That, collectively, is the worst collection of comic art I've seen in some great time. Even worse that it's supposed to be "special edition" type shit.
But it's good to know that after 20 years of being a joke and an industry pariah, Rob Liefield still hasn't tried to be any less of shitty artist. Good god, that Grifter cover. Is he shooting around a corner? Why is one of his hands so tiny? And can Liefield still not draw fingers or feet? Appears not.
The one constant we have in this universe is that Rob Liefeld will never learn how to become a better artist.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
That, collectively, is the worst collection of comic art I've seen in some great time. Even worse that it's supposed to be "special edition" type shit.
But it's good to know that after 20 years of being a joke and an industry pariah, Rob Liefield still hasn't tried to be any less of shitty artist. Good god, that Grifter cover. Is he shooting around a corner? Why is one of his hands so tiny? And can Liefield still not draw fingers or feet? Appears not.
The one constant we have in this universe is that Rob Liefeld will never learn how to become a better artist.
I recall when the Shatterstar thing hit I wanted to write an article about it for Pink Kryptonite so I signed up for the Liefeld forums to see the actual discussion, and make sure it wasn't being taken out of context. My IP address was banned after 30 seconds, before I could even find the post.
I never did decide if their admins were assholes or just being flooded by people from the net on the issue.
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
That, collectively, is the worst collection of comic art I've seen in some great time. Even worse that it's supposed to be "special edition" type shit.
But it's good to know that after 20 years of being a joke and an industry pariah, Rob Liefield still hasn't tried to be any less of shitty artist. Good god, that Grifter cover. Is he shooting around a corner? Why is one of his hands so tiny? And can Liefield still not draw fingers or feet? Appears not.
The one constant we have in this universe is that Rob Liefeld will never learn how to become a better artist.
Yet he keeps getting paid to be a feature artist.
<<<<<<<
Two reason for that. 1) He's controversial enough to bring a temporarily spike in sales and 2) he's got good connections in the industry, like Loeb.
That, collectively, is the worst collection of comic art I've seen in some great time. Even worse that it's supposed to be "special edition" type shit.
But it's good to know that after 20 years of being a joke and an industry pariah, Rob Liefield still hasn't tried to be any less of shitty artist. Good god, that Grifter cover. Is he shooting around a corner? Why is one of his hands so tiny? And can Liefield still not draw fingers or feet? Appears not.
I'm a talented artist. It pisses me off to no end that Rob Liefield is still getting paid to draw for comics and is not, oh, dead in a fucking ditch somewhere.
From what I've read, Liefeld is basically the inverse of House. He's pretty bad, but he turns his work in exactly when you need it and is the only nice guy in an industry rife with assholes.
That, collectively, is the worst collection of comic art I've seen in some great time. Even worse that it's supposed to be "special edition" type shit.
But it's good to know that after 20 years of being a joke and an industry pariah, Rob Liefield still hasn't tried to be any less of shitty artist. Good god, that Grifter cover. Is he shooting around a corner? Why is one of his hands so tiny? And can Liefield still not draw fingers or feet? Appears not.
I'm a talented artist. It pisses me off to no end that Rob Liefield is still getting paid to draw for comics and is not, oh, dead in a fucking ditch somewhere.
From what I've read, Liefeld is basically the inverse of House. He's pretty bad, but he turns his work in exactly when you need it and is the only nice guy in an industry rife with assholes.
Not all the time. He's been very late occasionally, like when he was the artist for Wolverine (or was it Cable?) when he came back post-Heroes Reborn. His lateness was so bad what was meant to be a long run ended within 5 issues. IIRC Liefeld not finishing projects has become a signature for him. A few creator owned projects have only gotten a few issues published before being canceled so he can concentrate on his newest creation.
Harry Dresden on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
He's incompetent. Utterly. As in, "he is unsuited and inappropriate for the job he is being paid for."
I don't care if my doctor is the nicest chap in the world. If I go in for an appendectomy and come out with my penis on my forehead, I'm not going to applaud how quickly he did the job.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
He's incompetent. Utterly. As in, "he is unsuited and inappropriate for the job he is being paid for."
