One other thing is that because the village had no traditional specials, it had the two things to go on: the public roadblock, which we maybe could have worked with; and the previous day's vote, with the highly suspicious maneuvering I performed to save myself. Otherwise it's day one, part two.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I wouldn't bang on, but I sort of want to voice what I disliked about the game so that the next game can be better.
Overall though, it does seem like you overstretched a bit Obi, and in trying to balance the abilities you gave the specials, you added more powerful and frustrating counter-measures on the opposite side.
Maybe it could have just been a simpler game?
I wouldn't bang on, but I sort of want to voice what I disliked about the game so that the next game can be better.
Overall though, it does seem like you overstretched a bit Obi, and in trying to balance the abilities you gave the specials, you added more powerful and frustrating counter-measures on the opposite side.
Maybe it could have just been a simpler game?
I kind of like them as both giving the village a way to hurt the mafia and shoot themselves in the foot without any player removal.
From the roleblocker perspective: I made something not happen!
From the roleblocked perspective: my cool thing didn't happen!
Making things fail to happen is not fun and having your power fail is also not fun. 100% of the time I want to roleblock someone as a villager I'd rather vote them out instead.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The funny thing is, 2nd night I was forced to talk to someone just in case someone killed me.
I was guarding because I couldn't lose Favor, and just in case Drez was village and I died, I was going to talk to someone who had been in the last minute scramble for the vote the previous night.
Wound up pretty much randomly talking to Lucedes, but I was actually planning on talking to you, ahava.
And then Drez wasn't mafia, and Lucedes never got close enough to being confirmed, but she and capfalcon were fighting for the last place on my mafia list.
Btw, I'm two-for-two with you when it comes to hosting games that seem to generally piss off and annoy you.
So yeah...
Didn't you do the Hot Potato games?
Yeah.
I remember walking away from hosting that game thinking "welp, of all the players I have ever annoyed/pissed off with the games I've hosted, this discrider guy probably wants to be their leader now."
I kind of like them as both giving the village a way to hurt the mafia and shoot themselves in the foot without any player removal.
From the roleblocker perspective: I made something not happen!
From the roleblocked perspective: my cool thing didn't happen!
Making things fail to happen is not fun and having your power fail is also not fun. 100% of the time I want to roleblock someone as a villager I'd rather vote them out instead.
dammit good point
edit: but wait, how is that different from guardingand stopping a vig?
Btw, I'm two-for-two with you when it comes to hosting games that seem to generally piss off and annoy you.
So yeah...
Didn't you do the Hot Potato games?
Yeah.
I remember walking away from hosting that game thinking "welp, of all the players I have ever annoyed/pissed off with the games I've hosted, this discrider guy probably wants to be their leader now."
Oh yeah.
I had forgotten about that whole "Make plan to save the seer, act on poorly written role/clarification/whatever it was, accidentally kill seer" thing.
The whole "creating a bro network that wins the game" thing sort of over-ruled that.
I kind of like them as both giving the village a way to hurt the mafia and shoot themselves in the foot without any player removal.
From the roleblocker perspective: I made something not happen!
From the roleblocked perspective: my cool thing didn't happen!
Making things fail to happen is not fun and having your power fail is also not fun. 100% of the time I want to roleblock someone as a villager I'd rather vote them out instead.
dammit good point
edit: but wait, how is that different from guardingand stopping a vig?
I have to agree with ebum.
But there are two differences:
1) The biggest is: "All of your actions fail tonight" is vastly different from "your actions against this person failed tonight." One suggests you still have some agency - your choice of target is a factor of your success. One is just kind of bullshit and annoying.
2) Vigilante and guardian are straightforward staples mafia, right? It certainly sucks to be a vig who can't hit a desired target, but that's all it is and it doesn't have the same frustrating permanence that roleblocking seems to have.
Also, I just feel like you are working against yourself as a host and game designer when you include roleblocks. You've created a cool role but given people the opportunity to never let that role be used. It happens too often in games with roleblocks.
The flaw is that unknowns when it comes to your own powers is just straight not fun. The only time I would consider doing it is in an inherently silly game like a Phalla Phalla with an RNG type role. Like I get how mathematically this was pretty and balanced but psychologically most people are going to be gunshy about using an unpredictable power.
This is true and something I am learning when it comes to phalla design. I admit I still don't fully understand it though. Either you are a vanillager with no power (standard) or in this game you are a vanillager with a power that requires networking and teamwork. So either you act like a normal vanillager or go deep into the game. Should be a win win for letting people play how they want. But instead it makes it worse.
