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[Magic: the Gathering] Turbo Frog Still Not A Deck

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    Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Yeah, arcanist is just too weak. I've tried using him in several decks.

    I bought a playset because I was convinced he was good.

    He is not.

    Well, ok... He's good. But he's just weak.

    Anon the Felon on
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    TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Triton Fortune Hunter is a more reliable source of CA, but I would keep the Battlewise Hoplites. Nivmagus only means that you are feeding the spells to him and that's more of a Modern deck, with more catnips and Phyrexian mana, and you want white aggresive creatures to maximize Brave the Elements and trying to cast a creature from your secundary color turn 1 is very, very hard to do, even with shocklands. I could see him from the board though.

    If you really don't want Battlewise Hoplites, a nasty creature is Precinct Captain. Doesn't trade too easily due to First Strike, and 1-2 direct hits provide value inmediatly.

    The main spells that kill Elite Arcanists that don't kill everything else are Shock and Last Breath. Having your 4 mana creature dying to spells that kill 1-2 mana creatures is bad.

    Overall, from Heroic, I search for creatures that have effects on the board and/or provide CA inmediatly, since the format is so intense on removal. Between Burn, Black spells, Last Breath, D-Sphere and Veredict, if a deck wants to kill your creatures they will. So trying to get cute is likely not going to work. Devotion works because a curve filled with devotion can easily get lethal damage on turn 4-5.

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    GriswoldGriswold that's rough, buddyRegistered User regular
    edited January 2014
    The biggest strike against Elite Arcanist is that, even in a best-case scenario (where the opponent has no way to interact with him), he's still 6 mana and 3 turns for you to break even on value as opposed to having those Arcanists just being another Heroic enabler.

    Instead of casting Arcanist, imprinting Triton Tactics, and then activating him on turns 5 and 6, you could just cast two Heroic enablers on turn 4 and be in a much better position.

    EDIT: I'm positive your deck wants another one-drop in place of Arcanist. Others have mentioned Soldier of the Pantheon, which I agree is the best option (but you mentioned out of your price range), so consider Dryad Militant, Boros Elite, or Cloudfin Raptor in that slot.

    Griswold on
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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Speaking of the stack and Nivmagus, I just want to be clear. If I cast a spell, and my opponent uses, say a Dissolve to counter it, I can use Nivmagus to still exile the spell and pump Niv up? Despite the counterspell being 'ahead' on the stack?

    Correct for everything but "still".

    When you cast a spell while controlling Nivmagus Elemental, you have a choice: do you want that spell to resolve, or do you want to "eat" it? You can't have both. Here's the step-by-step breakdown (which is more obvious if you're playing on MTGO):

    1: You cast an instant/sorcery.
    1.5: You retain priority and activate Nivmagus Elemental's ability, the cost of which is exiling the spell from step 1. Costs cannot be responded to, but this ability can be so your Elemental can be killed before he receives his +1/+1s.
    2: You pass priority. (Note that it is an official tournament shortcut that you are assumed to pass priority after doing anything unless you explicitly say so in Step 1.) Proceed to step 3.

    3a: Your opponent passes priority back. When both (all) players pass priority successively, the most recent object on the stack immediately resolves. This means that your spell happens and you can no longer feed it to Nivmagus.
    3b: Your opponent does something in response, then passes priority back to you. (Return to Step 2.)

    If 3b happens, you can then eat the spell in response. If what your opponent did targeted your original spell (Dissolve), what he did will be countered by the game rules (in this specific case, he will not get to scry) because it no longer has any legal targets (it was eaten by your Elemental).

    Vyolynce on
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    Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    I love Nivmagus for those very instances.

    I cast a spell I want to resolve, opponent tries to screw me.

    At least I get something out of the spell. And hopefully ruin his ability to trigger anything.

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    skarsolskarsol Registered User regular
    The most fun is if you cast a spell, they cast a counter, you activate Nivmagus (which goes on the stack, targeting your spell), they think they're super clever and cast a 2nd counter thinking it will cause your activation to fizzle and then you can just activate Nivmagus again. It only works once against a given opponent, but when it does their expression is hilarious. (And I usually let them roll back the 2nd counterspell, but still fun)

    As far as it being a mainly Modern card, don't knock it till you try it with the Heroic decks. It works super well with Cipher and Heroic, you don't need Phyrexian mana and cantrips to pitch to it.

    why are you smelling it?
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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    skarsol wrote: »
    The most fun is if you cast a spell, they cast a counter, you activate Nivmagus (which goes on the stack, targeting your spell), they think they're super clever and cast a 2nd counter thinking it will cause your activation to fizzle and then you can just activate Nivmagus again. It only works once against a given opponent, but when it does their expression is hilarious. (And I usually let them roll back the 2nd counterspell, but still fun)

    Except it doesn't actually work and you have to let them roll back the second because the spell is already gone as soon as you activate it the first time. That ability targets nothing. See above.

