-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
Well, going by what I've read and heard women talk about when discussing writing female characters in games, and more generally going by what I've heard female acquaintances talk about when discussing writing female characters in other media, "female characters written by women get altered by male producers/directors to be more in line with men's expectations of what women are like" is not exactly uncommon. Maybe Tomb Raider 2K13 is an exception and all the "Lara gets buffeted around willy-nilly" and "Lara is grabbed/pinned down by dudes" scenes are taken directly from the script, and weren't added by dudes who wanted to underline Lara's femaleness vulnerability. I wouldn't doubt that Cutscene Lara, who is deeply affected by taking a human life for the first time, was taken mostly from the script, and Gameplay Lara, who shoots and kills a half-dozen more dudes within ten minutes of that happening, wasn't.
So without playing the game, your problems with the game are based entirely on things outside of it. Got it.
He's interpreting what information we've seen of the game, seeing as how none of us have played it yet.
We're discussing our impressions of the game and how that's influencing our reaction to the media/marketing surrounding the game and our decisions to purchase or not purchase it.
Reducing his part of the discussion doesn't help anything, you're just creating antagonism where people are just trying to discuss. What's being presented to us is usually all we have to discuss until the game is actually in our hands, so what's the harm in talking about it?
Except he's not interpreting whats in the game, or even what has been shown in previews or marketing, he is taking outside interviews that aren't even ABOUT this game and applying them to his view of Tomb Raider. I don't think that's constructive, and the other part of that is pure speculation that men involved in the production altered a women's script without her permission.
That's a fairly serious accusation to make with no proof. I'm not trying to shut down discussion, but rampant speculation and rumormongering is not worth exploring.
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
Well, going by what I've read and heard women talk about when discussing writing female characters in games, and more generally going by what I've heard female acquaintances talk about when discussing writing female characters in other media, "female characters written by women get altered by male producers/directors to be more in line with men's expectations of what women are like" is not exactly uncommon. Maybe Tomb Raider 2K13 is an exception and all the "Lara gets buffeted around willy-nilly" and "Lara is grabbed/pinned down by dudes" scenes are taken directly from the script, and weren't added by dudes who wanted to underline Lara's femaleness vulnerability. I wouldn't doubt that Cutscene Lara, who is deeply affected by taking a human life for the first time, was taken mostly from the script, and Gameplay Lara, who shoots and kills a half-dozen more dudes within ten minutes of that happening, wasn't.
So without playing the game, your problems with the game are based entirely on things outside of it. Got it.
The developers' comments established a pretty firm context of "Lara is meant to provoke feelings of protectiveness in the player, because she's a girl". You don't exactly have to reach to find a gendered element to the game's handling of violence as it relates to Lara.
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
Well, going by what I've read and heard women talk about when discussing writing female characters in games, and more generally going by what I've heard female acquaintances talk about when discussing writing female characters in other media, "female characters written by women get altered by male producers/directors to be more in line with men's expectations of what women are like" is not exactly uncommon. Maybe Tomb Raider 2K13 is an exception and all the "Lara gets buffeted around willy-nilly" and "Lara is grabbed/pinned down by dudes" scenes are taken directly from the script, and weren't added by dudes who wanted to underline Lara's femaleness vulnerability. I wouldn't doubt that Cutscene Lara, who is deeply affected by taking a human life for the first time, was taken mostly from the script, and Gameplay Lara, who shoots and kills a half-dozen more dudes within ten minutes of that happening, wasn't.
So without playing the game, your problems with the game are based entirely on things outside of it. Got it.
The developers' comments established a pretty firm context of "Lara is meant to provoke feelings of protectiveness in the player, because she's a girl". You don't exactly have to reach to find a gendered element to the game's handling of violence as it relates to Lara.
every review of the game has said he had no idea what he was talking about.
edit: because that wasn't a developer or game mechanics person who was talking. It was the art director or something
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Vargas PrimeKing of NothingJust a ShowRegistered Userregular
Speaking of all this, there's a new trailer up on Giant Bomb that I hadn't seen yet
Further emphasizing the "personal" impact that the game is shooting for. What they show is certainly more interesting to me than the cavalcade of disaster that seems to be thrown at Lara in the beginning of the game, and hearing Brad discuss it briefly on this week's Bombcast makes it sound like there is a clear and distinct point where the game kind of "clicks" into something more palatable.