Well, you can always just give the entire player population something that does nothing to the game at large.
Like busdrivers!
I kind of like them as both giving the village a way to hurt the mafia and shoot themselves in the foot without any player removal.
From the roleblocker perspective: I made something not happen!
From the roleblocked perspective: my cool thing didn't happen!
Making things fail to happen is not fun and having your power fail is also not fun. 100% of the time I want to roleblock someone as a villager I'd rather vote them out instead.
dammit good point
edit: but wait, how is that different from guardingand stopping a vig?
Roleblock: you do not get to do a thing!
Guard: I would like this person to keep doing things!
Obviously is still sucks for the person who tried to kill the guarded person, but it feels way more active and useful to guard someone. Stronger for the village, too for obvious reasons.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
The funny thing is, 2nd night I was forced to talk to someone just in case someone killed me.
I was guarding because I couldn't lose Favor, and just in case Drez was village and I died, I was going to talk to someone who had been in the last minute scramble for the vote the previous night.
Wound up pretty much randomly talking to Lucedes, but I was actually planning on talking to you, ahava.
And then Drez wasn't mafia, and Lucedes never got close enough to being confirmed, but she and capfalcon were fighting for the last place on my mafia list.
I was on the knife-edge of coloring Cap green as well in that last vote summary. I was sure once Lucedes bailed on Day 5.
It was the rest of the mafia I had no certainty about!
Obi: I think my action pattern is relevant. Sounds like you expected lieutenants to try and use their power as a seering but I was worried about:
1) Gaining too much favor too quickly.
2) Not being able to rely on how much Favor I had, therefore potentially enabling me to guard or kill someone I didn't intend to guard or kill.
I don't know how the other lieutenants acted every night but I was a little afraid to attempt to use my power every night.
The flaw is that unknowns when it comes to your own powers is just straight not fun. The only time I would consider doing it is in an inherently silly game like a Phalla Phalla with an RNG type role. Like I get how mathematically this was pretty and balanced but psychologically most people are going to be gunshy about using an unpredictable power.
This is true and something I am learning when it comes to phalla design. I admit I still don't fully understand it though. Either you are a vanillager with no power (standard) or in this game you are a vanillager with a power that requires networking and teamwork. So either you act like a normal vanillager or go deep into the game. Should be a win win for letting people play how they want. But instead it makes it worse.
Well, you can always just give the entire player population something that does nothing to the game at large.
Like busdrivers!
Ridiculous busdriver chains are the best thing.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
The flaw is that unknowns when it comes to your own powers is just straight not fun. The only time I would consider doing it is in an inherently silly game like a Phalla Phalla with an RNG type role. Like I get how mathematically this was pretty and balanced but psychologically most people are going to be gunshy about using an unpredictable power.
This is true and something I am learning when it comes to phalla design. I admit I still don't fully understand it though. Either you are a vanillager with no power (standard) or in this game you are a vanillager with a power that requires networking and teamwork. So either you act like a normal vanillager or go deep into the game. Should be a win win for letting people play how they want. But instead it makes it worse.
Well, you can always just give the entire player population something that does nothing to the game at large.
Like busdrivers!
Ridiculous busdriver chains are the best thing.
KetBra as the adventurer-aligned ghost possessing kime the vigilante, trying to work out a Rend deal with the mafia because he was confident he was nigh-invulnerable due to the ghost's mechanics, and getting wrecked by a busdriven kill was my absolute favorite moment as a host thus far.
Obi: I think my action pattern is relevant. Sounds like you expected lieutenants to try and use their power as a seering but I was worried about:
1) Gaining too much favor too quickly.
2) Not being able to rely on how much Favor I had, therefore potentially enabling me to guard or kill someone I didn't intend to guard or kill.
I don't know how the other lieutenants acted every night but I was a little afraid to attempt to use my power every night.
Yeah, this is exactly why I would consider this a noble failed experiment. #2 in particular had to be solved. I think I'd scrap the lieutenants as they exist and give them boss power #2 and taking that away from the boss. That might preserve enough of our focus on the vote record while keeping at least a little information on what power you were actually using in the game.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Also, like, I was 100% sure I was getting a vig kill last night if Bedlam was evil. Which is relevant to the discussion of (a) roleblocks and (b) not being fully aware of your own power/situation.
HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
Were there any cases of someone trying to seer and unintentionally doing a vig kill instead? I thought I had 3 favor the night I died, so I tried to seer Langly -- who died from a vig kill. So really, my question is, did I accidentally kill Langly? I spent the last couple days speculating that the snitches had the ability to raise the villages favor somehow just to screw with them.