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited January 2014
    skarsol wrote: »
    The most fun is if you cast a spell, they cast a counter, you activate Nivmagus (which goes on the stack, targeting your spell), they think they're super clever and cast a 2nd counter thinking it will cause your activation to fizzle and then you can just activate Nivmagus again. It only works once against a given opponent, but when it does their expression is hilarious. (And I usually let them roll back the 2nd counterspell, but still fun)

    You are correct that a second counterspell does your opponent no good... but not for the reasons you state.

    Take another look at Vyolynce's post. It exiles the spell as a cost. This happens immediately when the ability is announced.

    Because it is a cost, it doesn't target the spell.

    Because exiling a spell is a cost, you cannot activate Nivmagus again on the same spell.

    Because the exiled spell is no longer on the stack at all once you've announced Nivmagus's ability, it is not a valid target for a second counterspell, which means the opponent cannot announce that second counterspell. You said you usually let them roll it back, which is good, but if you were in super-competitive mode (say, a Pro Tour) and you decided "today, I'm not going to be nice and I'm just going to let that second counterspell fizzle and go to the graveyard," you would actually be in the wrong, and depending on the situation it could get you in trouble (unlikely, but possible).

    edit: beaten by Vyolynce

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    edit: beaten by Vyolynce

    Well you took the time to make your post pretty. ;)

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    skarsolskarsol Registered User regular
    Oh, bah, I forgot it was a cost. I guess in my defense so do most other people apparently. :P

    why are you smelling it?
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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    skarsol wrote: »
    Oh, bah, I forgot it was a cost. I guess in my defense so do most other people apparently. :P

    I still get asked "can I respond to that sacrifice" all the time, so... yeah. Costs are kind of a higher-level concept when it isn't just mana or life.

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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    So I built the deck. Cost me three tickets, two of which where from my original purchase (so a dollar!)

    I got the Battlewise Hoplites AND the Arcanists. Arcanists are in there now, but may come out if it's as bad as you guys say.

    The Nivmaguses are huge in this deck. Thanks for that suggestion!

    Still needs fine tuning, but it's very fun to play so far

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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    So I built the deck. Cost me three tickets, two of which where from my original purchase (so a dollar!)

    I got the Battlewise Hoplites AND the Arcanists. Arcanists are in there now, but may come out if it's as bad as you guys say.

    The Nivmaguses are huge in this deck. Thanks for that suggestion!

    Still needs fine tuning, but it's very fun to play so far

    Note: hold down Control if you want to cast a spell and immediately use Nivmagus's ability to exile a spell for counters. Otherwise the spell will resolve unless your opponent responds with another spell or ability.

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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH 0-3 in my latest Cube. No matter how many times I Cube, I never manage to assemble anything broken, just durdly Blue decks.

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    GriswoldGriswold that's rough, buddyRegistered User regular
    UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH 0-3 in my latest Cube. No matter how many times I Cube, I never manage to assemble anything broken, just durdly Blue decks.

    From watching/drafting Holiday Cube, broken decks require three things:

    1) Fast mana (or cards that allow you to viciously cheat on mana, like Tinker/Treachery/Time Spiral)
    2) Cheap spells
    3) Card draw

    You also need some sort of win condition that synergizes with that. Any of the Storm cards work, as do big artifact/planeswalker finishers.

    U/x is really tough to draft and play in this cube, though. You may want to try forcing aggro or mono-red to mix it up. It's alot easier to visualize what you need to make a deck like that work while you're drafting it.

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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    While I was definitely attracted to drafting U/x decks because they have the most obvious power and drawing cards is awesome, I think I had the most success drafting B/W Armageddon/Stax/Tangle Wire decks. The Blue decks kinda need some amount of Power 9 in order to compete against the other Blue decks, and I was also losing to MonoRed an uncomfortable amount.

    Every time I tried to draft Storm I would fail miserably and only get like Brain Freeze and then end up facing a dude with multiple Eldrazi.

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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Are there any other sites that have awesome deck analysis articles like Wizards' ReConstructed? I really enjoy reading those and find them very informative

    APODionysus on
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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    star city games is pretty good. They have a wide variety of articles on the different formats. Also Channel Fireball

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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Frank Karsten at ChannelFireball.com has informative analyses on standard.

    metaghost wrote: »
    While I was definitely attracted to drafting U/x decks because they have the most obvious power and drawing cards is awesome, I think I had the most success drafting B/W Armageddon/Stax/Tangle Wire decks. The Blue decks kinda need some amount of Power 9 in order to compete against the other Blue decks, and I was also losing to MonoRed an uncomfortable amount.

    Every time I tried to draft Storm I would fail miserably and only get like Brain Freeze and then end up facing a dude with multiple Eldrazi.

