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Oh so now that i fully read your post and understand you, i still dont think its a big deal. Because personally I love sticking myself into any fictional work i find and imagine what i would do in each world.
Uhmm... my point was that product placement prevents what you just described.
Right, but obviously it doesn't present that problem for Urb. It might for you, but it doesn't for everyone.
Honestly, I've reached a point where I really don't care. Sure, when the camera pans up on one of the alt-form TFs, they always start at the grill. But, I mean, the pan's gotta start from somewhere.
It honestly didn't feel intrusive to me, and didn't take me out of the experience. I think you just have a lower tolerance for advertising than most Americans do these days. So, while I can understand your problem, and I empathize, it's not a universal problem.
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Oh so now that i fully read your post and understand you, i still dont think its a big deal. Because personally I love sticking myself into any fictional work i find and imagine what i would do in each world.
Uhmm... my point was that product placement prevents what you just described.
Right, but obviously it doesn't present that problem for Urb. It might for you, but it doesn't for everyone.
Honestly, I've reached a point where I really don't care. Sure, when the camera pans up on one of the alt-form TFs, they always start at the grill. But, I mean, the pan's gotta start from somewhere.
It honestly didn't feel intrusive to me, and didn't take me out of the experience. I think you just have a lower tolerance for advertising than most Americans do these days. So, while I can understand your problem, and I empathize, it's not a universal problem.
The problem is that product placement, by its very nature, causes this problem. When you can ignore, it isn't working, and if it stops working they're just going to make the camera linger longer and longer on that iPhone until Apple, or whatever company, sees the same acknowledgment and sales spikes they saw when the concept of product placement was first introduced.
It's here to stay, is DESIGNED to ruin your movie experience, and it's going to get more and more annoying until we all start rejecting it.
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Oh so now that i fully read your post and understand you, i still dont think its a big deal. Because personally I love sticking myself into any fictional work i find and imagine what i would do in each world.
Uhmm... my point was that product placement prevents what you just described.
Right, but obviously it doesn't present that problem for Urb. It might for you, but it doesn't for everyone.
Honestly, I've reached a point where I really don't care. Sure, when the camera pans up on one of the alt-form TFs, they always start at the grill. But, I mean, the pan's gotta start from somewhere.
It honestly didn't feel intrusive to me, and didn't take me out of the experience. I think you just have a lower tolerance for advertising than most Americans do these days. So, while I can understand your problem, and I empathize, it's not a universal problem.
The problem is that product placement, by its very nature, causes this problem. When you can ignore, it isn't working, and if it stops working they're just going to make the camera linger longer and longer on that iPhone until Apple, or whatever company, sees the same acknowledgment and sales spikes they saw when the concept of product placement was first introduced.
It's here to stay, is DESIGNED to ruin your movie experience, and it's going to get more and more annoying until we all start rejecting it.
Well I can kind of understand this stance in regards to say the sd card thing but the cars?
It's more distracting when the transformers turn into cars and trucks that don't exist. I should be able to look at optimus or ironhide and go "Yeah that looks like a real truck" They have to turn into real vehicles and pretty much all cars have the logo on the grill or above it. Its realistic and fits better then if they had used generic cars with no labels on them at all.
Product placement didn't really bother me. I only notice it when someone points it out. For example, with the memory card I was just thinking, yeah of course you'd use something like that, SD is a popular format. Kind of like people using google in movies, it reflects reality.
I wasn't even aware Panasonic made SD cards. Surely if they were going for realism they'd have used Sandisk :P
Well I can kind of understand this stance in regards to say the sd card thing but the cars?
It's more distracting when the transformers turn into cars and trucks that don't exist. I should be able to look at optimus or ironhide and go "Yeah that looks like a real truck" They have to turn into real vehicles and pretty much all cars have the logo on the grill or above it. Its realistic and fits better then if they had used generic cars with no labels on them at all.
Well, you know, you can write off the cars and trucks because that does make sense, but the other integrated adverts are kind of inexcusable. The word eBay alone must have been used no less than 10 times.
And Transformers is hardly an exception, especially not for Michael Bay. The Island, which Bay directed, featured product placement for 21 individual products ranging from cars to beer to ice cream, all of which were granted their obligatory 2 seconds or more of clear, intrusive screen time.
While there's a time and place to complain about corporate America, and its heathen practices, I think the argument is a moot point when used in context of a intellectual property that was created out of consumerism.
Hasbro made Transformers to sell toys. As agreeable as "omg, product placement is teh suck", it's like going to Germany and then bitching about the Germans and their drunkard sausage fests. Only drunkard sausage fests are much more enjoyable.
It's not like the G1 cartoon was high-brow humour.
It's not like it was an edgy testing ground for new methods of storytelling and dramatic character development.
And it's not like it was a deeply philosophical and thought-provoking creation of literature, unattached to the quirks and idiosyncracies of modern culture.
So then why are you expecting this movie to be all of those things
Giant robots, carnage, cheap humour, a hot chick, and explosions. It's a new millenium retelling of the Transformers story, all right. Bringing in your own ideas of what it should be or what it should have done are really just ruining your entertainment of a nice popcorn flick and feel-good story.
You are right, it's just Transformers. A cartoon in the eighties that served as a commercial for toys more then anything. I wasn't expecting something complex or philosophical or anything like that. I just a wanted to see a good action movie that made me remember why I like transformers so much. This wasn't it.
Poorly written is the best term for it. Derivative and bland are others.
My issues?
- Really bad story which made very little sense and wasn't explained well to boot.
- The "nerdy" guy winning over the jock's girlfriend storyline? How many fucking times do we have to see that before it gets old?
