In all honesty, I regret expressing my opinion at all. I should have known better than to formulate unbiased conclusions on an anglo-centic website. Winners write history, I guess.
Feel free to present some actual history. Post-colonialism is an important intellectual movement, which you are cheapening.
In all honesty, I regret expressing my opinion at all. I should have known better than to formulate unbiased conclusions on an anglo-centic website. Winners write history, I guess.
In all honesty, I regret expressing my opinion at all. I should have known better than to formulate unbiased conclusions on an anglo-centic website. Winners write history, I guess.
I don't think you have a firm grasp on the concept of bias.
Again, do you seriously want people to accept that a dozen guys on a barren rock in the middle of the Atlantic is the same as an entire country like Tibet getting invaded and having its culture systematically dismantled? Your comparison amply demonstrates the thundering lack of understanding of the situation.
Hell, why not say the British are the Nazis, and those dozen guys were like Czechkoslovakia?
Like I said, it's a difference of scale. The theft of land and the destruction of culture was common in those days, and just because it concerns less people in the argentinian case doesn't make it any less wrong than say, the french in maghreb or the british in india.
These are completely different things
completely and utterly
1. People in the area were removed
2. Culture was destroyed
3. ???
4. Profit
It just happens that in Tibet, etc. there were millions of people and a huge amount of culture. But it's fundamentally similar, even on a micro-scale.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a year. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
There are multitudes of actual victims of oppression by white northerners. Literally billions of people adversely affected by colonialism. And all of them, upon reading this thread, would want to slap you.
There are multitudes of actual victims of oppression by white northerners. Literally billions of people adversely affected by colonialism. And all of them, upon reading this thread, would want to slap you.
Wow, great, so now you're threatening me with violence, the same violence with which your govt wrenched lands from the defenseless natives all those years. History repeats itself.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a year. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
There are multitudes of actual victims of oppression by white northerners. Literally billions of people adversely affected by colonialism. And all of them, upon reading this thread, would want to slap you.
Wow, great, so now you're threatening me with violence, the same violence with which your govt wrenched lands from the defenseless natives all those years. History repeats itself.
I feel like your reasoning is because Britain was at fault in Africa and India, they must be at fault here.
In all honesty, I regret expressing my opinion at all. I should have known better than to formulate unbiased conclusions on an anglo-centic website. Winners write history, I guess.
You have spent almost zero effort in replying to any of the factual points raised by those with whom you are arguing. Your claim to be unbiased given your absolute refusal to acknowledge the facts with which you have been presented is frankly laughable.
But go on thinking this is you being victimised because you dare speaking truth to power if it makes you happy.
There are multitudes of actual victims of oppression by white northerners. Literally billions of people adversely affected by colonialism. And all of them, upon reading this thread, would want to slap you.
Wow, great, so now you're threatening me with violence, the same violence with which your govt wrenched lands from the defenseless natives all those years. History repeats itself.
I feel like your reasoning is because Britain was at fault in Africa and India, they must be at fault here.
It's like having a bad credit history, didn't you know?!
Are you actively denying the fact that Britain had a territorial claim to the island before Argentina was a country? There were no "Argentineans" on the island to be displaced. That would have required Argentina to exist at the time.
I was under the impression that the Argentine authorities and the captain of the General Belgrano both conceded that the sinking was a legitimate wartime action?
It was a legitimate action, and yes, Bonzo (as you might expect from a decent captain) felt that his ship was fair game.
It was still morally reprehensible. The Belgrando's primary armaments were vintage cannons. In an era of missile & aircraft warfare. She did not pose a legitimate threat to the Royal Navy, was not 'manoeuvring into a pincer action' as Thatcher later alleged, and could've been easily repelled without loss of life by a single British surface ship firing a warning shot her way while out of her gun range. But Thatcher had it blown out of the water because hey don't fuck with me buddy!
Aside from sinking the Belgrano, what other British actions during the war were strikingly awful?
About 1,000 men were taken prisoner at Goose Green after the surrender of the Argentinian forces. Again, most of these men were conscripts working in the army against their will. About 900 of the prisoners made it back to Argentina.
Sort-of disgustingly ironic that the British navy decided to engage in the same sort of punitive 'disappearing' actions favoured by the Argentinian fascist state after taking PoWs.
I feel like your reasoning is because Britain was at fault in Africa and India, they must be at fault here.
