So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
I am not certain where they can really go now. Space?
It may be best to just keep the duality of the games. One above and one below.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
No, it's not conscious. It's been demonstrated in the game many times how alternate timelines can affect your thinking. I don't think it's a stretch to say their rapport with one another was at least influenced by their relation.
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
So, considering "There is always be a lighthouse.", I guess there is going to be a whole series of Bioshock games. I am thinking probably one more in a different setting.
This did nail the ending this time though.
Ending spoilers:
"There's always a lighthouse, always a man, always a city."
I loved how they tied in Bioshock with Bioshock:Infinite. A lot of the themes tie in nicely and there's a good parallel between the two. I hope this quote means another thing like this. A new setting, a new character and a new lighthouse, exploring new themes. City in sky and city underwater have been done... next is city... somewhere else?
Then of course they subvert their own established tropes, like they did with this one as well.
I am not certain where they can really go now. Space?
It may be best to just keep the duality of the games. One above and one below.
They need to remake System Shock.
This was their plan all along... we've just gone full circle.
To those that don't know, it's Bioshock in Space. To those of us who know... mmm, wonderful.
Anyone fallen back on the pistol around mid-game and found it to be still a useful weapon? The first upgrade for reserve capacity I've come across is for the good ol' broomhandle Mauser, and I'm tempted, since it seems like a very versatile choice. But if it's going to gently tickle the enemies Columbia has in store instead of putting them down, I'll put it out of my mind right now.
Missing the wrench. The existing melee option with the right gear isn't bad, but I felt more in control with the wrench in Bioshock, and it worked for crowd control because it didn't make your perspective all crazy like lunging at someone with the melee weapon in this game.
I kept the pistol for most of the game except toward the end when I started juggling weapons either due to ammo shortage or because I had a good need for a specific weapon. I ended up losing my damn pistol for good. I lost my carbine at least twice. Sometimes the damn things just fly out of the world geometry!
I really hope Mike does art for this game at some point, like he did for Bioshock. LewieP's Mum painted me a version of it and it is absolutely stunning.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
As far as Booker's reasoning, it was one of guilt. Even though Booker doesn't remember giving up his child, he is still doing all of this to wipe away that debt, not a debt with an unknown party. He's doing it to settle a debt to himself. To redeem himself in his own eyes.
Elizabeth doesn't represent a romantic interest to him, she represents all of the things he's lost through his action. Innocence, goodness, hope. And it's obvious from the entirety of the game exactly what type of person Booker is when it comes to these things. In one universe he creates an entire religion to alleviate him of his guilt. In another he carves the initials of his daughter into his own hand to remind himself of the one act he finally couldn't go through with. The one he couldn't push inside.
Elizabeth had faith in Booker because she needed hope to hold onto. And Booker kept trying because this was it. If he gave up, he had no more chances to redeem himself. He would have sentenced another innocent to an unknown fate.
The hardest thing to keep in mind in this story is that everything we learn at the end, Booker is suppressing throughout the entire game. While he may not realize the events of his past, he does know it on some level. To put any motivation behind Booker's actions other than redemption and rebirth really cheapen the whole thing, and is only supported by interpretation instead of content (much like my interpretation, however mine is internally consistent with the other themes of the game).
Yeah, but System Shock does not have the sociological themes that the Bioshock series has.
How about a nihilistic society on the moon? A place where people become too obsessed with minutiae and have a lack of morals. Still, it would be tricky to work in a light house. Maybe a tether or something?
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
Yeah, but System Shock does not have the sociological themes that the Bioshock series has.
How about a nihilistic society on the moon? A place where people become too obsessed with minutiae. Still, it would be tricky to work in a light house. Maybe a tether or something?
Take various social/economic/political issues from our present and put them in the future? There would be a few to pick from. Someone said something about communism, that could be interesting too?
Space Station/Moon city. I'm on board. System Bioshock: clever title.
Also, they could have figured out how to be immortal. That would really amp things up.
Yeah, like, chambers that grant you unlimited vitality!
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I kind of hope they keep their games in the past, actually. They do a great job of integrating futuristic technology with past time periods. Rapture and Columbia both are incredibly charming.