I'm intrigued. I was never going to be a day-one-purchaser, but I'm at least willing to take my impressions of this game's marketing since E3 in stride and hope that there's a tale to be told. They really do seem to be doing their damnedest to distance themselves from the bad taste that was circulating last year.
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
Well, going by what I've read and heard women talk about when discussing writing female characters in games, and more generally going by what I've heard female acquaintances talk about when discussing writing female characters in other media, "female characters written by women get altered by male producers/directors to be more in line with men's expectations of what women are like" is not exactly uncommon. Maybe Tomb Raider 2K13 is an exception and all the "Lara gets buffeted around willy-nilly" and "Lara is grabbed/pinned down by dudes" scenes are taken directly from the script, and weren't added by dudes who wanted to underline Lara's femaleness vulnerability. I wouldn't doubt that Cutscene Lara, who is deeply affected by taking a human life for the first time, was taken mostly from the script, and Gameplay Lara, who shoots and kills a half-dozen more dudes within ten minutes of that happening, wasn't.
So without playing the game, your problems with the game are based entirely on things outside of it. Got it.
He's interpreting what information we've seen of the game, seeing as how none of us have played it yet.
We're discussing our impressions of the game and how that's influencing our reaction to the media/marketing surrounding the game and our decisions to purchase or not purchase it.
Reducing his part of the discussion doesn't help anything, you're just creating antagonism where people are just trying to discuss. What's being presented to us is usually all we have to discuss until the game is actually in our hands, so what's the harm in talking about it?
Except he's not interpreting whats in the game, or even what has been shown in previews or marketing, he is taking outside interviews that aren't even ABOUT this game and applying them to his view of Tomb Raider. I don't think that's constructive, and the other part of that is pure speculation that men involved in the production altered a women's script without her permission.
That's a fairly serious accusation to make with no proof. I'm not trying to shut down discussion, but rampant speculation and rumormongering is not worth exploring.
To be fair, I don't think it's completely out of left field to take the medium's track record as a whole into account when speculating on a game like this. It's not like there's a long, established history of well-written or even well-represented female characters in games.
I'm not going to put words in anyone's mouth, but it sounded more like he was voicing an opinion, not stating accusations as fact.
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
Well, going by what I've read and heard women talk about when discussing writing female characters in games, and more generally going by what I've heard female acquaintances talk about when discussing writing female characters in other media, "female characters written by women get altered by male producers/directors to be more in line with men's expectations of what women are like" is not exactly uncommon. Maybe Tomb Raider 2K13 is an exception and all the "Lara gets buffeted around willy-nilly" and "Lara is grabbed/pinned down by dudes" scenes are taken directly from the script, and weren't added by dudes who wanted to underline Lara's femaleness vulnerability. I wouldn't doubt that Cutscene Lara, who is deeply affected by taking a human life for the first time, was taken mostly from the script, and Gameplay Lara, who shoots and kills a half-dozen more dudes within ten minutes of that happening, wasn't.
So without playing the game, your problems with the game are based entirely on things outside of it. Got it.
The developers' comments established a pretty firm context of "Lara is meant to provoke feelings of protectiveness in the player, because she's a girl". You don't exactly have to reach to find a gendered element to the game's handling of violence as it relates to Lara.
Ron Rosenberg is an executive producer, not a designer, writer, or developer. Crystal Dynamics immediately distanced themselves from that comment and all evidence points to that quote being bullshit (multiple reviewers who have played the game specifically referenced this and said it has no bearing on the gameplay or tone), and also saying that one mans comment is the intent of the entire design team is crazy.
All I'm getting from you is that you have firmly made up your mind that the people who made this game are sadomasochistic mysoginists based on one quote and your own misinterpretation of preview footage ('lovingly rendered crippling injuries', 'constantly rendered helpless') that are so far from what is in the footage that its pretty obvious you desperately wanted them to be there so you could rail against them.
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
Well, going by what I've read and heard women talk about when discussing writing female characters in games, and more generally going by what I've heard female acquaintances talk about when discussing writing female characters in other media, "female characters written by women get altered by male producers/directors to be more in line with men's expectations of what women are like" is not exactly uncommon. Maybe Tomb Raider 2K13 is an exception and all the "Lara gets buffeted around willy-nilly" and "Lara is grabbed/pinned down by dudes" scenes are taken directly from the script, and weren't added by dudes who wanted to underline Lara's femaleness vulnerability. I wouldn't doubt that Cutscene Lara, who is deeply affected by taking a human life for the first time, was taken mostly from the script, and Gameplay Lara, who shoots and kills a half-dozen more dudes within ten minutes of that happening, wasn't.
