Everyone was clearly not considered part of the militia. Are you really so resistant to the idea that we should solve the healthcare problem without allowing the government to regulate a decision not to act and force me to buy a product from a private entity?
If the only repercussion of your refusal was a tax penalty, I'm fine with it.
Not if the act carried criminal repercussions, as Sotomayor mused.
If you believe there will be no financial, legal, and criminal repercussions for failing to pay a penalty to the IRS, I have some prime oceanfront property in Kansas for sale very cheap! I can let you in on the ground floor here, one time opportunity.
What I'm saying is that you're asking me to trust that the government that just ordered me to buy insurance because failing to do so would mean dire consequences for this amazing law will continue to just let it slide forever if I refuse.
Pull the other one!
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LudiousI just wanted a sandwich A temporally dislocated QuiznosRegistered Userregular
Getting the average Price of a Playstation 1 console and a Blu Ray player as dictated by eBay, I calculate the minimum value of a Playstation 3 to be £55, or approximately $80.
You don't understand Ludious pricing.
I value a tablet, any tablet at 99.99
Ludious pricing is the "price ludious is willing to pay"
On the west, it's kinda interesting how the country is blue and the cities red.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
If we keep the good shit everyone can agree on in the ACA (eliminating pre-existing conditions), but don't accept the mandates, the shiftless free riders will either be taking money out of the pockets of the responsibly insured or the entire health insurance system will collapse.
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
Reps?
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Ahh, isn't the general welfare part in the preamble? I didn't think that was actually part of the Constitution. Also no one is arguing it before the SCOTUS today,so I don't think it really is a factor regardless.
The Obama administration's interpretation does seem to grant it extremely broad regulatory power, in effect saying "all the things you cannot avoid doing? we can control how you do them".
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Article 1, Section 8. It is also in the preamble.
Ok. The government, I assume, isn't arguing from this clause because they say the mandate penalty isn't a tax, so they can't say they're levying the tax for the general welfare of the people.
Neat!
I was merely pointing out that the general welfare clause does exist beyond the preamble. I believe the ACA falls comfortably within the interstate commerce clause.
"I didn't think the preamble was actually part of the Constitution" may be one of the dumber things I've read on this forum.
The preamble sets out what the government is for, i.e. the sorts of laws and actions that the constitution is supposed to support. The rest is all just limitation on government power to protect the rights espoused within the preamble.
There aren't any rights espoused in the preamble! WTF man? And I meant a binding part of the Constitution.
We, the People, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty, to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
There are no rights in the Preamble. I think you are confused here, dude.
(I wrote that out from memory!)
@Spool32 Yeah, saying rights was a slip up, I mean ideas or concepts espoused.
But all you strict construtctionists love to go after the "meaning of the founders" which is exactly what the preamble is for. Guildelines for interpretation of what follows.
But then the bulk of my mass and like 98% of my strength is in my legs.
Most of me strength is in my legs as well, but it's been since December since I worked out. So getting back into the swing of things is hell on my body. But the pain feels good. I just wish I could sit on the toilet without going "NNnNNnnNGGHHHHH"
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LudiousI just wanted a sandwich A temporally dislocated QuiznosRegistered Userregular
Eliminate pre-existing conditions? That's one of the main things that is fucking so many people up in this country. How can you eliminate one of the most important parts?
(3:22:58 PM) Dan: why is it so friggin hard to buy a good pair of cleats
(3:23:28 PM) Matt: i know, i was just saying the other day, it's friggin hard to buy a good pair of cleats
(3:23:50 PM) Dan: dang straight
(3:23:52 PM) Matt: (i didn't actually say that)
(3:23:52 PM) Dan: ya feel me
(3:24:17 PM) Dan: well, you probably said something like "I like a nicely shaped penis" but i get what you meant
(3:24:25 PM) Matt: every time i look down, yes.
(3:24:35 PM) Dan: TIL...
(3:24:42 PM) Matt: oh right, "today".
If watching TV at home vs watching it in a bar or something was 1/6th of the economy and you not doing so costs the government and taxpayers a ton of money, I would definitely consider regulating this.
"It's really expensive not to" is not a Constitutional justification for regulating something.
9 out of every 10 pro-mandate arguments devolve to "but we really want to do it! A lot!"
that is total disengenious bullshit spool. Seriously, this is full on partisan-shill slobbering Rupert Murdocks shriveled impotent cock.
Good to see you back in the prime of health, Riemann!
Indeed. And aparently the worst of my judgements of your intellect and character are well founded.
Because you don't like the ACA you immediately jump to "9 out of every 10 pro-mandate arguments devolve to "but we really want to do it! A lot!"".
That is utter bullshit and just shows that you are unwilling (incapable? possibly) to even approach this subject in anything but dishonest asshatery.
I've been discussing it sensibly and reasonably for like 10 pages now. Stand down, dude. Fucking hell.
Your scorched-earth bullshit and superior attitude is tiring as fuck.
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LudiousI just wanted a sandwich A temporally dislocated QuiznosRegistered Userregular
But then the bulk of my mass and like 98% of my strength is in my legs.
