Ok, I decided I didn't want to wait any longer and just played through to the end of the game, it's not like there's any other major story beats in between.
This game is basically a hot mess, but one where it's both really hot, and really a mess. The story is intriguing and interesting, but ultimately feels like it doesn't know what story it's telling. The gameplay is interesting, complex, customizable, but ultimately there's only a few things that are really useful. I don't want to say it's potential wasted, but I'll say it's potential not fully realized. I'd be really interested to see a direct sequel though.
Ultimately the ending just left me kind of confused. Delita seemed like a major part of the story at the beginning, but ultimately became just a side plot - but one that I don't think I fully understand? I'm not sure how he became king, or what the last bit about Ovelia trying to stab him is supposed to show. It seems like I'm missing something about it.
Ultimately I'm glad I played through it, but I'm glad it's done, and I don't think I'd ever play it again. This kind of reminds me of the old sierra games from the 80's - I'd recommend them, as long as you keep a guide VERY handy.
Thanks to everyone here who put up with my questions and snarky remarks. I always enjoy these group playthroughs even if I don't seem to enjoy the game.
Delita kills his way through the ranks of Goltanna's army, and eventually offs Goltana himself. He's in command of the army, and he marries Ovelia, making himself King in the process. Without Larg or Goltanna around to contest things, and with the common folk already tired of war, he encounters no meaningful opposition.
Ovelia realizes that his earlier speech about making a kingdom worthy of her was either feigned, or any sincerity forgotten. When he brings her flowers, she knifes him. He counter-knifes her. She dies, but he lives. He goes on to have a long and peaceful rule.
Furthermore, Olan was burned at the stake for heresy, but his descendant Alazlam (the guy telling the story - you remember the framing device for the whole game, right?) discovers his papers and brings them to the public decades later.
Ok, I decided I didn't want to wait any longer and just played through to the end of the game, it's not like there's any other major story beats in between.
This game is basically a hot mess, but one where it's both really hot, and really a mess. The story is intriguing and interesting, but ultimately feels like it doesn't know what story it's telling. The gameplay is interesting, complex, customizable, but ultimately there's only a few things that are really useful. I don't want to say it's potential wasted, but I'll say it's potential not fully realized. I'd be really interested to see a direct sequel though.
Ultimately the ending just left me kind of confused. Delita seemed like a major part of the story at the beginning, but ultimately became just a side plot - but one that I don't think I fully understand? I'm not sure how he became king, or what the last bit about Ovelia trying to stab him is supposed to show. It seems like I'm missing something about it.
Ultimately I'm glad I played through it, but I'm glad it's done, and I don't think I'd ever play it again. This kind of reminds me of the old sierra games from the 80's - I'd recommend them, as long as you keep a guide VERY handy.
Thanks to everyone here who put up with my questions and snarky remarks. I always enjoy these group playthroughs even if I don't seem to enjoy the game.
How I interpreted Delita's character (ending spoilers)
Delita is one of my favorite foils in video game stories. Not least because of how unique his relationship with the protagonist is; rather than becoming Ramza's steadfast ally or tragic enemy, he just sort of goes down his own path, always a cordial-yet-distant friend. After all, he and Ramza want the same thing: to right society's various injustices. They just have different ways of going about it.
Ramza is the more heroic type, challenging evil head-on whenever he encounters it. From the all-powerful church to his own brother, he does everything in his power to stop corrupt rulers from completing their various schemes, consequences be damned. As a result, he is cast out from society, and even years after he saves the world his name is dragged through the mud.
Delita, on the other hand, adopts an incredibly cynical worldview after his sister dies. He decides the only way he can enact real change is from the top, and he doesn't care what it takes to get there. Delita lies, manipulates, murders, and generally plays the political game as nastily as anyone ever has. And in the end, he wins. Delita becomes king, and if the narrator guy is to be believed, he goes down in history as a pretty good one.