So without playing the game, your problems with the game are based entirely on things outside of it. Got it.
The developers' comments established a pretty firm context of "Lara is meant to provoke feelings of protectiveness in the player, because she's a girl". You don't exactly have to reach to find a gendered element to the game's handling of violence as it relates to Lara.
I can't remember who that guy was, but it was my understanding that he was more of an executive dude, I know the actual lead designer of the game among many others have subsequently stressed quite the opposite.
It's my understanding that the game pretty quickly establishes Lara as the capable leader and protector of the shipwrecked survivors.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Vargas PrimeKing of NothingJust a ShowRegistered Userregular
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
I mean, yeah, he's talking about his impressions from what he's seen of the game, and in context of the medium as a whole, but... if you can point to one of the MANY games featuring a male protagonist that treats violence inflicted upon him, and violence inflicted BY him on others in that same way, I'm interested. I don't really see many games that do it, let alone games that are specifically marketed with that tact front and center.
Far cry 3 just came out, and while it fails at actually portraying this through mechanics (for the same reason any action game that features this fails, in that it isn't fun to be hindered by mechanics), the opening dialogue of the game and opening scene spends just as much time as Brad described in Tomb Raider having the main character break down over having to be violent. He has dialogue that talks about being disgusted, spends the tutorial freaking out and almost crying, and even takes time during later game instances commenting on his disgust.
Having not played FC3, I'll take your word for it. My impressions from reading what people had to say about it here and elsewhere was that any attempt at characterization in that game fell absolutely flat, with the exception of Vaas, and that any pretense that the player character was a "real dude" was shunted immediately following the intro/kidnapping sequence.
Honestly, any further discussion about that game has been completely clouded for me following the writer who did all those interviews claiming that it was a great story and players just didn't "get it."
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
The limited health and healing in Dead Space also gives a big incentive for you to play conservatively and avoid getting hit at all. Plus Isaac is wearing armor instead of a tank top. Although, I don't think Isaac even gets injured that much in any of the story related cutscenes. You really only see horrific things happen to him in the scenes where he gets killed and you have to reload.
. and from what i've seen of actual gameplay footage, these super-visceral injuries that Lara is taking don't seem to be stopping her from platforming all over the place; not thirty seconds after taking a spike of jagged metal through her side, she's clambering over cliffs and crates with as much ease as ever. kind of weird how the game is making a point of inflicting lovingly-rendered crippling injuries solely on our sexy barely-legal protagonist in cutscenes when these injuries have no bearing on the gameplay or narrative. weird how the game with the female protagonist makes a point of repeatedly, torturously victimizing her even as it builds her up to this awesome ass-kicking tomb raider. the constant scenes of her getting impaled and concussed definitely don't undermine that aspect of her character arc, no sir.
bringing this up again to point out that this exact thing happens over and over in the Uncharted games, the second game beginning with the character gut shot and then clambering all over a collapsing train.
The Uncharted games being specifically what Tomb Raider is overwhelmingly drawing from.
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
I mean, yeah, he's talking about his impressions from what he's seen of the game, and in context of the medium as a whole, but... if you can point to one of the MANY games featuring a male protagonist that treats violence inflicted upon him, and violence inflicted BY him on others in that same way, I'm interested. I don't really see many games that do it, let alone games that are specifically marketed with that tact front and center.
Far cry 3 just came out, and while it fails at actually portraying this through mechanics (for the same reason any action game that features this fails, in that it isn't fun to be hindered by mechanics), the opening dialogue of the game and opening scene spends just as much time as Brad described in Tomb Raider having the main character break down over having to be violent. He has dialogue that talks about being disgusted, spends the tutorial freaking out and almost crying, and even takes time during later game instances commenting on his disgust.
Having not played FC3, I'll take your word for it. My impressions from reading what people had to say about it here and elsewhere was that any attempt at characterization in that game fell absolutely flat, with the exception of Vaas, and that any pretense that the player character was a "real dude" was shunted immediately following the intro/kidnapping sequence.
Honestly, any further discussion about that game has been completely clouded for me following the writer who did all those interviews claiming that it was a great story and players just didn't "get it."
yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm not talking about it being successful or not, the question was asked "would a male protagonist be portrayed as being affected by having to do violence in a AAA game like Tomb Raider"
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
The limited health and healing in Dead Space also gives a big incentive for you to play conservatively and avoid getting hit at all. Plus Isaac is wearing armor instead of a tank top. Although, I don't think Isaac even gets injured that much in any of the story related cutscenes. You really only see horrific things happen to him in the scenes where he gets killed and you have to reload.
