But as a victim of molestation by a man and rape by a woman, I've never wanted to do violence as much as when I see people wrongly accused of these things.
Yes. I have never been more angry and wanted to harm someone else more than when this person had accused me of being something that I personally abhor and attempt to live a life not being that way.
Well, I can certainly accept that it's a regional thing.
Edit: It's not just the Seattle Freeze. I've lived in Spokane and Seattle--very different cultures but almost identical bus behavior. I also did a bit of Googling and found this quote from someone in Kansas City:
On the bus, not only may you not play Corners, but you must be aware of your own personal space bubble and your own personal space footprint. When the bus is sparsely populated, this mostly isn't an issue. But on a crowded bus, you may have to set your groceries in your lap so someone can sit next to you.
You never know who that someone will be. I have sat next to attractive people and ugly people, smelly people and dressed-up people. Most don't strike up a conversation. It's the social contract that makes such violations of the personal space bubble tolerable: My shoulder may bump yours, but you won't have to put up with me saying hi.
Sometimes I appreciate this implicit contract of preserved anonymity and wish it would extend outside the bus.
I thought it was an interesting angle. I think there's something in the idea that, because certain normalacies are given up on the bus (the typical definitions of personal space don't apply when strangers sit right next to you on every bus ride), we become more reserved to create a new kind of personal space.
Shit, in Montana if you don't talk to strangers, you're the asshole.
I've had a bus, pull over on the side of the road and the bus driver told me to get my ass in the bus and out of the rain. I told them I didn't have any money to pay the fee and he she yelled at me even more that nobody asked for a fee. And as soon as I was on the bus I was involved in a conversation between all strangers.
So this idea that talking to a stranger means you want to fuck them, is completely foreign to my life experience.
And for the record I'm the type of person that (in most places) would probably be avoided based on looks, imagine grizzly adams... and you're pretty close to the mark.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
Well, I can certainly accept that it's a regional thing.
Edit: It's not just the Seattle Freeze. I've lived in Spokane and Seattle--very different cultures but almost identical bus behavior. I also did a bit of Googling and found this quote from someone in Kansas City:
On the bus, not only may you not play Corners, but you must be aware of your own personal space bubble and your own personal space footprint. When the bus is sparsely populated, this mostly isn't an issue. But on a crowded bus, you may have to set your groceries in your lap so someone can sit next to you.
You never know who that someone will be. I have sat next to attractive people and ugly people, smelly people and dressed-up people. Most don't strike up a conversation. It's the social contract that makes such violations of the personal space bubble tolerable: My shoulder may bump yours, but you won't have to put up with me saying hi.
Sometimes I appreciate this implicit contract of preserved anonymity and wish it would extend outside the bus.
I thought it was an interesting angle. I think there's something in the idea that, because certain normalacies are given up on the bus (the typical definitions of personal space don't apply when strangers sit right next to you on every bus ride), we become more reserved to create a new kind of personal space.
A regular we had downtown at the library nearly lost his cool and had a near breakdown because "everyone here in Omaha looks at you when you walk down the street and I ain't doing nothing". He was from Chicago.
I wonder if some of these people are living in big cities? I'd see where it'd be fairly easy to feel alone amongst hundreds of people in those places. Would we come across as aggressive and overbearing to them? Because if I walked down a street here and didn't look at the woman approaching me, I'd be considered potentially up to no good. Heck, if I see a someone walking up past me with a straightforward stare looking away and no headphones on, I'll usually give them a wide berth in case they're looking to try and do something.
But as a victim of molestation by a man and rape by a woman, I've never wanted to do violence as much as when I see people wrongly accused of these things.
Yes. I have never been more angry and wanted to harm someone else more than when this person had accused me of being something that I personally abhor and attempt to live a life not being that way.
Well, I can certainly accept that it's a regional thing.
Edit: It's not just the Seattle Freeze. I've lived in Spokane and Seattle--very different cultures but almost identical bus behavior.
I currently live in Cheney, and bus a lot to Spokane...
I find there are plenty of conversations going on in the buses here, but yeah it depends on the people.
People shouldn't find it weird that people want to be social in public. - At least, I wish this was so. There's too much fear, too much hate.
Do you bus in the mornings, afternoon, or evening? I've found morning buses to be quietest. I used to ride a 6:30 bus that was packed, but utterly silent. Maybe some people would find that depressing or oppressive, but I loved it. It had a peaceful, almost meditative atmosphere.
I wonder if some of these people are living in big cities?
I believe it is definitely a big city thing. It's just like that incident where they guy was having a seizure in the subway and fell on the tracks and a train was coming. Nobody did anything but one guy jumped down and laid on top of the guy and saved his life. Or how you see on the news where someone gets shot or stabbed at a gas station or school and all they do is use there phone to record and then steal a few things.
When I used to ride the train between San Diego and LA, rare was the time I didn't have a chatty stranger sit next to me. And I look like a giant, hairy surfer type. Little old ladies, rabid conservatives, weird men, I got them all and every time I was like FUCK I JUST WANT TO READ MY BOOK.
I barely have a clue who Melissa McEwan is but I have to say I love how people in this thread go on the warpath about folks calling Mike a rape apologist and now here folks are going on and on about how they think some feminist blogger acts around men, pulling out all the anti-feminist cliches.
I mean, goddamn.
If you read her post you'll see that she condemned flirting as reducing a woman to a sex object. In another blog post she basically says that being fat is not unhealthy at all, and that expressing concern about fatness just means that you think all women should conform to your standards of attractiveness.
Who cares?
EDIT: For content.
This is the thing I don't understand. Why didn't Mike just ignore it? If you offend someone (which is always going to happen when you write or do art or anything), then you don't necessarily have to bend over backwards to never offend them again, but just be cordial about it, and if people still complain, then you've done all you can. I don't understand why this had to be dragged out like it was.