Most of me strength is in my legs as well, but it's been since December since I worked out. So getting back into the swing of things is hell on my body. But the pain feels good. I just wish I could sit on the toilet without going "NNnNNnnNGGHHHHH"
Ah fair enough :P
I only got back in the gym again in January, so I know that pain very well.
If the only repercussion of your refusal was a tax penalty, I'm fine with it.
Not if the act carried criminal repercussions, as Sotomayor mused.
If you believe there will be no financial, legal, and criminal repercussions for failing to pay a penalty to the IRS, I have some prime oceanfront property in Kansas for sale very cheap! I can let you in on the ground floor here, one time opportunity.
Oh, hi there, Ayn Rand.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
If watching TV at home vs watching it in a bar or something was 1/6th of the economy and you not doing so costs the government and taxpayers a ton of money, I would definitely consider regulating this.
"It's really expensive not to" is not a Constitutional justification for regulating something.
9 out of every 10 pro-mandate arguments devolve to "but we really want to do it! A lot!"
that is total disengenious bullshit spool. Seriously, this is full on partisan-shill slobbering Rupert Murdocks shriveled impotent cock.
Good to see you back in the prime of health, Riemann!
Indeed. And aparently the worst of my judgements of your intellect and character are well founded.
Because you don't like the ACA you immediately jump to "9 out of every 10 pro-mandate arguments devolve to "but we really want to do it! A lot!"".
That is utter bullshit and just shows that you are unwilling (incapable? possibly) to even approach this subject in anything but dishonest asshatery.
I've been discussing it sensibly and reasonably for like 10 pages now. Stand down, dude. Fucking hell.
Your scorched-earth bullshit and superior attitude is tiring as fuck.
If characterising the arguments for the legality of the ACA as "9 out of every 10 pro-mandate arguments devolve to "but we really want to do it! A lot!"" is your idea of "sensibly and reasonably" then you are nearly as insane as Scalia.
edit: especially since your posts on this page have made clear that you were never interested in the actual constitution or legal issues here. Your arguments are (they do not even need to devolve) purely anti-government paranoia.
If you want to argue the abstract ethics of government power that's fine. But don't pretend you are basing your position on the constitution and case law of the USA.
RiemannLives on
Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
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BeNarwhalThe Work Left UnfinishedRegistered Userregular
I've been doing a ton of those for a while and I have no pain.
And therefore no gain.
I was doing this with a 9lb bar on my shoulders. Then we dropped low and did small ...I forgot what it's called but I want to say vibrations.
Oh that's different. What kind of training are you doing?
Well it's called TN'T, but I think it's really strength training. I do that, pilates and yoga. I'm hoping to fit in some cardio but I'm kind of hoping to not lose my new boobs.
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LudiousI just wanted a sandwich A temporally dislocated QuiznosRegistered Userregular
The law requiring people to buy a gun was only for those in the militia. Also, I was talking about the SCOTUS argument today, not circuit court opinions. Of course I'm speculating a bit, because I haven't heard the arguments yet - just read some available reviews.
That second quote is gold to me - from what I've read, one of the keys to getting the mandate declared unconstitutional is convincing justice Kennedy that there's no limiting principle. Anyhow, I hope the Justices don't find this logic persuasive - I want the government to be Constitutionally constrained, not just constrained by common sense or benevolent attitudes.
And everyone was considered part of the militia. If Congress said "everyone is part of the militia and every member of the militia must purchase health insurance" this would change your opinion?
Everyone was clearly not considered part of the militia. Are you really so resistant to the idea that we should solve the healthcare problem without allowing the government to regulate a decision not to act and force me to buy a product from a private entity?
there are other ways to fix this problem that don't involve such an unbounded expansion of federal regulatory power.
Its not an expansion of federal regulatory power. Its one that has long precedent going back to the decision that a farmer could be prohibited from growing wheat for personal consumption because he might have otherwise bought wheat as part of Congress's ability to regulate the interstate wheat market. Requiring people to have a minimum amount of health insurance as a portion of the regulating the health insurance market is not some kind of stretch from that.
Everyone who had rights was considered part of the militia. Would you still say this law was Unconstitutional if it was requiring all men 18-49 to buy guns? If it said everyone had to buy guns? If it said all men 18-49 had to buy health insurance?
Stop pretending its a legal complaint. Its a political complaint. You all but admit it: "there are other ways to fix this problem that don't involve such an unbounded expansion of federal regulatory power."
Slippery slope arguments aren't always fallacies. The exact same justification for the mandate also allows any sort of regulation on personal behavior with regards to health, including a gym membership, a pair of Nikes and a frequent shopper card at Wholefoods.
So what? That's not a legal argument thats a "look at these dumb laws" argument.
85yr old men weren't part of the militia but had rights. I would say that a law requiring all people buy any product is unconstitutional, yes. Congress doesn't have the power to compel private enterprise when the individual is unwilling to engage in it.
It is an expansion of regulatory power, because it regulates doing nothing, as opposed to regulating some action taken.
I'm not pretending it's a legal complaint, and suggestions that I am reveal your partisan opinion. It IS a legal complaint. Your precedent (the wheat growing case, the militia case) don't apply to this case. Give me a bit to link you sources, I don't have them to hand.