As has already been discussed, there is a point in Dead Space 2 where Isaac is essentially forced to lobotomize himself by sticking a giant needle through his eye. That's not a fail state, that is a story sequence.
this discussion on the Bombcast and Eurogamer review about how Lara goes from freaking out about having murdered her first dude to having to drop a room full of guys in about 90 seconds really makes me think about this article I always intended to write for Medium Difficulty
the idea I had was for video game storytelling to match the standard three act structure but do it through the mechanics as well as the story
i.e. when you get to the 'lowest point' around the tail end of act two you should have all your abilities stripped away and be unable to do much at all until you pick up some sort of new gadget or uncover a new strategy that would represent the beginning of act 3
kind of wish this game had gone a route similar to that, rather than just flicking the Badass switch
this discussion on the Bombcast and Eurogamer review about how Lara goes from freaking out about having murdered her first dude to having to drop a room full of guys in about 90 seconds really makes me think about this article I always intended to write for Medium Difficulty
the idea I had was for video game storytelling to match the standard three act structure but do it through the mechanics as well as the story
i.e. when you get to the 'lowest point' around the tail end of act two you should have all your abilities stripped away and be unable to do much at all until you pick up some sort of new gadget or uncover a new strategy that would represent the beginning of act 3
kind of wish this game had gone a route similar to that, rather than just flicking the Badass switch
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Muse Among MenSuburban Bunny Princess?Its time for a new shtick Registered Userregular
I'll reserve judgement towards the violence until I play it or until I hear more from other people who have played it. It seems to me that the violence was deemed 'necessary' because videogames have become so violent at this point that gamers have become enured, and it would take an outrageous death scene to evoke a response at all. The last time I was bothered by videogame violence was the first time I played RE4, to be perfectly honest. Since then I have done some terrible things to enemies in games and have had some gruesome death scenes on my part and they don't bother me really, at worst I will laugh. Like those silly limbs you can cut off of enemies in Gears of War. That is way more funny than sad or gruesome. Or in Dead Space. Some of what I've seen looks incredibly campy, and Crystal Dynamic's previous Tomb Raider games were in fact, outrageously campy. It seems like some of the people working on the game wanted to interject those elements into the game and convinced their other coworkers that it would be okay.
Campy would have worked out too, I wonder what people would be saying if those same death scenes existed in a Tomb Raider game that decided to embrace a camp aesthetic. It worked out pretty well in Bayonetta, and some of those death scenes were beyond ridiculous.
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
The limited health and healing in Dead Space also gives a big incentive for you to play conservatively and avoid getting hit at all. Plus Isaac is wearing armor instead of a tank top. Although, I don't think Isaac even gets injured that much in any of the story related cutscenes. You really only see horrific things happen to him in the scenes where he gets killed and you have to reload.
As has already been discussed, there is a point in Dead Space 2 where Isaac is essentially forced to lobotomize himself by sticking a giant needle through his eye. That's not a fail state, that is a story sequence.
That scene wasn't very explicit or gruesome. Plus he's not using some dirty needled he grabbed off the floor, he's using a machine designed for brain surgery.
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
The limited health and healing in Dead Space also gives a big incentive for you to play conservatively and avoid getting hit at all. Plus Isaac is wearing armor instead of a tank top. Although, I don't think Isaac even gets injured that much in any of the story related cutscenes. You really only see horrific things happen to him in the scenes where he gets killed and you have to reload.
As has already been discussed, there is a point in Dead Space 2 where Isaac is essentially forced to lobotomize himself by sticking a giant needle through his eye. That's not a fail state, that is a story sequence.
That scene wasn't very explicit or gruesome. Plus he's not using some dirty needled he grabbed off the floor, he's using a machine designed for brain surgery.
Yeah, I haven't been able to beat Dead Space 1 because I am a massive baby but I saw that clip and holy shit if you think that isn't gruesome you're bonkers.
Just turned on my PS2 for the first time in forever and put TR I on just to see how it looks today. Wow, graphics really have come a long ass way. And for the time, Lara could die in some pretty bad ways. That bone cracking sound when she feel for too long was pretty bad, along with burning to death or getting eaten by something. And the ever popular being turned into gold.