I don't care if my doctor is the nicest chap in the world. If I go in for an appendectomy and come out with my penis on my forehead, I'm not going to applaud how quickly he did the job.
...you gotta admit, the 30 minute guarantee is pretty impressive.
He's incompetent. Utterly. As in, "he is unsuited and inappropriate for the job he is being paid for."
I don't care if my doctor is the nicest chap in the world. If I go in for an appendectomy and come out with my penis on my forehead, I'm not going to applaud how quickly he did the job.
you're not going to sue him either
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
He's incompetent. Utterly. As in, "he is unsuited and inappropriate for the job he is being paid for."
I don't care if my doctor is the nicest chap in the world. If I go in for an appendectomy and come out with my penis on my forehead, I'm not going to applaud how quickly he did the job.
you're not going to sue him either
Oh, believe you me, Mr. Bonerface will be in a litigious mood.
The time thing makes a lot more sense when you read other writers and artists bitching about how they get in trouble when they do the equivalent of leaving the patient on the table so long that he expires.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
They got a significant boost of about 5% across the board after the relaunch, I think. That may have tailed off after a year, but it was definitely worth it from a business standpoint. It's far above a vague, slight success.
Which isn't to say it's solved any of the chronic problems in the direct comics market or reversed the endless fall towards extinction that DC and Marvel seem to be headed towards, but still.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
As well, for a project that explicitly for the purpose of expanding the readership, just about every new title was built to pander to the same old neckbeards, some even more than they already did.
As far as I can tell, DC's master plan was simply just relabeling all the books #1. They didn't write new books for any new markets (young adults, sci-fi, romance, horror, mystery, crime), and they doubled down on the stupid.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
As well, for a project that explicitly for the purpose of expanding the readership, just about every new title was built to pander to the same old neckbeards, some even more than they already did.
As far as I can tell, DC's master plan was simply just relabeling all the books #1. They didn't write new books for any new markets (young adults, sci-fi, romance, horror, mystery, crime), and they doubled down on the stupid.
I think the other big issue they had is that while they relabelled them all #1 and relaunched. They relaunched into an already integrated universe. Want to find out what happened with the Green Lantern? Well you'd better read Superman and Wonderwoman too, because the story continues there. People like #1s because they are usually self contained little stories, it's why I enjoyed invincible so much for so long. Want to find out what happens next? Then buy the next issue of the same book. The same was true for the 'mainstream' comics I enjoyed.
Avoiding the overly shared universe would have helped a lot with producing comics which would have expanded the appeal. Want to produce a comic with a 'normal' looking hero? Well they are going to look absurd if they are in the justice league with starfire or whatever and they are wearing normal clothes and have a regular build. But if their comic is set in Austria or something, and there isn't a crossover to US based superheroes then it's not so difficult.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
As well, for a project that explicitly for the purpose of expanding the readership, just about every new title was built to pander to the same old neckbeards, some even more than they already did.
As far as I can tell, DC's master plan was simply just relabeling all the books #1. They didn't write new books for any new markets (young adults, sci-fi, romance, horror, mystery, crime), and they doubled down on the stupid.
I think the other big issue they had is that while they relabelled them all #1 and relaunched. They relaunched into an already integrated universe. Want to find out what happened with the Green Lantern? Well you'd better read Superman and Wonderwoman too, because the story continues there. People like #1s because they are usually self contained little stories, it's why I enjoyed invincible so much for so long. Want to find out what happens next? Then buy the next issue of the same book. The same was true for the 'mainstream' comics I enjoyed.
Avoiding the overly shared universe would have helped a lot with producing comics which would have expanded the appeal. Want to produce a comic with a 'normal' looking hero? Well they are going to look absurd if they are in the justice league with starfire or whatever and they are wearing normal clothes and have a regular build. But if their comic is set in Austria or something, and there isn't a crossover to US based superheroes then it's not so difficult.
I'm still bitter that they abandoned the old DCU without giving people who were fans of those characters and those versions of characters any attempt at closure.
If they were going to ditch a whole universe of developed characters they could have at least put some fucking effort into it and go out with a bang. They had the chance to do something they generally can't do: endings. They should have gone nuts. Big storylines with big things happening and shit actually getting wrapped up in some manner. But instead of ending the old DCU, they just...stopped it.