And yet, in Delita's final scene, after he's killed the last person who might have been able to contest his authority, he says something like:
"What did you get, Ramza? I..." [trails off, end scene]
It's kind of ambiguous, but I think Delita realizes that in spite of all his success and the good he can finally do, he feels no satisfaction. At the moment of his ultimate, yet tainted, victory, Delita wishes he had chosen Ramza's virtuous path instead. It's a pretty poignant conclusion, in my opinion at least.
The thing though, is that it feels a false choice between Ramza's path and Delita's. Delita's goal was to actually change the paradigm of society. Ramza's goal was not do anything he didn't like, and to save his sister. It's not like Ramza and Delita were ever in conflict, it felt more like Delita decided to play the game, and Ramza didn't. I guess that's why it feels hard for me to judge Ramza's ending, he seems vaguely unsatisfied, but there's no other context given. But his goal was never to feel good about himself, it was to effect change. Did he succeed? If so, then it seems he's the real hero here.
I mean yes, Ramza beat St. Ajora, who was (I guess) a threat of some kind, but the same conflicts and problems that he rebelled against at the start of the story are still there, and he didn't really change that. I really wouldn't call Ramza's path more virtuous, it's just a completely different path with a different end point.
The thing though, is that it feels a false choice between Ramza's path and Delita's. Delita's goal was to actually change the paradigm of society. Ramza's goal was not do anything he didn't like, and to save his sister. It's not like Ramza and Delita were ever in conflict, it felt more like Delita decided to play the game, and Ramza didn't. I guess that's why it feels hard for me to judge Ramza's ending, he seems vaguely unsatisfied, but there's no other context given. But his goal was never to feel good about himself, it was to effect change. Did he succeed? If so, then it seems he's the real hero here.
I mean yes, Ramza beat St. Ajora, who was (I guess) a threat of some kind, but the same conflicts and problems that he rebelled against at the start of the story are still there, and he didn't really change that. I really wouldn't call Ramza's path more virtuous, it's just a completely different path with a different end point.
They both worked towards that goal, Delita through political moving and backstabbing, and Ramza cutting off the demons that were helping to manipulate the various powers that be into fighting each other, which caused all sorts of grief/famine/loss of life for all the people living under the church/royal houses
Of course you can make the argument that Ramza just sort of fell into that job, as after watching the horror that was him thinking he lost both his adoptive siblings and the just terribleness of the noble class (even of his own blood) he basically just gave up until the events of Orbone Monastery.
The thing though, is that it feels a false choice between Ramza's path and Delita's. Delita's goal was to actually change the paradigm of society. Ramza's goal was not do anything he didn't like, and to save his sister. It's not like Ramza and Delita were ever in conflict, it felt more like Delita decided to play the game, and Ramza didn't. I guess that's why it feels hard for me to judge Ramza's ending, he seems vaguely unsatisfied, but there's no other context given. But his goal was never to feel good about himself, it was to effect change. Did he succeed? If so, then it seems he's the real hero here.
I mean yes, Ramza beat St. Ajora, who was (I guess) a threat of some kind, but the same conflicts and problems that he rebelled against at the start of the story are still there, and he didn't really change that. I really wouldn't call Ramza's path more virtuous, it's just a completely different path with a different end point.
They both worked towards that goal, Delita through political moving and backstabbing, and Ramza cutting off the demons that were helping to manipulate the various powers that be into fighting each other, which caused all sorts of grief/famine/loss of life for all the people living under the church/royal houses
Of course you can make the argument that Ramza just sort of fell into that job, as after watching the horror that was him thinking he lost both his adoptive siblings and the just terribleness of the noble class (even of his own blood) he basically just gave up until the events of Orbone Monastery.
I guess the thing is that Ramza and Delita both feel like protagonists of different stories. Delita was the protagonist of a more game of thronesish or house of cards type story, whereas Ramza was the protagonist of more of a traditional FF type story, and Ramza was just more correct about what type of story it was. Which isn't necessarily wrong or anything, I just don't really feel that Ramza's choice was better or more virtuous or anything. If there were no demons and the problems were just people, then Delita would have been the better choice.