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World as Mytha breezy way to annoy serious peopleRegistered Userregular
Just turned on my PS2 for the first time in forever and put TR I on just to see how it looks today. Wow, graphics really have come a long ass way. And for the time, Lara could die in some pretty bad ways. That bone cracking sound when she feel for too long was pretty bad, along with burning to death or getting eaten by something. And the ever popular being turned into gold.
lara croft has had a long-standing tradition of dying horribly - her drowning animation used to give me nightmares as a kid
they've raised the bar for realism, which is why it feels worse now, but it also seems true to the series
On the plus side, with the tone of this new game I doubt there will be an unlockable skimpy-ass bikini available. So, that's a step in the right direction.
I guess...
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Vargas PrimeKing of NothingJust a ShowRegistered Userregular
Just turned on my PS2 for the first time in forever and put TR I on just to see how it looks today. Wow, graphics really have come a long ass way. And for the time, Lara could die in some pretty bad ways. That bone cracking sound when she feel for too long was pretty bad, along with burning to death or getting eaten by something. And the ever popular being turned into gold.
Yeah, this speaks more to my original point when I jumped in here, that the way that these things are depicted makes all the difference to some people. The realism increases both your attachment to the character as an actual person and your reaction when terrible things happen to them.
Obviously, it's not a thing for some people. But that's definitely part of what has turned people off to the game.
it's different when the violence isn't cartoonishly over the top
some of the stuff I've seen from Tomb Raider (that gif from earlier in the thread for example) makes me uncomfortable more than any other game I can think of. Part of that is they're lingering on the effects of the violence more than most games do. It's not what's being done to Lara, it's the cries of pain, the limping and similar animations that make it look more like real injuries rather than something the hero shrugs off with little more than a scratch or a "wounded" texture. It's the camera lingering on her panicked desperate thrashing as she dies gruesomely.
The Raid: Redemption did this as well. I've seen plenty of hyperviolent martial arts movies, but this one spent a little more time showing the effect of the beatings/stabbings/door-splinter-impalings and it was enough to push me out of my comfort zone. I appreciated this with The Raid, and I might with Tomb Raider, depending on how they handle it. It's something that could be done to make a point, and be better for it, or it's something that could be done purely for exploitative shock value and I haven't seen enough to convince me that it's one or the other yet.
Serious question, have you played the Dead Space games? They have a similar level of showing the character struggling or screaming in pain before death.
I haven't!
I think I got the first one in a Steam sale, but never got around to trying it. Sounds like I might not enjoy them so much as I am a massive baby at times.
Fair enough. I'm wondering if someone who has seen both could explain why they feel it's different, or why this one deserves the outcry.
I've played Dead Space the first, and honestly, even though Isaac gets some horrific shit done to him when he dies, I feel like there's a disconnect there firstly because the game itself is akin to a sci-fi/horror movie. So from the jump, you are in the context of a game where horrible creatures and gore are expected. A requirement, even.
Then there's the fact that Isaac, for the most part, is a suit. He's a dude, yeah, but he's a faceless suit of armor with a voice filtered through a breathing mask for most of your time spent with him, and for my part, I think that matters in how people react, too.
Lara is a much more realistically-designed character in a more real setting (at least from what has been presented so far), and the shit happening to her is horrifically violent, but in a context that you're not necessarily expecting it or wanting it. I don't play Uncharted to see Drake's femur pop through his skin when he flubs a jump, or crack his skull open on a stone floor. It's an adventure game, which sets up a context for a lot of people that doesn't normally include that level of ultraviolence.
But again, that doesn't make it inherently wrong for them to do that. It also doesn't make it wrong for a segment of gamers to be turned off by it and choose to not play it.
The limited health and healing in Dead Space also gives a big incentive for you to play conservatively and avoid getting hit at all. Plus Isaac is wearing armor instead of a tank top. Although, I don't think Isaac even gets injured that much in any of the story related cutscenes. You really only see horrific things happen to him in the scenes where he gets killed and you have to reload.
As has already been discussed, there is a point in Dead Space 2 where Isaac is essentially forced to lobotomize himself by sticking a giant needle through his eye. That's not a fail state, that is a story sequence.