Instead of leaving the old universe on a fulfilling, satisfying note, all of these characters stop in the middle of their ongoing stories. Did you like the old versions of Wonder Woman or the Birds of Prey? Well too bad and fuck you, because not only are we going to make it so their stories definitely didn't happen in the DCNU, we're going to not even give you a nice final story for them. And olol if you liked Wally West or Steph Brown.
It exposes the biggest flaw of the whole system. They spend all this time building a shared, continuity based universe. They spend all this time asking us to get invested in this universe, invested in the continuity, invested in the ongoing stories of the characters. And then they jerk the readers around. You can't tell people continuity matters and then turn around and fuck over the people who believed you and put in the money and effort to follow it. And now they're trying to do it all over again. Well they won't do it to me again.
I'm sticking to self contained stuff and manga, because DC has proven enough times that they can't do continuity properly.
The biggest problem is that resetting the universe completely was a hasty corporate decision purely based around juicing sales. This was made obvious by all the basic questions about characters and what in the past counted/didn't count that DC literally had to go back and come up for answers for after the fact.
Still, the new 52 could have worked if they had given everyone involved more time and planning. A few more months to wrap up old storylines. Time for editors and creators to really sit down and think all the details through in creating an intelligent, compelling new continuity and storyline. Careful attention paid to plots, so that great stories could be told without incorporating stereotypically off-putting details like "oh yeah, this superhero is also a stripper for some reason." I think it's entirely possible to have created a new universe that's much more welcoming to new fans without completely alienating the old ones.
The biggest problem is that resetting the universe completely was a hasty corporate decision purely based around juicing sales. This was made obvious by all the basic questions about characters and what in the past counted/didn't count that DC literally had to go back and come up for answers for after the fact.
Still, the new 52 could have worked if they had given everyone involved more time and planning. A few more months to wrap up old storylines. Time for editors and creators to really sit down and think all the details through in creating an intelligent, compelling new continuity and storyline. Careful attention paid to plots, so that great stories could be told without incorporating stereotypically off-putting details like "oh yeah, this superhero is also a stripper for some reason." I think it's entirely possible to have created a new universe that's much more welcoming to new fans without completely alienating the old ones.
But, for whatever reason*, they didn't.
*The most likely reason being PROFITS!!! NAOW!!!!
If I remember correctly, it was clearly noted that she was undercover for a short period, and a large number of people who like to ape feminism decided to take stuff out of context to meet the outrage quota of the week. That is, of course, on top of the oddity of attacking depictions of women that own their sexuality.
I also think the most recent issue dispensed with most of the cast and revealed that the stripper was actually the evil clone of the actual main character, who was just introduced.
I just despise how the old one was so casually tossed aside.
Yeah, Flashpoint wasn't exactly Crisis on Infinite Earths or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. Instead of seeing familiar characters in their finest hour, we saw Barry Allen hang out in an alternate universe and then inadvertently overwrite his universe with a new one.
The biggest problem is that resetting the universe completely was a hasty corporate decision purely based around juicing sales. This was made obvious by all the basic questions about characters and what in the past counted/didn't count that DC literally had to go back and come up for answers for after the fact.
Still, the new 52 could have worked if they had given everyone involved more time and planning. A few more months to wrap up old storylines. Time for editors and creators to really sit down and think all the details through in creating an intelligent, compelling new continuity and storyline. Careful attention paid to plots, so that great stories could be told without incorporating stereotypically off-putting details like "oh yeah, this superhero is also a stripper for some reason." I think it's entirely possible to have created a new universe that's much more welcoming to new fans without completely alienating the old ones.
But, for whatever reason*, they didn't.
*The most likely reason being PROFITS!!! NAOW!!!!
If I remember correctly, it was clearly noted that she was undercover for a short period, and a large number of people who like to ape feminism decided to take stuff out of context to meet the outrage quota of the week. That is, of course, on top of the oddity of attacking depictions of women that own their sexuality.
It's still a wee bit of a barrier to opening things up to a broader audience, since it can be easily seen as, well, all the other crap comics have been doing for the last 20 years to drive away all but the diehards.
