I do have to give that Buffy has some fairly either epic, or awesome final episodes to end seasons. Graduation Day being my favorite, but the sequence at the end of Season 4 makes up for a lot of crap in 4.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
No, Bolivian Army Ending was definitely the way to go for Angel.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
The shansu apocalypse? That thing that we've been told since forever will happen? Not that I think it would be the end after all. How many apocalypses have there been? Six? Seven? That was supposed to be the biggest. I'd like to see it happen.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
The shansu apocalypse? That thing that we've been told since forever will happen? Not that I think it would be the end after all. How many apocalypses have there been? Six? Seven? That was supposed to be the biggest. I'd like to see it happen.
You mean the apocalypse that Lindsay laughed in Angel's face about because it wasn't about some big fight?
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
The shansu apocalypse? That thing that we've been told since forever will happen? Not that I think it would be the end after all. How many apocalypses have there been? Six? Seven? That was supposed to be the biggest. I'd like to see it happen.
You mean the apocalypse that Lindsay laughed in Angel's face about because it wasn't about some big fight?
Cite? Which episode was this? I remember him laughing at the idea of an "end" or winning against evil and then Angel responds with "maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
The shansu apocalypse? That thing that we've been told since forever will happen? Not that I think it would be the end after all. How many apocalypses have there been? Six? Seven? That was supposed to be the biggest. I'd like to see it happen.
You mean the apocalypse that Lindsay laughed in Angel's face about because it wasn't about some big fight?
Cite? Which episode was this? I remember him laughing at the idea of an "end" or winning against evil and then Angel responds with "maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
S5
"Underneath"
The one where they rescue Lindsay from the suburbs.
The specific quote:
Lindsey McDonald: The Apocalypse, man. You're soakin' in it. Spike: I've seen an Apocalypse or two in my time. I'd know if one was under my nose. Lindsey McDonald:Not *an* Apocalypse. *The* Apocalypse. What'd you-you think a gong was gonna sound? Time to jump on your horses and fight the big fight? Starting pistol went off a long time ago, boys. You're playin' for the bad guys. Every day you sit behind your desk and you-you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub. Heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it. Angel: You're saying that everything we do... it's a distraction to keep us busy from looking under the surface? Lindsey McDonald: [sarcastic] Ding! We got a winner. World keeps slidin' towards entropy and degradation. And what do you do? You sit in your big chair and you sign your checks, just like the Senior Partners planned. The war's here, Angel, and you're already two soldiers down.
His whole speech is the point. It's what ties into the end of the series and the whole thing in S2 culminating with dead-Holland Manners bringing him to the home office .... right on earth.
maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
And that's exactly the point. It's not a big battle. It's not a huge apocalypse you can win. It's an endless struggle. The apocalypse isn't coming, it's already here.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
The shansu apocalypse? That thing that we've been told since forever will happen? Not that I think it would be the end after all. How many apocalypses have there been? Six? Seven? That was supposed to be the biggest. I'd like to see it happen.
You mean the apocalypse that Lindsay laughed in Angel's face about because it wasn't about some big fight?
Cite? Which episode was this? I remember him laughing at the idea of an "end" or winning against evil and then Angel responds with "maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
S5
"Underneath"
The one where they rescue Lindsay from the suburbs.
The specific quote:
Lindsey McDonald: The Apocalypse, man. You're soakin' in it. Spike: I've seen an Apocalypse or two in my time. I'd know if one was under my nose. Lindsey McDonald:Not *an* Apocalypse. *The* Apocalypse. What'd you-you think a gong was gonna sound? Time to jump on your horses and fight the big fight? Starting pistol went off a long time ago, boys. You're playin' for the bad guys. Every day you sit behind your desk and you-you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub. Heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it. Angel: You're saying that everything we do... it's a distraction to keep us busy from looking under the surface? Lindsey McDonald: [sarcastic] Ding! We got a winner. World keeps slidin' towards entropy and degradation. And what do you do? You sit in your big chair and you sign your checks, just like the Senior Partners planned. The war's here, Angel, and you're already two soldiers down.
His whole speech is the point. It's what ties into the end of the series and the whole thing in S2 culminating with dead-Holland Manners bringing him to the home office .... right on earth.
maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
And that's exactly the point. It's not a big battle. It's not a huge apocalypse you can win. It's an endless struggle. The apocalypse isn't coming, it's already here.