- No character development of the Transformers. None. They just ran around and fought.
- That leads to: the transformers motivations...poorly explained on both sides.
- How many "wacky" characters do we need?
- Trying to cram stupid jokes into every single fucking scene. Cheesy jokes only work if they remain scattered. The "you are more then meets the eye" line would have worked just fine if it hadn't been surrounded on all sides by more poorly written attempts at humour. There were too many instances of this.
- Transformers in my backyard. Went. On. Way. Too. Fucking. Long.
- Motorcycle scene. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?
The big one was the hackers stuff though. If they had ditched that whole bit of pointless crap and did more development of the transformers on both sides it would have worked a lot better. We are kept at a distance from the transformers for the entire movie. So we don't really know anything about them, which makes it really hard to care what happens. Something vaguely bad will happen if he gets this cube!
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
While there's a time and place to complain about corporate America, and its heathen practices, I think the argument is a moot point when used in context of a intellectual concept that was created out of consumerism.
Hasbro made Transformers to sell toys. As agreeable as "omg, product placement is teh suck", it's like going to Germany and then bitching about the Germans and their drunkard sausage fests. Only drunkard sausage fests are much more enjoyable.
God, I wish people would stop chanting this at me.
I know Hasbro financed the original Transformers show to sell toys, but the sales ploy took on a life of its own and programming rather than product has since become the heart of the franchise, especially in regards to the most recent feature film which has been an immense money maker in its own right, though I'm sure it'll sell some toys as well.
In any case, the complaint is that product placement intrudes upon the films you're watching. Unless you're going to argue that Transformers somehow intrudes upon itself, then the fact that the Transformers franchise has its roots in toy sales is a matter wholly divorced from that of product placement in film.
And your analogy is flawed. Nobody's saying it sucks that Germany/Transformers is filled with Germans/Transformers. They're complaing that all the really big countries now have the Pepsi logo emblazoned on their national landmarks.
The point of the analogy, while vague, was that if you're going to invest into something, you should at least acknowledge the quirks therein.
Unfortunately, and like I've hinted before, product placement is horrid. However, consumerism is still attached to the Transformer franchise even if nostalgia and giant-robot-lust are dominating attributes now. It's the nature of the beast; I'm sorry if your movie experince was marred by product placement, but frankly, a Mountain Dew dispensing transformer is fucking funny.
I missed the Mt Dew machine Also, I listened for the 360 startup sound during that scene and didn't hear anything, though now that I think about it I don't actually know what a 360 start up sounds like.
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NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
So I pretty much got everything I wanted and more from this film. I went into it half in terror that another childhood memory would be raped and half expecting something decent. What I got was something I think I like far better than the original.
Although that opening scene on the military base where Blackout is stomping through it blowing shit up? I gave a me a horrible craving for a new Mechwarrior game. Horrible only because Microsoft seems dead set against actually making Mechwarrior 5.
Also the battle in the village that had the Warthogs and the C-130 Gunship show up was probably my favorite battle scene ever in a movie that used real military assets, even if it was far from realistic. I had to stop myself from giggling. :oops:
Upon my second viewing, I thought the EXACT same thing on Black's tromp-and-stomp through Qatar.
I got goosebumps during the fight because I got to see a gun ship in actual use. Granted they said that they flew lower then they normally do because Bay wanted the audience to be able to see the C-130 shooting at Scorpinox
You are right, it's just Transformers. A cartoon in the eighties that served as a commercial for toys more then anything. I wasn't expecting something complex or philosophical or anything like that. I just a wanted to see a good action movie that made me remember why I like transformers so much. This wasn't it.
Poorly written is the best term for it. Derivative and bland are others.
My issues?
- Really bad story which made very little sense and wasn't explained well to boot.
I disagree.
It felt pretty well explained to me. Megatron came to Earth to thousands of years ago to find the ultimate source of energy, he crashed, got frozen in ice. Sam's Great Grandfather finds him by mistake and activates one of his homing systems, which causes Decepticons to come to Earth. Decepticons try to steal government computer data to locate the Cube/Megatron. Autobots show up, find the Cube, fight Decepticons, end of first movie.
Whats so bad about that? What would have been an acceptable plot?
- The "nerdy" guy winning over the jock's girlfriend storyline? How many fucking times do we have to see that before it gets old?
So whats a better scenario? Lonely boy with no romantic interest just talks to himself and robots whole movie? Jock gets girl and gets knocked up at 17?
- No character development of the Transformers. None. They just ran around and fought.
I agree with this point somewhat.
However.... I think the focus of this movie was just setting up/introducing the Transformers, suspense at their arrival/appearance, shock and awe once they are fully revealed.
Which... I enjoyed.
It would have focused too much on the fan's personal interest if they just ignored the human element and suddenly Transformers came down, started talking to each other and formed a ton of sub-plots, even though they just got introduced.
Would have seemed too... fast.
- That leads to: the transformers motivations...poorly explained on both sides.
Yeah I somewhat agree with this. All Prime really said in the movie was that Megatron was the betrayer and the Autobots were sworn to fight them and protect humanity. They didn't really explain why they were the good guys, just that they were.
- How many "wacky" characters do we need?
How many were there?
Frenzy and....? (I actually liked him though)
- Trying to cram stupid jokes into every single fucking scene.
Obviously, you don't watch many action or comics movies. Many of them are way worse than what I saw in Transformers. I actually found this stuff to be hilarious for the most part. Spider-man 3, Ghost Rider, Fantastic Four, X-men 3, Superman Returns so many other movies of the same vein had me rolling my eyes and bored through almost the entire films.
- Transformers in my backyard. Went. On. Way. Too. Fucking. Long.