But, the bad guys would use them too. Then, you would have to race to hack the regen machines so they truly die. Also, there will be enemies that could do that to you as well.
I'd actually love it if Irrational dropped the Bioshock name for the next game. Just made something new, well written, with a great and imaginative setting. Bioshock is this generation's franchise. Make a new one for next generation.
They could play off the whole rocket in the moon's eye movie thing. It would be kind of far fetched. Then again, all of the games have been.
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CarbonFireSee youin the countryRegistered Userregular
I think if we do get other Bioshock set in a different place,
Ending spoilers
any lighthouses would have to be figurative. Now that the cat is out of the bag with the multiverse, people will be expecting any future Bioshock story to tie into Infinite's storyline. Though thats probably inevitable, regardless of whether it has a lighthouse or not.
Honestly, I kind of hope Irrational makes something entirely different after this. They've both given themselves endless possibilities, as well as painted themselves into a corner.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
No, it's not conscious. It's been demonstrated in the game many times how alternate timelines can affect your thinking. I don't think it's a stretch to say their rapport with one another was at least influenced by their relation.
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
It seemed to me like characters only gained memories of their alternate selves when one died. I can't think of an instance supporting the contrary. Booker would have required Comstock's memories to know that Elizabeth was his daughter since any latent knowledge he may have had would've been of an infant daughter.
I concede you're right about sexual interest. It can exist without romantic interest. However romantic interest is really what's key here, and what prompted my original response in the quote tree (ie sex might not have been on Booker's mind, but romantic interest surely was, and that's something that occurs alongside sexual interest hence why I responded to confusion over sexual interest). Their actions implied something more than friendship, and I'm not convinced he knew, even unconsciously, that she was his daughter.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
Some of their dialogue.
The way their relationship evolves over time and becomes more intimate prior to Booker becoming aware of her as his daughter.
The bit with the corset in Comstock House after the tornado.
What dialogue specifically?
People can be intimately close without any sexual tension.
Her corset was half off and that's not something she could have fixed herself.
I didn't get a lot of sexual tension there either, and I assumed there would be romance in the game since...well, you're a hero rescuing a damsel from a tower guarded by a winged monster. Their interactions didn't have any romanticism about them, she's a naive girl and you're the grizzled vet just doing a job. None of your responses in battleship bay had any warmth to them, even though all of hers were full of wonder and pleasantness.
And the scene with the corset was after you saw Old regretful Elizabeth and a burning New York and after you ripped a giant needle from her spinal column. The dialogue there isn't a warm happy reunion, it's a reunion. Hell, she threatens you with a goddamn tornado for even implying you might try to stop her.
Spoilers
I think Battleship Bay is the end of a nascent romance. Old Elizabeth's voxophones refer to Booker as her "first hope", essentially her first chance at freedom. That combined with her life of only being able to read to experience the outside world while also being a teenager who has hardly seen people much less a member of the opposite sex there is definitely a chance that she at least initially felt some romantic feelings towards Booker. When she invites you to dance in Battleship Bay there was at least a touch of something going on there. I think if anything a lot of Booker's dialogue with Elizabeth is because he senses that in her, and so makes it very clear that he isn't interested. Like when she asks him about his wife, that felt probing even if it really wasn't. As a matter of fact, up until you get to the airship there are several moments where Elizabeth says things that are attempts at romanticizing Booker (i.e. Slate talking about Booker at Wounded Knee) and Booker essentially setting her straight.
The point is that at the very beginning of their time together, there is at least a tinge of sexual tension. However, I'd say that after reaching the airship and Booker's betrayal of Elizabeth that time is definitely over.
