MorgensternICH BIN DER PESTVOGELDU KAMPFAFFE!Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
Say hello to Mary Jo, Ted.
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“Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
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David_TA fashion yes-man is no good to me.Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered Userregular
I was unhooked from all media for most of last night, so I just found this out. I'd heard rumblings over the last week that he was dying, but it still comes a blow, somehow.
Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc
Fuck fox news.
Darkchampion3d on
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc
Fuck fox news.
Actually, that's probably the most truthful reporting they've done in a while.
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MorgensternICH BIN DER PESTVOGELDU KAMPFAFFE!Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
The one time Fox gets their facts right, they get jumped on. They just can't win.
Morgenstern on
“Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
Its kinda sad that of the three brothers (JFK,RFK and Ted), Ted achived the most politicaly. Sad that a generation of great (but flawed) men where stopped before they could do more.
And people wonder why I don't like people carrying guns to political rallys.
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The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc
Fuck fox news.
Actually, that's probably the most truthful reporting they've done in a while.
No account of Kennedy's life would be complete without the Chappaquiddick scandal, but emphasis is important. His flawed personal life is not relevant to his enormous professional accomplishment, and frankly the latter is much more important to the country.
Chappaquiddick is also a pretty astounding story, unfortunately, illustrating how the well-connected get a free pass from the courts.
Not like it alters the moral calculus of a dead woman, but I thought it was interesting that Kennedy endorsed Obama over Clinton and explicitly made a point about political dynasties being problematic. I hope we move further and further away from that kind of thing.
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc
Fuck fox news.
Actually, that's probably the most truthful reporting they've done in a while.
No account of Kennedy's life would be complete without the Chappaquiddick scandal, but emphasis is important. His flawed personal life is not relevant to his enormous professional accomplishment, and frankly the latter is much more important to the country.
Exactly. Everyone knows that he fucked up and got a girl killed when he was younger. We also know that had he been one of us unconnected normal folk, his ass would have probably went to jail.
But, on a national scale (and even global scale in some instances) compared to what he has done it is almost irrelevant.
Darkchampion3d on
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
matt has a problem on
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
What do you want us to say?
Chappaquiddick was a terrible thing.
Ted Kennedy was a great legislator.
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
What do you want us to say?
Chappaquiddick was a terrible thing.
Ted Kennedy was a great legislator.
Saying that we ought to forget what happened, and Kennedy's irresponsibility in the face of it, is ridiculous. It doesn't change what he accomplished as a legislator, but it isn't as though it was some youthful indiscretion that should just be washed away.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
Senjutsu on
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Saying that we ought to forget what happened, and Kennedy's irresponsibility in the face of it, is ridiculous. It doesn't change what he accomplished as a legislator, but it isn't as though it was some youthful indiscretion that should just be washed away.
He was 37 at the time, so it wasn't exactly a "youthful" indiscretion. But again, what are we supposed to say about it? What can we say about it other than "it was terrible"? What amount of agonizing over it are we supposed to do in order to keep from "washing it away"?
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
And I don't think people are complaining that Fox is taking a balanced look at his life
their coverage is along the lines of DID HE GET AWAY WITH MURDER and oh yeah he was in politics I guess
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
The obituary of a major public figure is supposed to evaluate that person's life. If we're not allowed to reevaluate the importance of a major scandal after 40 exemplary years have passed, then what's the point of even mentioning it?
Saying that we ought to forget what happened, and Kennedy's irresponsibility in the face of it, is ridiculous. It doesn't change what he accomplished as a legislator, but it isn't as though it was some youthful indiscretion that should just be washed away.
He was 37 at the time, so it wasn't exactly a "youthful" indiscretion. But again, what are we supposed to say about it? What can we say about it other than "it was terrible"? What amount of agonizing over it are we supposed to do in order to keep from "washing it away"?
250 words in every obituary or I reserve the right to be outraged.
It's an important part of Kennedy's story, though. You can't explain the arc of his career without mentioning it. You can't talk about the Kennedy family without having a discussion about dynasty and priviledge, and it's the most obvious place to start that discussion.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
The obituary of a major public figure is supposed to evaluate that person's life. If we're not allowed to reevaluate the importance of a major scandal after 40 exemplary years have passed, then what's the point of even mentioning it?
...which is why I was responding to Pants' comment, and not Fox's coverage, or an obituary.
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.
It's interesting in that respect, that his life following the incident is pretty much textbook seeking redemption by helping everyone he could.
But no matter the actions, some people seem lacking in the forgiveness category.
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.
Penance only means you've paid for your transgression, and redemption only means you've managed to become a better person than the one you were when you transgressed. Neither change what happened, or the terribleness of it. And like Dyscord said, without that one event, Carter would've had almost no ammo running against Kennedy in the presidential primary, which would've almost completely negated Reagan's October Surprise. No one can say whether Kennedy would've won of course, but without Chappaquiddick he would've actually had a chance.
Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.
A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.
Penance only means you've paid for your transgression, and redemption only means you've managed to become a better person than the one you were when you transgressed. Neither change what happened, or the terribleness of it. And like Dyscord said, without that one event, Carter would've had almost no ammo running against Kennedy in the presidential primary, which would've almost completely negated Reagan's October Surprise. No one can say whether Kennedy would've won of course, but without Chappaquiddick he would've actually had a chance.
The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.
The only things you've posted in this thread are a single post about the senate appointment changes being bullshit, and Chappaquiddick.