Yeah, I'll give you this one.
I liked it though, because I think it would be awesome/hilarious if the same thing was happening to me.
- Motorcycle scene. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?
What? I don't even remember a motorcycle scene.
The big one was the hackers stuff though. If they had ditched that whole bit of pointless crap and did more development of the transformers on both sides it would have worked a lot better. We are kept at a distance from the transformers for the entire movie. So we don't really know anything about them, which makes it really hard to care what happens. Something vaguely bad will happen if he gets this cube!
I somewhat agree, but once again. I think that was the point of the movie to setup the Transformers and put in a good amount of human interaction into it and left us wanting more Transformers action for the second movie.
Also, they made it clear that if Megatron gets the cube, he will pwn earth with Decepticons made from various machines.
Yeah I somewhat agree with this. All Prime really said in the movie was that Megatron was the betrayer and the Autobots were sworn to fight them and protect humanity. They didn't really explain why they were the good guys, just that they were.
I liked that point. "Show, don't tell' and all that.
We didn't need lots of speechifying or moral lessons or anything, we got that the Autobots where good guys and the Decepticons bad guys because they acted like good guys and bad guys.
Optimus refusing to kill humans even to save a friend, and going out of his way to protect humans even while fighting for his life showed us he was a good guy, as did the Decepticons casual disregard for life.
So, Michael Bay is a total product placement whore, eh?
This has me curious. I never saw Pearl Harbor, which I heard he directed. What was that like, insofar as product placement goes?
It was all "Buy War Bonds" and shit.
Seriously, you guys, this debate is just getting sillier. I think we've all said our piece by now. Some people like it, some people don't. I say one thing about not noticing product placement and people take me literally. Of course I noticed it. I didn't care. The fact that the cars said GMC on the front did not afect the movie to me in any way. Hell, they could have said Ford, or Honda, or Cock, and it still would have been a movie about robots that turn into cars and back into robots again.
Plot wise, yeah, there were some spots that didn't work well. I think I've seen two movies in my life that I couldn't find things wrong with. Yet I still have many movies I enjoy watching, sometimes even more than once. I'm looking at this as a whole, finished product.
And as a whole, finished product, I liked this movie and would probably pay the 6 bucks to see it again. It was fun.
Seriously, you guys, this debate is just getting sillier. I think we've all said our piece by now. Some people like it, some people don't. I say one thing about not noticing product placement and people take me literally. Of course I noticed it. I didn't care. The fact that the cars said GMC on the front did not afect the movie to me in any way. Hell, they could have said Ford, or Honda, or Cock, and it still would have been a movie about robots that turn into cars and back into robots again.
I think I would have paid more attention to the vehicle if it had "COCK" crafted into it's grill than anything else. While I'm not so much concerned about my product placement apathy, I'm slightly cautious of my budding homosexuality.
When the army guy hops on a motorcycle at the end, then lays it down and slides under one of the Decepticons, shooting it with his little... grenade launcher thing (not too familiar with weapons, sorry).
It was pretty silly, even in the context of giant robots fighting.
But still whats they big deal? HBO does this all the time, but does anyone care?
I just described why it's a big deal. It compromises immersion.
I'd say that's only true in a very small number of cases. There are cases of blatant product placement where you're hit over the head with it and I definately agree that can destroy immersion but using GM vehicles or someone having a half full bottle of Coke sitting on thier desks? While those are product placements they aren't painfully overt attempts unless you're already sensitive about the whole idea of product placement in the first place.
The only thing I even noticed as blatant product placement (aside from the GMC thing but, whatever, they're cars and thos emblems would be there in real life anyways) was the Mt Dew machine and it only bothered me for a split second because once it started shooting pop cans at unsuspecting people I was laughing too hard to care. In general I don't find product placement in a modern setting bothersome at all. Did it make me want to buy a Mt. Dew or increase my reguard for that softdrink in any way? No, but to be completely candid I now want a pop machine that transforms and shoots popcans at people.
Seriously, get some people on that.
Product placement in a contemporary setting is, imho, more immersive as long as it makes sense in the context of the events that surround it and it doesn't interrupt the flow of the film. I actually find the opposite to be bothersome. If some movie-hacker is sitting at a computer feverently working to *insert plot device here* and he grabs a bottle of Coke/Pepsi/etc and takes a swig, that makes sense. If he grabs a bottle of *insert fictional made up soda here* and takes a swig I find myself thinking "What the fuck did he just take a drink of?". In one of the finale episodes of this past season of House he buys a candy bar from the machine called "Chomp". The wrapper looked as if it had been designed by a 10 year old with a set of magic markers and was an obvious attempt to avoid using a brand name product. To me that breaks immersion. Had it been a Hershey's bar or a Nestle Crunch? I wouldn't have even noticed what he bought because that's the kind of thing you'd expect to see in a vending machine.
Product placement didn't really bother me. I only notice it when someone points it out. For example, with the memory card I was just thinking, yeah of course you'd use something like that, SD is a popular format. Kind of like people using google in movies, it reflects reality.
I wasn't even aware Panasonic made SD cards. Surely if they were going for realism they'd have used Sandisk :P
Y'know, as far as products and whatnot go, this is the only one that pissed me off to high heaven. It wasn't the Panasonic thing, either.
If they're going to be downloading copious amounts of government data with high-fidelity Decepticon warbling and whatnot, how in the hell is that going to fit on a 2GB card??? :P
Yeah I somewhat agree with this. All Prime really said in the movie was that Megatron was the betrayer and the Autobots were sworn to fight them and protect humanity. They didn't really explain why they were the good guys, just that they were.
I liked that point. "Show, don't tell' and all that.