And as Robos indicated, apparently the creators also thought it was a big mistake in retrospect.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
As well, for a project that explicitly for the purpose of expanding the readership, just about every new title was built to pander to the same old neckbeards, some even more than they already did.
As far as I can tell, DC's master plan was simply just relabeling all the books #1. They didn't write new books for any new markets (young adults, sci-fi, romance, horror, mystery, crime), and they doubled down on the stupid.
I think the other big issue they had is that while they relabelled them all #1 and relaunched. They relaunched into an already integrated universe. Want to find out what happened with the Green Lantern? Well you'd better read Superman and Wonderwoman too, because the story continues there. People like #1s because they are usually self contained little stories, it's why I enjoyed invincible so much for so long. Want to find out what happens next? Then buy the next issue of the same book. The same was true for the 'mainstream' comics I enjoyed.
Avoiding the overly shared universe would have helped a lot with producing comics which would have expanded the appeal. Want to produce a comic with a 'normal' looking hero? Well they are going to look absurd if they are in the justice league with starfire or whatever and they are wearing normal clothes and have a regular build. But if their comic is set in Austria or something, and there isn't a crossover to US based superheroes then it's not so difficult.
That didn't happen.
At all.
Err,yes it did. You're saying that the 'new 52' doesn't have crossover stories and heavy referencing to stuff happening in other books? That the flashpoint event didn't have that? Because it did.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
As well, for a project that explicitly for the purpose of expanding the readership, just about every new title was built to pander to the same old neckbeards, some even more than they already did.
As far as I can tell, DC's master plan was simply just relabeling all the books #1. They didn't write new books for any new markets (young adults, sci-fi, romance, horror, mystery, crime), and they doubled down on the stupid.
I think the other big issue they had is that while they relabelled them all #1 and relaunched. They relaunched into an already integrated universe. Want to find out what happened with the Green Lantern? Well you'd better read Superman and Wonderwoman too, because the story continues there. People like #1s because they are usually self contained little stories, it's why I enjoyed invincible so much for so long. Want to find out what happens next? Then buy the next issue of the same book. The same was true for the 'mainstream' comics I enjoyed.
Avoiding the overly shared universe would have helped a lot with producing comics which would have expanded the appeal. Want to produce a comic with a 'normal' looking hero? Well they are going to look absurd if they are in the justice league with starfire or whatever and they are wearing normal clothes and have a regular build. But if their comic is set in Austria or something, and there isn't a crossover to US based superheroes then it's not so difficult.
That didn't happen.
At all.
Err,yes it did. You're saying that the 'new 52' doesn't have crossover stories and heavy referencing to stuff happening in other books? That the flashpoint event didn't have that? Because it did.
Flashpoint did, but I can't recall much of that in new 52. Maybe Justice League Dark.
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I also think the most recent issue dispensed with most of the cast and revealed that the stripper was actually the evil clone of the actual main character, who was just introduced.
Which looks suspiciously like a retcon DC have made after firing the original writer. ANd yeah, she was an undercover stripper, but since the first issue had her on her hands and knees in lingerie surrounded by dudes throwing dollar bills at her on a splash page I think it's a little disingenuous to pretend people were only acting pissed off to fill an outrage quota. It was one of the very, very few books DC were putting out with a lead female character and in issue one she's a stripper giving the reader an eyeful of her tits. Adding it to the comics with Starfire and Catwoman that launched the same month didn't help.
But sure, it was probably just those fake feminists we keep hearing about.
You can do a story about a stripper and have it be brilliant and well written and amazingly drawn, like Brubaker and Sean Phillips managed in criminal, or you can have it be a cheap excuse for some cheesecake, which is what Voodoo seemed to be going for.
I just despise how the old one was so casually tossed aside.
Yeah, Flashpoint wasn't exactly Crisis on Infinite Earths or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. Instead of seeing familiar characters in their finest hour, we saw Barry Allen hang out in an alternate universe and then inadvertently overwrite his universe with a new one.