Thoughts on the Ending (pretty big spoilers):
I personally think the Booker you play is from an alternate timeline where his wife and Anna die in childbirth (which is a very real thing, and in 1912 was still relatively common). I mean, he seems to cope with what he did at Wounded Knee pretty well, and for all we know is that the dream Booker keeps having of his office is simply him starting to experience all the timelines intersecting on Columbia. Also, it's important that you focus on how many times he gets a nosebleed at the end of the game, which implies he's intersecting with another timeline. Because he destroys the him that sells his daughter and the him that becomes Comstock, he removes that entire portion of possibilities. So at the end, he gets Anna back, and therefore doesn't fall into drinking and gambling and therefore stays out of debt entirely. I'd have to go back and re-examine his desk in that little after-credit bit to double check, but I'm liking the idea of everything that you do has meaning because it stops a entire realm of horror and shitty things and atrocities that could happen from happening. It'll be interesting to see what the DLC tackles, and what they'll cover in the next Bioshock.
So far I'm loving the fact that Bioshock 1 and now Infinite (haven't played 2 yet) is kind of like what The Crucible was. A tale set in a past time in America making a poignant comment on present America.
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
No, it's not conscious. It's been demonstrated in the game many times how alternate timelines can affect your thinking. I don't think it's a stretch to say their rapport with one another was at least influenced by their relation.
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
It seemed to me like characters only gained memories of their alternate selves when one died. I can't think of an instance supporting the contrary. Booker would have required Comstock's memories to know that Elizabeth was his daughter since any latent knowledge he may have had would've been of an infant daughter.
I concede you're right about sexual interest. It can exist without romantic interest. However romantic interest is really what's key here, and what prompted my original response in the quote tree (ie sex might not have been on Booker's mind, but romantic interest surely was, and that's something that occurs alongside sexual interest hence why I responded to confusion over sexual interest). Their actions implied something more than friendship, and I'm not convinced he knew, even unconsciously, that she was his daughter.
I didn't think it was romantic, though. I thought it was growing into a guardian sort of relationship.
Game completed on 1999 Mode without having anything spoiled for me from anywhere. Not a single damn thing. It took vigilance and a near-blackout of the internet—not to mention that I turned into a total shut-in for the last few days—but I did it.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
No, it's not conscious. It's been demonstrated in the game many times how alternate timelines can affect your thinking. I don't think it's a stretch to say their rapport with one another was at least influenced by their relation.
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
It seemed to me like characters only gained memories of their alternate selves when one died. I can't think of an instance supporting the contrary. Booker would have required Comstock's memories to know that Elizabeth was his daughter since any latent knowledge he may have had would've been of an infant daughter.
I concede you're right about sexual interest. It can exist without romantic interest. However romantic interest is really what's key here, and what prompted my original response in the quote tree (ie sex might not have been on Booker's mind, but romantic interest surely was, and that's something that occurs alongside sexual interest hence why I responded to confusion over sexual interest). Their actions implied something more than friendship, and I'm not convinced he knew, even unconsciously, that she was his daughter.
I didn't think it was romantic, though. I thought it was growing into a guardian sort of relationship.
Guardian relationship? As in he saw himself as a sort of parental figure? If that was the case I'd have expected him to have shot down her repeated advances and implied interest more directly.
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CarbonFireSee youin the countryRegistered Userregular
You arrive at the space elevator on your space boat and go down to the space city on the moon
They could easily make the next game about some sort of domed utopian city on Earth, and you have to enter it through the lighthouse. The question is will they continue to go back further in time, or will they move forward?
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
No, it's not conscious. It's been demonstrated in the game many times how alternate timelines can affect your thinking. I don't think it's a stretch to say their rapport with one another was at least influenced by their relation.
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
It seemed to me like characters only gained memories of their alternate selves when one died. I can't think of an instance supporting the contrary. Booker would have required Comstock's memories to know that Elizabeth was his daughter since any latent knowledge he may have had would've been of an infant daughter.
I concede you're right about sexual interest. It can exist without romantic interest. However romantic interest is really what's key here, and what prompted my original response in the quote tree (ie sex might not have been on Booker's mind, but romantic interest surely was, and that's something that occurs alongside sexual interest hence why I responded to confusion over sexual interest). Their actions implied something more than friendship, and I'm not convinced he knew, even unconsciously, that she was his daughter.
I didn't think it was romantic, though. I thought it was growing into a guardian sort of relationship.