Again: When someone accuses you of being [supportive/apologetic/contributing to] [heinous activity x] based on taking something completely out of context, the only proper response is a heartfelt and cheerful "Go fuck yourself." Telling Shakes and others to die in a fire was completely reasonable response; G&T didn't (and don't) deserve the bullshit they've received over this, which has been blown way the hell out of proportion.
Again: When someone accuses you of being [supportive/apologetic/contributing to] [heinous activity x] based on taking something completely out of context, the only proper response is a heartfelt and cheerful "Go fuck yourself." Telling Shakes and others to die in a fire was completely reasonable response; G&T didn't (and don't) deserve the bullshit they've received over this, which has been blown way the hell out of proportion.
You're confusing "only proper response" with "worst possible response."
Nobody wins a "Who Can Be a Bigger Douchebag" contest. Everyone loses.
The bus law is just an extension of the law regarding urinals in a men's room.
What it really means is that we have to change that part of our culture for public transportation to be successful.
In any case I don't think you're right Salvation. The right response is to try and have an actual discourse on the topic, and try to argue the side that the other individual is incorrect in some way. In a non-snarky way.
Again: When someone accuses you of being [supportive/apologetic/contributing to] [heinous activity x] based on taking something completely out of context, the only proper response is a heartfelt and cheerful "Go fuck yourself." Telling Shakes and others to die in a fire was completely reasonable response; G&T didn't (and don't) deserve the bullshit they've received over this, which has been blown way the hell out of proportion.
You're confusing "only proper response" with "worst possible response."
Nobody wins a "Who Can Be a Bigger Douchebag" contest. Everyone loses.
I'd have to agree that their response was hardly diplomatic. They probably should have just refused to respond at all. They certainly didn't owe anything even slightly resembling an apology, though.
I will not let a person control what I watch, read, or wear for the sake of there own "comfort", especially not a person I have not nor probably ever will meet.
Sorry to jump in here - the debate has moved a long way since discussion moved from the admin thread to D&D. It's strange to see so much focus put on Shakes - can't we agree that Mike is NOT a rape apologist and it's best just to ignore those who suggest otherwise? That said, it's also strange to see comments like the above - the impression that this is somehow a conversation about censorship.
So let's talk about t-shirts.
...especially not a person I have not nor probably ever will meet.
The people who care about Penny Arcade are talking about PAX. Noone cares if I hang out and have a beer with my budies wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt. It is worth talking about the effects of my behaviour on the community at PAX.
I will not let a person control what I ... wear
A noble sentiment - but the state isn't telling me not to wear a Dickwolves t-shirt. It's nice to have the privilege to wear, for the most part, what I like when I like. Not everyone has that same privilege. And it's no surprise your average geek feminist might observe that women, for example, can't wear what they like when they like; sometimes, if a woman dresses or behaves "wrong" it's "her fault" if she gets raped - "she was asking for it".
The point...
From the response comic to the present the message from PA has been directed at some imagined feminist Jack (Jane?) Thompson out to ruin the fun and not at the average fan who might care about an inclusive gamer culture. It is possible to like Penny Arcade and feel uncomfortable with a legion of /b/tards parading around in Dickwolves t-shirts just for the lulz.
So I say ignore the "teamrape" infants AND the "fucknopennyarcade" brigade - let's discuss how to create a welcoming atmosphere for everyone at PAX.
I'd have to agree that their response was hardly diplomatic. They probably should have just refused to respond at all. They certainly didn't owe anything even slightly resembling an apology, though.
I'd agree with you. An apology was not owed. But sometimes an unowed apology goes a long way towards separating the adults from the children.
"We're sorry that you were offended. Offending anyone is not our intention. But we stand by the humor of the strip, and do not agree that it requires further action."
It's that simple. Would the Shakesville crowd have been satisfied? Of course not. But some of my very rational female friends would be a lot more comfortable about attending PAX East.
The bus law is just an extension of the law regarding urinals in a men's room.
What it really means is that we have to change that part of our culture for public transportation to be successful.
In any case I don't think you're right Salvation. The right response is to try and have an actual discourse on the topic, and try to argue the side that the other individual is incorrect in some way. In a non-snarky way.
This presumes the other side is reasonable. In this specific instance, the other side was both unreasonable and, I would argue, not acting in good faith.
Again: When someone accuses you of being [supportive/apologetic/contributing to] [heinous activity x] based on taking something completely out of context, the only proper response is a heartfelt and cheerful "Go fuck yourself." Telling Shakes and others to die in a fire was completely reasonable response; G&T didn't (and don't) deserve the bullshit they've received over this, which has been blown way the hell out of proportion.
You're confusing "only proper response" with "worst possible response."
Nobody wins a "Who Can Be a Bigger Douchebag" contest. Everyone loses.
Clearly you've only lost "Who Can Be a Bigger Douchebag" contests!
And if PA really wants to make PAX more friendly for everyone, they will take yet another page out of the Montana handbook of etiquette, and remove all urinals, and replace them with a single trough filled with ice. That's the kind of environment that really brings people together.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
I don't like that you're arguing from some sort of chivalrous modern man claim, Frothulu. In fact, it is kind of insulting that you would think it okay to speak for the collective man while condemning the same for speaking for the collective woman.
He does have a pont though, there is nothing wrong with any reasonable guy taking great offence at being called a rapist or a rape sympathiser or whatever.
That's what annoys me about a lot of the feminist (and it pains me to dignify what they are by calling them feminists because to my mind they aren't) blogs linked to in this thread. They're sexist as hell! Any man who doesn't 100% go along with their views is some sort of sub human animal who can bearly contain his desire to molest women.