Surely he didn't overwrite everything. I mean, did he intentionally change Wonder Woman's origin and do the same with the greek gods? What about events in other planets? How did he get there? Why did he change stuff? Why are key events in Batman's history closer together? To accomplish this he'd have to have known about Jason Todd's death by the Joker. I find it difficult to believe he'd have let that happen with his new time traveling super-powers. He's erase it instead IMO. Not to mention Wally West has disappeared from the universe with no explanation, along with Donna Troy. Surely Barry isn't such a dick he'd erase those two from every existing. One was his sidekick and successor, after all. The other was the sidekick for Wonder Woman, one of the DCU's most respected super-heroines.
I just despise how the old one was so casually tossed aside.
Yeah, Flashpoint wasn't exactly Crisis on Infinite Earths or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. Instead of seeing familiar characters in their finest hour, we saw Barry Allen hang out in an alternate universe and then inadvertently overwrite his universe with a new one.
Surely he didn't overwrite everything. I mean, did he intentionally change Wonder Woman's origin and do the same with the greek gods? What about events in other planets? How did he get there? Why did he change stuff? Why are key events in Batman's history closer together? To accomplish this he'd have to have known about Jason Todd's death by the Joker. I find it difficult to believe he'd have let that happen with his new time traveling super-powers. He's erase it instead IMO. Not to mention Wally West has disappeared from the universe with no explanation, along with Donna Troy. Surely Barry isn't such a dick he'd erase those two from every existing. One was his sidekick and successor, after all. The other was the sidekick for Wonder Woman, one of the DCU's most respected super-heroines.
I don't remember exactly how Flashpoint ended, but I do know that Barry was responsible for rebuilding the previous universe and that he failed to do so (partly because of the interference enigmatic cosmic entity #5532342).
If the story took place at any other point in the company's history, Barry would now be striving to restore things as they were and bring back his friends and family. Instead, because DC decided to reboot everything, a new universe has come to fruition and Barry's old universe has been lost.
I just despise how the old one was so casually tossed aside.
Yeah, Flashpoint wasn't exactly Crisis on Infinite Earths or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. Instead of seeing familiar characters in their finest hour, we saw Barry Allen hang out in an alternate universe and then inadvertently overwrite his universe with a new one.
Surely he didn't overwrite everything. I mean, did he intentionally change Wonder Woman's origin and do the same with the greek gods? What about events in other planets? How did he get there? Why did he change stuff? Why are key events in Batman's history closer together? To accomplish this he'd have to have known about Jason Todd's death by the Joker. I find it difficult to believe he'd have let that happen with his new time traveling super-powers. He's erase it instead IMO. Not to mention Wally West has disappeared from the universe with no explanation, along with Donna Troy. Surely Barry isn't such a dick he'd erase those two from every existing. One was his sidekick and successor, after all. The other was the sidekick for Wonder Woman, one of the DCU's most respected super-heroines.
So anyway. How are DC comics selling lately? I'm very curious to see what the long-term effects of the New 52 are.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
As well, for a project that explicitly for the purpose of expanding the readership, just about every new title was built to pander to the same old neckbeards, some even more than they already did.
As far as I can tell, DC's master plan was simply just relabeling all the books #1. They didn't write new books for any new markets (young adults, sci-fi, romance, horror, mystery, crime), and they doubled down on the stupid.
I think the other big issue they had is that while they relabelled them all #1 and relaunched. They relaunched into an already integrated universe. Want to find out what happened with the Green Lantern? Well you'd better read Superman and Wonderwoman too, because the story continues there. People like #1s because they are usually self contained little stories, it's why I enjoyed invincible so much for so long. Want to find out what happens next? Then buy the next issue of the same book. The same was true for the 'mainstream' comics I enjoyed.
Avoiding the overly shared universe would have helped a lot with producing comics which would have expanded the appeal. Want to produce a comic with a 'normal' looking hero? Well they are going to look absurd if they are in the justice league with starfire or whatever and they are wearing normal clothes and have a regular build. But if their comic is set in Austria or something, and there isn't a crossover to US based superheroes then it's not so difficult.
That didn't happen.
At all.
Err,yes it did. You're saying that the 'new 52' doesn't have crossover stories and heavy referencing to stuff happening in other books? That the flashpoint event didn't have that? Because it did.
Err, no it didn't.