Plus they are both sharing in a pretty horrific ordeal in a city where everyone else is an enemy and they are surrounded. They have no one to confide in other than each other. And in the case of Elizabeth this is her first relationship of any kind with anyone. They became close out of necessity.
PSN ID : HBoxx
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CarbonFireSee youin the countryRegistered Userregular
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
No, it's not conscious. It's been demonstrated in the game many times how alternate timelines can affect your thinking. I don't think it's a stretch to say their rapport with one another was at least influenced by their relation.
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
It seemed to me like characters only gained memories of their alternate selves when one died. I can't think of an instance supporting the contrary. Booker would have required Comstock's memories to know that Elizabeth was his daughter since any latent knowledge he may have had would've been of an infant daughter.
I concede you're right about sexual interest. It can exist without romantic interest. However romantic interest is really what's key here, and what prompted my original response in the quote tree (ie sex might not have been on Booker's mind, but romantic interest surely was, and that's something that occurs alongside sexual interest hence why I responded to confusion over sexual interest). Their actions implied something more than friendship, and I'm not convinced he knew, even unconsciously, that she was his daughter.
I didn't think it was romantic, though. I thought it was growing into a guardian sort of relationship.
Guardian relationship? As in he saw himself as a sort of parental figure? If that was the case I'd have expected him to have shot down her repeated advances and implied interest more directly.
Other than early on in
Battleship bay, Im not really sure any of their interactions really implied that much romantic interest. And even then, it was only the vaguest of interests. And once Booker started killing, that relationship changed forever.
I kept the pistol for most of the game except toward the end when I started juggling weapons either due to ammo shortage or because I had a good need for a specific weapon. I ended up losing my damn pistol for good. I lost my carbine at least twice. Sometimes the damn things just fly out of the world geometry!
Thank you. I'm grabbing the next one I see and keeping the damned thing as long as possible. Plus, it's Han Solo's freaking blaster! How are you gonna not use that?
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
Some of their dialogue.
The way their relationship evolves over time and becomes more intimate prior to Booker becoming aware of her as his daughter.
The bit with the corset in Comstock House after the tornado.
What dialogue specifically?
People can be intimately close without any sexual tension.
Her corset was half off and that's not something she could have fixed herself.
I didn't get a lot of sexual tension there either, and I assumed there would be romance in the game since...well, you're a hero rescuing a damsel from a tower guarded by a winged monster. Their interactions didn't have any romanticism about them, she's a naive girl and you're the grizzled vet just doing a job. None of your responses in battleship bay had any warmth to them, even though all of hers were full of wonder and pleasantness.
And the scene with the corset was after you saw Old regretful Elizabeth and a burning New York and after you ripped a giant needle from her spinal column. The dialogue there isn't a warm happy reunion, it's a reunion. Hell, she threatens you with a goddamn tornado for even implying you might try to stop her.
Spoilers
I think Battleship Bay is the end of a nascent romance. Old Elizabeth's voxophones refer to Booker as her "first hope", essentially her first chance at freedom. That combined with her life of only being able to read to experience the outside world while also being a teenager who has hardly seen people much less a member of the opposite sex there is definitely a chance that she at least initially felt some romantic feelings towards Booker. When she invites you to dance in Battleship Bay there was at least a touch of something going on there. I think if anything a lot of Booker's dialogue with Elizabeth is because he senses that in her, and so makes it very clear that he isn't interested. Like when she asks him about his wife, that felt probing even if it really wasn't. As a matter of fact, up until you get to the airship there are several moments where Elizabeth says things that are attempts at romanticizing Booker (i.e. Slate talking about Booker at Wounded Knee) and Booker essentially setting her straight.
The point is that at the very beginning of their time together, there is at least a tinge of sexual tension. However, I'd say that after reaching the airship and Booker's betrayal of Elizabeth that time is definitely over.
Yes, a twenty year old girl whose been locked up in a tower probably has some unreleased sexual tension inside her but I never felt her come across that way towards Booker. I guess it's just subjective as you can see her attempts at trying to form a bond with her rescuer as romantic while I felt it was her reaching out to a possible friend. Don't get me wrong, I loved the character personally, I thought there might be some romantic moments coming as I continued playing but they never came. The only thing that came close, that I wrote off because of their already established relationship through the game, was on the airship up to the hand of the prophet where Booker tells her he wouldn't leave her and she said he really wouldn't.