    Storm is definitely able to 3-0 if you have tendrils and multiple ways to draw seven cards and yawgmoths will. It is really difficult to play well though. You have to know when to go off and when to be patient and wait a turn or two. Also not to forget to hold ctrl. :lol:

    I say my most succesful powered cube attempts have been heavy blue decks with reasonably fast mana and either upheaval or some other unbeatable card. Tinker and Vedalken Shackles are insane and two of the reasons control can defeat mono red. Nothing like a sphinx of the steel wind or blightsteel colossus on turn three gainst red decks, or steal a creature and trade or take a burn card and doing it over and over again.

    Without card draw, decks are so inconsistent. I tried aggro with armageddons, sneak attack, channel eldrazi/tooth and nail, but I always fail by drawing blanks or having all my expensive cards in my opening hand.

    Chen on
    V0Gug2h.png
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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    So after playing with the deck some more, I'm thinking of some tweaks

    1) The Fabled Hero/Hidden Strings combo is nasty. Actually Hidden Strings is pretty big on any of my heroics. That makes me want to push them through more. The best way to do that seems to be Aqueous Form. The Scry that gives is pretty huge too. So what Spells to drop? I'm thinking of cutting a few Mizzium Skin or Gods Willing. While they act as my only removal protecting, since I'm lacking counter spells, the extra aggression may be worth it.

    Of the two, I'm more inclined to cut Mizzium Skin. Gods Willing may be less flexible in terms of removal protection because you have to pick a color, it also can give a one-turn unblockable status, or prevent damage in a blocking situation. Plus it saves a creature in event of a sweeper.

    Granted if my opponent can swing two different colored removal spells at my guy in one turn, then Mizzium Skin would have been better, but I think Gods Willing is better in more situations.

    2) I haven't been able to pull of a combo with Arcanist yet. Not because they've been destroyed before I can get them out, but because I just haven't gotten it out. I'm gonna play it a bit more, but I pull that plan,

    APODionysus on
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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    Are there any other sites that have awesome deck analysis articles like Wizards' ReConstructed? I really enjoy reading those and find them very informative

    Well, pretty much every Magic website has deck analysis content, but Gavin Verhey's kinda in a lane of his own, in terms of making that sort of content engaging and rife with insight.

    It's also notable that Gavin's articles are more oriented towards players that sit in the interstice of casual and competitive, whereas the content of writer/players like Conley Woods and Caleb Durward are distinctly more about developing decks for a competitive purpose. Caleb's articles in particular (Legacy Weapon) are really excellent, but they're essentially worthless if you're not at a point where understanding the nuances of Legacy are relevant.

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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    That's probably why I like Gavin's work so much. I'm right in his target demo.

    Plus as you said, he writes really well. I like the way he takes a readers deck, talks about its specific goals, breaks down each card and how it fits, then replaces cards, carefully explaining each replacement,

    It's just really well done. Even reading about decks outside of my budget has taught me a lot about how to think about my own decks.

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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    Chen wrote: »
    Without card draw, decks are so inconsistent. I tried aggro with armageddons, sneak attack, channel eldrazi/tooth and nail, but I always fail by drawing blanks or having all my expensive cards in my opening hand.

    Yeah, I should point out that my successful B/W decks basically had two real reasons for success:

    1. Enlightened Tutor
    2. Vampiric Tutor

    Guaranteeing the ability to curve into Tangle Wire is divine.

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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    Speaking of Card Draw:

    I just realized that Hidden Strings can untap Lands as well, allowing me to cast an extra creature, or leave mana open for Gods Willing or Mizzium Skin protection on my opponents turn.

    But that would need card draw! So it looks like Triton Fortune Hunter may be coming into the deck. That may be the end of at least some of my Arcanists (I really like having the Nivmaguses in there). Sigh. It sounded so good in my head.

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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    Watching Glenn Jones in Cube go:

    Game 1 - Turn 2: Channel, Emrakul
    Game 2 - Turn 4: Entomb (Emrakul), Corpse Dance w/ Emrakul's trigger on the stack

    Two matches in a row, never gets old.

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    I just 3-0'd with White Weenie, so good news is it's entirely possible to win with a non-blue deck in powered cube. Bad news is, I had all the sick white cards. Three Savannah Lions, Mother of Runes, Gideon's Lawkeeper, Figure of Destiny, Relic-Warder (this guy is so good in powered cube), Spectral Procession, Mirran Crusader, Silverblade Paladin, Flickerwisp, Stoneforge Mystic (with Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of War and Peace), Armageddon, a Mox and Chrome Mox, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Unexpectedly Absent, Parallax Wave, Honor of the Pure. I even picked up Lingering Souls and B/W Sorin, but couldn't pick up Scrubland or Godless Shrine to fetch, so I put Winter Orb in instead and one less land to go pure mono.