We didn't need lots of speechifying or moral lessons or anything, we got that the Autobots where good guys and the Decepticons bad guys because they acted like good guys and bad guys.
Optimus refusing to kill humans even to save a friend, and going out of his way to protect humans even while fighting for his life showed us he was a good guy, as did the Decepticons casual disregard for life.
Actually I thought they explained rather well why the Autobots are the good guys and the Decepticons are the bad guys. The whole thing when Prime was talking about why they weren't going to harm any humans, even to save one of their own, because their place was not to judge the human race. Especially not when their own past was rife with the same mistakes. Seemed pretty clear to me.
Product placement didn't really bother me. I only notice it when someone points it out. For example, with the memory card I was just thinking, yeah of course you'd use something like that, SD is a popular format. Kind of like people using google in movies, it reflects reality.
I wasn't even aware Panasonic made SD cards. Surely if they were going for realism they'd have used Sandisk :P
Y'know, as far as products and whatnot go, this is the only one that pissed me off to high heaven. It wasn't the Panasonic thing, either.
If they're going to be downloading copious amounts of government data with high-fidelity Decepticon warbling and whatnot, how in the hell is that going to fit on a 2GB card??? :P
Maybe I misunderstood but I thought she was just downloading a sample of the signal that the Decepticons were transmitting, not the entirety of the database the Decepticons hacked.
Product placement didn't really bother me. I only notice it when someone points it out. For example, with the memory card I was just thinking, yeah of course you'd use something like that, SD is a popular format. Kind of like people using google in movies, it reflects reality.
I wasn't even aware Panasonic made SD cards. Surely if they were going for realism they'd have used Sandisk :P
Y'know, as far as products and whatnot go, this is the only one that pissed me off to high heaven. It wasn't the Panasonic thing, either.
If they're going to be downloading copious amounts of government data with high-fidelity Decepticon warbling and whatnot, how in the hell is that going to fit on a 2GB card??? :P
Maybe I misunderstood but I thought she was just downloading a sample of the signal that the Decepticons were transmitting, not the entirety of the database the Decepticons hacked.
Product placement didn't really bother me. I only notice it when someone points it out. For example, with the memory card I was just thinking, yeah of course you'd use something like that, SD is a popular format. Kind of like people using google in movies, it reflects reality.
I wasn't even aware Panasonic made SD cards. Surely if they were going for realism they'd have used Sandisk :P
Y'know, as far as products and whatnot go, this is the only one that pissed me off to high heaven. It wasn't the Panasonic thing, either.
If they're going to be downloading copious amounts of government data with high-fidelity Decepticon warbling and whatnot, how in the hell is that going to fit on a 2GB card??? :P
Maybe I misunderstood but I thought she was just downloading a sample of the signal that the Decepticons were transmitting, not the entirety of the database the Decepticons hacked.
You are right, it's just Transformers. A cartoon in the eighties that served as a commercial for toys more then anything. I wasn't expecting something complex or philosophical or anything like that. I just a wanted to see a good action movie that made me remember why I like transformers so much. This wasn't it.
Poorly written is the best term for it. Derivative and bland are others.
My issues?
- Really bad story which made very little sense and wasn't explained well to boot.
I disagree.
It felt pretty well explained to me. Megatron came to Earth to thousands of years ago to find the ultimate source of energy, he crashed, got frozen in ice. Sam's Great Grandfather finds him by mistake and activates one of his homing systems, which causes Decepticons to come to Earth. Decepticons try to steal government computer data to locate the Cube/Megatron. Autobots show up, find the Cube, fight Decepticons, end of first movie.
Whats so bad about that? What would have been an acceptable plot?
Sorry, I meant backstory.
Ultimate source of energy? I thought it was some kind of life-creating thingy. Anyway, the whole cube thing was so vague and glossed over it was kind of insulting.
- The "nerdy" guy winning over the jock's girlfriend storyline? How many fucking times do we have to see that before it gets old?
So whats a better scenario? Lonely boy with no romantic interest just talks to himself and robots whole movie? Jock gets girl and gets knocked up at 17?
Yes, those are the ONLY two options available. Anything would have been better then something we see in every single teen comedy ever.
- No character development of the Transformers. None. They just ran around and fought.
I agree with this point somewhat.
However.... I think the focus of this movie was just setting up/introducing the Transformers, suspense at their arrival/appearance, shock and awe once they are fully revealed.
Which... I enjoyed.
It would have focused too much on the fan's personal interest if they just ignored the human element and suddenly Transformers came down, started talking to each other and formed a ton of sub-plots, even though they just got introduced.
Would have seemed too... fast.
I'm not talking about loads of sub-plots here. Just maybe having them talk to each other more then twice in the whole movie? There was plenty of room after the Transformers are revealed to have their characters developed some. Plus there is next to no discussion between the decepticons.
This is not about fan service, this is about developing the transformers characters. Making them interesting, distinct, relateable. Ultimately we don't care about them. Jazz dies? Who cares? He has like two lines in the movie.
Having Bumblebee mute was a big mistake. Interaction between him and Sam would have helped a lot. It would have helped tie the autobots and humans togther.
- Trying to cram stupid jokes into every single fucking scene.
Obviously, you don't watch many action or comics movies. Many of them are way worse than what I saw in Transformers. I actually found this stuff to be hilarious for the most part. Spider-man 3, Ghost Rider, Fantastic Four, X-men 3, Superman Returns so many other movies of the same vein had me rolling my eyes and bored through almost the entire films.
Good action (and comic) movies require a delicate mix. Add too much action and it becomes boring. Make them too serious and you'll lose people. Don't develop the characters and we end up not caring what happens to them. Add too much (bad) comedy and it overwhelms the movie. The last two are what happened here.