Right, I forgot about that. I'd still like the universe to receive a little capstone. Not like a super-end of everything, thing. Just like an end. For the whole thing.
Yeah Angel finales tended to be more about wrapping up a story than being really big. Pretty sure they were all pretty awesome, but they felt more subtly played than Buffy's.
The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
The shansu apocalypse? That thing that we've been told since forever will happen? Not that I think it would be the end after all. How many apocalypses have there been? Six? Seven? That was supposed to be the biggest. I'd like to see it happen.
You mean the apocalypse that Lindsay laughed in Angel's face about because it wasn't about some big fight?
Cite? Which episode was this? I remember him laughing at the idea of an "end" or winning against evil and then Angel responds with "maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
S5
"Underneath"
The one where they rescue Lindsay from the suburbs.
The specific quote:
Lindsey McDonald: The Apocalypse, man. You're soakin' in it. Spike: I've seen an Apocalypse or two in my time. I'd know if one was under my nose. Lindsey McDonald:Not *an* Apocalypse. *The* Apocalypse. What'd you-you think a gong was gonna sound? Time to jump on your horses and fight the big fight? Starting pistol went off a long time ago, boys. You're playin' for the bad guys. Every day you sit behind your desk and you-you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub. Heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it. Angel: You're saying that everything we do... it's a distraction to keep us busy from looking under the surface? Lindsey McDonald: [sarcastic] Ding! We got a winner. World keeps slidin' towards entropy and degradation. And what do you do? You sit in your big chair and you sign your checks, just like the Senior Partners planned. The war's here, Angel, and you're already two soldiers down.
His whole speech is the point. It's what ties into the end of the series and the whole thing in S2 culminating with dead-Holland Manners bringing him to the home office .... right on earth.
maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
And that's exactly the point. It's not a big battle. It's not a huge apocalypse you can win. It's an endless struggle. The apocalypse isn't coming, it's already here.
Right, I forgot about that. I'd still like the universe to receive a little capstone. Not like a super-end of everything, thing. Just like an end. For the whole thing.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say; for me it didn't seem like much of an ending. It felt like they left too much unanswered and open ended.
Actually I wouldn't mind it if angel didn't even appearing(i'd be nice). Angels story is over there. His emotional development, his story arch is over. Buffy's isn't, Willows isn't(Well maybe now, what with all magic being taken away), Xander isn't.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Right, I forgot about that. I'd still like the universe to receive a little capstone. Not like a super-end of everything, thing. Just like an end. For the whole thing.
You mean specifically for Angel, not the whole thing because the point is that the whole thing doesn't end.
The 17 issue After the Fall does somewhat cap things off better, but part of the point of the ending is that the fight itself is neverending. I think that Lindsey's speech drove the point home to Angel that if he wanted to avert the apocalypse he'd have to create one. The end of Season 5 is him not playing by "their rules" anymore. He completely destroys the chance that WRH had of things going their way.
Right, I forgot about that. I'd still like the universe to receive a little capstone. Not like a super-end of everything, thing. Just like an end. For the whole thing.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say; for me it didn't seem like much of an ending. It felt like they left too much unanswered and open ended.
That's the point though. The whole idea of the end is that there isn't a big finish. There's no big fight, high five, ride off into the sunset ending. He can't really "win".
That's why that last words of the series are what they are: "Let's go to work"
It's not a one-shot adventure, it's a job. It's something you do every day.
if he wanted to avert the apocalypse he'd have to create one.
I've...never looked at it from that angle, but it makes complete and total sense. You just multiplied my appreciation for the finale -- which I thought was impossible to do, given that it's already one of my favorites.
if he wanted to avert the apocalypse he'd have to create one.
I've...never looked at it from that angle, but it makes complete and total sense. You just multiplied my appreciation for the finale -- which I thought was impossible to do, given that it's already one of my favorites.
I don't think it's very accurate at all.
Angel never talks about "creating his own apocalypse" or anything of the sort. What he talks about is, essentially, spitting in the eye of powers far greater then yourself.
He realises he can't really win. He can't end it all in one big battle and make everything happily ever after. What he can do, though, is kick the forces aligned against him so hard in the nutsack that they actually feel it. And realise that while they can kill him, they can't beat him. That he will not stop fighting.
The entire point is that the ending contains a certain sense of fatalism. He can't end or avert the apocalypse on his own, but he can slow it down, and that's all that matters. It's not about the end, it's about the road to that end, which has been the whole theme of the series since the start.