The internal political tensions of America make me sad. Speaking from a nation that by its very nature can become hyperpartisan, I have at times seen depressing similarities. Not so much now, because everyone loves power, but still.
I've been doing a ton of those for a while and I have no pain.
And therefore no gain.
I was doing this with a 9lb bar on my shoulders. Then we dropped low and did small ...I forgot what it's called but I want to say vibrations.
Oh that's different. What kind of training are you doing?
Well it's called TN'T, but I think it's really strength training. I do that, pilates and yoga. I'm hoping to fit in some cardio but I'm kind of hoping to not lose my new boobs.
there are ways to get uneven weightloss
they are all variants of liposuction
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LudiousI just wanted a sandwich A temporally dislocated QuiznosRegistered Userregular
I've been doing a ton of those for a while and I have no pain.
And therefore no gain.
I was doing this with a 9lb bar on my shoulders. Then we dropped low and did small ...I forgot what it's called but I want to say vibrations.
Oh that's different. What kind of training are you doing?
Well it's called TN'T, but I think it's really strength training. I do that, pilates and yoga. I'm hoping to fit in some cardio but I'm kind of hoping to not lose my new boobs.
Oh I want to do P90X. Alf did it and he got fucking hot in about two months.
Posts
I was doing this with a 9lb bar on my shoulders. Then we dropped low and did small ...I forgot what it's called but I want to say vibrations.
If you believe there will be no financial, legal, and criminal repercussions for failing to pay a penalty to the IRS, I have some prime oceanfront property in Kansas for sale very cheap! I can let you in on the ground floor here, one time opportunity.
What I'm saying is that you're asking me to trust that the government that just ordered me to buy insurance because failing to do so would mean dire consequences for this amazing law will continue to just let it slide forever if I refuse.
Pull the other one!
You don't understand Ludious pricing.
I value a tablet, any tablet at 99.99
Ludious pricing is the "price ludious is willing to pay"
and as such the rule of the land
The hell.
@Spool32 Yeah, saying rights was a slip up, I mean ideas or concepts espoused.
But all you strict construtctionists love to go after the "meaning of the founders" which is exactly what the preamble is for. Guildelines for interpretation of what follows.
Most of me strength is in my legs as well, but it's been since December since I worked out. So getting back into the swing of things is hell on my body. But the pain feels good. I just wish I could sit on the toilet without going "NNnNNnnNGGHHHHH"
Pain all up in my abs.
curse.com/news/curse/44622-rsvp-now-to-curses-pax-east-party-for-your
totally gonna win.
Tax on hope all up ins.
I've been discussing it sensibly and reasonably for like 10 pages now. Stand down, dude. Fucking hell.
Your scorched-earth bullshit and superior attitude is tiring as fuck.
truly, TRULY nothing sounds more fun than getting drunk with a bunch of wow players who are totally into plugins.
Since I literally never see it outside american politics.
Oh that's different. What kind of training are you doing?
Ah fair enough :P
I only got back in the gym again in January, so I know that pain very well.
If you started seeing it outside American politics, then all arguments would be based on the slippery slope!
slip n slides are an american made product and as such slippery slopes do not exist outside of the purview of murica
certainty is tax free.
Oh, hi there, Ayn Rand.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
If characterising the arguments for the legality of the ACA as "9 out of every 10 pro-mandate arguments devolve to "but we really want to do it! A lot!"" is your idea of "sensibly and reasonably" then you are nearly as insane as Scalia.
edit: especially since your posts on this page have made clear that you were never interested in the actual constitution or legal issues here. Your arguments are (they do not even need to devolve) purely anti-government paranoia.
If you want to argue the abstract ethics of government power that's fine. But don't pretend you are basing your position on the constitution and case law of the USA.
That's the polite way to put it.
My dad always called it "a tax on idiots".
Didn't stop me from buying the occasional ticket
Well it's called TN'T, but I think it's really strength training. I do that, pilates and yoga. I'm hoping to fit in some cardio but I'm kind of hoping to not lose my new boobs.
and then the other people could say
no because we're not for that. We're for this right here and point at some papers where they have written down the things they are for and against.
85yr old men weren't part of the militia but had rights. I would say that a law requiring all people buy any product is unconstitutional, yes. Congress doesn't have the power to compel private enterprise when the individual is unwilling to engage in it.
It is an expansion of regulatory power, because it regulates doing nothing, as opposed to regulating some action taken.
I'm not pretending it's a legal complaint, and suggestions that I am reveal your partisan opinion. It IS a legal complaint. Your precedent (the wheat growing case, the militia case) don't apply to this case. Give me a bit to link you sources, I don't have them to hand.
Religion.
Im going to do it thursday when im off damnit!
there.
healthcare debate solved.
there are ways to get uneven weightloss
they are all variants of liposuction
well golly gee get out the macy's floats and lets have a parade ORGANICHU HAS SOLVED EVERYTHING
ಠ_ಠ
I took yours out of the spoilers where they could not be read.
Oh I want to do P90X. Alf did it and he got fucking hot in about two months.