That scene wasn't very explicit or gruesome. Plus he's not using some dirty needled he grabbed off the floor, he's using a machine designed for brain surgery.
you either don't remember it or are crazy
It's gruesome if you fail but there's nothing explicit if you succeed. It's not like Isaac gets his eye popped out and runs around the rest of the game with an bulging eyeball. The needle goes in, stays there for a few seconds, it comes out and there's a bit of blood. It's certainly uncomfortable to watch but it is in no way gratuitous or gruesome. There's a big difference between someone using a machine designed for surgery and someone just pulling shrapnel out of their bodies.
On the plus side, with the tone of this new game I doubt there will be an unlockable skimpy-ass bikini available. So, that's a step in the right direction.
i read the eurogamer review of this. it was terrible.
"this game is unoriginal and its narrative tone is a failure. the gameplay is dumbed down and the focus is on peripheral distractions. eight out of ten."
i know the money has crossed hands but you can't trick me
Lara's persona is mostly sketched out through interactions with other characters, and she comes across as likeable and believable. Shrieking aside, the script does a good job of depicting a character who possesses real inner strength, while being plausibly unnerved by the constant prospect of violent death.
It's a shame the other characters don't get much screen time, and are therefore unable to move beyond archetypes like Feisty Black Chick, Nerdy White Dude, Hot Asian Babe and Dirty Foreign Rapist of Unspecified Baltic Origin. The plot does move along at a decent pace and the characters have conversations that are about more than just exposition. However, it feels like there are two conflicting forces at work here - a story that wants to be told, and a game that wants keep reminding everyone it's a game.
Combat remains the dominant component as the game progresses but thankfully, it improves in other areas. The tide of blood and gore subsides and Lara stops shrieking. There are some excellent exploration sections complete with satisfying routes, beautiful vistas and atmospheric tombs. The latter are mostly found by diverging from the main path, and solving the puzzles contained within them is voluntary.
This is a smart idea. Many of the puzzles are as tough as those in the old games, but the option to walk away means there's no risk of getting stuck and frustrated for six hours, like that time in Tomb Raider 3 with the key and the dead monkey. Also every other time in Tomb Raider 3.
There aren't many mandatory puzzles and they aren't too tricky. They involve a lot of ropes. For the first few hours of play, it feels like this core element of the series has been sidelined and dumbed down to a disappointing degree. But again, things look up as the game goes on. The puzzles crop up more regularly and get more challenging. It's just like old times as the game shuts up, calms down and gives Lara the breathing space to quietly work out the answers.
Yes, game series must be allowed to move on. Otherwise there would be no Mario 64, no Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, no Jambo Safari Wii. The problem with Tomb Raider is not that it's trying to do something new. The problem is it's trying to do what everyone else is doing.
It succeeds in that aim. The boxes can be ticked, several times over - collectables, upgrade systems, big fat guns, blood and gore, pretty graphics, set pieces, boss battles, cut-scenes where the characters' lip movements almost match what they are saying, multiplayer modes, art galleries, quick-time events, more collectables. All of these tricks are pulled off with competence and polish.
But they're just tricks, and they leave little room for the elements that set Tomb Raider apart to shine. Beneath the noise there is an engaging story clamouring to be heard, and there are moments of true beauty, serenity and pathos fighting for attention. The game does get better as it goes on, and despite the distractions the last few hours are a pleasure to play.At the centre of it all is a brilliant character, still iconic but more human and believable than she's ever been before.
So goodbye, old Lara. Your time is up. Hello, new Lara. If you can stop hacking people to death for five minutes, we'll get along fine.
"This is a good game that has definite cognitive dissonance between the narrative and the gameplay, and certain aspects of the game are attempting to combine several specialties into a broad experience, which does not succeed as much as the games it apes that only focus on one avenue. It's very pretty, engaging, and fun, but not perfect."
the tone of the review was whinging and critical. whoever played it didn't really have a wonderful time. i'm not saying it was actually paid off but the number at the end was a consolation for somebody
the tone of the review was whinging and critical. whoever played it didn't really have a wonderful time. i'm not saying it was actually paid off but the number at the end was a consolation for somebody
What
the dude straight up says it got a lot better as it went on and he really enjoyed the last few hours especially
I'm pretty sure the point of every review is to be critical of what it is you are actually reviewing.