I still think we had a good shot at this with my plan. The boss could have made up for holes caused by deaths, so on day 3 we actually should have ended up better than I thought originally (which was days(2)*(deaths(3)-1)+1 = 5 holes.
Drez, FYI, I wasn't offended by your conversation about me reading as a dead person.
Thanks Obi. Good concept. I think village had to be a lot more rules abusey than they were ultimately willing/able to be to win, but thems the breaks.
Whee.
So not only were our specials' powers a liability to the village, but we also couldn't ever have blindsided the mafia with them.
GG Host.
fuck off. if you're not going to be cordial in the game you could at least try after the game is over. if your intention in these games is to just be overly mean about everything you do, don't play. the whole point is that it's a social party game.
I still think we had a good shot at this with my plan. The boss could have made up for holes caused by deaths, so on day 3 we actually should have ended up better than I thought originally (which was days(2)*(deaths(3)-1)+1 = 5 holes.
Drez, FYI, I wasn't offended by your conversation about me reading as a dead person.
Thanks Obi. Good concept. I think village had to be a lot more rules abusey than they were ultimately willing/able to be to win, but thems the breaks.
I may have misjudged.
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
Man, I actually thought the mafia was pretty OP during the first few nights, but seeing the power the village had...we got really, really lucky. Besides that, our cover was basically completely blown by day 4 without any seerings at all, simply because of the vote record.
Yikes.
I'm guilty of having a ton of roleblocks in my games, particularly the Vampire game. The will still be around in the next iteration, but far fewer in number. If Infidel finds the time to do the coding, that is to say.
So Ebum could actually message Kime after he died? I thought that would have got me voted out at once considering Ebum gave me Ahavas name and then the mafia killed her.
I'm surprised it didn't get you voted out sooner. Ebum told kime that he pretty much knew that you and preda were snitches. It got preda killed, but then for some reason it never came back on you.
So the first message implicated Flarne and Preda, but in all honesty it also didn't cover much that luck couldn't have as well. Ebum was an obvious target for the mafia, and ahava often dies early.
That, and I had no real way of getting that information out safely so it just wasn't worth it.
Either way, turns out I should have listened ebum, my bad!
This was an interesting one to watch. My goal going in as a vanillager was to wait a few days and attempt to call in 5 favor .. but day 1'd! Was glad I died to save a special.
Switch Animal Crossing Friend Code: SW-5107-9276-1030
Island Name: Felinefine
The flaw is that unknowns when it comes to your own powers is just straight not fun. The only time I would consider doing it is in an inherently silly game like a Phalla Phalla with an RNG type role. Like I get how mathematically this was pretty and balanced but psychologically most people are going to be gunshy about using an unpredictable power.
This is true and something I am learning when it comes to phalla design. I admit I still don't fully understand it though. Either you are a vanillager with no power (standard) or in this game you are a vanillager with a power that requires networking and teamwork. So either you act like a normal vanillager or go deep into the game. Should be a win win for letting people play how they want. But instead it makes it worse.
Well, you can always just give the entire player population something that does nothing to the game at large.
Like busdrivers!
Ridiculous busdriver chains are the best thing.
KetBra as the adventurer-aligned ghost possessing kime the vigilante, trying to work out a Rend deal with the mafia because he was confident he was nigh-invulnerable due to the ghost's mechanics, and getting wrecked by a busdriven kill was my absolute favorite moment as a host thus far.
While the village not knowing what their power is until they use it might be balanced, but it isn't any fun. The village probably was overpowered, but the village got unlucky and played poorly. Rewarding lieutenants for finding a mafia when they're already probably a high Mafia target and networked by turning them into SKs just seems like s punch in the dick. People like being SKs when the game starts, not turning into one as their reward for helping the village win seems silly.
It was a fun game regardless and thanks for running it, there are just a few things I would have done differently.
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
The flaw is that unknowns when it comes to your own powers is just straight not fun. The only time I would consider doing it is in an inherently silly game like a Phalla Phalla with an RNG type role. Like I get how mathematically this was pretty and balanced but psychologically most people are going to be gunshy about using an unpredictable power.
This is true and something I am learning when it comes to phalla design. I admit I still don't fully understand it though. Either you are a vanillager with no power (standard) or in this game you are a vanillager with a power that requires networking and teamwork. So either you act like a normal vanillager or go deep into the game. Should be a win win for letting people play how they want. But instead it makes it worse.