Ultimate source of energy? I thought it was some kind of life-creating thingy. Anyway, the whole cube thing was so vague and glossed over it was kind of insulting.
That's because it was a goddamned McGuffin. It wasn't meant to be in-deapth, or stand up to high levels of scrutiny. It was meant to be a pretext for giant robots beating the shit out of each other on Earth, and it did exactly that.
People died all the time in the tv show. Optimus and the like dieing wasn't really a new concept.
No they didn't.. In fact, they would often take ammounts of punishment far in excess of what killed them in the movie. (For instance, Brawn took a direct hit from Megatron to the chest in an early episode and all it did was imbed him in a wall temporily.. in the movie, a shot to his shoulder takes him out.) Megatron survives being blown the fuck up on a ship filled with Energon. Laserbeak drops a bomb onto Prime's exposed chest and all that happens is the Autobots need a spare part from Cybertron to fix him. Hell, at one point Optimus gets completely dissassembled is nothing more than a talking head for most of the Episode.
Nobody really died until the movie.
didnt jetfire die?
that one giant plane guy that didnt know whether to be an autobot or decepticon
No, he just re-imbedded himself into the ice to stop the Decepticons from mining heat from a giant green crystal that went through Earths core. (This was after the Decepticons had unthawed him from the ice, where he had been for 9 million years). The Autobots held a funeral for him proclaiming "We shall remember."
And then two episodes later (Just two! Two for chrissakes!) they went back to the North pole to dig him out of the ice because they needed a lift to South America (How they got to the North Pole if they were so hard up for a ride, I have no idea....)
If the fact that the soda machine didn't just say COLA and said Mountain Dew is ruining your movie experience, proceed to go and get a damn grip.
Everyone I've talked to loved the movie, as did I. Stepping back and looking at this argument, its like you guys are trying to out pretentious anyone who says the movie was alright. Its like you guys were looking for things to nitpick over and stubbornly refused to enjoy the movie.
I mean seriously, maybe you guys didn't see the same movie I did, but when Optimus and Ironhide had that chat on the observatory ("Why do we waste so much energy defending them? They are a primitive loud species.." "Were we so different once, old friend?") it really seemed the movie had soul as well as whiz bang fighting.
But whatever. I'm sorry you couldn't let yourself be a kid again and enjoy the movie because you were too busy being pretentious on the internet and letting Mountain Dew ruin your experience.
I mean seriously, maybe you guys didn't see the same movie I did, but when Optimus and Ironhide had that chat on the observatory ("Why do we waste so much energy defending them? They are a primitive loud species.." "Were we so different once, old friend?") it really seemed the movie had soul as well as whiz bang fighting.
Haven't you heard that line before in science fiction films? I'm pretty sure I've heard it in Star Trek, and even in that Animorphs book series I read as a kid. There are probably dozens of other examples of alien creatures have that exact exchange at one point or another.
I mean seriously, maybe you guys didn't see the same movie I did, but when Optimus and Ironhide had that chat on the observatory ("Why do we waste so much energy defending them? They are a primitive loud species.." "Were we so different once, old friend?") it really seemed the movie had soul as well as whiz bang fighting.
Haven't you heard that line before in science fiction films? I'm pretty sure I've heard it in Star Trek, and even in that Animorphs book series I read as a kid. There are probably dozens of other examples of alien creatures have that exact exchange at one point or another.
That's not a soul. It's a tacked on facsimile.
Sure, if you choose to interpert it that way. Personally I've always viewed the "Simpsons did it!" argument as bullshit though.
I mean seriously, maybe you guys didn't see the same movie I did, but when Optimus and Ironhide had that chat on the observatory ("Why do we waste so much energy defending them? They are a primitive loud species.." "Were we so different once, old friend?") it really seemed the movie had soul as well as whiz bang fighting.
Haven't you heard that line before in science fiction films? I'm pretty sure I've heard it in Star Trek, and even in that Animorphs book series I read as a kid. There are probably dozens of other examples of alien creatures have that exact exchange at one point or another.
I mean seriously, maybe you guys didn't see the same movie I did, but when Optimus and Ironhide had that chat on the observatory ("Why do we waste so much energy defending them? They are a primitive loud species.." "Were we so different once, old friend?") it really seemed the movie had soul as well as whiz bang fighting.
Haven't you heard that line before in science fiction films? I'm pretty sure I've heard it in Star Trek, and even in that Animorphs book series I read as a kid. There are probably dozens of other examples of alien creatures have that exact exchange at one point or another.
That's not a soul. It's a tacked on facsimile.
Sure, if you choose to interpert it that way. Personally I've always viewed the "Simpsons did it!" argument as bullshit though.
The Simpsons did it argument hinges on the idea that a concept become hackneyed after one use.
The thoughts expressed in the referenced Transformers quote, however, have been used dozens of times in various mass media projects. By that point, I think you're officially a cliche.
And no, it's not my intent to suggest that I'm better than you people, though I'm not sure I could say the same for everyone else on both sides of the argument. It's no secret that pointless derision finds its way into posts all the time, and half the time I'm tempted to say that's the sole reason some of the people I talk to are even here.
Yes, the concept of an "advanced alien race A" not judging the human race because "advanced race A" made the same mistakes in their past is a common theme in sc-fi. That doesn't make it cliche, it makes it a common theme.
Cliche means it's an overused idea. I'm of the opinion that applying the label "cliche" to a reoccuring theme in any form of genre when looking at the history of that genre as a whole, is pretty pointless. The fact that it's been used in a few episodes of TV shows, some books and some movies doesn't strike me as worthy of calling it "cliche".