The problem is when you're dealing with any extremists rationality and common sense go out the window. A timely apology would have probably stymied the flow of vitriol but the extremists would have either claimed a victory and disparaged PA/M&J for something or another or not accepted it and continued the tirade. It's been seen time and time again in the nation's politics and I don't doubt the same would have happened to PA. The best solution would have been to ignore it completely, to not even acknowledge them or let them alter your behavior which also happens to be the hardest solution, especially for a pair of comedians like M&J.
I will not let a person control what I watch, read, or wear for the sake of there own "comfort", especially not a person I have not nor probably ever will meet.
Sorry to jump in here - the debate has moved a long way since discussion moved from the admin thread to D&D. It's strange to see so much focus put on Shakes - can't we agree that Mike is NOT a rape apologist and it's best just to ignore those who suggest otherwise? That said, it's also strange to see comments like the above - the impression that this is somehow a conversation about censorship.
I have to bed, but I feel the need to defend myself in this regard. How is it not censorship? "This offends me. Remove it."
So let's talk about t-shirts.
...especially not a person I have not nor probably ever will meet.
The people who care about Penny Arcade are talking about PAX. Noone cares if I hang out and have a beer with my budies wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt. It is worth talking about the effects of my behaviour on the community at PAX.
I fail to see how a t-shirt can make you more or less well behaved.
I will not let a person control what I ... wear
A noble sentiment - but the state isn't telling me not to wear a Dickwolves t-shirt. It's nice to have the privilege to wear, for the most part, what I like when I like. Not everyone has that same privilege. And it's no surprise your average geek feminist might observe that some women can't wear what they like when they like; sometimes, if a woman dresses or behaves "wrong" it's "her fault" if she gets raped - "she was asking for it".
Um, that came out of left field,
The point...
From the response comic to the present the message from PA has been directed at some imagined feminist Jack (Jane?) Thompson out to ruin the fun and not at the average fan who might care about an inclusive gamer culture. It is possible to like Penny Arcade and feel uncomfortable with a legion of /b/tards parading around in Dickwolves t-shirts just for the lulz.
So I say ignore the "teamrape" infants AND the "fucknopennyarcade" brigade - let's discuss how to create a welcoming atmosphere for everyone at PAX.
That may meen choosing not to act like a dick.
How am I a /b/tard simply for feeling that a free webcomic has the right to sell a shirt?
If anything, she's been very succesful at getting people to visit her blog.
Reguarding the origional comic, it didn't particularly stand out to me at first. looking at it again, I can see that if you identify with the slave, who is activly refused salvation by the character in a position of power who supposed to be a hero, it could drege up some really horrible feelings.
I had a very close friend of mine go basically insane, including several episodes of trying to get him checked into hospitals, keeping him from killing himself, etc. When something makes me recall it unexpectedly it can trigger a crushing feeling of helplessness; like a co-worker talking about how great Columbus was (my friend would often go on about historical figures; because he thought the voices in his head were John The Baptist, Einstien, Sacagawea...) that second-hand pain must be a tiny fraction of what a rape victim suffers, and I wouldn't wish a faction of what I feel on anyone.
But artists are not responsable for how you interpret their work. Reading some of those articles makes me think that some women would file a harrasment suit for being shown obsence pictures if given a roscarch test.
What I glean from the comic itself is that it acknowledges that rape is one of the worst possible things to happen. And that the 'hero' is amoral for not helping the victim; the 'hero' is not held up as a role model; G&T did not, for example use one of their comic avatars to play that role. In short, rape is very bad, and only bad people wouldn't save someone from it, much less actually do it.
If you always picture yourself as the victim, then... you'll always be the victim. If you allow someone who exerted control over you in the past to dictate your behavior now, you are keeping yourself trapped; and the only person who can free you is yourself. It's not nothing, it is a terrible thing to have happen, but get over it. Because "Living well is the best revenge". Rape is not about sex, it's about power. Don't let the perp have power over you. It won't get better instantly, and will be with you for the rest of your life, but if you don't even try to get better, you won't. and if you don't get better you may become an obsessive control freak determined to have power over everyone. Yeah, women don't physically rape men very often, but a psychologically damaged woman can exert control over some men in horrible ways.
People like McEwan are unintentionally harming rape victims, not only by being so over the top that they cause rape to be taken less seriously, but by perpetuating the control that rapists have over their victims. By being so hypersensitive to the topic, they themselves chill any rational discussion of the topic. They say themselves that if you say you were raped, people will accuse you of being a slut, so it remains shameful to talk about and victims remain silent. Rape needs to be an open topic, so that victims are not afraid to get help.
For her own sake she needs to give up, and start respecting others as equals if she wants to be treated with respect. Having a blog with such a dismissive tone towards others, along with labels like "dudebros" "apologists", etc. dosn't help her cause. A snappy comeback makes good entertainment, but poor debate. I don't care enough to read her blog to confirm if she claims to be a rape victim herself; but I presume she is given her blog on the topic combined with her need to have control over the situation. Power was taken from her, so she's mistakenly trying to take it from others, using emotional manipulation to perpetuate a cycle of abuse.
Excusing a perpetrator of emotional abuse because of past physical abuse is not a lot better than excusing physical abuse because of past emotional abuse, and it just keeps the cycle going. If a woman teaches her sons by example that women are weak powerless victims, and that men are rapists, don't be surprised if they grow up believing that, then acting on it.
Also, I'm surprised noone has mentioned Canola/Rapeseed yet. (having said that, I'm sure someone will between my hitting reply and submit)
I'd have to agree that their response was hardly diplomatic. They probably should have just refused to respond at all. They certainly didn't owe anything even slightly resembling an apology, though.
I'd agree with you. An apology was not owed. But sometimes an unowed apology goes a long way towards separating the adults from the children.
"We're sorry that you were offended. Offending anyone is not our intention. But we stand by the humor of the strip, and do not agree that it requires further action."