The game doesn't break any new ground but it checks all the boxes sounds fine to me. Not every gaming experience I have needs to reinvent the wheel. If it plays well and looks pretty that's OK too.
edit: this is a critique of the review, not the game. if you are going to award a tomb raider game an eight out of ten and want your reader to come away with the idea that it's very much worth playing, you don't start out by saying "the old guard of video game characters are dead and deserve to stay buried."
bsjezz on
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
-violence against a female protagonist is done specifically because she is a woman.
the way the game treats Lara's relationship with violence, both on the giving and receiving ends of it, is kind of unique in games, and I don't doubt that it's because of her gender. Lara is constantly being tossed around or generally rendered helpless both by human antagonists and by the environment, and she's so personally affected by committing violence herself that she dry-heaves on killing for the first time and apologizes to an animal for shooting it. maybe a game with a male protagonist and a similar narrative thrust would still go to these lengths to make the violence more personal and more affecting, but I somehow doubt it.
I think that you feel this way says a lot more about your attitude towards women than the games. You don't offer any evidence here beyond that you "don't doubt it". That's your view coloring the action of the game, and condemning it because of what you yourself are bringing to the plot and action.
I mean, yeah, he's talking about his impressions from what he's seen of the game, and in context of the medium as a whole, but... if you can point to one of the MANY games featuring a male protagonist that treats violence inflicted upon him, and violence inflicted BY him on others in that same way, I'm interested. I don't really see many games that do it, let alone games that are specifically marketed with that tact front and center.
Far cry 3 just came out, and while it fails at actually portraying this through mechanics (for the same reason any action game that features this fails, in that it isn't fun to be hindered by mechanics), the opening dialogue of the game and opening scene spends just as much time as Brad described in Tomb Raider having the main character break down over having to be violent. He has dialogue that talks about being disgusted, spends the tutorial freaking out and almost crying, and even takes time during later game instances commenting on his disgust.
that part isn't true, that I remember
by about a third of the way through
he is having such vocal fun blowing up dudes with a grenade launcher that his girlfriend is seriously freaked out by it.
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PaperLuigi44My amazement is at maximum capacity.Registered Userregular
edit: this is a critique of the review, not the game. if you are going to award a tomb raider game an eight out of ten and want your reader to come away with the idea that it's very much worth playing, you don't start out by saying "the old guard of video game characters are dead and deserve to stay buried."
But they're talking about old Lara Croft, not new Lara Croft. They are different characters.
Posts
Except he's not interpreting whats in the game, or even what has been shown in previews or marketing, he is taking outside interviews that aren't even ABOUT this game and applying them to his view of Tomb Raider. I don't think that's constructive, and the other part of that is pure speculation that men involved in the production altered a women's script without her permission.
That's a fairly serious accusation to make with no proof. I'm not trying to shut down discussion, but rampant speculation and rumormongering is not worth exploring.
The developers' comments established a pretty firm context of "Lara is meant to provoke feelings of protectiveness in the player, because she's a girl". You don't exactly have to reach to find a gendered element to the game's handling of violence as it relates to Lara.
every review of the game has said he had no idea what he was talking about.
edit: because that wasn't a developer or game mechanics person who was talking. It was the art director or something
Further emphasizing the "personal" impact that the game is shooting for. What they show is certainly more interesting to me than the cavalcade of disaster that seems to be thrown at Lara in the beginning of the game, and hearing Brad discuss it briefly on this week's Bombcast makes it sound like there is a clear and distinct point where the game kind of "clicks" into something more palatable.
I'm intrigued. I was never going to be a day-one-purchaser, but I'm at least willing to take my impressions of this game's marketing since E3 in stride and hope that there's a tale to be told. They really do seem to be doing their damnedest to distance themselves from the bad taste that was circulating last year.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
To be fair, I don't think it's completely out of left field to take the medium's track record as a whole into account when speculating on a game like this. It's not like there's a long, established history of well-written or even well-represented female characters in games.
I'm not going to put words in anyone's mouth, but it sounded more like he was voicing an opinion, not stating accusations as fact.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
Ron Rosenberg is an executive producer, not a designer, writer, or developer. Crystal Dynamics immediately distanced themselves from that comment and all evidence points to that quote being bullshit (multiple reviewers who have played the game specifically referenced this and said it has no bearing on the gameplay or tone), and also saying that one mans comment is the intent of the entire design team is crazy.
All I'm getting from you is that you have firmly made up your mind that the people who made this game are sadomasochistic mysoginists based on one quote and your own misinterpretation of preview footage ('lovingly rendered crippling injuries', 'constantly rendered helpless') that are so far from what is in the footage that its pretty obvious you desperately wanted them to be there so you could rail against them.
I can't remember who that guy was, but it was my understanding that he was more of an executive dude, I know the actual lead designer of the game among many others have subsequently stressed quite the opposite.