I consider cliche to be more of a "in a single piece of media" kind of thing. For example there's a movie that MST3K did their thing with that had something like 30 railing deaths (someone gets shot and falls over a railing). To me that is and example of something being overused to the point of being cliche. I have a problem applying that label to something like themes because popular themes are often reused. I'm not going call using a popular theme cliche until it's rampant to the point of being, well, cliche.
I just don't think that a dozen (or even a few dozen) uses of a popular theme, especially when you're talking about three types of media that contain so many works individually (books/TV/movies) warrents complaint.
But then obviously this is all subjective. In the end though I guess I win, because I just enjoyed the hell out of a movie and had a great time and you didn't
*que Martin laugh* :P
Frankly, I don't see why some sci-fi writers are so willing to dismiss the brutality of the humanity as the simple growing pains of a fledgling race. Never mind the genocide, we're just finding our footing.
Well I guess it depends on what view of the human race they're trying to portray. If they want to imply that there's hope for the future it's a pretty easy way to impart that idea. If they want to imply that we're a race without hope of redemption not so much.
It seems to me that the idea that the human race has hope of becoming more than what we currently are has always been the more popular one to use when trying to entertain someone since the alternative is pretty damn depressing
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Right, but obviously it doesn't present that problem for Urb. It might for you, but it doesn't for everyone.
Honestly, I've reached a point where I really don't care. Sure, when the camera pans up on one of the alt-form TFs, they always start at the grill. But, I mean, the pan's gotta start from somewhere.
It honestly didn't feel intrusive to me, and didn't take me out of the experience. I think you just have a lower tolerance for advertising than most Americans do these days. So, while I can understand your problem, and I empathize, it's not a universal problem.
The problem is that product placement, by its very nature, causes this problem. When you can ignore, it isn't working, and if it stops working they're just going to make the camera linger longer and longer on that iPhone until Apple, or whatever company, sees the same acknowledgment and sales spikes they saw when the concept of product placement was first introduced.
It's here to stay, is DESIGNED to ruin your movie experience, and it's going to get more and more annoying until we all start rejecting it.
Well, it really only affects films with budget concerns.
Well I can kind of understand this stance in regards to say the sd card thing but the cars?
It's more distracting when the transformers turn into cars and trucks that don't exist. I should be able to look at optimus or ironhide and go "Yeah that looks like a real truck" They have to turn into real vehicles and pretty much all cars have the logo on the grill or above it. Its realistic and fits better then if they had used generic cars with no labels on them at all.
I never asked for this!
I wasn't even aware Panasonic made SD cards. Surely if they were going for realism they'd have used Sandisk :P
Well, you know, you can write off the cars and trucks because that does make sense, but the other integrated adverts are kind of inexcusable. The word eBay alone must have been used no less than 10 times.
And Transformers is hardly an exception, especially not for Michael Bay. The Island, which Bay directed, featured product placement for 21 individual products ranging from cars to beer to ice cream, all of which were granted their obligatory 2 seconds or more of clear, intrusive screen time.
Hasbro made Transformers to sell toys. As agreeable as "omg, product placement is teh suck", it's like going to Germany and then bitching about the Germans and their drunkard sausage fests. Only drunkard sausage fests are much more enjoyable.
You are right, it's just Transformers. A cartoon in the eighties that served as a commercial for toys more then anything. I wasn't expecting something complex or philosophical or anything like that. I just a wanted to see a good action movie that made me remember why I like transformers so much. This wasn't it.
Poorly written is the best term for it. Derivative and bland are others.
My issues?
- Really bad story which made very little sense and wasn't explained well to boot.
- The "nerdy" guy winning over the jock's girlfriend storyline? How many fucking times do we have to see that before it gets old?
- No character development of the Transformers. None. They just ran around and fought.
- That leads to: the transformers motivations...poorly explained on both sides.
- How many "wacky" characters do we need?
- Trying to cram stupid jokes into every single fucking scene. Cheesy jokes only work if they remain scattered. The "you are more then meets the eye" line would have worked just fine if it hadn't been surrounded on all sides by more poorly written attempts at humour. There were too many instances of this.
- Transformers in my backyard. Went. On. Way. Too. Fucking. Long.
- Motorcycle scene. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?
The big one was the hackers stuff though. If they had ditched that whole bit of pointless crap and did more development of the transformers on both sides it would have worked a lot better. We are kept at a distance from the transformers for the entire movie. So we don't really know anything about them, which makes it really hard to care what happens. Something vaguely bad will happen if he gets this cube!
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
God, I wish people would stop chanting this at me.
I know Hasbro financed the original Transformers show to sell toys, but the sales ploy took on a life of its own and programming rather than product has since become the heart of the franchise, especially in regards to the most recent feature film which has been an immense money maker in its own right, though I'm sure it'll sell some toys as well.
In any case, the complaint is that product placement intrudes upon the films you're watching. Unless you're going to argue that Transformers somehow intrudes upon itself, then the fact that the Transformers franchise has its roots in toy sales is a matter wholly divorced from that of product placement in film.
And your analogy is flawed. Nobody's saying it sucks that Germany/Transformers is filled with Germans/Transformers. They're complaing that all the really big countries now have the Pepsi logo emblazoned on their national landmarks.
Unfortunately, and like I've hinted before, product placement is horrid. However, consumerism is still attached to the Transformer franchise even if nostalgia and giant-robot-lust are dominating attributes now. It's the nature of the beast; I'm sorry if your movie experince was marred by product placement, but frankly, a Mountain Dew dispensing transformer is fucking funny.