It's that simple. Would the Shakesville crowd have been satisfied? Of course not. But some of my very rational female friends would be a lot more comfortable about attending PAX East.
Gabe and Tycho do not control the minds of their fans.
Handling this better would not have erased the dichotomy that has risen out of the incident.
I honestly feel that if you're a person who's capable of being deeply offended by those you disagree with, PAX and cities in general are a major risk to you.
PAX has always been a gathering of different people who think differently coming to one central location to engage in one thing they all happen to enjoy. The only difference between this year and last year, is that people are aware of one common difference (between the old DS vs. PSP debate) and will be ACTIVELY seeking out engagement of discourse, or feuding.
Civil disagreements shouldn't be a problem, escalated disagreements should be dealt with appropriately.. If the thought of being offended by someone calling you out on your beliefs because of something you're wearing or the idea of being massively upset by what someone else is wearing, you probably shouldn't go to PAX.
Basically, if you care about dicks being dicks, you are only going to end up being hurt.
Yes, Gabe has handled this wrong, but honestly, he always handles things wrong. G&T are not geniuses, they themselves are pretty aware that they are dumb as hell in many areas of life and knowledge.
Responding well to this situation would honestly be completely out of character for them, imo. I understand that it's reasonable to wish that they had, but to expect that they had, I believe is unreasonable.
I can only hope that people move on, that those who are easily offended don't put themselves in places that they'll be harmed, and that if there are less people at PAX that maybe that will mean smaller crowds and a much less likely chance that I might offend someone for being myself or liking this comic.
The problem is when you're dealing with any extremists rationality and common sense go out the window. A timely apology would have probably stymied the flow of vitriol but the extremists would have either claimed a victory and disparaged PA/M&J for something or another or not accepted it and continued the tirade. It's been seen time and time again in the nation's politics and I don't doubt the same would have happened to PA. The best solution would have been to ignore it completely, to not even acknowledge them or let them alter your behavior which also happens to be the hardest solution, especially for a pair of comedians like M&J.
The extremists were never going to be satisfied. You don't deal with this issue to satisfy the extremists. If you deal with it at all, you deal with it to satisfy the rational, uncertain middle.
My wife didn't find the original comic offensive. But she does have reservations about attending a convention spearheaded by a guy who uses his twitter feed to trivialize rape. My wife is a rational, level-headed gamer with a warped sense of humor. She's not an extremist. Neither are our other female friends who are now attending with apprehension. But it doesn't seem entirely unlikely that this may be our last PAX. I hope not, but I have the feeling there will be some uncomfortable moments around this issue, and it will have been entirely avoidable.
Responding well to this situation would honestly be completely out of character for them, imo. I understand that it's reasonable to wish that they had, but to expect that they had, I believe is unreasonable.
I can't understand this at all. You really believe it is unreasonable to expect a grown adult to react to a situation reasonably? I can't possibly agree with that.
PA isn't just a webcomic. They've taken it upon themselves to make it into a brand. By doing that, they've increased the expectations upon them and how they act.
Gabe and Tycho do not control the minds of their fans.
No, but they sure as hell influence them. PA is, to a very significant extent, a cult of personality.
They also publicly represent gamer culture. This is a mantle they have accepted, as evidenced by hosting an event called "The Penny Arcade Expo." And it is not unreasonable to criticize how they represent gamer culture, given that they make a decent living doing so.
Gabe and Tycho do not control the minds of their fans.
No, but they sure as hell influence them. PA is, to a very significant extent, a cult of personality.
They also publicly represent gamer culture. This is a mantle they have accepted, as evidenced by hosting an event called "The Penny Arcade Expo." And it is not unreasonable to criticize how they represent gamer culture, given that they make a decent living doing so.
This is like believing Moot has any control over 4chan.
I guess it's within their control to paint a target, but it's definitely nowhere within their control stop people from being angry dickheads over the internet.
This idea that everyone who dislikes the Dickwolves shirt is some kind of extremist is BS.
Look, do you think people who hate PA would talk about being hurt by this? Do you think people who never read PA would talk about how they're now feelling uncomfortable about the comic? Would someone who wasn't planning on going to PAX in the first place get upset when they're told they're going to be blacklisted for opting out?
Most of the people who are upset are not "extremists," they're other fans. They're you and your friends, who just happen to be on the other side.
People keep trying to paint this as a black and white "Pro-PA / Anti-PA" thing. It's not. The people upset love PA just as much as you do, that's why they're so upset. Because the creator of something they love just told them to fuck off.
Responding well to this situation would honestly be completely out of character for them, imo. I understand that it's reasonable to wish that they had, but to expect that they had, I believe is unreasonable.
I can't understand this at all. You really believe it is unreasonable to expect a grown adult to react to a situation reasonably? I can't possibly agree with that.
PA isn't just a webcomic. They've taken it upon themselves to make it into a brand. By doing that, they've increased the expectations upon them and how they act.
That's how YOU feel though.
Do you think they realize that? It's clear that they don't think of themselves as major figureheads if you watch PATV.
And I don't see either of them as normal grown adults, I see them as growing, yes, but they have lots of social issues that may have not been resolved. (see the topic of their anxiety)
They may not BE normal adults, they may not consider themselves part of a brand.
People seem to be assuming that they are, and that they do.
I assume they are who they say they are, thus I don't find it out of their character to do what they've done.
Yeah, the "fans" doing the attacking are 4chan trolls trying to get the most "lulz" from the situation as they can.
