deep thought, and deductive reasoning.
The problem with stuff like this is that it can't be proven to someone else. I know what I have experienced in my life. The event I shared is incredibly minor to other things that have happened in my life. I know that others may think I am just remembering the times "I was right", but I know the difference between my own feelings and something more spiritual. The spiritual is different and has never been wrong.
Until we get the technology to beam feelings directly from one person to another, I can never prove what I am talking about. So this really doesn't belong in Debate and Discourse.
I will say that there is a next life. And its gonna rock. I've always wondered about people who think that existence just ceases when you die. That's some scary stuff. How do you not freak out when you think about it?
Mostly because I didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years before I did exist, and I figure I'll get back into the swing of it fairly easily.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
The transitions you listed are completely different because you do exist now. I think it would be a much easier transition to go from nothing to something, rather than from something to nothing. And when I say "easier", I mean one is amazing and the other is terrifying.
Mostly because I didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years before I did exist, and I figure I'll get back into the swing of it fairly easily.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
The transitions you listed are completely different because you do exist now. I think it would be a much easier transition to go from nothing to something, rather than from something to nothing. And when I say "easier", I mean one is amazing and the other is terrifying.
Personally I have a larger issue with believing in something so firmly that I stop applying reason to it, but that's just me.
Mostly because I didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years before I did exist, and I figure I'll get back into the swing of it fairly easily.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
The transitions you listed are completely different because you do exist now. I think it would be a much easier transition to go from nothing to something, rather than from something to nothing. And when I say "easier", I mean one is amazing and the other is terrifying.
Well it won't bother me then. Why should I let it worry me now?
Impermanence is a property of all things. The sooner and more completely you understand that, the happier you will be with what time you do have— which is more than ample, on the scale of things.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Mostly because I didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years before I did exist, and I figure I'll get back into the swing of it fairly easily.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
The transitions you listed are completely different because you do exist now. I think it would be a much easier transition to go from nothing to something, rather than from something to nothing. And when I say "easier", I mean one is amazing and the other is terrifying.
Personally I have a larger issue with believing in something so firmly that I stop applying reason to it, but that's just me.
Touche.
I'll make sure and shake your hand on the other side. 8-)
Mostly because I didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years before I did exist, and I figure I'll get back into the swing of it fairly easily.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
Yep. Pretty much.
Not existing is easy. Unless you believe in reincarnation (and perhaps even if you do), you too probably think you have not existed for a very long time and being back in that state again should hold no terrors.
However, I suppose I could see some terror in seeing your return to non-existence approach. In short, being dead holds no terrors. Dying might - depending on the circumstances.
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DVGNo. 1 Honor StudentNether Institute, Evil AcademyRegistered Userregular
Mostly because I didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years before I did exist, and I figure I'll get back into the swing of it fairly easily.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
The transitions you listed are completely different because you do exist now. I think it would be a much easier transition to go from nothing to something, rather than from something to nothing. And when I say "easier", I mean one is amazing and the other is terrifying.
Technically speaking, I don't believe in non-existance. The only thing that will cease is the supply of oxygen to my brain providing me with a continued moment-to-moment identity of self. My physical matter will decompose and go back into the natural cycle.
And worrying about my identity no longer existing doesn't exactly give me a lot of positives, so why fuss over it? I've got, hopefully, a whole lot of years between now and then, so I'm going to focus on doing that.
Knowledge in the sense that I know the thing that is confirmed to me through feelings is true.
Aren't you being a little bit arrogant? You have faith, not knowledge. Unless you are claiming some sort of prophetic power.
I could amend the statement to "sometimes feelings strengthen my belief in something while other times truth is given through feelings". Alot of the examples I have are actually very special to me so I hope you understand me not wanting to type them on the internet. But a more basic example could be the following:
- I was one of those LDS Missionaries that went around knocking on doors and stuff. In one of my areas the wards (congregations) we were assigned to only consisted of married students. Literally. You had to be married and a student to go to this ward. So the people we could teach had to be able to go to this ward. This limited us to only a very small percentage of a very large city. We would literally knock on doors and never run across one married couple that was also attended the university. At the end of one day, while in the car (yeah, I never had to ride a bike) I was just really sick of not meeting anyone who we could actually teach. In one of my most sincere prayers in my life, I asked that we be directed to just one non-member married student family. I just wanted one chance to talk to someone that could be taught by us. I felt nothing. Eh, I thought, I guess we're done for the day. About 3 minutes later, we passed a group of houses and I had one of the strongest feelings like I should knock on a specific house and we would meet someone there we could teach. We knocked, and sure enough it was a non-member married student family. A feeling in that instance = knowledge of something I could not have known in any other way.