Well, you can always just give the entire player population something that does nothing to the game at large.
Like busdrivers!
Ridiculous busdriver chains are the best thing.
KetBra as the adventurer-aligned ghost possessing kime the vigilante, trying to work out a Rend deal with the mafia because he was confident he was nigh-invulnerable due to the ghost's mechanics, and getting wrecked by a busdriven kill was my absolute favorite moment as a host thus far.
Oh god I'd blocked that whole experience out.
Thanks for that
Gizzy and I were so excited for you and then it turned into a total schadenfreude moment.
I was specifically trying to avoid an argument with you and you seemed intent on pulling me into one. Im sorry if you don't like my choice of words but I felt they were justified. Instead of countering that you weren't suspicious you focused on my word choice and tried to deconstruct that, to which I have no retaliation other than to get angry. I was very much trying to diffuse the situation rather than turn it into a big thing, which made you seem even more hostile by not letting it go.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that I was mafia and everything to do with having gotten into long forum arguments that turned into people bullying me.
If I offended you then I am sorry because that is literally the opposite of what I was trying to do.
I THOUGHT THE GAME WAS FUN! THANKS FOR HOSTING OBI!
It was a cool concept. The mafia seemed a little overpowered at first but we had a strong weakness in that the longer the game went the more powerful the village got (which is normal for a phalla) seeing the village specials make them seem a tad overpowered as well so maybe depowering on both sides would have done some good.
The game ended up being very swingy which isn't fun. We had the game won on day 4 except for then the vote shifted just right and the village always had one more member than us. Then our powers weren't going off and WE RAN OUT OF MAFIA KILLS PEOPLE! The one power the mafia can rely on was extremely limited to us this game. Which honestly kind of sucks.
Having a game on vote records should probably be a little more vanilla.
Were there any cases of someone trying to seer and unintentionally doing a vig kill instead? I thought I had 3 favor the night I died, so I tried to seer Langly -- who died from a vig kill. So really, my question is, did I accidentally kill Langly? I spent the last couple days speculating that the snitches had the ability to raise the villages favor somehow just to screw with them.
Same thing happened to me. I expected to seer shalmelo, not kill him. Not sure where my extra favor came from.
Fun game obi! Thanks for running it and don't let people having problems with your overly complex games stop you from running them and experimenting. Obiphalla are awesome and to date some of my favorite games, personally.
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Up until I died and saw the rest of the game.
Which I'll blame on @Flarne.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
I guess I'm both happy and apologetic then?
Btw, I'm two-for-two with you when it comes to hosting games that seem to generally piss off and annoy you.
So yeah...
Overall though, it does seem like you overstretched a bit Obi, and in trying to balance the abilities you gave the specials, you added more powerful and frustrating counter-measures on the opposite side.
Maybe it could have just been a simpler game?
Didn't you do the Hot Potato game?
Obiphalla
From the roleblocker perspective: I made something not happen!
From the roleblocked perspective: my cool thing didn't happen!
Making things fail to happen is not fun and having your power fail is also not fun. 100% of the time I want to roleblock someone as a villager I'd rather vote them out instead.
The funny thing is, 2nd night I was forced to talk to someone just in case someone killed me.
I was guarding because I couldn't lose Favor, and just in case Drez was village and I died, I was going to talk to someone who had been in the last minute scramble for the vote the previous night.
Wound up pretty much randomly talking to Lucedes, but I was actually planning on talking to you, ahava.
And then Drez wasn't mafia, and Lucedes never got close enough to being confirmed, but she and capfalcon were fighting for the last place on my mafia list.
Yeah.
I remember walking away from hosting that game thinking "welp, of all the players I have ever annoyed/pissed off with the games I've hosted, this discrider guy probably wants to be their leader now."
dammit good point
edit: but wait, how is that different from guardingand stopping a vig?
Oh yeah.
I had forgotten about that whole "Make plan to save the seer, act on poorly written role/clarification/whatever it was, accidentally kill seer" thing.
The whole "creating a bro network that wins the game" thing sort of over-ruled that.
I have to agree with ebum.
But there are two differences:
1) The biggest is: "All of your actions fail tonight" is vastly different from "your actions against this person failed tonight." One suggests you still have some agency - your choice of target is a factor of your success. One is just kind of bullshit and annoying.
2) Vigilante and guardian are straightforward staples mafia, right? It certainly sucks to be a vig who can't hit a desired target, but that's all it is and it doesn't have the same frustrating permanence that roleblocking seems to have.