The thing that gets me is that up until kirbybits publicly connected the two (as far as I can gather, since the shirts were taken down soon after her post), no one rational would have thought wearing a Dickwolves shirt equaled being a supporter of "Team Rapist!" as she put it in her post. Now that the idea has been introduced and plastered across the internet it's a forgone conclusion. I bet that this is one of the reasons why the shirts were taken down, for fears of trolls buying and using it in such a manner. Now people who bought them based on the absurdity of a sports team with an animal as ridiculous as a dickwolf as its mascot are now grouped in with the idea of being "rape apologists." Basically the shitstorm that's been stirred up by this shit has done far more damage to her cause than anything else she could have done.
This is like believing Moot has any control over 4chan.
No.
4chan is not, basically, a Moot fanclub.
Moot does not make a living running 4chan.
Moot does not make guest appearances in major video games, or run what is arguably the most popular video gaming convention in the world, or hire a staff to run the 4chan brand.
It's not even close to the same thing. It doesn't matter if they WANT to be celebrity personalities. They are, and they get paid to do it. I have helped pay them to do it. I own t-shirts. i attend PAX. I have books. I am a fan.
That's why I'm pissed. Not because I'm offended. Because I'm being forced to choose between enjoying Penny Arcade and continuing to endorse the credo "Don't be a dick."
Gabe and Tycho do not control the minds of their fans.
No, but they sure as hell influence them. PA is, to a very significant extent, a cult of personality.
They also publicly represent gamer culture. This is a mantle they have accepted, as evidenced by hosting an event called "The Penny Arcade Expo." And it is not unreasonable to criticize how they represent gamer culture, given that they make a decent living doing so.
If gamer culture is represented by not caving into angry extremists looking to be offended, I'm more proud than ever to be a gamer.
When a blog author who says that all heterosexual sex is rape gets offended, they don't speak for women in general, they speak for a tiny minority of angry people who work themselves up into a lather over their pet issues.
Now, I also work myself up into a lather over my pet issues, but I'm going to claim moral superiority here because my pet issues are things like "tortures journalists," or "genocide," or "actually rapes women," as opposed to merely bitching about the fictional rape of fictional characters by imaginary dickwolves.
And you know what, fuck it, I'm going to climb on my high horse here: I volunteer as needed at a rape crisis center in my home town, which is one of the largest in the state, and which has a couple things that are really cutting edge. If people are merely bitching about fictional rape on the internet, they need to do something productive. If they are already doing that, then fine, but they shouldn't lie to themselves about it mattering. I consider arguments over the internet to be free time, not part of the time I owe to society to help improve it.
This is like believing Moot has any control over 4chan.
No.
4chan is not, basically, a Moot fanclub.
Moot does not make a living running 4chan.
Moot does not make guest appearances in major video games, or run what is arguably the most popular video gaming convention in the world, or hire a staff to run the 4chan brand.
It's not even close to the same thing. It doesn't matter if they WANT to be celebrity personalities. They are, and they get paid to do it. I have helped pay them to do it. I own t-shirts. i attend PAX. I have books. I am a fan.
That's why I'm pissed. Not because I'm offended. Because I'm being forced to choose between enjoying Penny Arcade and continuing to endorse the credo "Don't be a dick."
Groups in reality and groups in the real world are two separate animals. Most people interact with PA on an internet basis and that's where PA's reality has always been rooted. the part of PA that extends into reality is relatively new.
Being a fan of Penny Arcade can make you a dick? That's a really horrible way to connect things, imo.
Yeah, the "fans" doing the attacking are 4chan trolls trying to get the most "lulz" from the situation as they can.
The thing that gets me is that up until kirbybits publicly connected the two (as far as I can gather, since the shirts were taken down soon after her post), no one rational would have thought wearing a Dickwolves shirt equaled being a supporter of "Team Rapist!" as she put it in her post. Now that the idea has been introduced and plastered across the internet it's a forgone conclusion. I bet that this is one of the reasons why the shirts were taken down, for fears of trolls buying and using it in such a manner. Now people who bought them based on the absurdity of a sports team with an animal as ridiculous as a dickwolf as its mascot are now grouped in with the idea of being "rape apologists." Basically the shitstorm that's been stirred up by this shit has done far more damage to her cause than anything else she could have done.
No, I think that's crap. Even a half-assedly thoughtful reading of context demonstrates that 'team dickwolf' identifies the wearer with the wrong side of that joke. People who failed to notice that aren't evil, but they aren't right to keep denying it once its pointed out to them.
So, 39 pages. I guess we're now in the spiral of "I didn't read the thread but let me post my opinion because no-one can possibly have written out my argument already"?
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
I'm going to say this once, and politely: you're wrong here, your arguments, such as they are, have been debunked multiple times in this thread alone, and your language is inflammatory and unconstructive. I suggest you read the thread and then proofread your posts.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
This post.
Jesus christ. "Look it's not like we forcibly cut off your genitals like other places so STFU!"
If gamer culture is represented by not caving into angry extremists looking to be offended, I'm more proud than ever to be a gamer.
Not caving is one thing.
But when someone accuses you of trivializing rape, and you want to prove them wrong, the best course of action may not be to trivialize rape.
They didn't do that.
Again, it wasn't just angry extremists offended by the original comic. It was also rape victims.
Well, rape victims come from all walks of life, including angry extremists.
It's easy to stereotype your ideological opponent. It's seldom accurate, but it's easy.
It's often scarily accurate. I might just be good at it though.
Edit: I'm sure there was probably one person, maybe even a small handful, in the entire world who was offended in a reasonable way, but this situation is the webcomic equivalent of the Parental Television Council: manufactured outrage from people who aren't actually customers.
Yeah, the "fans" doing the attacking are 4chan trolls trying to get the most "lulz" from the situation as they can.
