Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
Really? Turok was the "worst" game two generations ago. The most graphic thing it depicted was heads exploding. Now days they're trying to be imaginative and create the most elaborate death sequences in a frenzied race to out do each other.
I think quick-time events are fine when they feel natural, e.g. you don't have to press a special button to swing your knife, instead the left mouse button which you also normally use for that kind of action, and it's responsive.
So if you were expecting a carefully-told and gradual narrative about how Lara becomes a killing machine, well, prepare yourself for disappointment. I know @-Tal will be pissed among others
I'd rather have a game where Lara isn't a killing machine at all, but I'm sure that's just me.
So if you were expecting a carefully-told and gradual narrative about how Lara becomes a killing machine, well, prepare yourself for disappointment. I know @-Tal will be pissed among others
I'd rather have a game where Lara isn't a killing machine at all, but I'm sure that's just me.
Lara Croft: Museum Curator
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
So if you were expecting a carefully-told and gradual narrative about how Lara becomes a killing machine, well, prepare yourself for disappointment. I know @-Tal will be pissed among others
I'd rather have a game where Lara isn't a killing machine at all, but I'm sure that's just me.
Lara Croft: Museum Curator
there are options for action & tension that don't involve mass murder!
But they will find a way to make it about elder gods
I do find it rather interesting what drove a lot of people to buy it on steam was the multiplayer area even though I have no idea what it will be about
So if you were expecting a carefully-told and gradual narrative about how Lara becomes a killing machine, well, prepare yourself for disappointment. I know @-Tal will be pissed among others
I'd rather have a game where Lara isn't a killing machine at all, but I'm sure that's just me.
Lara Croft: Museum Curator
there are options for action & tension that don't involve mass murder!
mass murder? there's only like, three protagonists in Tomb Raider
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
edited February 2013
Hell, I enjoy a good manshoot sometimes, I'd just like some more varied alternatives. See also: Watch Dogs. It looks great, but man was I disappointed when he pulled out a gun and started shooting in that first video.
UnbrokenEva on
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
So if you were expecting a carefully-told and gradual narrative about how Lara becomes a killing machine, well, prepare yourself for disappointment. I know @-Tal will be pissed among others
I'd rather have a game where Lara isn't a killing machine at all, but I'm sure that's just me.
Lara Croft: Museum Curator
there are options for action & tension that don't involve mass murder!
mass murder? there's only like, three protagonists in Tomb Raider
Hell, I enjoy a good manshoot sometimes, I'd just like some more varied alternatives. See also: Watch Dogs. It looks great, but man was I disappointed when he pulled out a gun and started shooting in that first video.
well the car crash didn't quite do it. what about the second video?
I believe the number of humanoids I killed in my World of Warcraft career was well into the tens of thousands. And I killed a lot of those just because they were warthog people or because some guy had a hankering for the eggs of a sentient species.
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
Hell, I enjoy a good manshoot sometimes, I'd just like some more varied alternatives. See also: Watch Dogs. It looks great, but man was I disappointed when he pulled out a gun and started shooting in that first video.
well the car crash didn't quite do it. what about the second video?
the second video was neat!
it looks like there may be enough options that it doesn't need to be yet another open world shooter
but I'd still love to see more action games designed around non-combat mechanics, or minimal combat.
I also killed a lot of humanoids who were the equivalent of children or babies. I think there's more than one kindergarten-equivalent you shoot up with your bow in the dungeons.
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
but anyways, Tomb Raider!
This game does look like it could be really fun, and if it's more Far Cry than Uncharted then even better
the "life or death quick time events!" thing has me concerned though
and that throat impaling death gif just fucking no thank you
Hell, I enjoy a good manshoot sometimes, I'd just like some more varied alternatives. See also: Watch Dogs. It looks great, but man was I disappointed when he pulled out a gun and started shooting in that first video.