Anywho, Redemption typically involves forgiveness for the transgressions. That's the redeemed part. While they still exist, they're no longer considered to be what defines you. In Kennedy's case, I think it's entirely safe to say that at the time of his death, he was defined by his long and rather stellar senate career moreso than a single event fourty years ago. While it can still be mentioned of course (it's historical and fact!), it's not the summation of his life.
Anyone know if the Fox and Friends covered this delicately and respectfully?
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MorgensternICH BIN DER PESTVOGELDU KAMPFAFFE!Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
Surprised no one has mentioned his misadventures at Harvard and his time in the US Army.
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“Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Surprised no one has mentioned his misadventures at Harvard and his time in the US Army.
Well if we can forgive killing a woman while driving drunk than it isn't much of a problem to forgive cheating at Harvard.
There is no doubt that Ted Kennedy enjoyed incredible privileges. His virtue was in how he used his privilege to the immsense benefit of those without it.
Kennedy was a terrorist sympathiser and fund-raiser. Not a great man. I don't know why the news in the UK is leading with this; he was never President, never even a party's presidential candidate.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Kennedy was a terrorist sympathiser and fund-raiser. Not a great man. I don't know why the news in the UK is leading with this; he was never President, never even a party's presidential candidate.
I'm assuming that you're talking about the IRA? I've actually never heard of a connection between Ted Kennedy and the IRA, but if there was one it really isn't surprising.
Also Ted Kennedy is more important than many former presidents.
Kennedy was a terrorist sympathiser and fund-raiser. Not a great man. I don't know why the news in the UK is leading with this; he was never President, never even a party's presidential candidate.
That is a good question. I have no idea why any country outside the US would be interested in his death.
Surprised no one has mentioned his misadventures at Harvard and his time in the US Army.
Oh hey, surprised no one has mentioned a single legislative success of his.
Literally. In this thread. All that happened so far was that PantsB made a single indirect reference to the Civil Rights Act. So before this becomes just a little too much of an underhanded-Who?-Me?-twist-the-knife? exercise, let me list a few of the bills he's particularly known for:
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965
Brokering a peace accord in Northern Ireland
Title IX
Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986
COBRA insurance
Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
SCHIP
etc.
EDIT: Well, I guess the debate has the benefit of not being "underhanded" any more.
Posts
He'll be missed.
Fuck fox news.
And people wonder why I don't like people carrying guns to political rallys.
No account of Kennedy's life would be complete without the Chappaquiddick scandal, but emphasis is important. His flawed personal life is not relevant to his enormous professional accomplishment, and frankly the latter is much more important to the country.
Not like it alters the moral calculus of a dead woman, but I thought it was interesting that Kennedy endorsed Obama over Clinton and explicitly made a point about political dynasties being problematic. I hope we move further and further away from that kind of thing.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Exactly. Everyone knows that he fucked up and got a girl killed when he was younger. We also know that had he been one of us unconnected normal folk, his ass would have probably went to jail.
But, on a national scale (and even global scale in some instances) compared to what he has done it is almost irrelevant.
What do you want us to say?
Chappaquiddick was a terrible thing.
Ted Kennedy was a great legislator.
...
Which one of those things actually matters?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Saying that we ought to forget what happened, and Kennedy's irresponsibility in the face of it, is ridiculous. It doesn't change what he accomplished as a legislator, but it isn't as though it was some youthful indiscretion that should just be washed away.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.
Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.
Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
He was 37 at the time, so it wasn't exactly a "youthful" indiscretion. But again, what are we supposed to say about it? What can we say about it other than "it was terrible"? What amount of agonizing over it are we supposed to do in order to keep from "washing it away"?
And I don't think people are complaining that Fox is taking a balanced look at his life
their coverage is along the lines of DID HE GET AWAY WITH MURDER and oh yeah he was in politics I guess
The obituary of a major public figure is supposed to evaluate that person's life. If we're not allowed to reevaluate the importance of a major scandal after 40 exemplary years have passed, then what's the point of even mentioning it?
250 words in every obituary or I reserve the right to be outraged.
It's an important part of Kennedy's story, though. You can't explain the arc of his career without mentioning it. You can't talk about the Kennedy family without having a discussion about dynasty and priviledge, and it's the most obvious place to start that discussion.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.
It's interesting in that respect, that his life following the incident is pretty much textbook seeking redemption by helping everyone he could.
But no matter the actions, some people seem lacking in the forgiveness category.
The only things you've posted in this thread are a single post about the senate appointment changes being bullshit, and Chappaquiddick.
Anywho, Redemption typically involves forgiveness for the transgressions. That's the redeemed part. While they still exist, they're no longer considered to be what defines you. In Kennedy's case, I think it's entirely safe to say that at the time of his death, he was defined by his long and rather stellar senate career moreso than a single event fourty years ago. While it can still be mentioned of course (it's historical and fact!), it's not the summation of his life.
Well if we can forgive killing a woman while driving drunk than it isn't much of a problem to forgive cheating at Harvard.
There is no doubt that Ted Kennedy enjoyed incredible privileges. His virtue was in how he used his privilege to the immsense benefit of those without it.
I'm assuming that you're talking about the IRA? I've actually never heard of a connection between Ted Kennedy and the IRA, but if there was one it really isn't surprising.
Also Ted Kennedy is more important than many former presidents.
That is a good question. I have no idea why any country outside the US would be interested in his death.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Oh hey, surprised no one has mentioned a single legislative success of his.
Literally. In this thread. All that happened so far was that PantsB made a single indirect reference to the Civil Rights Act. So before this becomes just a little too much of an underhanded-Who?-Me?-twist-the-knife? exercise, let me list a few of the bills he's particularly known for:
etc.
EDIT: Well, I guess the debate has the benefit of not being "underhanded" any more.