The thing that gets me is that up until kirbybits publicly connected the two (as far as I can gather, since the shirts were taken down soon after her post), no one rational would have thought wearing a Dickwolves shirt equaled being a supporter of "Team Rapist!" as she put it in her post. Now that the idea has been introduced and plastered across the internet it's a forgone conclusion. I bet that this is one of the reasons why the shirts were taken down, for fears of trolls buying and using it in such a manner. Now people who bought them based on the absurdity of a sports team with an animal as ridiculous as a dickwolf as its mascot are now grouped in with the idea of being "rape apologists." Basically the shitstorm that's been stirred up by this shit has done far more damage to her cause than anything else she could have done.
No, I think that's crap. Even a half-assedly thoughtful reading of context demonstrates that 'team dickwolf' identifies the wearer with the wrong side of that joke. People who failed to notice that aren't evil, but they aren't right to keep denying it once its pointed out to them.
So, 39 pages. I guess we're now in the spiral of "I didn't read the thread but let me post my opinion because no-one can possibly have written out my argument already"?
The wrong side? People who support Mubarak are on the wrong side. People who wear a tshirt are, at worst, guilty of a bad sense of humor.
If someone never slept and lived a hundred years, they couldn't afford to meaningfully take sides in everything that matters. So using language that suggests this is meaningful when it is in fact penny ante bullshit is missing the point.
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Yeah that's why I edited that comment out. 'Cause of things I didn't know about the situation like this tidbit.
Yes. I have never been more angry and wanted to harm someone else more than when this person had accused me of being something that I personally abhor and attempt to live a life not being that way.
Edit: It's not just the Seattle Freeze. I've lived in Spokane and Seattle--very different cultures but almost identical bus behavior. I also did a bit of Googling and found this quote from someone in Kansas City:
I thought it was an interesting angle. I think there's something in the idea that, because certain normalacies are given up on the bus (the typical definitions of personal space don't apply when strangers sit right next to you on every bus ride), we become more reserved to create a new kind of personal space.
I've had a bus, pull over on the side of the road and the bus driver told me to get my ass in the bus and out of the rain. I told them I didn't have any money to pay the fee and he she yelled at me even more that nobody asked for a fee. And as soon as I was on the bus I was involved in a conversation between all strangers.
So this idea that talking to a stranger means you want to fuck them, is completely foreign to my life experience.
And for the record I'm the type of person that (in most places) would probably be avoided based on looks, imagine grizzly adams... and you're pretty close to the mark.
A regular we had downtown at the library nearly lost his cool and had a near breakdown because "everyone here in Omaha looks at you when you walk down the street and I ain't doing nothing". He was from Chicago.
I wonder if some of these people are living in big cities? I'd see where it'd be fairly easy to feel alone amongst hundreds of people in those places. Would we come across as aggressive and overbearing to them? Because if I walked down a street here and didn't look at the woman approaching me, I'd be considered potentially up to no good. Heck, if I see a someone walking up past me with a straightforward stare looking away and no headphones on, I'll usually give them a wide berth in case they're looking to try and do something.
I currently live in Cheney, and bus a lot to Spokane...
I find there are plenty of conversations going on in the buses here, but yeah it depends on the people.
People shouldn't find it weird that people want to be social in public. - At least, I wish this was so. There's too much fear, too much hate.
Snark?
Do you bus in the mornings, afternoon, or evening? I've found morning buses to be quietest. I used to ride a 6:30 bus that was packed, but utterly silent. Maybe some people would find that depressing or oppressive, but I loved it. It had a peaceful, almost meditative atmosphere.
I believe it is definitely a big city thing. It's just like that incident where they guy was having a seizure in the subway and fell on the tracks and a train was coming. Nobody did anything but one guy jumped down and laid on top of the guy and saved his life. Or how you see on the news where someone gets shot or stabbed at a gas station or school and all they do is use there phone to record and then steal a few things.
I can imagine morning buses being silent, considering the majority of the riders are probably pissed that they're awake in the first place.
Again: When someone accuses you of being [supportive/apologetic/contributing to] [heinous activity x] based on taking something completely out of context, the only proper response is a heartfelt and cheerful "Go fuck yourself." Telling Shakes and others to die in a fire was completely reasonable response; G&T didn't (and don't) deserve the bullshit they've received over this, which has been blown way the hell out of proportion.
You're confusing "only proper response" with "worst possible response."
Nobody wins a "Who Can Be a Bigger Douchebag" contest. Everyone loses.
What it really means is that we have to change that part of our culture for public transportation to be successful.
In any case I don't think you're right Salvation. The right response is to try and have an actual discourse on the topic, and try to argue the side that the other individual is incorrect in some way. In a non-snarky way.
Steam: CavilatRest
I'd have to agree that their response was hardly diplomatic. They probably should have just refused to respond at all. They certainly didn't owe anything even slightly resembling an apology, though.
Sorry to jump in here - the debate has moved a long way since discussion moved from the admin thread to D&D. It's strange to see so much focus put on Shakes - can't we agree that Mike is NOT a rape apologist and it's best just to ignore those who suggest otherwise? That said, it's also strange to see comments like the above - the impression that this is somehow a conversation about censorship.
So let's talk about t-shirts. The people who care about Penny Arcade are talking about PAX. Noone cares if I hang out and have a beer with my budies wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt. It is worth talking about the effects of my behaviour on the community at PAX. A noble sentiment - but the state isn't telling me not to wear a Dickwolves t-shirt. It's nice to have the privilege to wear, for the most part, what I like when I like. Not everyone has that same privilege. And it's no surprise your average geek feminist might observe that women, for example, can't wear what they like when they like; sometimes, if a woman dresses or behaves "wrong" it's "her fault" if she gets raped - "she was asking for it".
The point...
From the response comic to the present the message from PA has been directed at some imagined feminist Jack (Jane?) Thompson out to ruin the fun and not at the average fan who might care about an inclusive gamer culture. It is possible to like Penny Arcade and feel uncomfortable with a legion of /b/tards parading around in Dickwolves t-shirts just for the lulz.