I'm hoping that the game can totally accomodate you if you want to go full apeshit and kill your target by causing a traffic pileup and then going full-auto on the tangle of cars, civilians getting causally wasted like you're playing Ronin
Or if you want to follow the guy and thump the Christ out of him with your baton in a nice quiet parking garage or something
yeah people pointing to resi 4 or doom as examples of ultraviolence being present in games from the start, i don't feel they are understanding the difference between the stuff in tomb raider and their own examples
the stuff you see in last of us or tomb raider seems to be more focusing on the pain they are feeling, rather than the silly sprays of gore the latest graphics can render, so you see lara helplessly dangling by her impaled throat, trying to claw at her wound, or executing a guy begging for mercy through sobs of pain with a shotgun in last of us. it's really harrowing, but no more gory than getting your head lopped off in skyrim or whatever. it's really brutal, unnecessary, and unpleasant. and if it's "supposed to evoke those feelings", that's just exploitation cinema or torture porn stuff, who needs that?
again somebody in this thread brought up metal gear rising, where you can dice people to pieces, which is more part of the gameplay (you can get your health back from ripping their cybernetics out as well as instantly killing them) and showing off cool technology than making you see how much pain you are causing them (of course you can also chop off the arms and legs of enemies and watch them feebly limp around which is a bit mean spirited). there's a difference between that and watching lara impaled on a piece of glass, even though one is much worse an injury than the other.
it's like a lot of game devs have played the latest mortal combat where you can see real time x-ray scans of exactly the medical problems you are causing these people.
Hell, I enjoy a good manshoot sometimes, I'd just like some more varied alternatives. See also: Watch Dogs. It looks great, but man was I disappointed when he pulled out a gun and started shooting in that first video.
I'm hoping that the game can totally accomodate you if you want to go full apeshit and kill your target by causing a traffic pileup and then going full-auto on the tangle of cars, civilians getting causally wasted like you're playing Ronin
Or if you want to follow the guy and thump the Christ out of him with your baton in a nice quiet parking garage or something
thumpin' that ex with the baton was awesome. having to run from the police, not as much
Really? Turok was the "worst" game two generations ago. The most graphic thing it depicted was heads exploding. Now days they're trying to be imaginative and create the most elaborate death sequences in a frenzied race to out do each other.
Doom, Mortal Kombat, Soldier of fortune, Manhunt... these games would like a word with you.
yeah people pointing to resi 4 or doom as examples of ultraviolence being present in games from the start, i don't feel they are understanding the difference between the stuff in tomb raider and their own examples
the stuff you see in last of us or tomb raider seems to be more focusing on the pain they are feeling, rather than the silly sprays of gore the latest graphics can render, so you see lara helplessly dangling by her impaled throat, trying to claw at her wound, or executing a guy begging for mercy through sobs of pain with a shotgun in last of us. it's really harrowing, but no more gory than getting your head lopped off in skyrim or whatever. it's really brutal, unnecessary, and unpleasant. and if it's "supposed to evoke those feelings", that's just exploitation cinema or torture porn stuff, who needs that?
again somebody in this thread brought up metal gear rising, where you can dice people to pieces, which is more part of the gameplay (you can get your health back from ripping their cybernetics out as well as instantly killing them) and showing off cool technology than making you see how much pain you are causing them (of course you can also chop off the arms and legs of enemies and watch them feebly limp around which is a bit mean spirited). there's a difference between that and watching lara impaled on a piece of glass, even though one is much worse an injury than the other.
it's like a lot of game devs have played the latest mortal combat where you can see real time x-ray scans of exactly the medical problems you are causing these people.
and I think you're arbitrarily selecting things to be offended by.
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Vargas PrimeKing of NothingJust a ShowRegistered Userregular
There's nothing arbitrary about it.
If there wasn't a difference in the way certain people reacted to the actual depiction of violence, then the original Metroid or Super Mario games would be considered just as violent as the games being discussed here.
It may not phase you, but the purposefully-graphic scenes of Lara dying or being severely injured in some way are designed to provoke a reaction. The plain fact is that it's going to turn some people off.
I don't think there's any objective "good" or "bad" to it, but it's definitely an intentionally shocking presentation.
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
okay so lets say the Saw franchise is what we don't want the new tomb raider game to be
what is an example of a piece of media that does violence like that "right"?
where its horrible and painful to watch because dying violently is in fact horrible and not because it wants to laugh and call you a pussy when you blanch
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
Anything by Cormac McCarthy
Do not have a cow, mortal.