You never have to read another book for a series to make sense. References are made but not in a way that you don't get the story you are reading.
I'm not even going to comment on Flashpoint since that isn't what we are talking about and I don't know why you brought it up.
Posts
The one constant we have in this universe is that Rob Liefeld will never learn how to become a better artist.
Yet he keeps getting paid to be a feature artist.
<<<<<<<
I never did decide if their admins were assholes or just being flooded by people from the net on the issue.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Two reason for that. 1) He's controversial enough to bring a temporarily spike in sales and 2) he's got good connections in the industry, like Loeb.
From what I've read, Liefeld is basically the inverse of House. He's pretty bad, but he turns his work in exactly when you need it and is the only nice guy in an industry rife with assholes.
Not all the time. He's been very late occasionally, like when he was the artist for Wolverine (or was it Cable?) when he came back post-Heroes Reborn. His lateness was so bad what was meant to be a long run ended within 5 issues. IIRC Liefeld not finishing projects has become a signature for him. A few creator owned projects have only gotten a few issues published before being canceled so he can concentrate on his newest creation.
He's incompetent. Utterly. As in, "he is unsuited and inappropriate for the job he is being paid for."
I don't care if my doctor is the nicest chap in the world. If I go in for an appendectomy and come out with my penis on my forehead, I'm not going to applaud how quickly he did the job.
...you gotta admit, the 30 minute guarantee is pretty impressive.
you're not going to sue him either
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Oh, believe you me, Mr. Bonerface will be in a litigious mood.
The Litigious Mr. Bonerface sounds like it might be a fun movie
For some reason, that needs to star Jimmy Stewart.
Still above the old numbers, but down from the peak. It seems like there's an asymptotic loss of readership where the asymptote is set very slightly above the old readership numbers.
So... kinda vague slight success, I guess?
That's all they can really hope for really, I mean, they didn't increase the quality of the comics. There is still great stuff and dross, it's just 'newer'. So the only new long term readers they will get is people who already would have liked the old stuff. The only way to bring numbers up permanently is to get comics back into the social mainstream, back on the shelves in supermarkets, back in kids hands in schools etc. Until both the kid being bullied, and the bully are reading comics it's not where comics need to be to be big. (bad example I know, but I was trying to portray how ubiquitous they used to be)
I think it's been said before, but considering so many of the new 52 featured blood n' boobies I think they could have done a better job of making the comics a little more accessible to a wider audience.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I think they certainly could have done with a few more 'mainstream' titles, and while I hate to reference that annoying 'Oooh, you ruined starfire!' comic, they did mess up a lot of characters who could have played to the 'I want a comic I'm not embarrassed to read' crowd a bit more'.
As well, for a project that explicitly for the purpose of expanding the readership, just about every new title was built to pander to the same old neckbeards, some even more than they already did.
As far as I can tell, DC's master plan was simply just relabeling all the books #1. They didn't write new books for any new markets (young adults, sci-fi, romance, horror, mystery, crime), and they doubled down on the stupid.
I think the other big issue they had is that while they relabelled them all #1 and relaunched. They relaunched into an already integrated universe. Want to find out what happened with the Green Lantern? Well you'd better read Superman and Wonderwoman too, because the story continues there. People like #1s because they are usually self contained little stories, it's why I enjoyed invincible so much for so long. Want to find out what happens next? Then buy the next issue of the same book. The same was true for the 'mainstream' comics I enjoyed.
Avoiding the overly shared universe would have helped a lot with producing comics which would have expanded the appeal. Want to produce a comic with a 'normal' looking hero? Well they are going to look absurd if they are in the justice league with starfire or whatever and they are wearing normal clothes and have a regular build. But if their comic is set in Austria or something, and there isn't a crossover to US based superheroes then it's not so difficult.
That didn't happen.
At all.
If they were going to ditch a whole universe of developed characters they could have at least put some fucking effort into it and go out with a bang. They had the chance to do something they generally can't do: endings. They should have gone nuts. Big storylines with big things happening and shit actually getting wrapped up in some manner. But instead of ending the old DCU, they just...stopped it.