It's my understanding that the game pretty quickly establishes Lara as the capable leader and protector of the shipwrecked survivors.
Having not played FC3, I'll take your word for it. My impressions from reading what people had to say about it here and elsewhere was that any attempt at characterization in that game fell absolutely flat, with the exception of Vaas, and that any pretense that the player character was a "real dude" was shunted immediately following the intro/kidnapping sequence.
Honestly, any further discussion about that game has been completely clouded for me following the writer who did all those interviews claiming that it was a great story and players just didn't "get it."
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
The limited health and healing in Dead Space also gives a big incentive for you to play conservatively and avoid getting hit at all. Plus Isaac is wearing armor instead of a tank top. Although, I don't think Isaac even gets injured that much in any of the story related cutscenes. You really only see horrific things happen to him in the scenes where he gets killed and you have to reload.
bringing this up again to point out that this exact thing happens over and over in the Uncharted games, the second game beginning with the character gut shot and then clambering all over a collapsing train.
The Uncharted games being specifically what Tomb Raider is overwhelmingly drawing from.
yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm not talking about it being successful or not, the question was asked "would a male protagonist be portrayed as being affected by having to do violence in a AAA game like Tomb Raider"
and the answer is "yes, last month"
As has already been discussed, there is a point in Dead Space 2 where Isaac is essentially forced to lobotomize himself by sticking a giant needle through his eye. That's not a fail state, that is a story sequence.
the idea I had was for video game storytelling to match the standard three act structure but do it through the mechanics as well as the story
i.e. when you get to the 'lowest point' around the tail end of act two you should have all your abilities stripped away and be unable to do much at all until you pick up some sort of new gadget or uncover a new strategy that would represent the beginning of act 3
kind of wish this game had gone a route similar to that, rather than just flicking the Badass switch
Metroid: Zero Mission
Campy would have worked out too, I wonder what people would be saying if those same death scenes existed in a Tomb Raider game that decided to embrace a camp aesthetic. It worked out pretty well in Bayonetta, and some of those death scenes were beyond ridiculous.
That scene wasn't very explicit or gruesome. Plus he's not using some dirty needled he grabbed off the floor, he's using a machine designed for brain surgery.
you either don't remember it or are crazy
lara croft has had a long-standing tradition of dying horribly - her drowning animation used to give me nightmares as a kid
they've raised the bar for realism, which is why it feels worse now, but it also seems true to the series
holy god crap no
I guess...
Yeah, this speaks more to my original point when I jumped in here, that the way that these things are depicted makes all the difference to some people. The realism increases both your attachment to the character as an actual person and your reaction when terrible things happen to them.
Obviously, it's not a thing for some people. But that's definitely part of what has turned people off to the game.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
It's gruesome if you fail but there's nothing explicit if you succeed. It's not like Isaac gets his eye popped out and runs around the rest of the game with an bulging eyeball. The needle goes in, stays there for a few seconds, it comes out and there's a bit of blood. It's certainly uncomfortable to watch but it is in no way gratuitous or gruesome. There's a big difference between someone using a machine designed for surgery and someone just pulling shrapnel out of their bodies.
Pre-order canceled
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
"this game is unoriginal and its narrative tone is a failure. the gameplay is dumbed down and the focus is on peripheral distractions. eight out of ten."
i know the money has crossed hands but you can't trick me
"This is a good game that has definite cognitive dissonance between the narrative and the gameplay, and certain aspects of the game are attempting to combine several specialties into a broad experience, which does not succeed as much as the games it apes that only focus on one avenue. It's very pretty, engaging, and fun, but not perfect."
Yeah man what a bought review.
I wish there were a way to turn yourself into gold in the new game
Or any game, really
The thought of that process horrifies me and seeing it played out with modern graphics sounds like it'd be terrifying
the dude straight up says it got a lot better as it went on and he really enjoyed the last few hours especially
The game doesn't break any new ground but it checks all the boxes sounds fine to me. Not every gaming experience I have needs to reinvent the wheel. If it plays well and looks pretty that's OK too.
edit: this is a critique of the review, not the game. if you are going to award a tomb raider game an eight out of ten and want your reader to come away with the idea that it's very much worth playing, you don't start out by saying "the old guard of video game characters are dead and deserve to stay buried."
that part isn't true, that I remember
by about a third of the way through
But they're talking about old Lara Croft, not new Lara Croft. They are different characters.