I feel bad when I watch Angel now because I can't wait for
Doyle to die so that Wesley will show up. The first time I really felt for Doyle and felt the sacrifice, but now my excitement over Wesley showing up makes it seem less bad.
Right, I forgot about that. I'd still like the universe to receive a little capstone. Not like a super-end of everything, thing. Just like an end. For the whole thing.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say; for me it didn't seem like much of an ending. It felt like they left too much unanswered and open ended.
That's the point though. The whole idea of the end is that there isn't a big finish. There's no big fight, high five, ride off into the sunset ending. He can't really "win".
That's why that last words of the series are what they are: "Let's go to work"
It's not a one-shot adventure, it's a job. It's something you do every day.
I thought it was "I've always wanted to fight a dragon"
I just checked on Netflix. Your memory trumps mine.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
I don't remember the episode, or whether it was Buffy or Angel, but I seem to remember an episode where they discussed the Apocalypse and I think Buffy mentions that she's already stopped two or three of them, and someone points out that it's not "the" apocalypse that she stopped. That, at some point, there would be an actual Apocalypse that would decide if the world would return to the old ways of true demons and evil inhabiting the earth, or evil being driven away forever, which I guess is where the Fray universe sort of ended up, with no real magic or enemies left except for some weak remnants.
IIRC that battle was still fuzzy because Angel/Angelus would be a pretty heavy deciding factor in it, and I always took that to mean that the deciding factor would be whether or not he would stop/help the Slayer finish the job.
I don't remember the episode, or whether it was Buffy or Angel, but I seem to remember an episode where they discussed the Apocalypse and I think Buffy mentions that she's already stopped two or three of them, and someone points out that it's not "the" apocalypse that she stopped. That, at some point, there would be an actual Apocalypse that would decide if the world would return to the old ways of true demons and evil inhabiting the earth, or evil being driven away forever, which I guess is where the Fray universe sort of ended up, with no real magic or enemies left except for some weak remnants.
IIRC that battle was still fuzzy because Angel/Angelus would be a pretty heavy deciding factor in it, and I always took that to mean that the deciding factor would be whether or not he would stop/help the Slayer finish the job.
Eh. At the end of the day Joss isn't a very good worldbuilder. I think the Shanshou prophecy was something he thought sounded cool but never figured out what it actually meant.
The dragon line is the Coda of Angel's character. It ties back to who he's always been. Spitting in the eye of authority and the system, and doing what he wants to do. The difference is that when he was a kid that meant going to the pub and getting it on with that cute little blonde number, and now it means fighting the Good Fight.
For the record(since a lot of people commented on it) I feel that Angel needs a final story the least. Angel's character arc is about choosing whether to/and how to fight and it was completed in his last episode. If Buffy had never existed and somehow Angel still existed I would be completely satisfied. Angel will fight and fight till he finally drops. How he fights and how far he gets isn't important. Because its never been about the end.
Angel begins as pathetic street rat. A murderer burdened by his morality. He spends years doing just enough to stick around. His existence is pointless. Until Whistler arrives to give him something to care about. Angel doesn't think he can make up for what he's done so nothing he does matters. Whistler shows him Buffy and he feels an instant connection. She doesn't change his hopelessness but he can't bare to let her fight alone. Angel is given a reason to fight, and to ignore the things he's done. It lasts long enough to heal him a little bit. When the two realize they can't be together Angel leaves for L.A. but is still purposeless. He's better off than he once was killing Vampires instead of living like a vampire Hobo. Then Doyle offers him a purpose.
The Whole show is a group of purposeless people coming together a finding a shared purpose(not counting Doyle who is something like a mentor).
Anyway Angel has to except that there wont be some moment where he's allowed to lay down his sword because of all the good he's done(save maybe Heaven like someone suggest). The fight and redemption have no end. They are a journey not an ends.
Buffy's story is of course about, among other things, learning to share your burden.
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The season finale for Angel was a "what? that's the end??" until finding out that the show had been canceled with short notice. I get that they were trying to wrap things up in a hurry, but I still don't like how they did it.
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No, Bolivian Army Ending was definitely the way to go for Angel.
It was not ended on short notice. they wanted another season but according to Whedon they had plenty of time to do it. Also I love the ending since it follows the whole "there is never an end, redemption is about the journey not the end thing"
What I'm pissed at is that some jack-ass is trying to reboot the series instead of having Whedon do the apocalypse movie that Angel spent practically the whole show hyping.