Yeah, and when I was meditating alot and following Sant Mat I asked God to make a flower plant that hadn't even budded yet to bloom the next day, and it did. And I asked for a sign of falling stars and there were falling stars. And I even had experiences like the one you just described.
But these are pretty lame signs, aren't they? Flower plants bloom, stars fall, married people live in houses with doors. Ever seen a column of fire descend out of the night sky? Me neither. God seems rather reticent on giving signs that are unambiguously signs, and not coincidences.
The reality is that I have had my own feeling deceive me plenty of times. The difference is that I knew they were my own feelings prior to the results of that feeling. But, I have also had many experiences feeling something that can not be generated by my own physiology. This has been proven to me time and time again to come from God.
I find that unconvincing, for the simple reason that many people with contradictory religious beliefs, including myself, have also had profound religious feelings outside of everyday emotion. I have also undergone one or two serious bouts of depression, and I'm aware that what I "know" with certainty can be a fickle and untrue foundation.
Mostly because I didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years before I did exist, and I figure I'll get back into the swing of it fairly easily.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
I'm pretty terrified, actually. I imagine this is the main reason people like to believe in afterlifes and such.
My parents' dog just died, and a few years ago another dog—the one I grew up with—just died. It's tempting to believe they're in a "better place" but obviously that's not true. The patterns of brain activity that made up their consciousnesses no longer exist.
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why do you believe it isnt?
Because the word "spirituality" doesn't even mean anything. It's just a catch word people use to include everything that is supposedly transcendent of physical reality, because it's too hard to construct a coherent conceptual framework for that idea.
There is no reason to believe "spirituality" is a part of reality. Why do you believe it is? Spirituality was just invoked to suggest that feelings are worthwhile as evidence; if you invoke feelings to support spirituality, surely you will see that it is completely circular and unconvincing.
The bolded statement is why this is a pointless debate. I believe that feelings can be conduits to the truth. Not all feelings are conduits to the truth. But when its learned to distinguish "truth through feelings from God" from heartburn, then knowledge and progress can be obtained through feelings.
You however have never learned the above process and, from the sounds of your posts, never accept it as possible. You are effectively asking me to explain calculus (spirituality) without using numbers (feelings).
This is a pointless debate until you untie my hands by allowing feelings to be an acceptable form of gaining knowledge.
just as much as you believe that feelings cannot be used to clarify something or prove that something is true, we believe that they can be.
just because you dont believe something is true doesnt mean it isnt. meaning: you dont accept/believe that feelings coming from the Spirit can be used conclusively because you dont believe there is a Spirit to provide those feelings; such that you believe that any feeling comes from the person themselves and not an outside source and, therefore, you reject our conclusion that feelings can be used as conclusive evidence.
We believe that it is not the PERSON who creates the feelings. We believe it comes from an outside source. There is no way to duplicate these feelings without that source. They are extremely different than the feelings that my body creates when responding to earthly/secular things. But when pure and true knowledge is presented to a person, the feeling that comes with it is different than just "oh how interesting" or "i like that".
Its very real and part of this world's reality.
How do you know the feeling is truth from God and not just your brain acting up? How do you know it's not Satan, for that matter, or an alien beaming rays into your cranium? More likely, how do you know it's not just the manifestation of years of social conditioning - which is the source of most feelings, like morality, aesthetic taste, etc? Why assume it's truth from god and not just the truth hammered into by your parents, peers and community?
because there is a huge and obvious difference between those feelings my brain fires off and those that are put there by the Spirit. you learn to recognize those difference, like obifett said.
in fact, sometimes, i want to believe things are true and my body begins to try to duplicate Spiritual feelings. Those imitations leave one feeling confused and not satisfied in the mind and heart. True feelings from the Spirit leave one feeling satisfied and uplifted. The difference is there, you just have to pay attention to it. Satan tries to replicate the feelings of the Spirit that leaves one similarly unsatisfied and empty, just as when the body, or, i should say, your subconscious, tries to duplicate those feelings.