I can't help it, the screams of Europe's faceless victims haunts me in my dreams. The kilometers of unmarked graves, were coolies simply dropped from exhaustion and humiliation. The sound of western machines drilling into the earth, taking all that is valuable.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a year. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
There are multitudes of actual victims of oppression by white northerners. Literally billions of people adversely affected by colonialism. And all of them, upon reading this thread, would want to slap you.
Wow, great, so now you're threatening me with violence, the same violence with which your govt wrenched lands from the defenseless natives all those years. History repeats itself.
Yes, that is what his post is. It's Imperialism all over again.
In all honesty, I regret expressing my opinion at all. I should have known better than to formulate unbiased conclusions on an anglo-centic website. Winners write history, I guess.
You have spent almost zero effort in replying to any of the factual points raised by those with whom you are arguing. Your claim to be unbiased given your absolute refusal to acknowledge the facts with which you have been presented is frankly laughable.
But go on thinking this is you being victimised because you dare speaking truth to power if it makes you happy.
The "facts" you put forward were all from the english version of wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit. How else am I supposed to react?
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a year. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
2) Argentina is very poor and very run down for a country of it's size. What little wealth that hasn't been tapped by a variety of multinational organizations has been stolen by the government, leaving the public with decaying infrastructure and brutal police forces (they used to openly engage in 'disappearing' people; apparently this has stopped, and we're supposed to be impressed that law enforcement officials are no longer paid to kidnap & murder dissidents).
I'd have more sympathy for them if they weren't attempting to intimidate a nation with less then 1% of their population into submission in order to gain access to their oil, and hadn't previously engaged in imperialistic dick waving against the same islands a few decades ago.
Obviously that's not any reason to support the actions of Agentina, but it's why a lot of people sympathize with that country instead of the wealthy & monolithic UK.
Except it isn't the UK that is being confronted, it's ~again~ a comparativley tiny nation that happens to be part of the commonwealth.
0
Options
ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I see you took option one: refuse to knowledge any facts which destroy my argument and belligerently play the martyr.
I see you took option 0: hurling abuse at a specific user without contributing to the discussion in any way.
That is not abuse
Nor does any of this contribute to the discussion
I do have some questions: why do you claim to be unbiased? Why the fixation on Tibet? What are your thoughts on the current inhabitants of the islands? What should be done with them should Argentina gain sovereignty over the islands?
I feel like your reasoning is because Britain was at fault in Africa and India, they must be at fault here.
I can't help it, the screams of Europe's faceless victims haunts me in my dreams. The kilometers of unmarked graves, were coolies simply dropped from exhaustion and humiliation. The sound of western machines drilling into the earth, taking all that is valuable.
Wow, I didn't know that Europe is the sole origin of conquest, plunder, massacre, colonialism and general round jerkness. Oh, wait, no it isn't.
There have always been humans that attack and conquer other humans. It's only really in the last 150 years that we've realised how wrong that is. But to hold us responsible for the sins of our ancestors and demand that we are punished is pointless.
About 1,000 men were taken prisoner at Goose Green after the surrender of the Argentinian forces. Again, most of these men were conscripts working in the army against their will. About 900 of the prisoners made it back to Argentina.
Sort-of disgustingly ironic that the British navy decided to engage in the same sort of punitive 'disappearing' actions favoured by the Argentinian fascist state after taking PoWs.
Wait, what? You're accusing Britain of murdering 100 Argentine POWs?
And yes, they were conscripts. When you're fighting against conscripts are you not supposed to fight back? What bearing on the war does the Argentine army being mostly conscripts make?
And hey, looking at the armament of the Belgrano it seems that they had some Sea Cat missiles and anti aircraft guns. Hardly antique cannon.
The "facts" you put forward were all from the english version of wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit. How else am I supposed to react?
With facts culled from sources of your own. Do you have any? If not, how did you come by your opinions in the first place, given you can cite no sources from which they might have been originally informed?
I see you took option one: refuse to knowledge any facts which destroy my argument and belligerently play the martyr.
I see you took option 0: hurling abuse at a specific user without contributing to the discussion in any way.
I have been contributing to this thread for a while, I quoted facts to you in my first response, you ignored them.
If it makes you feel any better, no matter what I say in this thread, no matter how hard I try to make you guys see the truth, the UK will still keep its ill-gotten plunder.
Nothing will change at all. So yeah feel free to be as sarcastic as you want, I will be crushed under the imperial boot whatever happens.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a year. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
I feel like your reasoning is because Britain was at fault in Africa and India, they must be at fault here.
I can't help it, the screams of Europe's faceless victims haunts me in my dreams. The kilometers of unmarked graves, were coolies simply dropped from exhaustion and humiliation. The sound of western machines drilling into the earth, taking all that is valuable.