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
okay so lets say the Saw franchise is what we don't want the new tomb raider game to be
what is an example of a piece of media that does violence like that "right"?
where its horrible and painful to watch because dying violently is in fact horrible and not because it wants to laugh and call you a pussy when you blanch
Is it necessary to single out anything for doing it "right" or "wrong?" I mean, I understand both sides of the discussion, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with people finding the Tomb Raider stuff too much for them to handle. Personally, while some of the stuff I've seen seems extreme, and completely without context to provide a reason for that level of violence, I'm not particularly bothered by it. I'd like to know if there's a reason behind the design decisions there, and if there isn't, I'd be kind of disappointed, but I'm not going to scream about it.
A scene that always comes to mind that makes me uncomfortable is towards the end of Saving Private Ryan, when the German soldier brawls with Mellish, and eventually gains the upper hand, and slowly forces his knife into Mellish's belly as he struggles to both stop the knife and to plead with the German for his life. It's spectacularly NOT graphic, I'm not sure there's even any blood, but it's all in the acting, and the slow, deliberate action of the stabbing. That's always been an example to me of how it's possible to do serious, possibly uncomfortable violence without being gross or silly. And it fits in the context of the scene/movie.
okay so lets say the Saw franchise is what we don't want the new tomb raider game to be
what is an example of a piece of media that does violence like that "right"?
where its horrible and painful to watch because dying violently is in fact horrible and not because it wants to laugh and call you a pussy when you blanch
Is it necessary to single out anything for doing it "right" or "wrong?" I mean, I understand both sides of the discussion, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with people finding the Tomb Raider stuff too much for them to handle. Personally, while some of the stuff I've seen seems extreme, and completely without context to provide a reason for that level of violence, I'm not particularly bothered by it. I'd like to know if there's a reason behind the design decisions there, and if there isn't, I'd be kind of disappointed, but I'm not going to scream about it.
A scene that always comes to mind that makes me uncomfortable is towards the end of Saving Private Ryan, when the German soldier brawls with Mellish, and eventually gains the upper hand, and slowly forces his knife into Mellish's belly as he struggles to both stop the knife and to plead with the German for his life. It's spectacularly NOT graphic, I'm not sure there's even any blood, but it's all in the acting, and the slow, deliberate action of the stabbing. That's always been an example to me of how it's possible to do serious, possibly uncomfortable violence without being gross or silly. And it fits in the context of the scene/movie.
Goddamn. That scene you mentioned is one of the reasons I can't watch Saving Private Ryan anymore. It was too real for me.
Xbox Live: Jefe414
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
okay so lets say the Saw franchise is what we don't want the new tomb raider game to be
what is an example of a piece of media that does violence like that "right"?
where its horrible and painful to watch because dying violently is in fact horrible and not because it wants to laugh and call you a pussy when you blanch
Is it necessary to single out anything for doing it "right" or "wrong?"
Speaking only to this question, I say the answer is yes
If your goal is effect your audience in a certain way, then it makes sense to look at and take cues from works of other people that have had that desired effect
Not only that, but it is important to understand what things that got it "wrong" actually did so you can avoid doing those things
Also in a discussion about what is or isn't exploitative/torture porn it is useful to know what standards people are using when assigning a value based label to a piece of media. Saw is popularly agreed to be basically torture porn and so it makes a good base for what people are hoping not to see/feel/experience with the new tomb raider game
I also don't think Saw is an appropriate analogy because those movies (which I don't like) are structured entirely around those death scenes. Everything else is just an excuse to get to the next one.
Even having not played it yet, I think it's a safe assumption to say that the game is not designed as a showcase for its fail state animations. It's still possible that they were an unfortunate choice that don't fit in with the aesthetic of the game as intended, but even if that's the case it's not a deal breaker for me.