I got goosebumps during the fight because I got to see a gun ship in actual use. Granted they said that they flew lower then they normally do because Bay wanted the audience to be able to see the C-130 shooting at Scorpinox
This has me curious. I never saw Pearl Harbor, which I heard he directed. What was that like, insofar as product placement goes?
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I disagree.
It felt pretty well explained to me. Megatron came to Earth to thousands of years ago to find the ultimate source of energy, he crashed, got frozen in ice. Sam's Great Grandfather finds him by mistake and activates one of his homing systems, which causes Decepticons to come to Earth. Decepticons try to steal government computer data to locate the Cube/Megatron. Autobots show up, find the Cube, fight Decepticons, end of first movie.
Whats so bad about that? What would have been an acceptable plot?
So whats a better scenario? Lonely boy with no romantic interest just talks to himself and robots whole movie? Jock gets girl and gets knocked up at 17?
I agree with this point somewhat.
However.... I think the focus of this movie was just setting up/introducing the Transformers, suspense at their arrival/appearance, shock and awe once they are fully revealed.
Which... I enjoyed.
It would have focused too much on the fan's personal interest if they just ignored the human element and suddenly Transformers came down, started talking to each other and formed a ton of sub-plots, even though they just got introduced.
Would have seemed too... fast.
Yeah I somewhat agree with this. All Prime really said in the movie was that Megatron was the betrayer and the Autobots were sworn to fight them and protect humanity. They didn't really explain why they were the good guys, just that they were.
How many were there?
Frenzy and....? (I actually liked him though)
Obviously, you don't watch many action or comics movies. Many of them are way worse than what I saw in Transformers. I actually found this stuff to be hilarious for the most part. Spider-man 3, Ghost Rider, Fantastic Four, X-men 3, Superman Returns so many other movies of the same vein had me rolling my eyes and bored through almost the entire films.
Yeah, I'll give you this one.
I liked it though, because I think it would be awesome/hilarious if the same thing was happening to me.
What? I don't even remember a motorcycle scene.
I somewhat agree, but once again. I think that was the point of the movie to setup the Transformers and put in a good amount of human interaction into it and left us wanting more Transformers action for the second movie.
Also, they made it clear that if Megatron gets the cube, he will pwn earth with Decepticons made from various machines.
ie: Soda machines will rape you.
The Japanese bombers had Mountain Dew logos on the sides.
We didn't need lots of speechifying or moral lessons or anything, we got that the Autobots where good guys and the Decepticons bad guys because they acted like good guys and bad guys.
Optimus refusing to kill humans even to save a friend, and going out of his way to protect humans even while fighting for his life showed us he was a good guy, as did the Decepticons casual disregard for life.
It was all "Buy War Bonds" and shit.
Seriously, you guys, this debate is just getting sillier. I think we've all said our piece by now. Some people like it, some people don't. I say one thing about not noticing product placement and people take me literally. Of course I noticed it. I didn't care. The fact that the cars said GMC on the front did not afect the movie to me in any way. Hell, they could have said Ford, or Honda, or Cock, and it still would have been a movie about robots that turn into cars and back into robots again.
Plot wise, yeah, there were some spots that didn't work well. I think I've seen two movies in my life that I couldn't find things wrong with. Yet I still have many movies I enjoy watching, sometimes even more than once. I'm looking at this as a whole, finished product.
And as a whole, finished product, I liked this movie and would probably pay the 6 bucks to see it again. It was fun.
I think I would have paid more attention to the vehicle if it had "COCK" crafted into it's grill than anything else. While I'm not so much concerned about my product placement apathy, I'm slightly cautious of my budding homosexuality.
When the army guy hops on a motorcycle at the end, then lays it down and slides under one of the Decepticons, shooting it with his little... grenade launcher thing (not too familiar with weapons, sorry).
It was pretty silly, even in the context of giant robots fighting.
I'd say that's only true in a very small number of cases. There are cases of blatant product placement where you're hit over the head with it and I definately agree that can destroy immersion but using GM vehicles or someone having a half full bottle of Coke sitting on thier desks? While those are product placements they aren't painfully overt attempts unless you're already sensitive about the whole idea of product placement in the first place.
The only thing I even noticed as blatant product placement (aside from the GMC thing but, whatever, they're cars and thos emblems would be there in real life anyways) was the Mt Dew machine and it only bothered me for a split second because once it started shooting pop cans at unsuspecting people I was laughing too hard to care. In general I don't find product placement in a modern setting bothersome at all. Did it make me want to buy a Mt. Dew or increase my reguard for that softdrink in any way? No, but to be completely candid I now want a pop machine that transforms and shoots popcans at people.
Seriously, get some people on that.
Product placement in a contemporary setting is, imho, more immersive as long as it makes sense in the context of the events that surround it and it doesn't interrupt the flow of the film. I actually find the opposite to be bothersome. If some movie-hacker is sitting at a computer feverently working to *insert plot device here* and he grabs a bottle of Coke/Pepsi/etc and takes a swig, that makes sense. If he grabs a bottle of *insert fictional made up soda here* and takes a swig I find myself thinking "What the fuck did he just take a drink of?". In one of the finale episodes of this past season of House he buys a candy bar from the machine called "Chomp". The wrapper looked as if it had been designed by a 10 year old with a set of magic markers and was an obvious attempt to avoid using a brand name product. To me that breaks immersion. Had it been a Hershey's bar or a Nestle Crunch? I wouldn't have even noticed what he bought because that's the kind of thing you'd expect to see in a vending machine.
Y'know, as far as products and whatnot go, this is the only one that pissed me off to high heaven. It wasn't the Panasonic thing, either.