Wow, I didn't know that Europe is the sole origin of conquest, plunder, massacre, colonialism and general round jerkness. Oh, wait, no it isn't.
There have always been humans that attack and conquer other humans. It's only really in the last 150 years that we've realised how wrong that is. But to hold us responsible for the sins of our ancestors and demand that we are punished is pointless.
While all countries have had their traditions of massacre, Europeans take the cake. Never have nations been so thoroughly controlled. Never has genocide been so thoroughly carried out. For example, of the native north americans, 2% percent remain. Europeans are master of their craft and make other countries look like peacekeepers in comparison
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a year. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
I think we should accept how pointless further interaction with Sargasso will be and move on.
Ender - is it your contention that the UK should not have defended the Falklands during the first war?
Thatcher should have defended it, but on equal terms! Nothing but conscripted service and antiquated weaponary. It's hardly fair to fight a war where you're technologically and tactically superior to your opponents. Bloody unsportsmanlike, is what it is.
2) Argentina is very poor and very run down for a country of it's size. What little wealth that hasn't been tapped by a variety of multinational organizations has been stolen by the government, leaving the public with decaying infrastructure and brutal police forces (they used to openly engage in 'disappearing' people; apparently this has stopped, and we're supposed to be impressed that law enforcement officials are no longer paid to kidnap & murder dissidents).
I'd have more sympathy for them if they weren't attempting to intimidate a nation with less then 1% of their population into submission in order to gain access to their oil, and hadn't previously engaged in imperialistic dick waving against the same islands a few decades ago.
Obviously that's not any reason to support the actions of Agentina, but it's why a lot of people sympathize with that country instead of the wealthy & monolithic UK.
Except it isn't the UK that is being confronted, it's ~again~ a comparativley tiny nation that happens to be part of the commonwealth.
... a tiny nation that happens to have the full support of the UK, including a full garnison. They are also still under UK jurisdiction, even if they are not part of the UK itself. Don't try to use semantic ploys to reverse the order of victims.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a year. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
I see you took option one: refuse to knowledge any facts which destroy my argument and belligerently play the martyr.
I see you took option 0: hurling abuse at a specific user without contributing to the discussion in any way.
I have been contributing to this thread for a while, I quoted facts to you in my first response, you ignored them.
If it makes you feel any better, no matter what I say in this thread, no matter how hard I try to make you guys see the truth, the UK will still keep its ill-gotten plunder.
Nothing will change at all. So yeah feel free to be as sarcastic as you want, I will be crushed under the imperial boot whatever happens.
Even if we were to agree that Britain shouldn't have taken the islands, why should 3000 people be punished for the crimes of long-dead people by being removed from their home? Should all the Protestants in Northern Ireland be kicked out because of English colonisation attempts 400 years ago even though nearly every one of them was born here, as was their parents and grandparents? Should my Polish work colleague and his parents be evicted from their home in Elblag because 70 years ago it was the German town of Elbing? Should thousands of Russian inhabitants of the Karelian Isthmus be relocated or forcibly made part of Finland?
After a point you can't just turn back the clock on these things.
Posts
Feel free to present some actual history. Post-colonialism is an important intellectual movement, which you are cheapening.
I don't think you have a firm grasp on the concept of bias.
1. People in the area were removed
2. Culture was destroyed
3. ???
4. Profit
It just happens that in Tibet, etc. there were millions of people and a huge amount of culture. But it's fundamentally similar, even on a micro-scale.
There was no one removed, and no culture was destroyed. Unless you are granting penguins sentience.
no, not even the profit
Do you have magical powers that modify facts just by saying so? That's pretty cool.
Yet, muahaha.
He isn't modifying facts
he is stating them
Apparently you can just make up facts though
What facts do you have that the rest of the world isn't privy to?
I'd like to see you trying to reply to new hostile comments every 2 seconds with a 500kb/s connection :P
Wow, great, so now you're threatening me with violence, the same violence with which your govt wrenched lands from the defenseless natives all those years. History repeats itself.
I feel like your reasoning is because Britain was at fault in Africa and India, they must be at fault here.
You have spent almost zero effort in replying to any of the factual points raised by those with whom you are arguing. Your claim to be unbiased given your absolute refusal to acknowledge the facts with which you have been presented is frankly laughable.
But go on thinking this is you being victimised because you dare speaking truth to power if it makes you happy.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Are you actively denying the fact that Britain had a territorial claim to the island before Argentina was a country? There were no "Argentineans" on the island to be displaced. That would have required Argentina to exist at the time.