Hell, I didn't even suspect that Elizabeth was his daughter until he opened the door to the crib.
I have absolutely no idea where people are picking up on "sexual tension" between Booker and Elizabeth. I don't remember one event even remotely suggesting that.
event? maybe not, but interest was there
How? Where? Men and women can care about each other without sexuality having any role.
I actually am on this opinion.
As true as it may be, it actually implies nothing
They both showed a keen interest in each other. Although Booker tried to keep Elizabeth at an arm's length because felt as though he could only hurt her, he obviously cared deeply for her. Booker went out of his way to do everything for her. He could've fled when the chips were down, but chose not to for her sake. You don't put yourself through all of that to settle a debt with an unknown party: sheltering her from psychological harm by assuming the psychologically taxing task of murder, risking your life for someone that scares you, repeatedly putting your life in imminent and increasing danger. None of that is something you'd do for a friend you'd only met a few hours prior. Elizabeth was constantly trying to get to know him. Better than a friend would. She inquired about his wife in a way that made her interest obvious. Asked him to button up her corset, something which will undoubtedly have some sexual undertones when asked of a straight man. Even when she was finally captured, she thought about him for years and still had faith in him after all that time. He was the one she moved through time and space to save her. He tried repeatedly in vain to save her for years, putting himself at risk. For what? To settle a debt with an unknown party when he could've gone anywhere in the world to escape them via an airship? None of this is exemplifies the sort of faith and devotion two people would have without romantic feelings for one another after having known each other for such a short period of time.
Now what is the evidence supporting the idea that they only had platonic feelings for one another?
You could just say that the forgotten knowledge of their being related might have influenced how they cared about one another. I dunno, I think they definitely cared about one another but I think sexual tension implies a very specific thing.
However he had no reason to believe that she was in fact his baby daughter who he couldn't remember and thought was dead.
I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
No, it's not conscious. It's been demonstrated in the game many times how alternate timelines can affect your thinking. I don't think it's a stretch to say their rapport with one another was at least influenced by their relation.
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
It seemed to me like characters only gained memories of their alternate selves when one died. I can't think of an instance supporting the contrary. Booker would have required Comstock's memories to know that Elizabeth was his daughter since any latent knowledge he may have had would've been of an infant daughter.
I concede you're right about sexual interest. It can exist without romantic interest. However romantic interest is really what's key here, and what prompted my original response in the quote tree (ie sex might not have been on Booker's mind, but romantic interest surely was, and that's something that occurs alongside sexual interest hence why I responded to confusion over sexual interest). Their actions implied something more than friendship, and I'm not convinced he knew, even unconsciously, that she was his daughter.
I didn't think it was romantic, though. I thought it was growing into a guardian sort of relationship.
Plus they are both sharing in a pretty horrific ordeal in a city where everyone else is an enemy and they are surrounded. They have no one to confide in other than each other. And in the case of Elizabeth this is her first relationship of any kind with anyone. They became close out of necessity.
That's definitely not the sort of relationship you'd expect to develop from such a situation, and neither Booker nor Comstock had that sort of relationship with Slate. In light of that, why would Booker show such devotion to Elizabeth? And why would Elizabeth place trust him again so easily when she felt he betrayed her? And why wouldn't she just escape when she had the opportunity after that, rather helping Booker?
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I'm conflating sexual tension and romantic interest. Yes. I think they're the same.
...I decided not to try out 1999 mode...
Also I don't think they are the same. I think you can definitely have one without the other.
This was their plan all along... we've just gone full circle.
To those that don't know, it's Bioshock in Space. To those of us who know... mmm, wonderful.
That didn't really need to be spoiler'd I guess.
Steam: abunchofdaftpunk | PSN: noautomobilesgo | Lastfm: sjchszeppelin | Backloggery: colincummings | 3DS FC: 1392-6019-0219 |
I kept the pistol for most of the game except toward the end when I started juggling weapons either due to ammo shortage or because I had a good need for a specific weapon. I ended up losing my damn pistol for good. I lost my carbine at least twice. Sometimes the damn things just fly out of the world geometry!