The thing though, is that it feels a false choice between Ramza's path and Delita's. Delita's goal was to actually change the paradigm of society. Ramza's goal was not do anything he didn't like, and to save his sister. It's not like Ramza and Delita were ever in conflict, it felt more like Delita decided to play the game, and Ramza didn't. I guess that's why it feels hard for me to judge Ramza's ending, he seems vaguely unsatisfied, but there's no other context given. But his goal was never to feel good about himself, it was to effect change. Did he succeed? If so, then it seems he's the real hero here.
I mean yes, Ramza beat St. Ajora, who was (I guess) a threat of some kind, but the same conflicts and problems that he rebelled against at the start of the story are still there, and he didn't really change that. I really wouldn't call Ramza's path more virtuous, it's just a completely different path with a different end point.
They both worked towards that goal, Delita through political moving and backstabbing, and Ramza cutting off the demons that were helping to manipulate the various powers that be into fighting each other, which caused all sorts of grief/famine/loss of life for all the people living under the church/royal houses
Of course you can make the argument that Ramza just sort of fell into that job, as after watching the horror that was him thinking he lost both his adoptive siblings and the just terribleness of the noble class (even of his own blood) he basically just gave up until the events of Orbone Monastery.
I guess the thing is that Ramza and Delita both feel like protagonists of different stories. Delita was the protagonist of a more game of thronesish or house of cards type story, whereas Ramza was the protagonist of more of a traditional FF type story, and Ramza was just more correct about what type of story it was. Which isn't necessarily wrong or anything, I just don't really feel that Ramza's choice was better or more virtuous or anything. If there were no demons and the problems were just people, then Delita would have been the better choice.
i think ultimately delita became what he despised, after a fashion
but I don't disagree they were both protagonists of different stories, that's a good way to put it
chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
Just finished myself.
Gotta agree. Delitia's plot and Ramza's plot just split towards the end with the "Surprise! It was demons." plotline taking more and more of the fore. It's like the game got antsy with all the politics and decided to go with good old "Church is evil, demons are behind everything, stab a major religious figure until everything sorts itself out."
And that sucks! I couldn't keep track of everything in the politics plot, but it was interesting. Delita and Ramza had some background together that let them play nicely off each other, Ramza's commitment to the idea that Delita was, basically, a good person nicely highlighted how much of a fucker you have to be to play the game of thrones, and there were a lot of "Okay, he's being a fucker, but maybe that's the best play available" moments. It had something going on you can't get in every single Jurp out there.
And then, in the end, pfft. Demons, the hero dies but not really, ride off into the sunset, fin.
I mean, yes. I love Fire Emblem Awakening's endgame, and that has a much worse plot overall, but come the final mission it knows what it's about. It's about you and your friends fucking up evil's shit. And when the last mission comes, there's dialog for Your Dudes to bring things home, and whichever ending you get, it finishes off with a bit to bring it all home that these characters care about each other. Sure, it's just as boilerplate, but it plays to the game's strengths.
Here, you stop giving a damn about who's screwing over who since the demons are behind every dickhole still breathing. Fuck up their shit, and that's that. Keeping track of the various factions doesn't mean much.
I'm sure there would be some way to really bring Delita and Ramza's plotlines together in the end for something satisfying, but the game didn't manage it, and that's a shame.
Also, the final boss was a total pushover. I mean, wow.
Also beat the game today, decided to skip Dark Dungeon and just blow through the last five story missions.
Man, I love the music in this game. If anything's aged perfectly, its the soundtrack.
If anything, I wish we could have had a sequel/prequel/idk that covered Delita/Orlan/Balmafula's story a bit. We only see bits and pieces in Chapter 2/3/4, and Delita makes a huge step up in the world between the end of Chapter 1 and 2 that the game breezes by.