I see you took option 0: hurling abuse at a specific user without contributing to the discussion in any way.
All right, this guy has to be a bored Onion writer or something.
It was a legitimate action, and yes, Bonzo (as you might expect from a decent captain) felt that his ship was fair game.
It was still morally reprehensible. The Belgrando's primary armaments were vintage cannons. In an era of missile & aircraft warfare. She did not pose a legitimate threat to the Royal Navy, was not 'manoeuvring into a pincer action' as Thatcher later alleged, and could've been easily repelled without loss of life by a single British surface ship firing a warning shot her way while out of her gun range. But Thatcher had it blown out of the water because hey don't fuck with me buddy!
About 1,000 men were taken prisoner at Goose Green after the surrender of the Argentinian forces. Again, most of these men were conscripts working in the army against their will. About 900 of the prisoners made it back to Argentina.
Sort-of disgustingly ironic that the British navy decided to engage in the same sort of punitive 'disappearing' actions favoured by the Argentinian fascist state after taking PoWs.
I can't help it, the screams of Europe's faceless victims haunts me in my dreams. The kilometers of unmarked graves, were coolies simply dropped from exhaustion and humiliation. The sound of western machines drilling into the earth, taking all that is valuable.
I have been contributing to this thread for a while, I quoted facts to you in my first response, you ignored them.
Yes, that is what his post is. It's Imperialism all over again.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
The "facts" you put forward were all from the english version of wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit. How else am I supposed to react?
I'd have more sympathy for them if they weren't attempting to intimidate a nation with less then 1% of their population into submission in order to gain access to their oil, and hadn't previously engaged in imperialistic dick waving against the same islands a few decades ago.
Except it isn't the UK that is being confronted, it's ~again~ a comparativley tiny nation that happens to be part of the commonwealth.
That is not abuse
Nor does any of this contribute to the discussion
I do have some questions: why do you claim to be unbiased? Why the fixation on Tibet? What are your thoughts on the current inhabitants of the islands? What should be done with them should Argentina gain sovereignty over the islands?
Wow, I didn't know that Europe is the sole origin of conquest, plunder, massacre, colonialism and general round jerkness. Oh, wait, no it isn't.
There have always been humans that attack and conquer other humans. It's only really in the last 150 years that we've realised how wrong that is. But to hold us responsible for the sins of our ancestors and demand that we are punished is pointless.
Wait, what? You're accusing Britain of murdering 100 Argentine POWs?
And yes, they were conscripts. When you're fighting against conscripts are you not supposed to fight back? What bearing on the war does the Argentine army being mostly conscripts make?
And hey, looking at the armament of the Belgrano it seems that they had some Sea Cat missiles and anti aircraft guns. Hardly antique cannon.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
With facts culled from sources of your own. Do you have any? If not, how did you come by your opinions in the first place, given you can cite no sources from which they might have been originally informed?
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
If it makes you feel any better, no matter what I say in this thread, no matter how hard I try to make you guys see the truth, the UK will still keep its ill-gotten plunder.
Nothing will change at all. So yeah feel free to be as sarcastic as you want, I will be crushed under the imperial boot whatever happens.
Facts and sources of your own would be the usual way. Or does 'reason' amount to Western Imperialism™ now as well?
Ender - is it your contention that the UK should not have defended the Falklands during the first war?
While all countries have had their traditions of massacre, Europeans take the cake. Never have nations been so thoroughly controlled. Never has genocide been so thoroughly carried out. For example, of the native north americans, 2% percent remain. Europeans are master of their craft and make other countries look like peacekeepers in comparison
Thatcher should have defended it, but on equal terms! Nothing but conscripted service and antiquated weaponary. It's hardly fair to fight a war where you're technologically and tactically superior to your opponents. Bloody unsportsmanlike, is what it is.
... a tiny nation that happens to have the full support of the UK, including a full garnison. They are also still under UK jurisdiction, even if they are not part of the UK itself. Don't try to use semantic ploys to reverse the order of victims.
Even if we were to agree that Britain shouldn't have taken the islands, why should 3000 people be punished for the crimes of long-dead people by being removed from their home? Should all the Protestants in Northern Ireland be kicked out because of English colonisation attempts 400 years ago even though nearly every one of them was born here, as was their parents and grandparents? Should my Polish work colleague and his parents be evicted from their home in Elblag because 70 years ago it was the German town of Elbing? Should thousands of Russian inhabitants of the Karelian Isthmus be relocated or forcibly made part of Finland?
After a point you can't just turn back the clock on these things.