What apocalypse?
A big fight apocalypse would pretty much shit all over the point of the show and directly contradict itself.
The shansu apocalypse? That thing that we've been told since forever will happen? Not that I think it would be the end after all. How many apocalypses have there been? Six? Seven? That was supposed to be the biggest. I'd like to see it happen.
You mean the apocalypse that Lindsay laughed in Angel's face about because it wasn't about some big fight?
Cite? Which episode was this? I remember him laughing at the idea of an "end" or winning against evil and then Angel responds with "maybe there arn't there to be beaten but to be fought.
Smile Time was fucking amazing. And I will shank the person who says otherwise.
S5
"Underneath"
The one where they rescue Lindsay from the suburbs.
The specific quote:
His whole speech is the point. It's what ties into the end of the series and the whole thing in S2 culminating with dead-Holland Manners bringing him to the home office .... right on earth.
And that's exactly the point. It's not a big battle. It's not a huge apocalypse you can win. It's an endless struggle. The apocalypse isn't coming, it's already here.
Right, I forgot about that. I'd still like the universe to receive a little capstone. Not like a super-end of everything, thing. Just like an end. For the whole thing.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say; for me it didn't seem like much of an ending. It felt like they left too much unanswered and open ended.
Making: LuvCherie Jewelry
Writing: Fibropreneur.com
Shopping: Amazon Wishes
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Gaming: Xbox Live, Playstation, Steam
You mean specifically for Angel, not the whole thing because the point is that the whole thing doesn't end.
That's the point though. The whole idea of the end is that there isn't a big finish. There's no big fight, high five, ride off into the sunset ending. He can't really "win".
That's why that last words of the series are what they are: "Let's go to work"
It's not a one-shot adventure, it's a job. It's something you do every day.
I came to this conclusion in the last season with Lindsay, conversation mentioned earlier.
It would be a hell of a reward for a vampire, to have a honest shot at heaven.
I've...never looked at it from that angle, but it makes complete and total sense. You just multiplied my appreciation for the finale -- which I thought was impossible to do, given that it's already one of my favorites.
I don't think it's very accurate at all.
He realises he can't really win. He can't end it all in one big battle and make everything happily ever after. What he can do, though, is kick the forces aligned against him so hard in the nutsack that they actually feel it. And realise that while they can kill him, they can't beat him. That he will not stop fighting.
The entire point is that the ending contains a certain sense of fatalism. He can't end or avert the apocalypse on his own, but he can slow it down, and that's all that matters. It's not about the end, it's about the road to that end, which has been the whole theme of the series since the start.
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Yeah, he knew they would get bitch-slapped and probably killed.
I thought it was "I've always wanted to fight a dragon"
ANGEL: We fight.
SPIKE: Bit more specific?
ANGEL: Well, personally? I kinda wanna slay the dragon.
<insert shot of approaching demons>
ANGEL: Let's go to work.
IIRC that battle was still fuzzy because Angel/Angelus would be a pretty heavy deciding factor in it, and I always took that to mean that the deciding factor would be whether or not he would stop/help the Slayer finish the job.
Eh. At the end of the day Joss isn't a very good worldbuilder. I think the Shanshou prophecy was something he thought sounded cool but never figured out what it actually meant.
Angel begins as pathetic street rat. A murderer burdened by his morality. He spends years doing just enough to stick around. His existence is pointless. Until Whistler arrives to give him something to care about. Angel doesn't think he can make up for what he's done so nothing he does matters. Whistler shows him Buffy and he feels an instant connection. She doesn't change his hopelessness but he can't bare to let her fight alone. Angel is given a reason to fight, and to ignore the things he's done. It lasts long enough to heal him a little bit. When the two realize they can't be together Angel leaves for L.A. but is still purposeless. He's better off than he once was killing Vampires instead of living like a vampire Hobo. Then Doyle offers him a purpose.
The Whole show is a group of purposeless people coming together a finding a shared purpose(not counting Doyle who is something like a mentor).
Anyway Angel has to except that there wont be some moment where he's allowed to lay down his sword because of all the good he's done(save maybe Heaven like someone suggest). The fight and redemption have no end. They are a journey not an ends.
Buffy's story is of course about, among other things, learning to share your burden.
I feel cheated.