So I say ignore the "teamrape" infants AND the "fucknopennyarcade" brigade - let's discuss how to create a welcoming atmosphere for everyone at PAX.
That may meen choosing not to act like a dick.
I'd agree with you. An apology was not owed. But sometimes an unowed apology goes a long way towards separating the adults from the children.
"We're sorry that you were offended. Offending anyone is not our intention. But we stand by the humor of the strip, and do not agree that it requires further action."
It's that simple. Would the Shakesville crowd have been satisfied? Of course not. But some of my very rational female friends would be a lot more comfortable about attending PAX East.
This presumes the other side is reasonable. In this specific instance, the other side was both unreasonable and, I would argue, not acting in good faith.
Clearly you've only lost "Who Can Be a Bigger Douchebag" contests!
And if PA really wants to make PAX more friendly for everyone, they will take yet another page out of the Montana handbook of etiquette, and remove all urinals, and replace them with a single trough filled with ice. That's the kind of environment that really brings people together.
He does have a pont though, there is nothing wrong with any reasonable guy taking great offence at being called a rapist or a rape sympathiser or whatever.
That's what annoys me about a lot of the feminist (and it pains me to dignify what they are by calling them feminists because to my mind they aren't) blogs linked to in this thread. They're sexist as hell! Any man who doesn't 100% go along with their views is some sort of sub human animal who can bearly contain his desire to molest women.
Fuck that noise.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Reguarding the origional comic, it didn't particularly stand out to me at first. looking at it again, I can see that if you identify with the slave, who is activly refused salvation by the character in a position of power who supposed to be a hero, it could drege up some really horrible feelings.
I had a very close friend of mine go basically insane, including several episodes of trying to get him checked into hospitals, keeping him from killing himself, etc. When something makes me recall it unexpectedly it can trigger a crushing feeling of helplessness; like a co-worker talking about how great Columbus was (my friend would often go on about historical figures; because he thought the voices in his head were John The Baptist, Einstien, Sacagawea...) that second-hand pain must be a tiny fraction of what a rape victim suffers, and I wouldn't wish a faction of what I feel on anyone.
But artists are not responsable for how you interpret their work. Reading some of those articles makes me think that some women would file a harrasment suit for being shown obsence pictures if given a roscarch test.
What I glean from the comic itself is that it acknowledges that rape is one of the worst possible things to happen. And that the 'hero' is amoral for not helping the victim; the 'hero' is not held up as a role model; G&T did not, for example use one of their comic avatars to play that role. In short, rape is very bad, and only bad people wouldn't save someone from it, much less actually do it.
If you always picture yourself as the victim, then... you'll always be the victim. If you allow someone who exerted control over you in the past to dictate your behavior now, you are keeping yourself trapped; and the only person who can free you is yourself. It's not nothing, it is a terrible thing to have happen, but get over it. Because "Living well is the best revenge". Rape is not about sex, it's about power. Don't let the perp have power over you. It won't get better instantly, and will be with you for the rest of your life, but if you don't even try to get better, you won't. and if you don't get better you may become an obsessive control freak determined to have power over everyone. Yeah, women don't physically rape men very often, but a psychologically damaged woman can exert control over some men in horrible ways.
People like McEwan are unintentionally harming rape victims, not only by being so over the top that they cause rape to be taken less seriously, but by perpetuating the control that rapists have over their victims. By being so hypersensitive to the topic, they themselves chill any rational discussion of the topic. They say themselves that if you say you were raped, people will accuse you of being a slut, so it remains shameful to talk about and victims remain silent. Rape needs to be an open topic, so that victims are not afraid to get help.
For her own sake she needs to give up, and start respecting others as equals if she wants to be treated with respect. Having a blog with such a dismissive tone towards others, along with labels like "dudebros" "apologists", etc. dosn't help her cause. A snappy comeback makes good entertainment, but poor debate. I don't care enough to read her blog to confirm if she claims to be a rape victim herself; but I presume she is given her blog on the topic combined with her need to have control over the situation. Power was taken from her, so she's mistakenly trying to take it from others, using emotional manipulation to perpetuate a cycle of abuse.
Excusing a perpetrator of emotional abuse because of past physical abuse is not a lot better than excusing physical abuse because of past emotional abuse, and it just keeps the cycle going. If a woman teaches her sons by example that women are weak powerless victims, and that men are rapists, don't be surprised if they grow up believing that, then acting on it.
Also, I'm surprised noone has mentioned Canola/Rapeseed yet. (having said that, I'm sure someone will between my hitting reply and submit)
Gabe and Tycho do not control the minds of their fans.
Handling this better would not have erased the dichotomy that has risen out of the incident.
I honestly feel that if you're a person who's capable of being deeply offended by those you disagree with, PAX and cities in general are a major risk to you.
PAX has always been a gathering of different people who think differently coming to one central location to engage in one thing they all happen to enjoy. The only difference between this year and last year, is that people are aware of one common difference (between the old DS vs. PSP debate) and will be ACTIVELY seeking out engagement of discourse, or feuding.
Civil disagreements shouldn't be a problem, escalated disagreements should be dealt with appropriately.. If the thought of being offended by someone calling you out on your beliefs because of something you're wearing or the idea of being massively upset by what someone else is wearing, you probably shouldn't go to PAX.
Basically, if you care about dicks being dicks, you are only going to end up being hurt.
Yes, Gabe has handled this wrong, but honestly, he always handles things wrong. G&T are not geniuses, they themselves are pretty aware that they are dumb as hell in many areas of life and knowledge.
Responding well to this situation would honestly be completely out of character for them, imo. I understand that it's reasonable to wish that they had, but to expect that they had, I believe is unreasonable.
I can only hope that people move on, that those who are easily offended don't put themselves in places that they'll be harmed, and that if there are less people at PAX that maybe that will mean smaller crowds and a much less likely chance that I might offend someone for being myself or liking this comic.