Instead of leaving the old universe on a fulfilling, satisfying note, all of these characters stop in the middle of their ongoing stories. Did you like the old versions of Wonder Woman or the Birds of Prey? Well too bad and fuck you, because not only are we going to make it so their stories definitely didn't happen in the DCNU, we're going to not even give you a nice final story for them. And olol if you liked Wally West or Steph Brown.
It exposes the biggest flaw of the whole system. They spend all this time building a shared, continuity based universe. They spend all this time asking us to get invested in this universe, invested in the continuity, invested in the ongoing stories of the characters. And then they jerk the readers around. You can't tell people continuity matters and then turn around and fuck over the people who believed you and put in the money and effort to follow it. And now they're trying to do it all over again. Well they won't do it to me again.
I'm sticking to self contained stuff and manga, because DC has proven enough times that they can't do continuity properly.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Still, the new 52 could have worked if they had given everyone involved more time and planning. A few more months to wrap up old storylines. Time for editors and creators to really sit down and think all the details through in creating an intelligent, compelling new continuity and storyline. Careful attention paid to plots, so that great stories could be told without incorporating stereotypically off-putting details like "oh yeah, this superhero is also a stripper for some reason." I think it's entirely possible to have created a new universe that's much more welcoming to new fans without completely alienating the old ones.
But, for whatever reason*, they didn't.
*The most likely reason being PROFITS!!! NAOW!!!!
If I remember correctly, it was clearly noted that she was undercover for a short period, and a large number of people who like to ape feminism decided to take stuff out of context to meet the outrage quota of the week. That is, of course, on top of the oddity of attacking depictions of women that own their sexuality.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I just despise how the old one was so casually tossed aside.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Yeah, Flashpoint wasn't exactly Crisis on Infinite Earths or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. Instead of seeing familiar characters in their finest hour, we saw Barry Allen hang out in an alternate universe and then inadvertently overwrite his universe with a new one.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
It's still a wee bit of a barrier to opening things up to a broader audience, since it can be easily seen as, well, all the other crap comics have been doing for the last 20 years to drive away all but the diehards.
And as Robos indicated, apparently the creators also thought it was a big mistake in retrospect.
Err,yes it did. You're saying that the 'new 52' doesn't have crossover stories and heavy referencing to stuff happening in other books? That the flashpoint event didn't have that? Because it did.
Flashpoint did, but I can't recall much of that in new 52. Maybe Justice League Dark.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Which looks suspiciously like a retcon DC have made after firing the original writer. ANd yeah, she was an undercover stripper, but since the first issue had her on her hands and knees in lingerie surrounded by dudes throwing dollar bills at her on a splash page I think it's a little disingenuous to pretend people were only acting pissed off to fill an outrage quota. It was one of the very, very few books DC were putting out with a lead female character and in issue one she's a stripper giving the reader an eyeful of her tits. Adding it to the comics with Starfire and Catwoman that launched the same month didn't help.
But sure, it was probably just those fake feminists we keep hearing about.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Surely he didn't overwrite everything. I mean, did he intentionally change Wonder Woman's origin and do the same with the greek gods? What about events in other planets? How did he get there? Why did he change stuff? Why are key events in Batman's history closer together? To accomplish this he'd have to have known about Jason Todd's death by the Joker. I find it difficult to believe he'd have let that happen with his new time traveling super-powers. He's erase it instead IMO. Not to mention Wally West has disappeared from the universe with no explanation, along with Donna Troy. Surely Barry isn't such a dick he'd erase those two from every existing. One was his sidekick and successor, after all. The other was the sidekick for Wonder Woman, one of the DCU's most respected super-heroines.
I don't remember exactly how Flashpoint ended, but I do know that Barry was responsible for rebuilding the previous universe and that he failed to do so (partly because of the interference enigmatic cosmic entity #5532342).
If the story took place at any other point in the company's history, Barry would now be striving to restore things as they were and bring back his friends and family. Instead, because DC decided to reboot everything, a new universe has come to fruition and Barry's old universe has been lost.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I think it's something like the Madoka ending.
Err, no it didn't.
You never have to read another book for a series to make sense. References are made but not in a way that you don't get the story you are reading.
I'm not even going to comment on Flashpoint since that isn't what we are talking about and I don't know why you brought it up.