If they're going to be downloading copious amounts of government data with high-fidelity Decepticon warbling and whatnot, how in the hell is that going to fit on a 2GB card??? :P
Actually I thought they explained rather well why the Autobots are the good guys and the Decepticons are the bad guys. The whole thing when Prime was talking about why they weren't going to harm any humans, even to save one of their own, because their place was not to judge the human race. Especially not when their own past was rife with the same mistakes. Seemed pretty clear to me.
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Maybe I misunderstood but I thought she was just downloading a sample of the signal that the Decepticons were transmitting, not the entirety of the database the Decepticons hacked.
Panasonic SD cards are just that good.
www.panasonic.com
You product-placing consumerist whore! You've ruined my immersion in this forum!
I laughed at this way harder than I should have. Good show
Sorry, I meant backstory.
Ultimate source of energy? I thought it was some kind of life-creating thingy. Anyway, the whole cube thing was so vague and glossed over it was kind of insulting.
Yes, those are the ONLY two options available. Anything would have been better then something we see in every single teen comedy ever.
I'm not talking about loads of sub-plots here. Just maybe having them talk to each other more then twice in the whole movie? There was plenty of room after the Transformers are revealed to have their characters developed some. Plus there is next to no discussion between the decepticons.
This is not about fan service, this is about developing the transformers characters. Making them interesting, distinct, relateable. Ultimately we don't care about them. Jazz dies? Who cares? He has like two lines in the movie.
Having Bumblebee mute was a big mistake. Interaction between him and Sam would have helped a lot. It would have helped tie the autobots and humans togther.
I'm not even talking about Frenzy. I'm talking about Sector Seven guy and black stereotype #2.
Good action (and comic) movies require a delicate mix. Add too much action and it becomes boring. Make them too serious and you'll lose people. Don't develop the characters and we end up not caring what happens to them. Add too much (bad) comedy and it overwhelms the movie. The last two are what happened here.
Army dude grabs a bike, roars down the street, slides off the bike and along the ground on his back and fires upwards into Blackout. Retarded.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
That's because it was a goddamned McGuffin. It wasn't meant to be in-deapth, or stand up to high levels of scrutiny. It was meant to be a pretext for giant robots beating the shit out of each other on Earth, and it did exactly that.
No, he just re-imbedded himself into the ice to stop the Decepticons from mining heat from a giant green crystal that went through Earths core. (This was after the Decepticons had unthawed him from the ice, where he had been for 9 million years). The Autobots held a funeral for him proclaiming "We shall remember."
And then two episodes later (Just two! Two for chrissakes!) they went back to the North pole to dig him out of the ice because they needed a lift to South America (How they got to the North Pole if they were so hard up for a ride, I have no idea....)
Like I said, nobody really died in the cartoon.
If the fact that the soda machine didn't just say COLA and said Mountain Dew is ruining your movie experience, proceed to go and get a damn grip.
Everyone I've talked to loved the movie, as did I. Stepping back and looking at this argument, its like you guys are trying to out pretentious anyone who says the movie was alright. Its like you guys were looking for things to nitpick over and stubbornly refused to enjoy the movie.
I mean seriously, maybe you guys didn't see the same movie I did, but when Optimus and Ironhide had that chat on the observatory ("Why do we waste so much energy defending them? They are a primitive loud species.." "Were we so different once, old friend?") it really seemed the movie had soul as well as whiz bang fighting.
But whatever. I'm sorry you couldn't let yourself be a kid again and enjoy the movie because you were too busy being pretentious on the internet and letting Mountain Dew ruin your experience.
Those Army Dudes where GI Joe
The head guy being called Lennox was just a cover for his real name... Duke.
Haven't you heard that line before in science fiction films? I'm pretty sure I've heard it in Star Trek, and even in that Animorphs book series I read as a kid. There are probably dozens of other examples of alien creatures have that exact exchange at one point or another.
That's not a soul. It's a tacked on facsimile.
Sure, if you choose to interpert it that way. Personally I've always viewed the "Simpsons did it!" argument as bullshit though.
Yeah we get it, you're way too cool for us.
The Simpsons did it argument hinges on the idea that a concept become hackneyed after one use.
The thoughts expressed in the referenced Transformers quote, however, have been used dozens of times in various mass media projects. By that point, I think you're officially a cliche.
And no, it's not my intent to suggest that I'm better than you people, though I'm not sure I could say the same for everyone else on both sides of the argument. It's no secret that pointless derision finds its way into posts all the time, and half the time I'm tempted to say that's the sole reason some of the people I talk to are even here.
Cliche means it's an overused idea. I'm of the opinion that applying the label "cliche" to a reoccuring theme in any form of genre when looking at the history of that genre as a whole, is pretty pointless. The fact that it's been used in a few episodes of TV shows, some books and some movies doesn't strike me as worthy of calling it "cliche".
I consider cliche to be more of a "in a single piece of media" kind of thing. For example there's a movie that MST3K did their thing with that had something like 30 railing deaths (someone gets shot and falls over a railing). To me that is and example of something being overused to the point of being cliche. I have a problem applying that label to something like themes because popular themes are often reused. I'm not going call using a popular theme cliche until it's rampant to the point of being, well, cliche.
I just don't think that a dozen (or even a few dozen) uses of a popular theme, especially when you're talking about three types of media that contain so many works individually (books/TV/movies) warrents complaint.
But then obviously this is all subjective. In the end though I guess I win, because I just enjoyed the hell out of a movie and had a great time and you didn't
*que Martin laugh* :P
It seems to me that the idea that the human race has hope of becoming more than what we currently are has always been the more popular one to use when trying to entertain someone since the alternative is pretty damn depressing