And it's fine if it is for either people, but there is a clear and distinct difference for me between saying "this level of violence is not for me regardless of context" and "I am definitively judging the intent of these context free animations"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Vargas PrimeKing of NothingJust a ShowRegistered Userregular
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
okay so lets say the Saw franchise is what we don't want the new tomb raider game to be
what is an example of a piece of media that does violence like that "right"?
where its horrible and painful to watch because dying violently is in fact horrible and not because it wants to laugh and call you a pussy when you blanch
Is it necessary to single out anything for doing it "right" or "wrong?"
Speaking only to this question, I say the answer is yes
If your goal is effect your audience in a certain way, then it makes sense to look at and take cues from works of other people that have had that desired effect
Not only that, but it is important to understand what things that got it "wrong" actually did so you can avoid doing those things
Also in a discussion about what is or isn't exploitative/torture porn it is useful to know what standards people are using when assigning a value based label to a piece of media. Saw is popularly agreed to be basically torture porn and so it makes a good base for what people are hoping not to see/feel/experience with the new tomb raider game
That's fair. Like I said, I hope there's some kind of context for the way they're treating Lara like an abused voodoo doll. If it's being done for the shock, without any kind of message or theme, then yes, I think they've done it "wrong".
It would not completely invalidate the game as a whole for me, but I could see how it would for others.
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
Vargas that is well put and sums up a lot of my concerns with what we've seen of the new Tomb Raider so far better than I'd been able to find words for :^:
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
I'd argue that every single bit of marketing I've seen for this game has set the tone as "desperate survival struggle". At no point did we get a montage of Lara cracking jokes while she climbs things, and i think expecting the same level of violence as Uncharted is disengenous because the tones they have set for the two games are radically different.
I absolutely expected this kind of thing because the marketing and preview images have never led me to believe the game would be anything but fairly brutal. I think your argument about sci-fi/horror holds here, in that your expectations should color what is acceptable, but if you've been following the marketing for this you should have expected it.
Also why does the setting matter? That bit confuses me. Especially in Dead Space 2, just because it's in space, he's still a guy with a face who feels pain, why does being in the future make that ok?
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Satans..... hints.....
I'd rather have a game where Lara isn't a killing machine at all, but I'm sure that's just me.
a game that thinks you're not buying it because it's not dark or edgy enough, not because it isn't good enough
Lara Croft: Museum Curator
there are options for action & tension that don't involve mass murder!
I do find it rather interesting what drove a lot of people to buy it on steam was the multiplayer area even though I have no idea what it will be about
mass murder? there's only like, three protagonists in Tomb Raider
well the car crash didn't quite do it. what about the second video?
the second video was neat!
it looks like there may be enough options that it doesn't need to be yet another open world shooter
but I'd still love to see more action games designed around non-combat mechanics, or minimal combat.
Mirror's Edge was so close.
This game does look like it could be really fun, and if it's more Far Cry than Uncharted then even better
the "life or death quick time events!" thing has me concerned though
and that throat impaling death gif just fucking no thank you
so I'm undecided at this point.
I'm hoping that the game can totally accomodate you if you want to go full apeshit and kill your target by causing a traffic pileup and then going full-auto on the tangle of cars, civilians getting causally wasted like you're playing Ronin
Or if you want to follow the guy and thump the Christ out of him with your baton in a nice quiet parking garage or something
the stuff you see in last of us or tomb raider seems to be more focusing on the pain they are feeling, rather than the silly sprays of gore the latest graphics can render, so you see lara helplessly dangling by her impaled throat, trying to claw at her wound, or executing a guy begging for mercy through sobs of pain with a shotgun in last of us. it's really harrowing, but no more gory than getting your head lopped off in skyrim or whatever. it's really brutal, unnecessary, and unpleasant. and if it's "supposed to evoke those feelings", that's just exploitation cinema or torture porn stuff, who needs that?
again somebody in this thread brought up metal gear rising, where you can dice people to pieces, which is more part of the gameplay (you can get your health back from ripping their cybernetics out as well as instantly killing them) and showing off cool technology than making you see how much pain you are causing them (of course you can also chop off the arms and legs of enemies and watch them feebly limp around which is a bit mean spirited). there's a difference between that and watching lara impaled on a piece of glass, even though one is much worse an injury than the other.
it's like a lot of game devs have played the latest mortal combat where you can see real time x-ray scans of exactly the medical problems you are causing these people.
thumpin' that ex with the baton was awesome. having to run from the police, not as much
Doom, Mortal Kombat, Soldier of fortune, Manhunt... these games would like a word with you.
and I think you're arbitrarily selecting things to be offended by.