Thats how you can conclusively use feelings as evidence.
Why do you believe this? Do you have brain scans and hormone analysis? Do you have some information that Dr. Ramashandran has not come across in his intensive study of the religious aspects of the brain? Or is it because they "feel" different - which, I must say, is not a compelling argument in a discussion about the validity of feelings as evidence.
actually, yes.
the fruits of the Spirit are very observable outside of feelings too. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. Those who feel those things have fruits(deeds) that reflect those feelings. Service, kindness to other, selflessness, etc. Those are all things that come from listening to the Spirit and when you do those things, the feelings of peace, joy, love, etc come to your heart the same as when you learn about God and eternal truths.
You have not been reading the same bible I've been reading
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
And why should we believe this?
and he feels it, man.
how about you answer these questions with something a little better than "You'll just know when you feel it, if you feel it, non-believer!"
Anyways, so from what I read(skimmed, really, dinner is ready) all sorts of "sprituallity" are merely caused by nerve impulses in your brain. Also, since we are all defined by our social interactions, feelings of "God" are nothing more than your brain "acting up."
Interesting, because for a minute there I thought we had something called free will...
Remember? Free will? That silly, non-existent part of ourselves that...well, cannot exist because it can't be proven. So I'll remember that because I lived in an extremely religous area, mostly republican/conservative area too, that I am obviously just like them. After all, aren't we all just copies of our forefathers?
Also, since this took a shockingly predictable path towards a religous discussion, I'll post this on death:
It's inevitable, and I'd like to at least see my kids grow up before I go.
Knowledge in what sense?
That rather implies that feelings allow you to know something.
I think you need to amend your statement to "feelings allow me to gain belief in something" or else give an example of how feelings informed you of a fact that we all agree is a fact. Illustrate your point with some experience in which feelings revealled a truth to you that is observably true.
Because I think all of us have had the experience of feelings deceiving us. We think that girl likes us, someone is out to get us, that the investment is a good one, that nothing bad will happen if we take a risk etc. Later it turns out that was wishful thinking, or otherwise erroneous.
I have not observed a lack of these qualities in atheists. Apparently other causes also give rise to these qualities.
Knowledge in the sense that I know the thing that is confirmed to me through feelings is true.
I could amend the statement to "sometimes feelings strengthen my belief in something while other times truth is given through feelings". Alot of the examples I have are actually very special to me so I hope you understand me not wanting to type them on the internet. But a more basic example could be the following:
- I was one of those LDS Missionaries that went around knocking on doors and stuff. In one of my areas the wards (congregations) we were assigned to only consisted of married students. Literally. You had to be married and a student to go to this ward. So the people we could teach had to be able to go to this ward. This limited us to only a very small percentage of a very large city. We would literally knock on doors and never run across one married couple that was also attended the university. At the end of one day, while in the car (yeah, I never had to ride a bike) I was just really sick of not meeting anyone who we could actually teach. In one of my most sincere prayers in my life, I asked that we be directed to just one non-member married student family. I just wanted one chance to talk to someone that could be taught by us. I felt nothing. Eh, I thought, I guess we're done for the day. About 3 minutes later, we passed a group of houses and I had one of the strongest feelings like I should knock on a specific house and we would meet someone there we could teach. We knocked, and sure enough it was a non-member married student family. A feeling in that instance = knowledge of something I could not have known in any other way.
The reality is that I have had my own feeling deceive me plenty of times. The difference is that I knew they were my own feelings prior to the results of that feeling. But, I have also had many experiences feeling something that can not be generated by my own physiology. This has been proven to me time and time again to come from God.
This is how I know there is something after this life. So death is not the end. Its just a new path that has limitless possibilities for us.
edit: ah geez. what a crazy first post of a page for debate and discourse...
Or, you know, it could just've been coincedence.
just out of curiousity, did you actually manage to get them to join?
also, what actually made "this feeling" the true divine hand of god lending help to your plight and for comparison, how many times did your most sincere prayers come true that also had "this feeling?"