Delita is referred to as "Haeralis the Brave" in the description of an accessory found in Leá Monde. Although the reference is offhand and short, the choice of the adjective "Brave" may indicate that King Delita is still considered a hero in Vagrant Story's region and era.
Damn, I got so derailed on this run. I got to week 5 early, waited for the schedule to catch up, and then somehow never got around to playing again. I blitzed through the end of week 8 yesterday, so I might catch up for the end! Maybe.
The monastery was way more bullshit than I remembered. If Ramza hadn't unlocked the ninja class literally one fight before the 1v1 I think I would have been done for. And my first attempt on the rooftop fight was literally unwinnable due to AI choices (Ramza was insta-killed by one assassin and the other one one-shotted the NPC). At least watching a guy get casually chucked off a roof is still fun!
I'm starting to really regret swapping out my fifth generic for Agrias. I'm getting pretty bored with my party, but the other four characters are kind of married to their roles at this point and Agrias still doesn't have crap for job levels in anything. I don't really have that jack-of-all-trades slot to play around with anymore, and that character is ten levels behind by now.
Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
Damn, I got so derailed on this run. I got to week 5 early, waited for the schedule to catch up, and then somehow never got around to playing again. I blitzed through the end of week 8 yesterday, so I might catch up for the end! Maybe.
The monastery was way more bullshit than I remembered. If Ramza hadn't unlocked the ninja class literally one fight before the 1v1 I think I would have been done for. And my first attempt on the rooftop fight was literally unwinnable due to AI choices (Ramza was insta-killed by one assassin and the other one one-shotted the NPC). At least watching a guy get casually chucked off a roof is still fun!
I'm starting to really regret swapping out my fifth generic for Agrias. I'm getting pretty bored with my party, but the other four characters are kind of married to their roles at this point and Agrias still doesn't have crap for job levels in anything. I don't really have that jack-of-all-trades slot to play around with anymore, and that character is ten levels behind by now.
Agrias gets pretty useful abilities overall. And if you get her some time as a ninja, she can stab people really good.
She's not as gamebreaking as Cid, but if you treat her right, she'll do you right.
Agrias gets pretty useful abilities overall. And if you get her some time as a ninja, she can stab people really good.
She's not as gamebreaking as Cid, but if you treat her right, she'll do you right.
Once she's got Dual Wield, you can equip a flail in her left hand and a sword in her right - the sword will let her use sword skills, and it will use the high damage of the flail.
Posts
Ultimately the ending just left me kind of confused. Delita seemed like a major part of the story at the beginning, but ultimately became just a side plot - but one that I don't think I fully understand? I'm not sure how he became king, or what the last bit about Ovelia trying to stab him is supposed to show. It seems like I'm missing something about it.
Ultimately I'm glad I played through it, but I'm glad it's done, and I don't think I'd ever play it again. This kind of reminds me of the old sierra games from the 80's - I'd recommend them, as long as you keep a guide VERY handy.
Thanks to everyone here who put up with my questions and snarky remarks. I always enjoy these group playthroughs even if I don't seem to enjoy the game.
Ovelia realizes that his earlier speech about making a kingdom worthy of her was either feigned, or any sincerity forgotten. When he brings her flowers, she knifes him. He counter-knifes her. She dies, but he lives. He goes on to have a long and peaceful rule.
Furthermore, Olan was burned at the stake for heresy, but his descendant Alazlam (the guy telling the story - you remember the framing device for the whole game, right?) discovers his papers and brings them to the public decades later.
How I interpreted Delita's character (ending spoilers)
Ramza is the more heroic type, challenging evil head-on whenever he encounters it. From the all-powerful church to his own brother, he does everything in his power to stop corrupt rulers from completing their various schemes, consequences be damned. As a result, he is cast out from society, and even years after he saves the world his name is dragged through the mud.