If there wasn't a difference in the way certain people reacted to the actual depiction of violence, then the original Metroid or Super Mario games would be considered just as violent as the games being discussed here.
It may not phase you, but the purposefully-graphic scenes of Lara dying or being severely injured in some way are designed to provoke a reaction. The plain fact is that it's going to turn some people off.
I don't think there's any objective "good" or "bad" to it, but it's definitely an intentionally shocking presentation.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
Look you can't just make up fake games for your arguments
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
what is an example of a piece of media that does violence like that "right"?
where its horrible and painful to watch because dying violently is in fact horrible and not because it wants to laugh and call you a pussy when you blanch
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Of course I am a person who laughed at the saltlick part in The Walking Dead so...
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
Play Dead Space
Is it necessary to single out anything for doing it "right" or "wrong?" I mean, I understand both sides of the discussion, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with people finding the Tomb Raider stuff too much for them to handle. Personally, while some of the stuff I've seen seems extreme, and completely without context to provide a reason for that level of violence, I'm not particularly bothered by it. I'd like to know if there's a reason behind the design decisions there, and if there isn't, I'd be kind of disappointed, but I'm not going to scream about it.
A scene that always comes to mind that makes me uncomfortable is towards the end of Saving Private Ryan, when the German soldier brawls with Mellish, and eventually gains the upper hand, and slowly forces his knife into Mellish's belly as he struggles to both stop the knife and to plead with the German for his life. It's spectacularly NOT graphic, I'm not sure there's even any blood, but it's all in the acting, and the slow, deliberate action of the stabbing. That's always been an example to me of how it's possible to do serious, possibly uncomfortable violence without being gross or silly. And it fits in the context of the scene/movie.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
Goddamn. That scene you mentioned is one of the reasons I can't watch Saving Private Ryan anymore. It was too real for me.
I can see this ending poorly but I'll give it a shot
Speaking only to this question, I say the answer is yes
If your goal is effect your audience in a certain way, then it makes sense to look at and take cues from works of other people that have had that desired effect
Not only that, but it is important to understand what things that got it "wrong" actually did so you can avoid doing those things
Also in a discussion about what is or isn't exploitative/torture porn it is useful to know what standards people are using when assigning a value based label to a piece of media. Saw is popularly agreed to be basically torture porn and so it makes a good base for what people are hoping not to see/feel/experience with the new tomb raider game
Even having not played it yet, I think it's a safe assumption to say that the game is not designed as a showcase for its fail state animations. It's still possible that they were an unfortunate choice that don't fit in with the aesthetic of the game as intended, but even if that's the case it's not a deal breaker for me.
And it's fine if it is for either people, but there is a clear and distinct difference for me between saying "this level of violence is not for me regardless of context" and "I am definitively judging the intent of these context free animations"
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
That's fair. Like I said, I hope there's some kind of context for the way they're treating Lara like an abused voodoo doll. If it's being done for the shock, without any kind of message or theme, then yes, I think they've done it "wrong".
It would not completely invalidate the game as a whole for me, but I could see how it would for others.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
I'd argue that every single bit of marketing I've seen for this game has set the tone as "desperate survival struggle". At no point did we get a montage of Lara cracking jokes while she climbs things, and i think expecting the same level of violence as Uncharted is disengenous because the tones they have set for the two games are radically different.
I absolutely expected this kind of thing because the marketing and preview images have never led me to believe the game would be anything but fairly brutal. I think your argument about sci-fi/horror holds here, in that your expectations should color what is acceptable, but if you've been following the marketing for this you should have expected it.
Also why does the setting matter? That bit confuses me. Especially in Dead Space 2, just because it's in space, he's still a guy with a face who feels pain, why does being in the future make that ok?
Plus, the eye poke machine.