Well, you can always just give the entire player population something that does nothing to the game at large.
Like busdrivers!
Roleblock: you do not get to do a thing!
Guard: I would like this person to keep doing things!
Obviously is still sucks for the person who tried to kill the guarded person, but it feels way more active and useful to guard someone. Stronger for the village, too for obvious reasons.
I was on the knife-edge of coloring Cap green as well in that last vote summary. I was sure once Lucedes bailed on Day 5.
It was the rest of the mafia I had no certainty about!
1) Gaining too much favor too quickly.
2) Not being able to rely on how much Favor I had, therefore potentially enabling me to guard or kill someone I didn't intend to guard or kill.
I don't know how the other lieutenants acted every night but I was a little afraid to attempt to use my power every night.
Ridiculous busdriver chains are the best thing.
KetBra as the adventurer-aligned ghost possessing kime the vigilante, trying to work out a Rend deal with the mafia because he was confident he was nigh-invulnerable due to the ghost's mechanics, and getting wrecked by a busdriven kill was my absolute favorite moment as a host thus far.
Yeah, this is exactly why I would consider this a noble failed experiment. #2 in particular had to be solved. I think I'd scrap the lieutenants as they exist and give them boss power #2 and taking that away from the boss. That might preserve enough of our focus on the vote record while keeping at least a little information on what power you were actually using in the game.
Also @Bedlam I'm not a jerk
@CesareB - I owe you an apology.
Drez, FYI, I wasn't offended by your conversation about me reading as a dead person.
Thanks Obi. Good concept. I think village had to be a lot more rules abusey than they were ultimately willing/able to be to win, but thems the breaks.
fuck off. if you're not going to be cordial in the game you could at least try after the game is over. if your intention in these games is to just be overly mean about everything you do, don't play. the whole point is that it's a social party game.
I may have misjudged.
Yikes.
I'm guilty of having a ton of roleblocks in my games, particularly the Vampire game. The will still be around in the next iteration, but far fewer in number. If Infidel finds the time to do the coding, that is to say.
So the first message implicated Flarne and Preda, but in all honesty it also didn't cover much that luck couldn't have as well. Ebum was an obvious target for the mafia, and ahava often dies early.
That, and I had no real way of getting that information out safely so it just wasn't worth it.
Either way, turns out I should have listened ebum, my bad!
Thanks for running Obi! I enjoyed it
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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Island Name: Felinefine
Oh god I'd blocked that whole experience out.
Thanks for that
I hope your wife is feeling better
Island Name: Felinefine
While the village not knowing what their power is until they use it might be balanced, but it isn't any fun. The village probably was overpowered, but the village got unlucky and played poorly. Rewarding lieutenants for finding a mafia when they're already probably a high Mafia target and networked by turning them into SKs just seems like s punch in the dick. People like being SKs when the game starts, not turning into one as their reward for helping the village win seems silly.
It was a fun game regardless and thanks for running it, there are just a few things I would have done differently.
Gizzy and I were so excited for you and then it turned into a total schadenfreude moment.
I was specifically trying to avoid an argument with you and you seemed intent on pulling me into one. Im sorry if you don't like my choice of words but I felt they were justified. Instead of countering that you weren't suspicious you focused on my word choice and tried to deconstruct that, to which I have no retaliation other than to get angry. I was very much trying to diffuse the situation rather than turn it into a big thing, which made you seem even more hostile by not letting it go.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that I was mafia and everything to do with having gotten into long forum arguments that turned into people bullying me.
If I offended you then I am sorry because that is literally the opposite of what I was trying to do.
It was a cool concept. The mafia seemed a little overpowered at first but we had a strong weakness in that the longer the game went the more powerful the village got (which is normal for a phalla) seeing the village specials make them seem a tad overpowered as well so maybe depowering on both sides would have done some good.
The game ended up being very swingy which isn't fun. We had the game won on day 4 except for then the vote shifted just right and the village always had one more member than us. Then our powers weren't going off and WE RAN OUT OF MAFIA KILLS PEOPLE! The one power the mafia can rely on was extremely limited to us this game. Which honestly kind of sucks.
Having a game on vote records should probably be a little more vanilla.
Also HoPo was awesome. Fuck the haters.
Appreciated! Can't believe people ignored my post :P
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
Same thing happened to me. I expected to seer shalmelo, not kill him. Not sure where my extra favor came from.
Fun game obi! Thanks for running it and don't let people having problems with your overly complex games stop you from running them and experimenting. Obiphalla are awesome and to date some of my favorite games, personally.