Delita, on the other hand, adopts an incredibly cynical worldview after his sister dies. He decides the only way he can enact real change is from the top, and he doesn't care what it takes to get there. Delita lies, manipulates, murders, and generally plays the political game as nastily as anyone ever has. And in the end, he wins. Delita becomes king, and if the narrator guy is to be believed, he goes down in history as a pretty good one.
And yet, in Delita's final scene, after he's killed the last person who might have been able to contest his authority, he says something like:
"What did you get, Ramza? I..." [trails off, end scene]
It's kind of ambiguous, but I think Delita realizes that in spite of all his success and the good he can finally do, he feels no satisfaction. At the moment of his ultimate, yet tainted, victory, Delita wishes he had chosen Ramza's virtuous path instead. It's a pretty poignant conclusion, in my opinion at least.
I mean yes, Ramza beat St. Ajora, who was (I guess) a threat of some kind, but the same conflicts and problems that he rebelled against at the start of the story are still there, and he didn't really change that. I really wouldn't call Ramza's path more virtuous, it's just a completely different path with a different end point.
Of course you can make the argument that Ramza just sort of fell into that job, as after watching the horror that was him thinking he lost both his adoptive siblings and the just terribleness of the noble class (even of his own blood) he basically just gave up until the events of Orbone Monastery.
but I don't disagree they were both protagonists of different stories, that's a good way to put it
And that sucks! I couldn't keep track of everything in the politics plot, but it was interesting. Delita and Ramza had some background together that let them play nicely off each other, Ramza's commitment to the idea that Delita was, basically, a good person nicely highlighted how much of a fucker you have to be to play the game of thrones, and there were a lot of "Okay, he's being a fucker, but maybe that's the best play available" moments. It had something going on you can't get in every single Jurp out there.
And then, in the end, pfft. Demons, the hero dies but not really, ride off into the sunset, fin.
I mean, yes. I love Fire Emblem Awakening's endgame, and that has a much worse plot overall, but come the final mission it knows what it's about. It's about you and your friends fucking up evil's shit. And when the last mission comes, there's dialog for Your Dudes to bring things home, and whichever ending you get, it finishes off with a bit to bring it all home that these characters care about each other. Sure, it's just as boilerplate, but it plays to the game's strengths.
Here, you stop giving a damn about who's screwing over who since the demons are behind every dickhole still breathing. Fuck up their shit, and that's that. Keeping track of the various factions doesn't mean much.
I'm sure there would be some way to really bring Delita and Ramza's plotlines together in the end for something satisfying, but the game didn't manage it, and that's a shame.
Also, the final boss was a total pushover. I mean, wow.
Why I fear the ocean.
Man, I love the music in this game. If anything's aged perfectly, its the soundtrack.
If anything, I wish we could have had a sequel/prequel/idk that covered Delita/Orlan/Balmafula's story a bit. We only see bits and pieces in Chapter 2/3/4, and Delita makes a huge step up in the world between the end of Chapter 1 and 2 that the game breezes by.
The monastery was way more bullshit than I remembered. If Ramza hadn't unlocked the ninja class literally one fight before the 1v1 I think I would have been done for. And my first attempt on the rooftop fight was literally unwinnable due to AI choices (Ramza was insta-killed by one assassin and the other one one-shotted the NPC). At least watching a guy get casually chucked off a roof is still fun!
I'm starting to really regret swapping out my fifth generic for Agrias. I'm getting pretty bored with my party, but the other four characters are kind of married to their roles at this point and Agrias still doesn't have crap for job levels in anything. I don't really have that jack-of-all-trades slot to play around with anymore, and that character is ten levels behind by now.
Agrias gets pretty useful abilities overall. And if you get her some time as a ninja, she can stab people really good.
She's not as gamebreaking as Cid, but if you treat her right, she'll do you right.
Why I fear the ocean.
Once she's got Dual Wield, you can equip a flail in her left hand and a sword in her right - the sword will let her use sword skills, and it will use the high damage of the flail.