The extremists were never going to be satisfied. You don't deal with this issue to satisfy the extremists. If you deal with it at all, you deal with it to satisfy the rational, uncertain middle.
My wife didn't find the original comic offensive. But she does have reservations about attending a convention spearheaded by a guy who uses his twitter feed to trivialize rape. My wife is a rational, level-headed gamer with a warped sense of humor. She's not an extremist. Neither are our other female friends who are now attending with apprehension. But it doesn't seem entirely unlikely that this may be our last PAX. I hope not, but I have the feeling there will be some uncomfortable moments around this issue, and it will have been entirely avoidable.
No, but they sure as hell influence them. PA is, to a very significant extent, a cult of personality.
They also publicly represent gamer culture. This is a mantle they have accepted, as evidenced by hosting an event called "The Penny Arcade Expo." And it is not unreasonable to criticize how they represent gamer culture, given that they make a decent living doing so.
This is like believing Moot has any control over 4chan.
I guess it's within their control to paint a target, but it's definitely nowhere within their control stop people from being angry dickheads over the internet.
This is an inherent problem with the internet.
Look, do you think people who hate PA would talk about being hurt by this? Do you think people who never read PA would talk about how they're now feelling uncomfortable about the comic? Would someone who wasn't planning on going to PAX in the first place get upset when they're told they're going to be blacklisted for opting out?
Most of the people who are upset are not "extremists," they're other fans. They're you and your friends, who just happen to be on the other side.
People keep trying to paint this as a black and white "Pro-PA / Anti-PA" thing. It's not. The people upset love PA just as much as you do, that's why they're so upset. Because the creator of something they love just told them to fuck off.
The thing that gets me is that up until kirbybits publicly connected the two (as far as I can gather, since the shirts were taken down soon after her post), no one rational would have thought wearing a Dickwolves shirt equaled being a supporter of "Team Rapist!" as she put it in her post. Now that the idea has been introduced and plastered across the internet it's a forgone conclusion. I bet that this is one of the reasons why the shirts were taken down, for fears of trolls buying and using it in such a manner. Now people who bought them based on the absurdity of a sports team with an animal as ridiculous as a dickwolf as its mascot are now grouped in with the idea of being "rape apologists." Basically the shitstorm that's been stirred up by this shit has done far more damage to her cause than anything else she could have done.
No.
4chan is not, basically, a Moot fanclub.
Moot does not make a living running 4chan.
Moot does not make guest appearances in major video games, or run what is arguably the most popular video gaming convention in the world, or hire a staff to run the 4chan brand.
It's not even close to the same thing. It doesn't matter if they WANT to be celebrity personalities. They are, and they get paid to do it. I have helped pay them to do it. I own t-shirts. i attend PAX. I have books. I am a fan.
That's why I'm pissed. Not because I'm offended. Because I'm being forced to choose between enjoying Penny Arcade and continuing to endorse the credo "Don't be a dick."
If gamer culture is represented by not caving into angry extremists looking to be offended, I'm more proud than ever to be a gamer.
When a blog author who says that all heterosexual sex is rape gets offended, they don't speak for women in general, they speak for a tiny minority of angry people who work themselves up into a lather over their pet issues.
Now, I also work myself up into a lather over my pet issues, but I'm going to claim moral superiority here because my pet issues are things like "tortures journalists," or "genocide," or "actually rapes women," as opposed to merely bitching about the fictional rape of fictional characters by imaginary dickwolves.
And you know what, fuck it, I'm going to climb on my high horse here: I volunteer as needed at a rape crisis center in my home town, which is one of the largest in the state, and which has a couple things that are really cutting edge. If people are merely bitching about fictional rape on the internet, they need to do something productive. If they are already doing that, then fine, but they shouldn't lie to themselves about it mattering. I consider arguments over the internet to be free time, not part of the time I owe to society to help improve it.
Groups in reality and groups in the real world are two separate animals. Most people interact with PA on an internet basis and that's where PA's reality has always been rooted. the part of PA that extends into reality is relatively new.
Being a fan of Penny Arcade can make you a dick? That's a really horrible way to connect things, imo.
Not caving is one thing.
But when someone accuses you of trivializing rape, and you want to prove them wrong, the best course of action may not be to trivialize rape.
Again, it wasn't just angry extremists offended by the original comic. It was also rape victims.
It's easy to stereotype your ideological opponent. It's seldom accurate, but it's easy.
No, I think that's crap. Even a half-assedly thoughtful reading of context demonstrates that 'team dickwolf' identifies the wearer with the wrong side of that joke. People who failed to notice that aren't evil, but they aren't right to keep denying it once its pointed out to them.
So, 39 pages. I guess we're now in the spiral of "I didn't read the thread but let me post my opinion because no-one can possibly have written out my argument already"?
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
I'm going to say this once, and politely: you're wrong here, your arguments, such as they are, have been debunked multiple times in this thread alone, and your language is inflammatory and unconstructive. I suggest you read the thread and then proofread your posts.
This post.
Jesus christ. "Look it's not like we forcibly cut off your genitals like other places so STFU!"
Wow.
They didn't do that.
Well, rape victims come from all walks of life, including angry extremists.
It's often scarily accurate. I might just be good at it though.
Edit: I'm sure there was probably one person, maybe even a small handful, in the entire world who was offended in a reasonable way, but this situation is the webcomic equivalent of the Parental Television Council: manufactured outrage from people who aren't actually customers.
The wrong side? People who support Mubarak are on the wrong side. People who wear a tshirt are, at worst, guilty of a bad sense of humor.
If someone never slept and lived a hundred years, they couldn't afford to meaningfully take sides in everything that matters. So using language that suggests this is meaningful when it is in fact penny ante bullshit is missing the point.