That.. would be awesome. I'd star as the lead character in my very own RPG. With Godmode.
:winky:
This is called confirmation bias. Consider two hypothetical scenarios:
1) I have a strange feeling that someone is watching me. I look around. No one is watching me.
2) I have a strange feeling that someone is watching me. I look around. Someone is watching me!
Which of these is more memorable? We have strange and irrational feelings about things all the time - we only remember them when they come true, and they give us this sense either that we have magical powers of some kind or that there's some kind of higher power at work or whatever. The truth is, though, that all we're experiencing is coincidence.
I have a friend who believes that she has some kind of metaphysical powers because sometimes when she's walking down the street at night a streetlight will go out when she's looking at it. Of course, this is absurd, but our brains are wired to find meaning in everything, including in coincidental events which have no meaning. Hence, confirmation bias and magical powers.
Trust me, I've been through all this in my head millions of times. I am an incredibly logical person. Philosophy and Computer Science major in college. I am not the kind of person to blindly believe in something that others tell me. I have been "all over the map" on this subject and have ended up where I am as a result of lots of contemplation, deep thought, and deductive reasoning.
The problem with stuff like this is that it can't be proven to someone else. I know what I have experienced in my life. The event I shared is incredibly minor to other things that have happened in my life. I know that others may think I am just remembering the times "I was right", but I know the difference between my own feelings and something more spiritual. The spiritual is different and has never been wrong.
Until we get the technology to beam feelings directly from one person to another, I can never prove what I am talking about. So this really doesn't belong in Debate and Discourse.
I will say that there is a next life. And its gonna rock. I've always wondered about people who think that existence just ceases when you die. That's some scary stuff. How do you not freak out when you think about it?
I was a late bloomer. Non existence wise.
Wait, what? You seriously have no issues with just ceasing to be? Like you no longer exist. That doesn't bother you in the slightest?
The transitions you listed are completely different because you do exist now. I think it would be a much easier transition to go from nothing to something, rather than from something to nothing. And when I say "easier", I mean one is amazing and the other is terrifying.
Well it won't bother me then. Why should I let it worry me now?
Impermanence is a property of all things. The sooner and more completely you understand that, the happier you will be with what time you do have— which is more than ample, on the scale of things.
Touche.
I'll make sure and shake your hand on the other side. 8-)
Not existing is easy. Unless you believe in reincarnation (and perhaps even if you do), you too probably think you have not existed for a very long time and being back in that state again should hold no terrors.
However, I suppose I could see some terror in seeing your return to non-existence approach. In short, being dead holds no terrors. Dying might - depending on the circumstances.
Technically speaking, I don't believe in non-existance. The only thing that will cease is the supply of oxygen to my brain providing me with a continued moment-to-moment identity of self. My physical matter will decompose and go back into the natural cycle.
And worrying about my identity no longer existing doesn't exactly give me a lot of positives, so why fuss over it? I've got, hopefully, a whole lot of years between now and then, so I'm going to focus on doing that.
Aren't you being a little bit arrogant? You have faith, not knowledge. Unless you are claiming some sort of prophetic power.
Yeah, and when I was meditating alot and following Sant Mat I asked God to make a flower plant that hadn't even budded yet to bloom the next day, and it did. And I asked for a sign of falling stars and there were falling stars. And I even had experiences like the one you just described.
But these are pretty lame signs, aren't they? Flower plants bloom, stars fall, married people live in houses with doors. Ever seen a column of fire descend out of the night sky? Me neither. God seems rather reticent on giving signs that are unambiguously signs, and not coincidences.
I find that unconvincing, for the simple reason that many people with contradictory religious beliefs, including myself, have also had profound religious feelings outside of everyday emotion. I have also undergone one or two serious bouts of depression, and I'm aware that what I "know" with certainty can be a fickle and untrue foundation.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Was he a gladiator?
heh heh
You would know, he was your father.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
My parents' dog just died, and a few years ago another dog—the one I grew up with—just died. It's tempting to believe they're in a "better place" but obviously that's not true. The patterns of brain activity that made up their consciousnesses no longer exist.