I really hope Mike does art for this game at some point, like he did for Bioshock. LewieP's Mum painted me a version of it and it is absolutely stunning.
Steam: abunchofdaftpunk | PSN: noautomobilesgo | Lastfm: sjchszeppelin | Backloggery: colincummings | 3DS FC: 1392-6019-0219 |
Elizabeth doesn't represent a romantic interest to him, she represents all of the things he's lost through his action. Innocence, goodness, hope. And it's obvious from the entirety of the game exactly what type of person Booker is when it comes to these things. In one universe he creates an entire religion to alleviate him of his guilt. In another he carves the initials of his daughter into his own hand to remind himself of the one act he finally couldn't go through with. The one he couldn't push inside.
Elizabeth had faith in Booker because she needed hope to hold onto. And Booker kept trying because this was it. If he gave up, he had no more chances to redeem himself. He would have sentenced another innocent to an unknown fate.
The hardest thing to keep in mind in this story is that everything we learn at the end, Booker is suppressing throughout the entire game. While he may not realize the events of his past, he does know it on some level. To put any motivation behind Booker's actions other than redemption and rebirth really cheapen the whole thing, and is only supported by interpretation instead of content (much like my interpretation, however mine is internally consistent with the other themes of the game).
How about a nihilistic society on the moon? A place where people become too obsessed with minutiae and have a lack of morals. Still, it would be tricky to work in a light house. Maybe a tether or something?
Space elevator.
DUH!
You forgot the adjective.
Don't worry, I got your back.
Space Station/Moon city. I'm on board. System Bioshock: clever title.
Steam: abunchofdaftpunk | PSN: noautomobilesgo | Lastfm: sjchszeppelin | Backloggery: colincummings | 3DS FC: 1392-6019-0219 |
Yeah, like, chambers that grant you unlimited vitality!
Like steampunk in space.
Is that too far-fetched?
Ending spoilers
Honestly, I kind of hope Irrational makes something entirely different after this. They've both given themselves endless possibilities, as well as painted themselves into a corner.
I concede you're right about sexual interest. It can exist without romantic interest. However romantic interest is really what's key here, and what prompted my original response in the quote tree (ie sex might not have been on Booker's mind, but romantic interest surely was, and that's something that occurs alongside sexual interest hence why I responded to confusion over sexual interest). Their actions implied something more than friendship, and I'm not convinced he knew, even unconsciously, that she was his daughter.
Spoilers
The point is that at the very beginning of their time together, there is at least a tinge of sexual tension. However, I'd say that after reaching the airship and Booker's betrayal of Elizabeth that time is definitely over.
Thoughts on the Ending (pretty big spoilers):
So far I'm loving the fact that Bioshock 1 and now Infinite (haven't played 2 yet) is kind of like what The Crucible was. A tale set in a past time in America making a poignant comment on present America.
The themes in that book would easily lend themselves to a Bioshock story and world.
It's a shame they've already explored libertarianism though.
Edit: and of course the book I'm referring to is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Which I'd hope everyone has read.
Game completed on 1999 Mode without having anything spoiled for me from anywhere. Not a single damn thing. It took vigilance and a near-blackout of the internet—not to mention that I turned into a total shut-in for the last few days—but I did it.
...god damn that was an amazing fucking game.
Can we combine the two somehow?
SWAT Teams fighting communists in space
They could easily make the next game about some sort of domed utopian city on Earth, and you have to enter it through the lighthouse. The question is will they continue to go back further in time, or will they move forward?
PSN ID : HBoxx
Other than early on in
Thank you. I'm grabbing the next one I see and keeping the damned thing as long as possible. Plus, it's Han Solo's freaking blaster! How are you gonna not use that?
SWAT 5 needs to happen. I can't even begin to account for how many hours I sank into 3 and 4. Amazing games.
Hell, I didn't even suspect that Elizabeth was his daughter until he opened the door to the crib.