    In the first round I won against a B/W with all removal and Moat. The second and third round weren't even close. It's pretty dang rewarding to read signals correctly and get all the sweet cards nobody else wants. Too bad holiday cube is going to end in four days.

    V0Gug2h.png
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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    Second thoughts on Fortune Hunter:

    While card draw is huge, would I want to burn a trigger that could be on Fabled Hero or Phalanx Leader?

    If I had a bomb I was trying to draw into (like a magic world where I had an Elpseth or AEtherling), then yeah, but otherwise?

    By the way, is AEtherling as awesome as he seems? He seems like an ideal card for any deck with blue.

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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    By the way, is AEtherling as awesome as he seems? He seems like an ideal card for any deck with blue.

    He was thee finisher of choice for many months, as there were all these control decks that just stared at each other until someone resolved Aetherling.

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    LucedesLucedes might be real Registered User regular
    once you resolve the kung-fu master, he is basically invincible.

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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2014
    metaghost wrote: »
    By the way, is AEtherling as awesome as he seems? He seems like an ideal card for any deck with blue.

    He was thee finisher of choice for many months, as there were all these control decks that just stared at each other until someone resolved Aetherling.

    Still is. Elspeth is a great one or two-of, but her whole "dies to Hero's Downfall" means she can never replace the Boss.

    (edit: apparently he's slipped out a bit. I guess I missed a month or so of Standard.)

    admanb on
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    TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Aetherling is usually played as a 1-of, with 2 Elspeths and 4 Jaces.

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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    I used to maindeck Pithing Needle just to be able to deal with that nuisance.

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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    I've been watching a lot of competitive Magic lately. Today I clicked on the first YouTube result, which was the GP Loiusville finals. Game 1 just ended

    Just want to say that Pack Rat is ridiculous.

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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    It's pretty amazing to see Pack Rat go from "auto-win draft pick" to finally finding a home in Standard, where turn 2 pack rat can still just win games.

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
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    TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    Aegis wrote: »
    It's pretty amazing to see Pack Rat go from "auto-win draft pick" to finally finding a home in Standard, where turn 2 pack rat can still just win games.

    I didn't realize it at first, but Pack Rat playing into Devotion is pretty gross.

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    APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    It's pretty amazing to see Pack Rat go from "auto-win draft pick" to finally finding a home in Standard, where turn 2 pack rat can still just win games.

    I didn't realize it at first, but Pack Rat playing into Devotion is pretty gross.

    Your not kidding.

    One of the things I'm learning watching the Competitive stuff is just how unafraid they are to lose some life. Being so willing to pay life with Underworld Connections dropping you from 7 to 6 when your opponent is at 20 is hard for me to fathom, yet the guy who did that WON!

    By the way, can anyone give me the rundown on how Grand Prixs and Pro Tours work and relate to each other?

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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Someone else will probably be able to give a better overview of that stuff than I could, but you may want to know there's an SCG Open going on right now.

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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    Grand Prix are open tournaments and feed the Pro Tour depending on the size of the tournament. It consists of two days. Players who have an x-2 record in day one advance to day two, where you play with the same deck or draft packs twice, depending whether the format is constructed or limited.

    Pro Tours are invite-only. First day lasts ten rounds. Records of 5-5 (I think) advance to day two. Top eight fight it out in day three. You can qualify by either winning a pro tour qualifier, reaching top x in a grand prix or have top x highest planeswalker points in your region of the season (or be in the hall of fame).

    V0Gug2h.png
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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Chen wrote: »
    Grand Prix are open tournaments and feed the Pro Tour depending on the size of the tournament. It consists of two days. Players who have an x-2 record in day one advance to day two, where you play with the same deck or draft packs twice, depending whether the format is constructed or limited.

    Pro Tours are invite-only. First day lasts ten rounds. Records of 5-5 (I think) advance to day two. Top eight fight it out in day three. You can qualify by either winning a pro tour qualifier, reaching top x in a grand prix or have top x highest planeswalker points in your region of the season (or be in the hall of fame).

    Making it to the top 25 of the previous Pro Tour also qualifies you.

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    metaghostmetaghost An intriguing odor A delicate touchRegistered User regular
    By the way, can anyone give me the rundown on how Grand Prixs and Pro Tours work and relate to each other?

    This link explains it: Tournament Structure Explained

    In short, Grand Prix are frequent open-attendance tournaments. Cash prizes are payed out down to 64th place, top 16 competitors also earn Pro Points (which are now used for entry to each year's World Champs), and top 4 get invitations to the Pro Tour.

    Pro Tours are invite-only tournaments that, as of this year, are quarterly. The tournaments are capped at ~400, the prize pool is $250k, and victors get a shit-ton of Pro Points.

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